Any chance of help with a problem?

[Ray Bell]

I'm sure Allen Brown's oldracingcars.com site is well known among you all here...

He has a mystery with the Cooper T58 originally raced by Jack Brabham in 1961 with the first of the Climax FWMVs in it.

It might help if he can see some pics of Jim Palmer's various Cooper mounts for the '62 and '63 seasons.

I'm sure there are pics around, probably already posted on a thread here somewhere, can we bring them together so the mystery might be solved please?

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
Did Jim Palmer really have a T 58 ?
I remember him in a T53 and a T 55 plus various Lotus race cars.
48791
Jack Brabham - Cooper Car Company - Cooper T58 FI-11-61/Climax Monza,1961 #F1 #Formula1

Ken H.
Ray, Best wishes for 2018.

[Michael Clark]

Ken, I don't think Ray is suggesting that but a question about Cooper's T58 has arisen on The Nostalgia Forum.

Jim raced the Bowmaker Cooper T55 in early 1963 - indeed racing it initially on his 21st birthday in the NZGP (the first at Pukekohe) and although the car was offered to the Palmers, the decision was made to buy the Hyslop T53 because it was a known quantity.

[khyndart in CA]

Whoops,
Perhaps I should take the time to read the question properly !
Here are 2 photos of Jim Palmer at Mount Maunganui. Dec. 1963. (One photo thanks to Milan Fistonic. )
48792

48793


(Ken H )

[Terry S]

Whoops,
Perhaps I should take the time to read the question properly !
Here are 2 photos of Jim Palmer at Mount Maunganui. Dec. 1963. (One photo thanks to Milan Fistonic

48793


(Ken H )

Was he leading Matich or being lapped, probably the later.

[khyndart in CA]

Terry,
I think you will find the answer here at this site. Jim was probably looking hard in the mirrors !

https://primotipo.com/tag/jim-palmer/

KH

[Milan Fistonic]

Palmer led at the start but was passed by Shelly before the end of lap one. Matich was third at that stage. Palmer re-took the lead on lap two before Matich moved ahead of Palmer and Shelly on lap three. On lap eight Matich had a four-second lead over Palmer but retired soon after.

I should have made it clear that this was the Mount Maunganui meeting in December 1963 when Palmer was using the ex-Hyslop car. I was answering Terry's question in post 5.

[Michael Clark]

That should answer Terry S's question.

[Ray Bell]

What about the car Palmer drove in the International races of early 1963?

[Kwaussie]

That should answer Terry S's question.

Probably not the answer Terry was expecting!

[Kwaussie]

What about the car Palmer drove in the International races of early 1963?

Think it was the Bowmaker car T55 FPF F1/2/61

[Ray Bell]

Allen points out that there were no 'T55' or 'T58' designations...


Firstly, as background, it's important to remember that the term "T58" was not used at the time. Cooper only invented their "T" number system in 1963, so the T58 was just the V8 Climax prototype to reporters in 1961 and 1962.

He also says this of the Bowmaker-owned F1/2/61:


One clue may be that Parnell had a spare Cooper for the 1963 'Tasman' races two months later. It's not obvious what that was, as Parnell had sold or wrecked all three cars they had taken out to the antipodes in 1962 (F1-1-61 to South Africa. F1-2-61 to Lex Davison and F1-4-61 wrecked by Salvadori). Could it be they took the T58 as their spare and that was the car raced by Jim Palmer? Photographs of Palmer's would be really useful.

So that car was already with Davison in '62.

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
Is this site of any use to Allen ?

https://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z13771/cooper-t55.aspx

Ken H

[Ray Bell]

Thanks, Ken...

I doubt that there's anything there that's new to Allen as he's most diligent in searching out cars' histories. That site does nothing to reveal where the car is now or what path it took, which is Allen's quest.

Already we see a potential clash of information, both Davison and Bowmaker owning F1/2/61 during 1962. Unless Kwaussie has the number wrong, this could well be a case of duplicate chassis numbers being used to confuse certain authorities and it could well be a clue to the life path of the T58.

