NZeder's Datsun 260z Build Thread [Archive]

nzeder

12-04-2013, 11:28 AM

Right Steve suggested I start a build thread so here goes.

I have been a big Datsun Z fan for years, I have owned 7 over the last 20 years. I currently have 2 one is the first Datsun Z car I purchased when 21 years of age the other one is what this build thread is about (but if others want to see the road car/modified build I could also talk about that too)

Those that know me know that I don't spend a lot of time out in the shed working on my zeds :( no excuses really I need just pull finger and get them done.

I first got into racing a Datsun 240z after doing some club stuff with my road Datsun 260z (2 seater - same body shape as the 240z - most think of the 260z as the 2+2 but Nissan/Datsun did make them in 2 seater version also but they were produced in much smaller numbers that 240z so are actually a rarer car).

So I purchased a 1972 Datsun 240z that was already setup as track car - with a full cage (not strut to strut) but it was an Automatic - it was a good way to learn mind you as gear changes were few and far between and limited engine braking so you had to learn to brake with well the brakes alone.

Anyway fast forward a few years and a few other zed passed into and out of the garage I picked up a NZ New Jan 1974 Datsun 260z that was getting built up as a targa car.

This how it looked when I got it home.
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260z-10.jpg

The issues the car when purchased.
1. The cage was built in 2004/5 (purchase the car in 2011) and log book and homologation for the cage had not been applied for - however the cage builder had the details to get this sorted. I was very lucky that even though the rules had changed during this time the owner at the time insisted the main hoop be the large size has he thought he might take the car to Australia for a Targa event and CAMS required the larger hoop when NZ did not at the time.
2. Classic racing is what I want to do so a number of the mods done to the car needed to be undone to get to T&C compliant.
3. The cage was already painted and the cage builder could not find the photos he took back in 2004/5 as he had changed computers twice since then and one was forced after a crash - so the paint had to come off to get photos.
4. Some parts had gone missing during it time at the different shops (fabricator, panel/paint etc)

Right so some pictures of the car as it was in the fabricator shop (I knew of the car for years and knew the owner via info sharing of my zed car knowledge)
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260z-3.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260z-4.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260z-5.jpg

nzeder

12-04-2013, 11:51 AM

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260z-6.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260z-7.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260z-8.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260z-9.jpg
another shot of it at home (well my parents place at the time of purchased, and still today it is at my retired parents house so Dad has something to do - ie do little jobs on the car to get it more together)
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260z-11.jpg

Some might notice the non standard engine between the struts - this car was fitted with a RB30DE hybrid engine made up from a Nissan/Holden RB30 bottom end and RB26 (GTR) cylinder head with the RB26 ITB setup - ECU was an Autronics unit. It was setup as NA with some amazing custom headers.

Brake were Wilwood front and rear and rims Genuine Minilites in 15x8 with 225/50/15

nzeder

12-04-2013, 11:58 AM

First task was to sort out what was there and what was not.

Missing
windows regulators
windscreen and windscreen bright work
stock engine/gearbox

nzeder

12-04-2013, 12:04 PM

The first task Dad I tackled was the missing windows regulators - now that was fun

Now as it is a early 260z the windows regulators are unique to the early 260z and none could be found on trademe, through member, Z Spares, or evilbay, alternatives need to be sort. I had some 240z regulators but it turns out the early 260z 2 seater doors might share the same window, lock/latch and window frame as the 240z the regulators are very different. The 260z items put the crank about 30mm further forward and the door does not have the stamped regulator protrusion like the 240z so they would not work. I also had some later 260z 2 seater/2+2 window regulators (the later 2 seaters use the same regulators as the 2+2). These mount to the glass via a different frame setup - however the scissor arms were the same size/location/arc. So the later 260z items were modified and new shower door rollers fitted on the ends replacing the later 260z mounting arms/tracks. Windows were finally sorted then 2 weeks later some early 260z regulators show up on trademe...bugger and they are still there too. Never mind door modified for later items now (new mounting holes drilled and one hole enlarged)

I will find a pic of the difference and post/update this post later.

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/240zwindowregulator001.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/240zwindowregulator002.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260zwindowregulator001.jpg
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/260zwindowregulator002.jpg

nzeder

12-04-2013, 12:12 PM

Next on the agenda was log book and cage homologation - so the paint was removed from the cage and photos taken, paper work completed by the cage builder and the application was send it.

About 2 weeks later all approved and good. So that was later 2011 - not a lot happened after that other than painting the cage again.

More to follow later on.

nzeder

12-04-2013, 12:32 PM

The bumpers that came with the car were Datsun 240z times which some might not know mount differently on the rear of the Datsun 260z. The front was easy as they are the same, that went on with ease. The rear....well another issue that had to be addressed. As luck would have it I already had some 260z rear bumper brackets for the road car so these could be copied and the 240z rear bumper fitted......wrong....turns out the 240z rear bumper might look like a 260z 2 seater rear bumper but where the brackets mounts in a slightly different location to the 260z 2 seater bumper so the replica mounts had to be modified again....

Now we had windows fitted and working with later regulators, bumpers fitted, rear window in, towing hooks painted red and installed, gutter trim/bright work fitted - it is now starting to look more like a zed should. Also got the door locks sorted. Word of advice make sure when you assemble the locks the correct length screws go in the correct location who ever partly assembled the car did not know of check this and the door would open and close fine just not lock as one of the screws was too long and stop the lock rod from moving correctly.

With the original power train that came with the car sold some good old L Gata needed to be sourced given I have sold my last L28 to Karl aka limezed and 2 before that to Earl Cruickshank for his Silver Datsun 240z. I did however get a L28 F54/N42 combo with the car. So the head is going to be used on rebuild later and the F54 was swapped for another N42 head.

As I am trying to be true to period correctness with the car I wanted to use N42/N42 head and block combo's as the N42 block was first available in 1975 unlike the F54 that did not come about until 1981-82.

Another Datsun Z club member was moving away from L28 power plants so a road trip was in order to collect 2 x N42/N42 long blocks, one from Hamilton the other from Rotorua. One of these engines will be dropped in to the car from the get go and I will run with that until I rebuild another engine ready for a swap over. I also managed to secure another N42 block/bottom end to go with the head I picked from the F54 swap.

So once again my garage/storage area went from 3 x L28 to 0 then back to 3 x L28 again.

Next was carbs - I needed some triples and a triple intake manifold as all my others that I had from years gone past (back in the 90's) had moved on to grace the engine bays of other zeds (either ones I owned, or other Datsun Z club member cars). More $$ was spend on importing a Cannon intake manifold and a set of triple Mikuni 44phh the correct carbs listed on the sports option catalogue for the S30Z.

Here are some images of the carbs - another update later. (click on these little images to see them larger)
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/thumbs/thumbs_carbs1.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/carbs1.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/thumbs/thumbs_carbs2.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/73_260z/carbs2.jpg)

Next installment brakes.

Steve Holmes

12-04-2013, 10:58 PM

Wow, this thread is awesome! Thanks heaps, I'm really enjoying the pics and info.

librules

12-04-2013, 11:09 PM

Wow, this thread is awesome! Thanks heaps, I'm really enjoying the pics and info.

Here, here. As an eternal Zed fan (and having had one many moons ago) I look forward to the ongoing story.22853

Hopefully attached is a photo from a Japanese classic car show in Melbourne last weekend. Nice and clean.....

nzeder

12-04-2013, 11:19 PM

I had a set of those EFI Hardware ITB that I was going to install on my other Datsun 260z - they have since moved on (needed more $$ for this project) so now they are in the engine bay of a Targa Datsun 240z here in NZ - here is pic of them when I had them mounted up to my RB26 intake manifold via some custom adaptors made - these will now be used to run the road car on triple DCOE type carbs - well Mikuni 40phh as the road car does not need 44/45mm carbs.

Again click on the small image to see the larger image
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/induction/thumbs/thumbs_dcoe-rb26-adaptor5.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/induction/dcoe-rb26-adaptor5.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/induction/thumbs/thumbs_dcoe-rb26-adaptor8.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/induction/dcoe-rb26-adaptor8.jpg)

nzeder

12-05-2013, 11:42 AM

Right I said I was going to talk about the brakes next - well I will get there but first some history on the racing of the Nissan/Datsun S30 that I already knew or found more out about long the way.

This part of the project took me a bit of time - most of that was looking over the books, magazines, interweb and emailing contacts all around the world to learn even more about what was used in period (I knew a good amount already but you can never know too much)

I already new the FIA homologation number for the Datsun 240z so a copy of this was sort. I also acquired as many parts catalogues as I could. Given the Datsun Z cars racing history it was obvious Nissan/Datsun had racing in mind when this car was designed/released to the market.

I know this is build thread but some might be interested to know of some of models sold in the home market of Japan.

When Nissan decided to export cars to other international markets they did not want to damage the Nissan brand if the take up in the foreign markets was not as expected. So they turned to their earlier name of Datsun for the export brand.

So while the Datsun 240z was sold international internal Nissan was marketing the Fairlady Z (based on the same S30 chassis platform). However the Nissan engineers decided they would take the S20 engine and install this into the Fairlady Z also. The S20 engine was like a BDA to a Ford Escort. After the merger between Prince and Nissan, Nissan acquired the Skyline brand. Prince had a strong focus on racing and some might recall the S54B aka Prince/Nissan Skyline GTB that raced locally here in NZ in the late 60's by Carlos Neate. A bit of info for those interested is that Prince when they decided to extend the length of the 4 cylinder Skyline to install the new G7 OHC 6 cylinder and go racing they wanted to produce large number Skyline GT-B with triple weber DOCE 18 carbs, 5spd and LSD in a few months to get the paper work in to the FIA ASAP for the coming 1964 season. However weber could supply the number of carbs required so the maximum was order and 100 cars were manufactured for homologation purposes. A total of 500 GT-B were produced during the production and most of those were exported to Australia and New Zealand (I would really love one of these but today they are hens teeth - if you know of one for sale let me know) - so where was I that's right the S20 engine

The Prince engineers developed the S20 engine which was based on the GR8 DOHC that was used on the Prince R380 LeManns type sports car. These new S20 engines were installed in the new Skyline KPGC10 GT-R in 1969 (and the first car globally to carry the GT-R badge) and also the Nissan Fairlady Z432 and Z432-R. Again due to supply issue webers were used on the first few runs of the S20 engines but then Nissan started to source the locally made Mikuni/Solex carburetors.

Here are pics of the GR8 Prince 1996cc DOHC 6 cylinder engine
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Prince_GR8_engine_Nissan_Engine_Museum.jpg/719px-Prince_GR8_engine_Nissan_Engine_Museum.jpg

And here is a pic of the S20 engine 1988cc DOHC 4 valve 6 cylinder engine
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/1969_Nissan_S20_engine_left.jpg/655px-1969_Nissan_S20_engine_left.jpg

Here is an image of the engine bay of the factory produced Nissan Fairlady Z432
http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/attachments/open-general-discussions/27311d1230238423-look-inside-japans-secret-auto-museum-112_0708_52z-1971_nissan_fairlady_z432-engine_bay_view.jpg

So the Prince Skyline Engineers were not happy that Nissan was installing their Skyline race engine into the S30 (chassis code for the Datsun 240z/260z/280z and Fairlady Z range of cars) as it was soon to compete against their GT-R on the track in the coming 1970 season. You see the Skyline GT-R was heading towards a track record that has not yet been matched by any marque/make in Japan. This record has made the first Skyline GT-R a legend in Japan (I would really love one of these but I don't have spare 150K to 200K to purchase one) 50 wins from 50 start.

Approximately 480 of the Z432 were build including a smaller number of Z432-R. The Z432-R were again a JDM model only and were sold to the general public - aimed at races teams. The Z432-R (internal code name PS30-SB - all Z432 had the chassis code PS30, Datsun 240z were HS30, 260z RS30 and the Fairlady Z was just a S30 - there is more to that but this is not the place) were built and sold as the homologation special with FRP bonnet, lexan windows, no heater, no clock, cut down loom and other parts Nissan wanted to homologate.

While these S20 power cars were racing around the track in Japan the like of Pete Brock (not the Ozzie but the American of Daytona Cobra fame) was heading up the BRE team and push the other marques around the tracks of America with the L24 power export S30 aka Datsun 240z. With BRE providing feedback to Japan and Japan starting to support the L Gata (L6 or L Gata = L20a, L24, L26, L28) engine in racing and rallying, Nissan start to see the potential of the non cross flow OHC 6 cylinder engine and soon the Prince engineers were left to focus on their S20 power Skylines while the Nissan team moved focus to the L Gata (I believe there was a bit of internal politics and competition between the recent merged companies)

In the UK an ex broadspeed cylinder head guy Spyke Anderson was busy building and racing an ex works Rally Datsun 240z. His company modifying Datsun Z cars was called SAMURI (the correct spelling was already a registered trademark) His own race car was nick named SAM - however after a big crash the car was reshelled and renamed BIG SAM. BIG SAM still exists today with a number of the ex-works parts still on the car. BIG SAM was raced by very young and then unknown Win Percy after he paid £50 a race to drive it in the 1974 BARC Modified Sportscar Championship they went out and won the three-litre class, beating Porsches and TVRs on the way. I discovered that BIG SAM was fitted with CAN-AM brakes during this era of racing.

Anyway here are some pics of BIG SAM - as it was in the 70s and as it is today
http://www.racing70s.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/RoadSport/zed2sam.jpg
http://www.loxlee-loves-engines.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/big-sam-datsun-240z-race-car-519x345.jpg

nzeder

12-05-2013, 11:42 AM

also here are some other pics of the Datsun 240z/260z/280z racing in period spec (a number are in FIA GTS Group 4 spec aka how they entered Le Mans) - all these are genuine cars from the period as build in period
http://zhome.com/History/LeMansZ/1975LeMans240Z.jpg
http://zhome.com/History/LeMansZ/1976Number73.jpg
http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/larry_chen_speedhunters_canepa_240z-3.jpg
http://stephenedelstein.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/img_1199.jpg?w=620&h=465

So brakes - I said I was going to talk about brakes.....ok next post this time :)

nzeder

12-05-2013, 12:06 PM

During my research I found that Nissan had 4 pot calipers approved/homologated both front and rear with vented rotors front and rear. They also had approved/homologated solid rotors on the rear, drums on the rear, solid rotors on the front. It appeared that all combinations of these was used in period depending on the class or teams or budgets.

Nissan had 4 different brake packages available to customers in the USA - here are number of combinations used in period
1. The standard 2 pot Sumitomo calipers on non vented rotors up front and finned drums in the rear
2. 4 pot Sumitomo calipers up front in either vented or non vented setup, sliding caliper with solid rotor on the rear
3. 4 pot Sumitomo calipers up front and in the rear with vented rotors front and vented or solid rotors rear.
4. Lockheed 4 pots on vented rotors up front and Lockheed 2 pots on the rear with vented rotors
5. AirHeart/Hurst 4pots on vented rotors up front and AirHeart/Hurst 2 pots on the rear with vented rotors.

The 4 pots sumitomo calipers were listed on the sports option list which could be ordered with the car or after the car from the dealer network world wide - along with the LY cross flow head, triple mikuni carbs, extractors, larger/wider rims, race seat, LSD diffs, close ratio gear sets, suspension upgrades for circuit or rally, rally lights, electronic ignition, CDI ignition, rally clocks, bolt in cage, steering wheel, engine internal upgrades the list was very extensive. All these parts OEM from the factory.

Research showed 15" were used in period - this was determined via the brake rotor sizes that were offered. Given T&C rules allows for 1" over the factory spec rim which was 14" 15" rims is what the car was going to run and as luck had it the car was already fitted with 15x8" rims

The car was fitted with 12.2" Wilwood rotors and 4pot Wilwood calipers up front and 12.2" solid Wilwoods with 4 pots Wilwoods on the rear- these could have stayed on the car and would have saved me some $$ and time - but I decided to change them for a number of reasons.

nzeder

12-05-2013, 12:40 PM

I will now explain the reasons for the change.

1. The front setup required the use of small 4-5mm spacer for the rims to clear the calipers
2. The rears needed some locating rings to ID the rotors on to the zed axles correctly
3. The rears were using a modified Ford 9" drum in hat setup for the hand brake and it was very very cramped for space - so much so that rear of the wheel studs had been taken to with a grinder to clear the shoes.

None of this I liked - sure all was ok and within safe engineering tolerances - however I did not like the idea.

So at the time I had not yet sold the RB30DE engine - it was still sitting between the struts. So I thought if I have a modern engine why not run more modern Wilwood Radial mounted calipers. So that is what I did. I purchased some radial mounted Wilwood calipers for the front and the rear, some new 11.75" rotors that would give me a little more rim clearance (the 12.2" did fit but no wheel weights could go inside the rims infact the tape informing one of that was rubbing on the caliper - too tight for my liking) Also all my research showed 11.75 was the size that was used in period.

So a lot more time saving $$ and ordering parts from the USA as the calipers I required were a non stocked item here in NZ. I ordered the rotors and hats at the same time.

I think had a local fabricator assist with the mounting brackets and machining of the hats to ID onto the hubs up front and axles on the rear.

They looked great - clearance was no longer an issue and no drum in hat on the rear - a hydraulic handbrake is going to be used.

It was at this point that I decided that the grid I was going to run in, as they would allow such a hybrid of modern and oldschool parts, was not for me - the driving standard was not ideal and having a car that would cost me over 20K to reshell when it got hit by one of these modern Japanese (classic - yeah right) Honda Civic or Toyota Collora's.

So with the help of some friends Ray was kind enough to let me sign up for his grid (even though I still don't have running car - I will still be attending as pit bitch for others still :( ) however this meant I needed to make some changes - remove the RB30 - easy it was not too far down the track with the fuel system still original and not EFI ready and sell of the Radial Mounted Wilwoods and start on the brakes again. So that is the path I took and why I have decided to ensure the car is T&C compliant 100%.

Right engine was sold to another Datsun Z Club member and the new brakes (never had fluid in them) were again sold to another Datsun Z Club member - they are now on one of my old 240z so they went to a good home ;)

nzeder

12-05-2013, 12:59 PM

During all this Wilwood brake change I also arranged a group buy for a number of Datsun Z club members of some special order 15x8 rims with a more + offset from the default 0 that suit the standard body work of the Datsun Z cars. 15x8 with a 0 offset do fit but some rolling of the rear lip/arch is required - no flare is required just a roll of the lip to ensure no rubbing. However a 15x8 +10 offset works without this rolling if using a 225/50/15.

So 10 sets of rims were order with me only have to commit to selling 6 sets and the importer was happy to sell the remaining 4 sets. I managed to pre sell 7 sets and another set was sold not long after they arrived in the country - I believe all of these have now been sold.

These rims are replicas of the sports options rims and are minilite style - I am sure if you have seen Ricky Datsun 240z at the track then you have seen the rims I arranged. But here are some pics anyway
22861
22862

Here are some pics of the Radial mounted Wilwood that are not on my old 240z that lives in Wellington now
22863
22864
22865
22866

nzeder

12-05-2013, 01:29 PM

So now the path for the car was set - T&C, original L Gata engine, running correct sport option Mikuni triple 44phh carbs now I had to revisit the brakes....again.....this time I tried to source 100% period calipers.

I wanted a caliper that was available in period - no exception or a new caliper that was cast using the original period foundry. All my research lead to just two suppliers that could produce new stock. AP Racing that reproduce the Historic range of calipers which were the same spec/design as those offered by Datsun Competition USA on their options list. However at $1500 a caliper per corner they were out of my budget. I thought I managed to track down a set second hand in the UK and I was planning to collect and pay for them when I was in Europe on business at the beginning of this year - but that was not to be never heard from him once my travel plans were set.

I decided Wilwoods were off the table for the following reasons.

1. The current Superlites are made from new foundries and including newer technologies that make them stiffer than the early Superlite II calipers that were available from 1977/78 onwards once Wilwood came to be. I believe these original superlite II foundries were acquired by Wilwood from another company that was around pre 77/78 so that makes that style period correct.

2. I could not find anywhere that Wilwood still supply these calipers from the original foundries.

3. I am lead to believe that Wilwood GN III are still the same design as pre 77/78/pre Wilwood brand however 6 pots were never fitted to the Datsun Z cars so they were off the table also.

AirHeart/Hurst were off the table also as their calipers today are completely different design and again made using modern foundries/forging techniques

So with AP Racing Historic range out of my budget and Wilwood out due to foundry changes like the AirHeart/Hurst that lead me to the old JFZ calipers which I know were fitted to all manner of cars in the early 70's. I knew JFZ sold to another company in the 90's but I could not recall who it was.

So after a few google searches I found the answer I was looking for - JFZ was purchased by Sierra Racing Products. A few emails and a phone call to the owner of Sierra Racing products confirmed he still had the original foundries for the original JFZ mini GN (mini Grand National) and XL Series. The only difference was when he purchased the JFZ business it did not include the branding rights so he had to alter the branding on the castings. But I found what I was after - a period caliper that was originally manufactured pre 1975 to match the period the car is to now represent 1975 as I will install a L28 which was not homologated or sold to the general public until 1975 (however Nissan did sell a piston kit for the L26 engines from mid 73 to make them into L28)

The good thing is these calipers were in my budget. Here are some pics of what will be going on the car as they are 100% period correct having been cast from the original foundry.228672286822869

Shano

12-05-2013, 09:51 PM

Great thread Nzeder.

nzeder

12-05-2013, 10:34 PM

Thanks Shano.

So now I had the calipers and I knew the fronts XL Series had the correct mount ear spacing as the 240z/260z struts 3.5" (88.9mm). For those that are interested the Sierra Racing Products XL Series share the same dimensions as the Old Superlite II calipers which I also believe is the same as the Bremtek Racing Calipers that were used on Porsches and other cars in the early 70's.

If you look at pictures of all 3 of the brand of calipers you can see how they are basically all the same design sharing the same piston sizing, pads and mounting spacing - so who copied who? I know Bremtek Racing and JFZ were around in the early 70's if not before and Wilwood was formed in mid 1978 going by their history on their web site.

Here are some pictures for comparison
Bremtek
22872
Wilwood Suerlite II
22873
JFZ XL Series + JFZ mini GN single
22874

You can see how the Sierra XL Series is the same as the JFZ just branding is different.

nzeder

12-06-2013, 12:38 AM

Howard Wood

12-06-2013, 03:24 AM

Calling Howard Wood or anyone else who has a Schedule K Sports/GT/Saloon car.