[Terry S]

Whoops,
Perhaps I should take the time to read the question properly !
Here are 2 photos of Jim Palmer at Mount Maunganui. Dec. 1963. (One photo thanks to Milan Fistonic. )

48793

(Ken H )

I recall this was only the second meeting for Matich in the Brabham.

It arrived in Melbourne by ship, was trailered to Sydney, and given some practice laps at Warwick Farm short circuit.

Shortly after it was in its first race meeting at Warwick Farm on December 1, 1963. This race was the Hordern Trophy.
Matich and Stillwell were dicing for the lead when at half distance they tangled and both went off. Stillwell recovered to finish 4th.

Matich then shipped the car to NZ for the coming 1964 Tasman Series. He entered this race as a warm up.

PS isn't it nice to have a genuine historic thread rather than the fluffy stuff that plagues this forum.......

[Kwaussie]

There is a small photo of Jim Palmer in this link - http://www.sergent.com.au/motor/1963.html

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
In his book "Can-Am Challenger" Peter Bryant writes about his early career as a race team mechanic working for Reg Parnell.
On page # 117 he states regarding the first Grand Prix at Pukekohe in Jan. 1963.
" Reg Parnell had brought over one of last year's (1962 NZGP ) Tasman Coopers as a spare car and ended up loaning it to a young Kiwi named Jim Palmer."
So that would mean that the Jim Palmer car at the 1963 NZGP would have been a Cooper T 53.
But which one ? F1/1/61,(Surtees) F1/4/61,(Salvadori ) F1/2/61 (Lex Davison) or was there another Yeoman Credit car ?

48861
Jim Palmer. Pukekohe. Jan. 1963.


(Ken H )

[khyndart in CA]

Here is a scrapbook photo of John Surtees talking to Stirling Moss in dry weather at Ardmore in Jan. 1962.
John is in his Yeoman Credit Racing Team Cooper T53 F1/1/61. # 1
48870

In April 1961 John Surtees drove this rare model Cooper T53/ VR Climax for a brief period at the Syracuse Grand Prix.
(Note the almost Lola type body styling.)
48871



(Ken H)

[Terry S]

Ray,
In his book "Can-Am Challenger" Peter Bryant writes about his early career as a race team mechanic working for Reg Parnell.
On page # 117 he states regarding the first Grand Prix at Pukekohe in Jan. 1963.
" Reg Parnell had brought over one of last year's (1962 NZGP ) Tasman Coopers as a spare car and ended up loaning it to a young Kiwi named Jim Palmer."
So that would mean that the Jim Palmer car at the 1963 NZGP would have been a Cooper T 53.
But which one ? F1/1/61,(Surtees) F1/4/61,(Salvadori ) F1/2/61 (Lex Davison) or was there another Yeoman Credit car ?

48861
Jim Palmer. Pukekohe. Jan. 1963.


(Ken H )

According to Sergent's records Palmer drove

Cooper Climax T55 chassis F1-2-61 in 1963 NZ GP and 1963 Levin International

Cooper Climax T53 chassis F2-13-58 in 1964 Tasman Series (including Australia)

[Michael Clark]

We know that T53 'F2-13-58' is nonsense - Angus Hyslop took a car carrying that chassis plate to the UK and returned with a T53 that, for reasons of convenience, retained that plate.

A T53 could hardly have been built in 1958 - however Vercoe's book refers to the car having been 'low-lined' by Cooper...not the work of a moment. David McKinney was the most fastidious chassis number noter I have ever encountered. If the 'T55' wasn't 'F1-2-61', then I'd be amazed if he hadn't noticed it.

I am catching up with Jim in a few days - I'll ask him what he can recall.

[Ray Bell]

So you can see the problem with chassis number F1-2-61...

Quite likely the same kind of 'convenience' came into play with it.

Lex Davison purchased this from Bowmaker in February/March 1962 and raced it through until just a year later when he tried to punch holes in the Longford pub walls. Davison rebuilt a car using a spare chassis Brabham had and F1-2-61 was sold to Don Fraser in South Australia to reappear with a BRM engine in 1965.