Given all the work I have done to find out what was used in period and I have a number of supporting documents - FIA papers, Sport Option Catalogs, articles etc should I look at applying for Schedule K on my COD for this car?

Absolutely and in my experience it is not too difficult, easy in fact. As discussed, I can only advise on my experience with the '02. I built the car following to the letter a build sheet I drew up after obtaining Homologation papers, the FIA Group 2 regulations for 1973 (because you need to nominate the actual period/year the car represents), some info gathered on the net (Frank de Jong's "Touring Car History" http://touringcarracing.net was a good starting point) and the current sched K regulations (because there are some catch-alls in there not necessarily covered by the other documents).

When the car was ready for its paperwork I simply filled in the MSNZ form which basically outlined the modifications with supporting evidence from either of the above sources together with photos. MSNZ emailed me back over a few weeks with a couple of questions, I assume from their Historic Committee. With the application I included a quick (2 pages) overview of the race history of the model, the Homologation history (because in 1973 Ford and BMW were engaged in a furious homologation war between the works BDA Escorts and Alpina's 2002Tii to win the European Touring Car 2 litre class) and anything else I thought relevant.

Within a few weeks the application came back, honestly as simple as that. Frankly I found the roll cage certification process to be much harder, partly because the rules changed mid build and because a certain well known race preparer and MSNZ technical officer's advice turned out to be totally incorrect.

Rather than get involved in more detail here, I am happy to show you copies of my application and supporting documents.

nzeder

12-06-2013, 04:29 AM

Perfect reply Howard - I have downloaded the correct FIA papers for the period in question in my case the 1975 FIA Appendix J regs for Group 3 & 4 much like your Group 1 & 2 options - in fact Group 4 references the Group 2 regs for all its allowable modifications just the fact it is for 2 seater, 2 door cars not 4 seater (be it two or four doors) aka Grand Touring Cars (Group 3 and 4) is Touring Car (Group 1 and 2).

I have all the info I need and I think I will apply for Schedule K - are you running this weekend? Anybody know how I see the entries list - I have signed on to the motorsportentry.com website and there is a section for entries but nothing shows up - I guess you have to register for the event - bit hard when your car is still in bits :(

Regards
Mike Lucas

ERC

12-06-2013, 04:59 AM

I have an entry list Mike. Will try and email it to you tomorrow.

nzeder

01-01-2014, 02:07 AM

Just a little bit more work done on the car in the last few days.

1. Tidy up of the loom has started. I started on the rear of the loom, removing the factory wires for speakers, electric aerial, and rear window demister. The rear screen the car has does not have the rear demister - this was an option on the early cars, becoming standard later on in the zeds - so no point in them staying I will not be fitting a different rear screen or a radio again.

2. Installed the front brakes - and found an issue with the rears need to modify the rear caliper brackets as the offset is about 1mm out causing the calipers not to fit - this will be sorted in due cause and one of the issue one comes across when replicating period setups when 40+ years has passed by and brake kits that are available now are for later/larger Wilwood setups that were not used in period on the car in question.

I did get a bit of Xmas press for my self too - just before Christmas I was surfing the internet for more info on period setups and other info I could purchase to help me better understand all the parts that were available to races back in the day, anyway I found a copy of the 1974 Datsun Competition Parts Catalog for sale in the USA. I could not get my credit card number out fast enough to order that bad boy. It arrived yesterday and I am very please with my $50USD purchase, it came in the original franked envelop dated 9th April 1975 from "Nissan Motor Corporatation in USA" - and looks like new.

kiwi285

01-02-2014, 09:05 AM

Hopefully not a dumb question - what class are you intending racing this great car in Mike ?

nzeder

01-03-2014, 09:03 AM

No problem I have been supporting Ray and the ERC series for a while. First as pit b...h for Ricky and his Datsun 240z and on on occasion a mk1 Escort for over 10 years now. I have been a financial member of the ERC group for a while now so that is the group I intend to run with. The driving standard and the group are just a great bunch of characters. Also the fact most of the cars are from the same period ie the same make/models the Datsun 240z/260z raced against on circuits all around the world or on rallies at the top level of the sport.

When I first got this car with its modern Skyline DOHC EFI, later Wilwood brake setup it would have been much quicker to complete the project as it was and run in the All All Japanese class (don't think the word classic applies to this bunch of Honda's. If the grid had more Datsun 1600, 1200, 160j SSS, 240z/260z, Skyline C10 (first model car in the world to have the GTR badge with the 2000cc DOHC 4valve engine), Prince GTB (s54), Toyota Sprinter/Levins TE27, Mazda RX2 and RX3 ie all the Japanese models that have racing history in the 70's on the world stage of circuit and rallies then classic can be used but a $4000 or less Honda Civic is not a classic car in my eyes (given finding a good 240z today will cost you 2 x MGB GTs.)) Then the driving standard of these Honda's etc was not at what I would call ideal. I guess that comes down to cost...if the cost of a replacement shell is only $2000-3000 or less then you might have a different take on the cost of fixing a car. Having purchased a number (and maybe the last bunch of NOS) geniune panels for my road zed I can say a bonnet and front guards are the cost of one of these entire cars plus some and that does not include bumper or more to the point many of the NLA parts that go with a car that is over 40 yeard old.

Limezed

01-03-2014, 10:29 AM

Have to agree with you Mike. I felt more comfortable in the wet with Ray's ERC guys than i did in the dry with "classic" jap.

Great bunch of guys to chat with as well.

nzeder

03-31-2014, 09:56 AM

So long time no post or work on the car :( kids little time vampires

Anyway it is now decision time - front spoilers. The zed cars had 4 options in period depending on market and customer requests. Well there were other options like the ZG nose and the 3 different type of fender flares from factory ZG fender flares, type A works fender flares and the super large works type B fender flares (like those used on the Le Mans enter zeds)

Option 1 = no front spoiler
Option 2 = UK, EU and NZ factory/dealer delivered/option Urethane front spoiler (super rare and most are damaged)
Option 3 = USA/CANADA factory/dealer delivered/option non ducted front spoiler
Option 4 = USA/CANADA factory/dealer delivered/option ducted front spoiler

As I have decided to go Schedule K with my application once the car is complete - then all of the above options are open to me. If I go T&C then no front spoiler is allowed (however I see many cars in that claim to be T&C compliant have front spoilers including HMC) this is from 3.2 (1) which stated only rear wings that were available in period can be fitted.

Under T&C must be of the original materials etc - the factory fitted Urethane front spoilers have an issue that their mounting brackets tend to rust off/out of the Urethane. I have managed to locate one of these spoilers but like most it has seen better days now they are some 40+ years old. I see CAMS in AU due to this reason they allow replica version of these to installed as does the FIA - so I assume MSNZ/HRC too will allow Fiber Glass replica. I have seen FIA HTP 240z for sale with option 4 fitted.

As I am 99% sure I will go down the Schedule K path so that means any period spoiler can be used so what say you??

Sample Image time.
First up the Urethane item - my old 240z NZ new
24533
UK Press picture from back in the day
24531
Datsun 260z in a museum in Germany
24532

Now the non ducted USA/CANADA option
24528

And now the ducted USA/CANADA option (as used by BRE race car and others)
24529
Period race team pic as completed in an event - notice no bumpers fitted, usually only the front bumper was fitted during transportation and photos pre event.
24530

nzeder

03-31-2014, 10:01 AM

Kiwiboss

03-31-2014, 10:37 AM

Great info Nzder, much discussion on the weekend over Ricky Coopers 240Z front area and bumper/spoiler, etc as i don't believe it to be to T&C which seems to be as you say above? infact not just his spoiler but the whole front of his Z? Ricky says its period but that doesn't count under T&C or K?

You are correct in that HMC front spoilers don't have to be T&C although my Mustang still is and will remain so, we have added our own front spoiler rule over and above T&C to give the cars that historic Trans Am look as seen on the new Roger Williams 69 Camaro that raced on the weekend, but our spoiler rules are quite detailed and in-fact we stole them direct from the 1970 Trans Am rule book so still "era" compliant which is important!! Also, all HMC front spoilers are an addition and we don't allow for the remove of any other front sheet metal so these items must remain to also comply with T&C.

PS: I wish more would do there homework before they build a MSNZ compliant historic race car as you have done

Dale M

ERC

03-31-2014, 11:16 AM

In fact not just his spoiler but the whole front of his Z? Ricky says its period but that doesn't count under T&C or K?

Did I just read that even if it is period, it doesn't count for T & C?

Had a chat today with Tony and the question of originality cropped up.

The conundrum is this. If you have a rare car where replacement body panels are impossible to source, is it better to fit replacement fibreglass panels and store the decent originals under the bench, thus incurring the wrath of the purists, who seem happy to criticise, but don't ever have to risk destroying their own pride and joy, or, do you accept that you are better off not racing at all and depriving the public of seeing what may be an iconic car?

At times it is a tougher call than some realise. Cars that may have been fairly common in their day are now remarkably scarce, so risking them on a race track isn't as easy as it was in period.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the front of Ricky's car (and don't forget he was the innocent victim of a race mishap that damaged several panels, when it was still the original colour) as to me, it now looks totally period and is a credit to him. As has been pointed out before, I can't see him getting a race advantage out of it.

Sorry Mike for butting in, but I really admire your total dedication to purity and anyone else that puts that amount of effort into a build.

For many competitors, bearing in mind there is an element of risk attached, they see it as an expensive, time consuming gamble when all they want to do is race the car, not build it. Others like yourself may enjoy the research and build process rather more than the racing.

With more pure cars out there, it will certainly strengthen that sector of the sport.

nzeder

03-31-2014, 11:27 AM

With regards to Ricky's car is that only issue as you see it?
I have been a zed owner for a long time, not as long as Ricky who was driving/racing/playing with cars while I was still at school - primary school I bet too, but in the 21 years I have been a zed owner I have studied the marque a fair bit, I have collected a lot of info/catalogs/books and recently some period info to assist with my application for Schedule K

Ricky's wheels 15" and in the factory sport option style = check (I arrange the custom group buy in the correct offset)
Ricky's rear spoiler = check (there were 3 variations over the years from 1970-1978)
Ricky's engine L28 = check (engine available/FIA homologated in 1975)
Ricky's triple mikuni carb = check (sport option Mikuni's however some also used Webers or Dellortos in period too)
Ricky's gearbox = check (standard Nissan spec, close ratio option)
Ricky's diff = check (standard 260z/280z spec with FIA approved ratios/LSD)
Ricky's brake = check (all 4pot alloy bolt together calipers on 2 piece rotors as in period)

All other parts on Ricky's car is correct for the period of the car - and yes the front is not 70's period correct it is a common mid 80's type that first appeared in Australia I believe.

Now here is 1970's image (period correct spec) of a IMSA GTU spec'ed zed car (could be 240z/260z or 280z) this has the full GTU body kit that was and is still available today.
24535

How is Ricky's front any different to this? Ok not based on the ZG longer nose like on the Red 240z that Earl Cruickshank races. The ZG as it is known has the longer front (all FRP from factory) and over fenders - these Fairlady 240Z (G-Nose) as they were marketed in Japan) were built to homologate the longer nose cone and over fenders.

Here is a pic of stock ZG
24536

nzeder

03-31-2014, 11:58 AM

My other zed has a factory ZG kits (of the factory 5 pieces I have 4 with a custom made lower our of steel, I live on a gravel road = FRP would be gone in no time) The factory light covers for both the stock nose and the ZG nose are moon beams now days - I sold one set of NOS ZG light cover to help purchase the race car that is how much they go for $1000 USD a set. The remaining 4 factory parts to the ZG kit I have are NLA. There is a place in Japan that makes the best replica parts but they will cost you $6000 NZD. So most ZG you see are one piece replicas as pointed out by Ray - too much of a risk to even think about going near a track.

I got a NOS bonnet our of Japan for my road 260z but Nissan said that was it - no more so I must have gotten one of the last bonnets out of Japan. When I got my ZG light covers NOS out of Japan I was told there were only 5 sets left from that supplier so I purchased 2 sets (only have one set now for the road car but did double my investment on the sale)

My road 260z has replica type A over fenders - but I did not like bolt on look - so had custom steel ones rolled up and installed.

Here is pic of the other zed - still a work in progress too (17 years so far - keep purchasing other zed and motorbikes to shift my focus from this car + keep having kids, I know the problem not spending enough time in the sheds working on the car so 4 kids I need two more cars so I can leave them one each)
24537
That is a very old pic - test fitting the rims with no springs in to check flare clearances before painting - still a shell in my shed at home (sold the Red 240z above to build the shed to house this car)

Spgeti

03-31-2014, 08:58 PM

This is a great thread Mike and valuable for anyone building a Zed. Keep it going.

Kiwiboss

03-31-2014, 09:40 PM

Yes Nzeder, great job you’re doing and very informative and I admit my knowledge of 240’s is very limited hence great to have you on here!!

Personally I have no issue’s racing with Rickys Z and would race side by side with him any day of the week, he is one of the cleanest and smoothest drivers I know, but I keep getting question "only" about his frontal panel/spoiler work and no rear bumpers but I don’t know the answer, when I read T&C as attached below I get it as “original materials as per STANDARD SERIES PRODUCTION VEHICLE” and then this gets over ridden with “Period modifications are permissible”

3:2 Exterior The vehicle shall be smartly maintained and have all exterior trim in place. It must retain bumpers if originally fitted. All panels,bumpers, mouldings, spoilers etc. must be made of the original materials as per the STANDARD series Production vehicle. eg; steel panels must be retained if originally fitted. Period modifications are permissible.
(1) Only rear wings (aerofoil) which were available for the car in period may be fitted. These must be
made of materials from that period. ie; no Kevlar.
(2) Any/all modifications must be in period (refer definitions).

But when I read what “Period” means it states when “first used actively in Motorsport Competition in New Zealand, or a minimum of three(3) separate overseas examples” so with that being the case does Rickys Z fit these descriptions hence making it correct as it currently sits? your help and thoughts appreciated Nzeder!!

“Period” means the era (years) during which a vehicle model and/or its components were first used actively in Motorsport Competition in New Zealand, or a minimum of three(3) separate overseas examples, and

Dale M

nzeder

03-31-2014, 10:30 PM

Hi Dale, now that is interesting. You see I have never taken the rules as you have pointed out. I will quote your post from above.

"original materials as per STANDARD SERIES PRODUCTION VEHICLE” and then this gets over ridden with “Period modifications are permissible”

I have never read the rules that way. I read it as "stand series production vehicle" without the other over the top of that. This is how I come to the conclusion that an escort with bubble arches (forest flare) or an ISMA 240z (pic off car #33 above, that car in question is a good story) is not T&C as they don't have standard series production body work. The should however fit schedule k if all other components fit schedule k ie escorts with arches must run 13" rims as that is all that was used in period with the flares.

Now to answer your point about NZ racing. The 240z did not start running here in NZ until after the Datsun Z Club formed in 1981 and it took a few years to the marque accepted by others so 240z started to actively race at taccoc, datsun z club, lotus club and other until mid 80's so for NZ racing period correct.

If Ricky's car is to represent the period "era" of one of the international zeds then sure ideally the front should change. I guess after Ricky's car was damaged (only panel not bent was the roof) then he could have imported an isma body kit like the car above thus giving him 14" more width in the rear 7" a side, running 15x15 rims or 15x12 for wets and have hugh grip and therefore be faster than he is now but still be 100% 1975 period correct.

I have thought about building an isma 240z after all they won the 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1979 GTU driver championships and manufacturers championship in 1975, 1976 and 1979.

ERC

03-31-2014, 10:57 PM

Dale, what you have pointed out its basically one of the issues we have always had regarding T & C rules. There are anomalies and the wording in the rules and MSNZ manual have always had these problems.

Way back, the book said "cylinder block and head material MUST be standard" (my emphasis).

A page or two later - "period modifications are allowed". So fitting an alloy cross-flow head to a Mini or an MGB is not allowed on one page and allowed on another.

These issues have been around for at least the 18 years I have been involved in the series.

"A minimum of 3 overseas examples" of something also means that you can't build a Marina V8 for example, if the factory only produced one.

nzeder

04-01-2014, 03:08 AM

Good point Ray and then the definition of

“Standard” means a vehicle identifiable as belonging to a production series, with a minimum
model run of 100 identical units, distinguishable by external general lines of the bodywork and
identical mechanical construction of the engine, transmission and suspension to the wheels

It all gets a bit messed up when you see statements like "Standard" then "Period modifications are permissible" so which is it? Does the body work have to be standard or period modified or both? If this is the case forest flares were a period mod as is an IMSA body kit on a 240z or wide body Porsches, MGB etc.

So under T&C I was under the impression I would have "Standard" body work and for a NZ new car like my 260z that includes the front Urethane chin spoiler and the rear spoiler like Ricky has. I could not change the front spoiler for any other type as that is clearly stated as 3.2(1) only rears can be changed for other period rear spoilers.

However with the way Dale has pointed out after the statement about standard series production vehicle there is the "Period modifications are permissible." so a period modification was to remove the bumper which part of that whole line trumps the other?

I thought I had these rules down....now I am not sure...no wonder people say to hell with it all let just race and forget these COD, rules for this and that. When the rules themselves say you can't do X in the first part then say X is allowed later WTF

Kiwiboss

04-01-2014, 03:11 AM

This is where we need a "tech-line" direct to MSNZ so anyone can phone(or E-mail) for a definition!!

Dale M

ERC

04-01-2014, 03:49 AM

The 100 examples rule is equally flawed, given that the of various full sized Marcos models prior to the 1980's reincarnation, out of 13 major (production) variants, only 4 exceeded 100 units and 7 had less than 50 (plus two or three well known prototypes that I haven't even counted). Are they still classics? Of course they are. The ex-Jackie Stewart "Ugly Duckling" was one of just 9 built, but it was later raced successfully by Jem Marsh in UK Historic events.

Even when the models where numbers were higher, it is doubtful that 100 were ever identical, given the various options on offer.

Most were never homologated in period anyway making Schedule K a bit of a mission. I investigated it briefly at one stage and decided that there was no point whatever given that I can race the car anyway.

Fair call Dale, but I think most classic/historic people would prefer it went via a panel of people with sufficient knowledge and interest who at least understand why. Putting the option of a definition or ruling to one person is back into small black moustache territory!

Steve Holmes

04-01-2014, 03:54 AM

Another pic of the ducted front on a racecar with ZG over fenders fitted.
24534

So what are the general con censors on this forum? I am leaning towards the ducted as that is what most race teams in the USA used + that allows me to run ducts to the brakes which aid in cooling period brakes which I will be running. Who is with me Option 4 (there are 2 version of this option the ones posted and later version for the USA Spec 280z which is more curved)

Reason I have posted these options up as I have one of each of these spoilers. I have not included other IMSA type or the number of ZG types that were used in period as there are just so many different looks - even the Macau 240z that had a very odd custom front end used back in the day.

Brilliant thread Mike, I'm really enjoying this.

This would be my choice for the front spoiler. Its period correct, as you say, and looks fantastic on the Z. One of the nicest aspects of these cars, in my opinion, is the nose, and this spoiler compliments the nose really well, and doesn't detract from all the nice shapes and curves.

Steve Holmes

04-01-2014, 04:01 AM

Hi Dale, now that is interesting. You see I have never taken the rules as you have pointed out. I will quote your post from above.

I have never read the rules that way. I read it as "stand series production vehicle" without the other over the top of that. This is how I come to the conclusion that an escort with bubble arches (forest flare) or an ISMA 240z (pic off car #33 above, that car in question is a good story) is not T&C as they don't have standard series production body work. The should however fit schedule k if all other components fit schedule k ie escorts with arches must run 13" rims as that is all that was used in period with the flares.

My understanding is as you've written here Mike. Using the Escort as an example, you can either fit larger diameter wheels as per T&C, but you can't fit the forest flares. But under Schedule K, you can fit the flares, but you must then run original diameter wheels, as raced on in period. I view Schedule K as being similar to FIA Appendix K, in that what you're essentially building is a car that is a mechanical and aesthetic replica of a car as it raced in period.

A common sight in NZ classic racing, is when people mix and match T&C with Schedule K: eg (using the Escort again) they'll fit the forest flares as allowed under Schedule K (but not T&C), but then also go up a size in wheel diameter, as allowed under T&C (but not Schedule K).

But that just my interpretation of the rules, and it seems I'm just as confused as everyone else.

ERC

04-01-2014, 04:19 AM

You are not confused Steve. It is just that some of us found many of these anomalies years ago and elected to 'do our own thing' and just accepted the pointy fingers and negativity from some quarters.

Whenever you write up 'rules' there are always exceptions and developments and most people have either a broad knowledge but no real depth, or a deep knowledge and no real breadth!

I don't believe there is anyone anywhere who can cover the whole spectrum of classics and historics in depth as well as breadth. Some, such as yourself, never fail to astound me with their knowledge and Mike's intimate knowledge of Z's is mind boggling but he probably can't give you any real depth on say TVR's or Maseratis. The same applies to the H & Commission. A real mix of talented knowledge, but even their combined wisdom can only go so far.

nzeder

04-01-2014, 04:30 AM

I am with you Ray knowledge is spread based on people interest. I for one am happy to learn more about other marques I just know an un health amount about the early zed cars not as much as other around the world but more than most in NZ thats for sure. Forget asking me about a 300zx or later Nissan killed the zed IMHO when they went to a V6

I think the Escort forest flare is an easy example which is why I use it.

1. Where these fitted to 100 identical cars? Aka considered "Standard series production"

2. If 1. above is not considered standard then is the a period modification under T&C?

It does get confusing. The way I see it K is the original specification of a car at a given point in history as raced or homologated. No mixing matching at all. Ie Escort with forest flares and BDA with 13" rims, x gearbox and x diff as ran in 1972. Then T&C is for standard cars modified to period specs ie standard body escort 1300 sport shell with pinto engine to make a rs2000 replica. The T&C escort could changing a few things over time with in the T&C rules ie change webers for dellortos, change rims from 13 those allowed under T&C but not fit forest flares as then the car is not standard series production sure fit front GT front fenders with the little lip/flare as they were a standard series production item. Even roll the lips for more rim clearances as that too was a period modification to standard body. Replacing the whole arch with forest flares no longer standard series production.