So that chassis number left New Zealand in 1962 and was free to return without raising any questions in official places.

So it appears that the same chassis number was carried by the spare car brought to the Antipodes by Parnell/Bowmaker and loaned/leased/offered to Palmer for the 1963 season. Nine months after Davison's crash at Longford.

At the same time, it's definite that Bowmaker owned the T58 in November 1962, so that can't have been Davison's car. This car was fitted with a BRM V8 and practised for the Mexican GP.

Then disappeared...

Michael, whatever photos Jim might have of his 1963 mount could well give Allen some clues as to whether or not it was really the T58. This is the car he ran prior to getting the Hyslop car, the one in the little photo Ken has linked.

[Terry S]

We know that T53 'F2-13-58' is nonsense - Angus Hyslop took a car carrying that chassis plate to the UK and returned with a T53 that, for reasons of convenience, retained that plate.

A T53 could hardly have been built in 1958 - however Vercoe's book refers to the car having been 'low-lined' by Cooper...not the work of a moment. David McKinney was the most fastidious chassis number noter I have ever encountered. .

Michael, I see what you mean by "nonsense" chassis plates.

In 1961 Angus Hyslop raced a Cooper Climax T45 2 litre chassis F2-13-53

In 1962 - 63 Hyslop raced a Cooper Climax T53 2.5 litre but surprise surprise it had the same chassis number F2-13-58

This latter was the car bought by Palmer.

[Oldfart]

I was told close on 30 years ago at Cooper cars that they could not have told anyone which chassis was used anywhere. I went to visit while searching out a particular car, in fact what might have been the car used by Moss in Argentina. I was told they didn't have a ot of money to buy carnets for shipping the cars around the world for events, so they bought 3, which were specific to chassis plates. So, yes they could say which chassis plates were at an event, but what it was attached to....?
Nonsense plates, not really, very sensible! So at that time attributing a chassis number to any car, if Cooper themselves couldn't do it at the time, perhaps it would be rather difficult (I could use other less polite words) to be definitive now.
David McKinney and I conversed about this, he agreed with what I had been told as he had been told the same. As years moved on the customer cars became an area where it wasn't so difficult, what the customer did later wasn't the factory issue. As we know sometimes, again for customs reasons, a chassis might be "repaired" with a whole lot of new tubes.

[Ray Bell]

Oh, this car?

https://s26.postimg.org/t0hy5sfcp/coopercatalinalendeaton.jpg

This photo, taken by Bob Britton, was identified the first time I posted it on TNF as being Len Deaton in the ex-RRC Walker/Moss/Argentina car. From memory the story goes it went later to Ray Heffernan, who was killed in it (or when he came out of it) at Oran Park in 1966.

[Oldfart]

And yet at the same timeframe as this another chassis was in Coventry UK with an ex Sunbeam Tiger V8 in the back which was thought to be the car!

[khyndart in CA]

I found this Autosport on E-Bay and tried to improve on the Jim Palmer photo at Pukekohe. Jan. 1963.
Autosport. January 18. 1963.... edition.

(https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-ZEALAND-GP-1963-PUKEKOHE-JOHN-SURTEES-LOLA-GEORGE-SMITH-MCLAREN-ANGUS-HYSLOP-/252846886348?hash=item3aded94dcc:g:OxgAAOSwYmZXF9Eh )

48915

48916


(Ken Hyndman )

[Oldfart]

Wouldn't it be worth somebody giving Jim a call? He is very approachable and as far as I know still has a pretty extensive personal collection of information.

[Ray Bell]

I gather Michael is going to see him soon...

That picture would probably be available to Allen, Ken, I'll tip him off on that. That is a good start.