The same example could be said for the 240z. Standard body T&C, zg nose and zg over fenders still standard series body just a model variation. Install IMSA GTU flares and nose cose then no longer standard series as not sold to the general public like that. So then pick the era/period your now IMSA 240z represents lookup the rules for that and your car must be true to those specs aka original specifications. So if that means 2500cc max, 290mm x 20mm rotors front and rear then that is what it has to be not 310mm x 32mm rotors as that was not the original specification.

RacerT

04-01-2014, 04:32 AM

"Yes Nzeder, great job you’re doing and very informative and I admit my knowledge of 240’s is very limited hence great to have you on here!!

Personally I have no issue’s racing with Rickys Z and would race side by side with him any day of the week, he is one of the cleanest and smoothest drivers I know, but I keep getting question "only" about his frontal panel/spoiler work and no rear bumpers but I don’t know the answer, when I read T&C as attached below I get it as “original materials as per STANDARD SERIES PRODUCTION VEHICLE” and then this gets over ridden with “Period modifications are permissible”

3:2 Exterior The vehicle shall be smartly maintained and have all exterior trim in place. It must retain bumpers if originally fitted. All panels,bumpers, mouldings, spoilers etc. must be made of the original materials as per the STANDARD series Production vehicle. eg; steel panels must be retained if originally fitted. Period modifications are permissible.
(1) Only rear wings (aerofoil) which were available for the car in period may be fitted. These must be
made of materials from that period. ie; no Kevlar.
(2) Any/all modifications must be in period (refer definitions).

But when I read what “Period” means it states when “first used actively in Motorsport Competition in New Zealand, or a minimum of three(3) separate overseas examples” so with that being the case does Rickys Z fit these descriptions hence making it correct as it currently sits? your help and thoughts appreciated Nzeder!!

“Period” means the era (years) during which a vehicle model and/or its components were first used actively in Motorsport Competition in New Zealand, or a minimum of three(3) separate overseas examples, and

Dale M "

Hi Dale
The Thoroughbred and Classic regulations were never meant to be applied to racing car modifications, but over 40 years the thinking has changed. It was originally meant to apply to, say a set of Weber carbs on a car (much like your Mustang), or flared guards, twin SU's on a Viva etc. Modifications that would still allow the car to be driven on the road and get a WOF.

However, people have pushed the boundaries to build look-a-likes of their favourite race cars, such as MG Le Mans Midget, SCCA Alfa Romeo Spider, Datsun 240Z etc. The problem is that this invariably takes the cars outside T&C regulations compliance. Ideally these cars should be Sch K compliant, but they are never exact replica's, as is necessary for Sch K compliance, so they fall into no mans land.

I believe the Commission needs to define "Period Modification" so that it reflects the original intent of allowing for "road modification", rather than allowing the replication of a race car(3) that competed overseas in the period. If the intent of T&C can be regulated, then I believe we have a way forward. Tony R

Howard Wood

04-01-2014, 04:46 AM

nzeder

04-01-2014, 05:02 AM

All these grey areas in T & C are good reason to opt for the full Sched K when you can. Once you have determined the particular year/ model/ race class you want to represent/ replicate then the process is actually simple. The onus is on you to prove that any modifications and combinations were actually used in period, using Homologation papers, period books and articles or photographs.

Bingo Howard that is why I have been thinking more and more about Schedule K - I have locked down my era/period and I have collected period info/sport option catalog from this period/year. This is why with my question about spoilers was about which one to run - those available on standard series production cars aka the Ultra rare Urethane chin spoiler, the non ducted item listed on the sports option lists or the ducted version used on the period race cars.

As I am going to go for the K on the COD application I will run the ducted spoiler that I recently acquired.

Steve Holmes

04-01-2014, 07:41 AM

I hope you don't mind that we've somewhat hi-jacked your thread Mike.

nzeder

04-01-2014, 07:48 AM

I hope you don't mind that we've somewhat hi-jacked your thread Mike.no all good.

If we all learn more we will be better informed.

crunch

04-01-2014, 08:44 AM

Bingo Howard that is why I have been thinking more and more about Schedule K - I have locked down my era/period and I have collected period info/sport option catalog from this period/year. This is why with my question about spoilers was about which one to run - those available on standard series production cars aka the Ultra rare Urethane chin spoiler, the non ducted item listed on the sports option lists or the ducted version used on the period race cars.

As I am going to go for the K on the COD application I will run the ducted spoiler that I recently acquired.

Good decision! :cool:

nzeder

04-01-2014, 09:49 AM

Kiwiboss

04-01-2014, 11:00 AM

Ok so back on topic then :)

Spotted this for sale a long time ago but thought it was interesting to see given it is a Datsun 240z with FIA-HTP for Period G2 Class GTS 21

24567

I will be installing the same front spoiler on my zed - so now I need just a few more things, the rear spoiler, new helmet, neck support and mylaps transponder (if anyone has a transponder for sale let me know - I am in no hurry for one as I can rent to start with) and time in the shed again ;)

Great picture Nzeder as thats how i would think Rickys Z should look, still with the manufactures production frontal sheet metal making it T&C correct according to Tonys(RacerT) above posting and a period lower spoiler(correct)!! come on Ricky you must be watching this post, whats your take on this as you own the car, do you agree or disagree?

Dale M

Ricky

04-01-2014, 07:07 PM

I don't disagree that it looks smart but the front bumper and valance panels on that car are also all fiberglass so what's the difference.

Bryan

04-02-2014, 12:01 AM

Howard Wood

04-02-2014, 12:55 AM

What you can't do is pick and choose from different catalogues, years and classes, in that regard nzeder is absolutely correct. This of course is easy with popular race cars such as Escort, Capri, BMW '02 etc especially if the homologation papers are available.

You raise an interesting question regarding British Leyland Comps dept. Around 1968 BL Competitions decided to build a Group 2 Rover P6B project car. They built at least one and possibly more and Roy Pierpoint drove the car in some club events and at least one European long distance event where the thing blitzed the field before retiring. In typical BL manner the whole exercise was half arsed, and rife with in-fighting, the car and modifications were never homologated and the Comps dept closed down shortly afterwards, I understand the car went to Aus.

Today there appear to be a number of replica/ reproductions ( even assuming the original car(s) survived) racing in the UK and Europe where the need for documentation is far stricter than here. This raises the question of what is the process involved in ratifying such a car because it seems this situation is no different to say the Custaxie2 or possibly Ray's Marcos.

Bryan

04-02-2014, 01:37 AM

Howard Wood

04-02-2014, 02:01 AM

It would be a miracle if the Homologation papers still exist and this is where the system does break down. In theory ALL homologation papers are available from the original issuing authority, in BL's case Motorsport UK and in a perfect world the manufacturer's archives. Can you imagine the state of BL's archives and record keeping?

Even in the case of the Group 2 papers for a BMW 2002Tii, these are listed by Motorsport Germany as missing, N/A, the helpful person I corresponded with there even sent me a list of all German Group 2 Homologation papers and their current status, from memory 20 - 30% were N/A. Fortunately BMW are a manufacturer who value their competition history and have an archive at their Mobile Tradition museum.
They were able and willing to supply (free of charge) a copy of every '02 related homologation and extension (in German!) which I painstakingly catalogued into number sequence and subject, ie Bodywork, suspension, engine etc.

Steve Holmes

04-02-2014, 02:23 AM

It's interesting you mention the Rover P6B, Howard. iirc I have seen photos recently of one racing in Sports Sedans in Aussie in the '70s. A similar scenario to the Marina V8 BL Special Tuning built for the '74 World Cup marathon rally, where a second car was also built and ended up in Australia. However, there don't appear to be any surviving build documents, so the only proof of the technical spec is the Evan Green book "A Bootfull of Right Arms", a couple of clippings from Autosport, and the 40-year-old recollections of the car's driver.:p

Do the FIA have the original homologation papers from the early 1970s - BL ST had a range of spoilers in their catalogues, but I have never seen them in photos of cars competiting at the time. But the same catalogue has 4-link and turret kits that were used.

Regarding the Rover P6B, its the same car. It was sold to Jim Smith in Australia, who raced it as a Sports Sedan. It even visited New Zealand on one occasion, racing at Bay Park. There is at least one replica currently in the UK, as Howard says. But this/these cars compete in events against other equally rare/specialised machinery, such as Group 2 RS3100 GAA Cosworth Capris, plus 1980s Group A cars and '90s Super Tourers. I assume this is the only place it gets accepted. There was one racing at the Silverstone Classic in 2013.

24571

Bryan

04-02-2014, 03:41 AM

It would be a miracle if the Homologation papers still exist and this is where the system does break down. In theory ALL homologation papers are available from the original issuing authority, in BL's case Motorsport UK and in a perfect world the manufacturer's archives. Can you imagine the state of BL's archives and record keeping?

Archive of the British Motor Industry Heritage Trust (http://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/archive-services/) may have some info, but they note the BL era build records are incomplete. Mini Cooper homologation papers are around on the net, no doubt some others will be where they were considered "historic" early enough for someone to bother saving them.

nzeder

04-02-2014, 03:41 AM

BL point is an interesting one. As I read/understand/interpret the FIA rules group 2 and group 4 under appendix j of the given year must have at least 100 identical vehicles in both body and mechanical spec to be classed as groups 2 or 4. If these manufacturer's didn't meet this requirement then the car/spec was to be moved into group 5 I believe. The issue was these were not enforced in period so things like a Holbay twin cam head was added to the homlogation papers as ford who submitted the application was seen to be large manufacture and could have manufactured 100 unit in 12 months so the paper was approved even if one 2 or 3 where actually made in 12 months. So the whole thing can be a minefield.

My understanding of K is you pick an era/period that you want your selected car to represent. The get the original specifications of how a car (or a number of identical cars) ran in the period and your car is to be built to that specifications 100%. So if a bmw 2002 had the group 2 body work but you can't find a single example of one running with rack and pinion with this body work then it can't be done today under schedule k as it did not happen in the day like that. Sure one might find a 2002 with rack and pinion but standard body work, or group2 body work with steering box. Even if rack and pinion is listed in the US catalog for 1972 but no body work but the DE catalog shows body work but no rack and pinion in 1972 unless you can proof both were used on a single car at the same time then they are off the table.

Well that is my understanding of it.

Howard Wood

04-02-2014, 03:54 AM

BMW lodged a Group 2 homologation extension for rack and pinion steering in 1973 so this modification is no issue if you are representing the car as 1973. However if you are representing say 1969 then no go. This is why the papers are so important as a starting point as the documentation trail is very clear.

nzeder

04-02-2014, 04:06 AM

Thanks for clearing that up I knew it was a 60's vs 70's thing and my 1972 was a bit of guess of the year so close for a non bmw guy :)

nzeder

04-02-2014, 04:35 AM

I don't disagree that it looks smart but the front bumper and valance panels on that car are also all fiberglass so what's the difference.Earl's red 240z no one appears to have issues with and it is a single piece ZG nose made from fiberglass which technical is not T&C compliant as the original ZG nose is 5 pieces with 4 parts made from FRP and a urethane bumper so not made from the material as standard series production but like Ray has pointed out why would you risk the rare factory parts worth over $6000 when a replica fiberglass single piece is only $1000 and you can get them unlike the originals that once damaged are gone for good.

As you know Ricky the 3 lower panels are non longer available and if you can find second hand ones they are usually in bad condition as most have been bent via parking incidents or nose to tails (the zed have a long bonnet and take sometime getting used to that)

Front bumpers are also hens teeth unless you have deep pockets and get some new stainless steel items so again fiberglass is the only option after those.

Then your car is getting singled out as non compliance yet as discussed here any Escort with bubble arches that does not have a schedule k cod is also non T&C compliant. So why are they not told not to run. If someone is going to play the your car is not compliant card then they better play fair and do that to everyone in the field that is non compliant not pick and choice cars as someone feels fit.

It is for these reason I have decided to ensure my is compliant so if my car is denied a grid entry there has to be a valid reason (apart from poor drive standards which should be a give for classic racing). Well until any damage happens then the NLA parts issue is going to kick in like has done for Ricky.

ERC

04-02-2014, 05:13 AM

24571

That registration plate is for a 1966 car (ends in D) and the Pierpoint Rover first appeared in 1970. I do have an April 1970 photograph of the original car at Mallory Park.

Mike, you are 100% correct. Bonnet lifting and finger pointing are all well and good but the reality is that this can cause more angst and upset than being more relaxed about and that in itself can destroy the very thing we have tried to build up over the last 18 years by being a bit more pragmatic.

What do most drivers want? A smallish field of supposedly pure cars with every driver trying to catch out the opposition in the paddock and a big grey cloud of suspicion pervading the atmosphere? Or a more relaxed atmosphere, great camaraderie and cars that BROADLY fit the spirit of what we are all about?

nzeder

04-02-2014, 12:55 PM

While researching more tonight what do I found - check this out from the 1977 Movie "Herbie goes to Monte Carlo"
2458524586

So that got me digging for more info about this particular car. The car used in the movie started life as one of the 50 official 240z pace cars build by Datsun Competition Department. The car was sold $1.00 to Joel Anderson once its official duties were complete. The 50 were sold to the Californian Datsun Dealers and the car in the movie and sold to Joel was one of the pace cars used as a pace car so had suspension modification and performance modifications to support its track duties - some of the other cars did not receive the engine performance modification as that would have altered the Californian smog spec making them illegal for road use/ie promotion work.

Anderson later converted the car to GTU spec as show/raced in this pic
24587

This car in question had an interesting life. From Pace car
24588
to Movie star
24585
to GTU race car
24587

nzeder

04-02-2014, 01:17 PM

While talking about period race cars and front spoilers check out these items that were used on zeds in period all around the world.

First up the Macau 240z - delivered in 1970
24589

Next up from the USA the Kearney Z at Palm Beach International
24590
Same car different front again
24591

The IMSA zed image I posted earlier was restored from this - "A photo by Paul Woodbury and what he said about it. "This is the Camel GT pace car in 1986 at Road Atlanta. I was attending the SCCA Runoffs and walked around the back of a maintenance building and there it was. It was sitting in the red clay without any wheels. A sad sight to see for sure." It was restored and painted in BSR colors for vintage racing and recently restored to the pace car livery and is now owned by Adam Carolla."
24592

Enough for now.

nzeder

04-02-2014, 01:46 PM

Here is more on the camel pace car.

http://www.ebaymotorsblog.com/bob-sharp-datsun-z-camel-gt-pace-car/

nzeder

04-02-2014, 11:11 PM

Found a blog on the web this morning while waiting for a job to run on the PC. It was a small little page showing pictures of 1976 ProdSport race from Calder Park in Australia.

Here is a link to the blog
http://wwwbollyblog.blogspot.co.nz/2011/06/prodsports-in-70s.html

Some might enjoy the other cars in the pictures - but for me it shows a full Group 4 FIA spec 240z running in this part of the world in period which is just great.

The car is said to belong to Fernando D'Alberto?

Does anyone else have info on this car in question?

2459324594245952459624597

RacerT

04-02-2014, 11:45 PM

Cool shots Mike.
Even the Corvette's running the homologated big flares and is that a Bolwell in front of the Datsun in the third picture?

Paul Wilkinson

04-02-2014, 11:57 PM

Cool shots Mike.
Even the Corvette's running the homologated big flares and is that a Bolwell in front of the Datsun in the third picture?

I think that Corvette is the Bolwell again. Similar flying buttress rear...

nzeder

04-03-2014, 12:02 AM

Cool shots Mike.
Even the Corvette's running the homologated big flares and is that a Bolwell in front of the Datsun in the third picture?I believe it might be an MG let me see if I can find more pics - blue #5 Bolwell Nagari Hardtop is Ranald McLurkin. The white Bolwell convertible is Alan Edwards

Also Ferdie is the Uncle to Tony D'Alberto of V8 SC fame. In 2011 Ferdie still had ownership of the Datsun too. Might have to look into that more - I was thinking of selling the road 260z once that is complete - however now I am thinking - one T&C standard body based car and one Schedule K FIA Group 4 replica like the Ferdie car ;) now where is my winning lotto ticket.....
2459824599

nzeder

04-03-2014, 12:45 AM

Could not find more pics but there was info about the points and runners here - so yes there was a Corvette in the series but not in the pics that I could find.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Australian_Sports_Car_Championship (This was the first Australian Sports Car Championship to be restricted to production based cars.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Australian_Sports_Car_Championship

nzeder

04-03-2014, 03:21 AM

Found some images on the "oldracephotos.com" web site of a Corvette for you Tony - however respecting the images are copyrighted and for sale I will only post links to the images

Here is the link to the Corvette
http://www.oldracephotos.com/shop/product2351#5816_N_Corv_77

Here is another 240z that also raced in this Production based Sport Car Championship - again a link to the oldracephotos site
http://www.oldracephotos.com/shop/product2430#5875_N_240Z_76

nzeder

07-26-2014, 08:45 AM

Long time no update. Well work had me working hard on a major upgrade for the last few months as the CIO was pushing hard to get the project completed before the end of our FY of 31st July. Now I find out why...due to a restructure I now find my position is redundant. ..great work me like a dog to get it done only to give me notice once I do the project. Well such is life/business. So I will have time to work on the zed something I have been short on of late. So just one more week of work after almost 16 years in the same company. Friday will be a sad day but as one door closes others will open and between interviews I will be in the shed working on my 2 x Datsun 260z 2 seaters. Racecar first so I can get it ready for ice breaker.

Sorry to any ozzies but good on them for restructuring the NZ business which is making more money than Australia with only 10% of the work force that oz has and decide to shutdown our manufacturing plant and move it to Australia. ...why we are making money and oz is not..

Oldfart

07-26-2014, 05:47 PM

Bad news Mike, and something a lot of us are familiar with. I hope "another door opens" for you when you wish.

nzeder

08-22-2014, 09:55 AM

Update:

As stated about I am at a turning point on the career front. With time to think (sometimes never a good idea) and looking at one 260z I have here at home (while putting parts on it to clear floor space to get the full caged car home from the parents garage) I made a decision.

Before I go into to much details some background on this car.

If you have read my whole thread you might habe worked out that I love the Datsun s30z aka 240z/260z as many know them as (the s30 chassis was marketed as a number of different models with different configurations globally) having owned and raced a few over the past 22 years.

This thread was started to cover my build of my latest zed project they full caged early 260z but I also own a later 260z again a 2 seater. This later 260z is the first Datsun zed I purchased. It has been off the road for over 17 years getting a rebuild. This project has taken me on a journey and has been a big part of my life. Plans changed a number of time during this cars rebuild process. The plan was to have this later 260z as my road car however given my current employment status and spending time in the shed plans have changed again.

So first some pics of this later 260z. (Click on small image to see larger)
As puchased - Rust repairs - Steel flares getting built - test fit of road rubber this might take a few post as only 6 images per post.
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/aspurchased/thumbs/thumbs_aspurchased2.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/aspurchased/aspurchased2.jpg)

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/rustrepair/thumbs/thumbs_rustrepair8.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/rustrepair/rustrepair8.jpg)

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/preblast/thumbs/thumbs_preblast7.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/preblast/preblast7.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/postblast/thumbs/thumbs_postblast5.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/postblast/postblast5.jpg)

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/custombody/thumbs/thumbs_custombody2.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/custombody/custombody2.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/custombody/thumbs/thumbs_custombody14.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/custombody/custombody14.jpg)

nzeder

08-22-2014, 10:06 AM

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/wheelsfit2/thumbs/thumbs_testfitwheelswithflares1.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/wheelsfit2/testfitwheelswithflares1.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/wheelsfit2/thumbs/thumbs_testfitwheelswithflares5.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/wheelsfit2/testfitwheelswithflares5.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/wheelsfit2/thumbs/thumbs_testfitwheelswithflares6.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/wheelsfit2/testfitwheelswithflares6.jpg)

nzeder

08-22-2014, 10:08 AM

Painting time.
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish10.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish10.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish9.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish9.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish8.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish8.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish7.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish7.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish6.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish6.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish5.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish5.jpg)

nzeder

08-22-2014, 10:10 AM

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish4.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish4.jpg)*http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish3.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish3.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish2.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish2.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/thumbs/thumbs_panelfinish1.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/panelwork1/panelfinish1.jpg)

nzeder

08-22-2014, 10:13 AM

Painted
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/thumbs/thumbs_painted-flash-off1.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/painted-flash-off1.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/thumbs/thumbs_painted-flash-off2.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/painted-flash-off2.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/thumbs/thumbs_painted-flash-off3.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/painted-flash-off3.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/thumbs/thumbs_painted-flash-off4.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/painted-flash-off4.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/thumbs/thumbs_painted-flash-off5.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/painted-flash-off5.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/thumbs/thumbs_painted-flash-off6.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/painted1/painted-flash-off6.jpg)

nzeder

08-22-2014, 10:14 AM

1/2 cage installed.
http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage1.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage1.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage2.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage2.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage3.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage3.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage4.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage4.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage5.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage5.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage6.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage6.jpg)

nzeder

08-22-2014, 10:16 AM

http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage7.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage7.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage8.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage8.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage9.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage9.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage10.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage10.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage11.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage11.jpg) http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/thumbs/thumbs_halfcage12.jpg (http://nzeder.net/blog/wp-content/gallery/halfcage/halfcage12.jpg)

nzeder

08-22-2014, 10:27 AM

So that is/was the road car project (pervious few post on page 4). With MSNZ changing the main hoop size rule upgrading this cage to a full cage was out of the question therefore I purchased the full caged 260z at the start of this thread.

Now back to this flared car as I have been putting more of it back together to make room for the full caged car in the shed I was thinking why am I installing a modern twin cam engine (on carbs to look like the twin cam that nissan fitted to the s30 chassic in Japan). Given the body work replicates the Group 4 body work why don't I have 2 racing Datsun 260z. One to T&C rule (aka fully caged 260z with stock body work) and one schedule k/fia appendix j group 4 replica (aka flared Datsun 260z). I have enough period parts to build both these cars so that is what I have decided to do.

nzeder

08-22-2014, 11:06 AM

Oldfart

08-22-2014, 06:08 PM

I know how you feel Mike. Moving targets are never nice. The increasing costs of licences, COD etc haven't helped me one tiny bit to get back into events either.
Unfortunately the marketplace is full of m'sport cars which aren't selling so that choice is not easy either.
Personally I love the variety and the "all the same" leaves me dead cold. Even some of the so called Classic Car classes are a joke where the quoted HP figures are so far out of line with what the very best engine builders could get "in the day" turn it all into a joke. Your efforts to be period correct would have been great. Perhaps take a few deep breaths before pulling the plug entirely.
In my case closer to 50 years following the sport after the costs started to get out of hand it became more sideline than taking part. Oh for the "good old days" when it was affordable for any bloke.