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
I know it was a hot day at Pukekohe in Jan. 1963 but does the extra small intake scoop under the front radiator mean anything in helping to identify Jim Palmer's Cooper ?
Ken

[Oldfart]

This is a request for assistance, nothing about the Cooper though. Can any of the Australian guys find a way for me to contact the Motoring Hall of Fame. I have tried CAMs and they don't reply. I have some specific questions relating to Wizard Smith.

[Milan Fistonic]

This is a request for assistance, nothing about the Cooper though. Can any of the Australian guys find a way for me to contact the Motoring Hall of Fame. I have tried CAMs and they don't reply. I have some specific questions relating to Wizard Smith.

I have sent you a PM

[Ray Bell]

Is it a secret, Milan?

I have no idea where and what it is, nor how to make contact. Can it be made public?

[khyndart in CA]

Australian Grand Prix
Warwick Farm, 10 Feb 1963
Retired
Jim Palmer (libre) 2.5-litre Cooper T53 ['P2'] - Climax FPF 4 #12 Bowmaker RT Lap 9 steering.


The 1964 NZ Grand Prix programme states;" Travelling with the Bowmaker car to Australia, Palmer put up some splendid practice times, but the car was not well prepared and broke down in a couple of races. "

Would this not be the car that Jim Palmer drove at Pukekohe at the 1963 NZGP ?




(Ken H)

[Oldfart]

Lots of "assumed" and "presumed" in that Ken! I note with interest "possibly using the carnet from F1-5-61" :)

[Ray Bell]

Yes, and those words from the very person who's still trying to prove what is what and where it all came from.

[khyndart in CA]

Here is some footage of the 1963 Australian Grand Prix at Warwick Farm. (With sound ! )
Jim is in a Cooper # 12 and can be seen at the 5 minute mark and also at the 12:26 point where he is battling with Tony Shelly ? before retiring on lap # 9.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp6-in-nIpM



(Ken H)

[Michael Clark]

Spoke to Jim - he doesn't think the Bowmaker car ever had a V8. He said they were offered it for 1500 quid but that it was heavy and would had to be de-stroked back to 2.5 whereas the Hyslop car already a 2.5 so was good to go.

[Ray Bell]

No pictures of it?

When the T58 left Cooper's it would have been stripped of all the V8 stuff, and I'm sure the 6-speed gearbox wouldn't have been with it either.

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
These may not be of much use but I took these off the 1963 Australian GP at the "Farm" Youtube movie showing Jim Palmer coming around in car # 12. Cooper # ??
49027

49028

49031


Jim was much happier driving this Cooper the following season.
49030
(March 1964 Hawkes Bay Photo News photo)


( Ken H)

[Terry S]

Ray,
These may not be of much use but I took these off the 1963 Australian GP at the "Farm" Youtube movie showing Jim Palmer coming around in car # 12. Cooper # ??

( Ken H)

Interesting article here on Jim Palmer.

I particularly love the hay bales used to narrow the Renwick circuit in the opening photo.

https://primotipo.com/2018/01/02/renwick-50-and-jim-palmer-new-zealand-1965/

[Terry S]

Ray,
These may not be of much use but I took these off the 1963 Australian GP at the "Farm" Youtube movie showing Jim Palmer coming around in car # 12. Cooper # ??
49027

49028

49031


Jim was much happier driving this Cooper the following season.
49030
(March 1964 Hawkes Bay Photo News photo)


( Ken H)

Interesting article here on Jim Palmer

I particularly love the hay bales used to narrow the Renwick street circuit in the opening photo

https://primotipo.com/2018/01/02/renwick-50-and-jim-palmer-new-zealand-1965/

[khyndart in CA]

November 1963.
Renwick Race.
Jim Palmer in ex Hyslop Cooper-Climax with his favorite number 41
49039
(Euan Sarginson photo )

[Ray Bell]

Thanks for the pics, Ken...

Funnily enough, the roll bar looks right. But the fuel filler doesn't!

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
Do you think the filler is much different than what John Surtees has on his Cooper at Ardmore Jan. 1962 ?
49065
Jan. 1962.