Kiwiboss

08-22-2014, 11:42 PM

My idea of racing something different and 100% correct to the rules one car for T&C and one for Schedule K has been short lived I feel as with the latest update from the HMC who have stated the under 3l grid will not accept non saloon based production cars.

So I will have 2 classless cars both were to be 100% to the respective rules (I was going to get COD for both) but sounds like these are the types of cars people don't want to see on the track. They want more of the same saloons. So I have the wrong cars for racing in NZ it seems. So what is someone like me to do?

I am pleased ERC will allow me to run and that is where the T&C car will live once complete.

So I might as well just dump a V8 into the flared car and just do club days with that car? But then I would have to dump all the period brakes etc so I can stop the thing and be slightly competitive which is unlikely with a 40+ year old chassis design and not what I want to do.

A number of years ago I owned a very tidy Datsun 160jsss that I wanted to turn into a classic race car but with no grid for such a car I reluctantly sold the car (should not have let it go very rare car these days) this car would fit the under 3l saloon rule but as I don't have that car anymore that option has long gone.

Does make one just want to sell everything up and walk away from the sport I have followed for some 25+ years and that is classic racing, modern forms of the sport don't have the draw IMHO. Then just hop on my motorbike and never attend another classic race/event.

Settle down Mike as you are still on the rite track, all that's going to happen is having a Saloon car grid and Sports car grid(under K and T&C) and from time to time they will come together, there is more to this than I have time to type but come and talk to me at the Ice Breaker.

But as a point of interest even the likes of Tony Roberts corvette can't race with us been a sports Car and he's a HMC director but in the future at events like the Ice Breaker and Legends there will the two groups(as there is at the Festival and how its done overseas), I've had a person wanting to build a Pantera for HMC but as its a Sports car its not eligible, a Bowell Nagari was another, allowing these cars in would have a devastating effect on the field and drive away the saloon car owners.

Gotta run

Dale M

Paul Wilkinson

08-23-2014, 04:00 AM

Not to mention the fact that you'll have a beautiful car that is 'right' and that because of your diligence will increase in value greatly over the coming years and be internationally collectable like other Japanese exotics. Sometimes owning something beautiful is its own reward. It may not have a home for now but you'll get to race it and enjoy it. People who 'know' will appreciate it and why would you worry what those that don't, think?

nzeder

08-23-2014, 04:09 AM

nzeder

08-23-2014, 05:39 AM

But as a point of interest even the likes of Tony Roberts corvette can't race with us been a sports Car and he's a HMC director but in the future at events like the Ice Breaker and Legends there will the two groups(as there is at the Festival and how its done overseas), I've had a person wanting to build a Pantera for HMC but as its a Sports car its not eligible, a Bowell Nagari was another, allowing these cars in would have a devastating effect on the field and drive away the saloon car owners.

Gotta run

Dale Mok but in Tony's car case and like wise a Pantera or a Bowell Nagari none of these cars are under 3l so don't fit that class/group. So what has that got to do with the under 3l class? It is a shame cars like the 240z/260z, TR4, TR7, Lotus Elan, Arthur's Alfa are all excluded as the factory did not fit a back seat but Escort and other 2+2 can and can even remove the rear seats aka now 2 seaters. I guess that is the bit I don't understand. Why can't we just have under 3l production based classic cars. FIA defines Sports Cars as purpose built 2 seater specials built for just the track not the road and not mass produced. 2 seater production mass produced are usually called GT cars and where allowed on the same grids in period as other period production classes, sure might be in a different groups for points but on the same grid.

Kiwiboss

08-23-2014, 06:03 AM

ok but in Tony's car case and like wise a Pantera or a Bowell Nagari none of these cars are under 3l so don't fit that class/group. So what has that got to do with the under 3l class? It is a shame cars like the 240z/260z, TR4, TR7, Lotus Elan, Arthur's Alfa are all excluded as the factory did not fit a back seat but Escort and other 2+2 can and can even remove the rear seats aka now 2 seaters. I guess that is the bit I don't understand. Why can't we just have under 3l production based classic cars. FIA defines Sports Cars as purpose built 2 seater specials built for just the track not the road and not mass produced. 2 seater production mass produced are usually called GT cars and where allowed on the same grids in period as other period production classes, sure might be in a different groups for points but on the same grid.

Well now heres a great opportunity for you Mike, you should get in, start and organise(all voluntary just like me) a Historic Sports Car Class for U3L and O3L production Sports cars and deal with all the shit that goes with it because of the miss management of historic racing that has been in this country for years, anyway, when looking at most NZ and Australian historic racing these vehicles very rarely ran together if at all. I look at old Saloon car pictures from Baypark, Pukey and alike(early days) and these were always Saloons running together and this is what HMC is suppose to represent(just like the American Historic Trans Am) and I've always said from the get go that "Saloons" is what HMC is about but its funny how it gets watered down over time and that's why the brakes are coming on before our saloon guys go away and don't wanta race anymore.

PS: I don't mind helping you start this new Historic Production Sports Car class and im sure HRC and TACCOC will welcome it.

Dale M

nzeder

08-23-2014, 07:17 AM

Kiwiboss

08-23-2014, 09:11 AM

Thanks for clearing that up and I understand your point you are doing a good thing with HMC and V8 muscle cars have always been a popular car in Australia and NZ. The production based racing I always think of is in EU and Japan/Asia. Given I was living in Asia as a young child in the early 70's most of the cars I grew up with were Japanese or English/Euro. Australian or American cars where just not around in the numbers when I was young in Asia.

So my era is different (a 70's born gen xer) and I guess that is why 70's cars are my thing and under 3l given the 70's fuel crisis etc

Sure Mike we all grew up in different eras and this is what drives us to have different vehicles of interest, the most popular saloon racing was USA(off-course) England, South Africa(somewhat), Australian and NZ and that was about it although im sure some on here will state otherwise but im talking about the "main country's" that ran Saloon class's period, they/we all ran under FIA group 2 and 5 and even American Trans Am started out under FIA and then went onto there own thing(hence why there cars have removed bumpers, headlights, door glass, etc but must be refitted under HMC rules) and really the era HMC reflects is that 67 to 73/4 period but using T&C rules we allowed big bore saloons up to 12/77 and thats also why Escorts, early BMW's, Minis, Capris fit our HMC grid, it represents the era of our Motorsport history. Off-course the whole Japanese performance car thing really only got started in the early/mid 70's mainly for the American market and that's why you don't see much Japanese stuff in that early(67 to 72/3) period.Even in NZ it was end of that big banger/Sports Sedan era around 78 that Shell Sport became the class under MSNZ featuring many Japanese cars but still saloons and not 2 seater production Sports cars.

Currently with the "miss mash" of class's thought out the world countries like Australia, USA have cauterized there historic groups according to how they ran in the era, and/or outside that how the "Manufacturer" designated each vehicle if those vehicles didn't race in that country period, so it is general accepted that a 2 door 2 seater car is a Sports Car that is production based(even if the manufacture calls it a GT, early Porsche is one example) and a 2 and 4 door cars with 4 seats are a Saloon car production based and thats how most set up there class's(USA anyway) and that's why all must still have production manufactured body work and not what one may have been used in a given year in a particular country of origin, EG Japan or Asia for instances, but one can always go and race at historic events in Japan/Asian countries that accept their particular period race car class of there era(joking off-course).

Anyway thats just touching the surface and i could go on forever in finite detail but hopefully i've spelt out the general idea? and like i said at some smaller events these 2 groups will race together and at larger events race apart, not the end of the world and don't go of track with your build Mike, you're still doing it right.

PS: Bowell Nagaris were a Australian made production based Sports car(100 or more made to fit the criteria, Bowell made 600 i believe)that came fitted with engines from 186 Holdens to 351 Ford Clevelands and weighted about 900KG, ugly lookin think but someone originally wanted to build one for HMC hence why we now have an Eligibility list :)

Dale M

nzeder

08-23-2014, 10:40 AM

Kiwiboss

08-23-2014, 11:28 AM

Fair points. Me I like the grids of the period endurance series that is where 240z, TR4/5, Escorts RS1600, Alfas, Porsches, Mustangs, Camaros etc all racing at the same time ie Sebring, Daytona, Spa, Le Manns etc different classes but all running at the same time. Here is a link to the 1972 Sebring entry list.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Sebring-1972-03-25.html

And what a dream that would be Mike, for events like the Festival were its sprint racing EG: 8 to 12 laps were each historic class is broken down into its correct categories(as at Monterey, Goodwood, etc) having HMC(for over 3 saloons), Historic Saloon cars(U3L) Production Sports cars(O/U3L) racing individually as history dictates, and them from time to time all coming together for a Historic endurance event like they do at the Spa 6 hour meeting(even a 1 hour would be fun) BUT only historically correct cars allowed, now that really would be FUN.

Arrr old car Motorsport, don't yar just luv it, :)

Nittey Nite

Dale M

Steve Holmes

08-24-2014, 01:04 AM

Mike, you're a classic case of the right guy with the wrong car. By that I mean, you understand historic car racing, building a period correct car, and going historic racing for all the right reasons. Unfortunately, you're in love with a model of car that is a production sports car, in a country that has very little motorsport history for such cars, and as such, doesn't yet have the drive needed to create a dedicated class for such cars. Unfortunately for you, NZ is very much sedan racing lop-sided.

Dale is correct. HMC and the U3 saloon groups are for sedan cars, and not production sports cars. The reason for this is these groups have been created to replicate history. Back in period, saloon cars raced against saloon cars. And production sports cars raced against production sports cars. And the two rarely ever came together.

You are correct in that at some events the two did race on the same track at the same time. Daytona 24 Hours, Sebring 12 Hours, and Le Mans are classic examples. But in historic racing events around the world, generally the two groups are separated, because thats how they raced in period.

You're a classic Datsun guy. As you know, Datsun were trying to establish themselves in the US market in the late 1960s and early '70s, and they used motorsport to help achieve this. They contracted Pete Brock's BRE group to race cars in both sedan racing and production sports car racing. They ran Datsun 510s in the SCCA Trans-Am sedan racing 2.5 litre class, and Datsun 240Zs in B and C/Production sports car racing. But the 240zs weren't allowed to race with the Trans-Am cars, because they were a sports car.

In the US and Australia, and even in NZ, Porsche 911s were briefly considered sedan cars, and were allowed to race with the sedans. But even this was borderline, and the Porsches were kicked out of the Trans-Am after 1969, and the Australian Touring Car Championship after 1971. In NZ, a Porsche raced in the 1972 NZ Saloon Car Championship in 1972, but was thus sent away following that season, and was consistently protested by the other teams throughout. A Porsche also raced for a season in the Castrol GTX production series, but likewise was eventually banned. Essentially, the 911 was considered a production sports car, but their brief inclusion in sedan racing in period means they're often accepted into historic sedan grids today. But this was the exception, rather than the rule. Generally, sedans and sports cars had their own separate races and championships.

I could be wrong about this, but its my understanding its the cabin size that dictates whether its considered a sedan or sports car?

At the Australian Muscle Car Masters in a couple of weeks, CAMS Historic Group S will be competing. This is a dedicated class for production sports cars, and combines everything from 240Zs, to Shelby Cobras, Corvettes, Lotus Elans, MGs, De Tomaso Panteras, etc, that, in period, would have raced together. But Group S runs separately from Group Na/Nb/Nc Historic Touring Cars. Historic racing is about replicating history. It sucks, and it would be great to find a solution, but you can't change history unfortunately.

If you allow a 240Z to run with the saloons, you also have to allow Corvettes, TVR Griffiths, and other potentially very fast production sports cars as well, and this will only drive away the saloon car people and spread the field out. Its not period correct, and would cause more problems than it would solve.

An interesting side-note regarding this. We have one guy joining HMC/Under 3, who is a Nissan 300Z nut. He owns a collection of these cars, and has spent plenty of dosh on them. But he also really likes the idea of racing a period correct car, with like-minded enthusiasts. So he bought himself a Datsun 240K, a rare early Japanese sedan that is eligible to run, raced in period, and will be period correct. Food for thought?

Otherwise, wouldn't it be great to see a group established for period correct production sports cars. Now thats something that really has some potential.

nzeder

08-24-2014, 05:12 AM

So the question would be how about the 260z 2+2 these are a 4 seater with more passenger space unlike a rx7 or 911. One even appeared on the grid of one of the James Hardy 500 (or was it 1000 by then) in 1976 if I recall.

The ideal Nissan to race is the old Carlos Neate Nissan/Prince Skyline GTB as it was a sedan/saloon and raced here in NZ in period but it now is with a collector in Australia who does not race it....shame....

I personal don't buy in the 240z/260z as a sports car - GT car yes, sport car no. I say this due to the way the FIA classify cars under the rules of the day ie read the Appendix J for a period a 240z/260z raced in ie 1975 rules for Appendix J. A Datsun Zed car fits into the GT classes. Even the highly modified Group 4 240z/260z/280z raced under GTS in FIA, JAF (Japan's rep for FIA) or IMSA GTU. Sure some of the grid has "Sports Cars" as the FIA classified them - but I dislike a zed getting called a "Sports Car" as under FIA they are completely different cars/performance/cost. But that is just semantics to some no doubt - when I think I sports cars I think of Le Manns specials or cars with no roof's aka British Sports Cars.

Also see this a reference (not that wiki can be trusted all the time)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer
Notice the Nissan Zcar is listed as such a car.

If I could purchase my old 160jsss back or import a correct 510 or better yet a 260z 2+2 and swap stuff over has the bonus of 6" more wheelbase and 2" more room in the rear for 9" rims with out mods.

However that is if I want to run in a saloon based grid. If I was to look at saloon then I would consider other Nissan L6 powered cars - like an early Skyline - saloon car, which as you have pointed out Steve one of the models was marketed locally as a Datsun 240K factory fitted with the same L24 engine (slightly de-tuned version) as fitted to the Datsun 240z.

My only concern with choosing such a car is this part of the T&C rules (I almost purchase that car you talk of too many years ago but pulled out of the trademe auction letting it go to a fellow zed club member, and then got the 160j sss I talked about before)

3.6 Engine (1) Cylinder head(s) and block may be changed to one of the
same make and model range and must be visually
standard and be of standard material.

It does depend on how this rule is interpreted - if talking the car there could be issues as a Datsun 240k chassis unlike the 240z chassis was never factory fitted with a L28. So in theory it could not have one fitted as the L24 cc is 2393cc + 15% as allowed by T&C put it just under the stock L28 size at 2751cc vs 2753cc (2cc hardly worth pushing really given L24 engines are hard to come by these days but L28 are more common)

However if that rule is interpreted as just the engine then. L24 - became the L26 which in turn the L28 and they are all made from the same standard material and from the same make and model range aka the Nissan L6 range of engines.

So how does one interpret this rule? This could mean a fan of the Nissan L6 engines could ran a number of Nissan Saloon's for such a grid if one was to feel so inclined.

I know this meant to be my build thread but could I get answers to these questions.

1. Is a Datsun 260z 2+2 classed as a Saloon (as much passenger room if not more than other period saloon aka Escorts) I believe it should be as they were fia approved for group 1 aka same a escorts, capri ie a saloon.

2. Does the T&C engine rule apply to the engine made/model or car made/model range - of cause the cars age must reflect the engine age if later ie L24 = 1969, L28 = 1975 so any Datsun/Nissan fitted with an L28 needs to be aged as a 1975 cars (when the L28 was first FIA approved)

nzeder

08-24-2014, 07:50 AM

All of this does not change my mind on the fully caged car. It will be finished to T&C and I will run in ERC.

The flared car I will just finish it as intended have it mainly as a road car but I might see if it could pass as a replica Group 4 car under Schedule K

If I wanted to run in a HMC or the supporting U3L class I will just have to built a car to fit. Aka saloon - but would be good to have my 2 questions above answered - or clear up the interpretation of the engine rule.

Racer Rog

08-25-2014, 01:07 AM

Just carry on the way you are Mike, and come and race in the south Island, we will place you in a field of like cars, and I like the attion to the detail you are carrying out, I just wish more would do their home work in the same manner.
Roger

Bryan

08-26-2014, 12:53 AM

So the question would be how about the 260z 2+2 these are a 4 seater with more passenger space unlike a rx7 or 911.

1. Is a Datsun 260z 2+2 classed as a Saloon (as much passenger room if not more than other period saloon aka Escorts) I believe it should be as they were fia approved for group 1 aka same a escorts, capri ie a saloon.

The FIA Apendix J for 1972 (on the FIA website) is quite clear - a touring car had at least 4 seats, a GT car had at least 2 seats. Hence why Porsche could win the European Touring Car Championship with the 911. imho a 260Z +2 could potentially run in the HMC U3l class. It's interesting that sports cars like the 240Z, Lancia Stratos and Renault Alpine could run in international rallies.

I, for one, look forward to seeing you run in what ever class will let you in.:cool:

928

08-26-2014, 01:03 AM

if you got the relevant fia book with the seat measurements in and took the dimensions of a 4 seat 911 at the time the 911 did comply
the fia then changed the regs

John McKechnie

08-26-2014, 01:50 AM

if you got the relevant fia book with the seat measurements in and took the dimensions of a 4 seat 911 at the time the 911 did comply
the fia then changed the regs

The person making the decision probably decided to try the back seats and found they were just like the alleged back seats in XK 140 and XK150 Jags.

ERC

08-28-2014, 06:35 AM

if you got the relevant fia book with the seat measurements in and took the dimensions of a 4 seat 911 at the time the 911 did comply. The FIA then changed the regs.

As they do!

Being pragmatiic (as always...) there are varied opinions on this and quite frankly, much of it is 'bs' because life is full not just black and white, but also grey, especially if you take away self interest.

So you have an MGB sports - two doors and maybe a bench behind for a couple of tiny kids or legless dwarfs. Put a bolt on roof on it and it is still a sports car. However, a fixed roof and tailgate and it is a GT. They raced together in period and always have.
Stick the same engine and running gear into a full 4 seat Morris Marina with a sloping rear and what is it? Never a true GT in a million years nor a sports car, even with two doors.

BUT, does it really matter? We already have too many small classes without having an 'exclusion' philosophy.

Does a Morris Marina TC run happily against two door, 4/5 seat Falcons GTs, or even 240/260Zs? I think not.

Mike, we welcome your car and others deemed on the fringe, because in broad terms, it fits and we don't care a stuff if others want to nit pick over minor details, as when the flag drops, the b/s stops - especially so in handicaps. Historically 100% correct is fine - just as long as all the numbers stack up.

Race for fun as we (NZ), unlike the UK, can't ever field a full field of MGBs, let alone E Type Jaguars or GT 40's - or even Austin A35s built to a formula - at $70,000 a pop! (I think that was the figure quoted but I stand corrected.)

The stock of older vehicles is disappearing fast and will continue to do so. Every year it will get harder and harder to put together an interesting car, so if we are not careful, we will soon be swamped by a few identical makes/models where parts and spares are plentiful.

Oldfart

08-28-2014, 07:11 AM

ERC, your "quote" is somewhat out. 15k pounds all done. Still seems a hell of a lot to me, but they are well sorted ready to run cars so....

ERC

08-28-2014, 07:35 AM

Thanks Rhys. I knew the figure was high but my brain/memory is somewhat warped through the extensive travel and different time zones and currencies! I can't really see them getting a full grid, though the original UK pre 1957 Saloon series had some (limited modifications) A35s giving the Mk 1 Jags and Mk 2 Zephyrs a good run for their money. Much of that was due to handling packages.

nzeder

08-28-2014, 08:34 AM

Yes Ray you are right. Fun is what I want. I know I will never win, but having fun is me all the way. Why I have supported your series is the mix of makes and models, I love to see that. The handicap makes for great to watch motorsport and most of all the driving standard is a key focus plus all the competitors always have big smiles and all get a long with each other.

I don't see the need for yet another grid also....I will not make ice breaker as a competitor but will be supporting the erc cars/grid as I have done for the last 10 years.

My car is close but still in stored away from me but I will have the shed rearranged by next week so both my zeds will be here at home = will be easier to complete the track car.

nzeder

01-06-2015, 03:20 AM

Long time no update.

Well things have moved on some since my last update.

1. I now have both 260z 2 seaters in the shed at home.

2. The fully caged car has been completely rewired by me, still have some minor wiring to complete (gauges, and coil loom and wipers outstanding)

3. With the restructuring at my last place of employment I have been busy looking for new employment. Shortage of IT staff in NZ....yeah right if you are a programmer maybe but I know of 4 others with similar skills as I and we all have been looking for roles for 3-4 months.

With #3 above in mind this has made me take a step back and rethink racing a Datsun for the following reasons.

1. Panel parts are either NLA (no longer available) or just too expensive to obtain.
2. Mechanical parts are now becoming the same ie rear stub axles are hard to find and even though aftermarket items can be purchased (stronger than originals as they are 4340 then heat treated after the machining process) but a pair will set you back $1000NZD before shipping and customs take their cut.

I guess that is whay racing a classic is about but with my current income status I have decided once I complete the fully caged car I will put it on the market. So one 100% T&C compliant Datsun 260z (and that is 100% not partly using 5speed in car that never came out with one etc) will be available for purchase with a ton of spares or not depending on negotiations and price.

However I still want to race so I have purchased a Saloon not a GT like the Datsun Z car (not a sports car as there was never an open top model. Definition of a sports car = open top 2 seater and the hard top based on the same model).

This Saloon car still has panel and mechanical parts available new today and at much better price point than a Datsun Z car.

Anyway the saloon car project will not start until the 260z has moved on. Having said that here is some details on the saloon.

Garaged all its life it was NZ in March 1972 it has not been used on the road since 2004 and has been in storage since with the rego on hold. Only has minor rust in the front floor (common issue for these make/models) and a split in the battery box in the boot. It is white in colour with red interior (typlical 70's styling).

More later once I collect the car from down line later this week 15 hour road trip coming.

Cheers