49067
Jim Palmer. Feb. 1963.

This is a clearer view of the fuel filler when the Cooper T 53 was first tested by John Surtees under the watchful eye of Reg Parnell (on the left) at Goodwood in 1961.
49077




(Ken H )

[John McKechnie]

November 1963.
Renwick Race.
Jim Palmer in ex Hyslop Cooper-Climax with his favorite number 41
49039
(Euan Sarginson photo )

Question- Jim Palmer favourite number was 41 and he put it on his Porsche 911 for the 1971 season, would that be why Coppins changed his number from 41 ( 1970 season) to 141 (1971 season) ?
John Riley then went from 141 to 222

See #60 for these 2 cars together.

#60
http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?1885-Motor-Racing-pics-my-early-years-1964-71-Pukekohe-Racetrack-by-Roger-Dowdingl/page3&highlight=coppins

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by khybndart in CA
Ray,
Do you think the filler is much different than what John Surtees has on his Cooper at Ardmore Jan. 1962?

Sorry to take so long to reply, Ken...

Photos of the T58 show no signs of a filler cap on the side at all. Though the rollover bar seems similar to the one on the car Palmer drove in early '63.

[Kwaussie]

Sorry to take so long to reply, Ken...

Photos of the T58 show no signs of a filler cap on the side at all. Though the rollover bar seems similar to the one on the car Palmer drove in early '63.
The lack of filler cap on that side is maybe conclusive. The rollover bar height is similar to a few Coopers of that era, need more proof that it is the same as T58

[Ray Bell]

Height may be the same, but the shape is different on most...

And the fuel fillers might have originally hidden under bodywork and became exposed when holes were cut. The things we don't know.

[Allen Brown]

I am most grateful to Ray and everyone for trying to solve this long-standing problem. The photographs certainly suggest that Palmer's car was a standard(ish) Lowline "T53", not the "Slimline" design of the "T58".

As to which T53 he had, I think that will be very difficult to ascertain. Parnell's team acquired three production T53s for 1961 but almost immediately were racing four of them, and it looks to me that they may have made up a fifth at some point. Parnell later did the same with Lotus 21s and Lotus 24s, so the extra cars should not be a surprise. I have used the identity "P2" for the Palmer car. To reiterate my justification for this:


The name 'P2' is given here to the fourth standard T53 used by Yeoman-Credit in 1961. As well as the three cars that appear in Cooper records (F1-1-61, F1-2-61 and F1-4-61), they produced a streamliner known as "VR", one extra standard car and later a T56-based car. When the T56-based car appeared at Monza, Denis Jenkinson noted that this brought their team strength to six, two F1s, two ICs and now two specials. The Formula 1 Register developed the notation 'P1', 'P2', to denote extra cars built by the Parnell team and their notation is used for "VR" ['P1'] and the extra standard car ['P2'].

As Ray so wisely says, "The things we don't know."

[Michael Clark]

Allen, when you refer to "Palmer's car" - are you referring to the Bowmaker 'T55' he had use of in the pre-Tasman series of '63, or the car that they subsequently purchased - i.e. the 'T53' that carried a T45 chassis plate?

Jim recalls them as being similar cars but where the 55 "felt a heavier car"

[Ray Bell]

The Bowmaker car, that's what this thread's all been about...

[Kwaussie]

The Bowmaker car, that's what this thread's all been about...

So what happened to this heavy 2.7 T53/55 that came to New Zealand twice then to Australia with Jim Palmer. Did the car return to NZ, remain in OZ or was it shipped back to GB after the Australian series.

[Ray Bell]

Did that car go to NZ twice?

According to Allen's site all three 1962 Bowmaker Coopers used in NZ and Australia were crashed or sold. That's quoted on an earlier page of this thread.

The team toured in '63 with two Lolas fitted out with 2.7-litre engines and the car Palmer used was their spare. It never remained in Australia.

[Kwaussie]

From notes -- Cooper FPF 2495cc F1/2/61 John Surtees NZ 1962
-- Cooper FPF 2707cc F1/2/61 Bowmaker/JP NZ 1963

It may have stayed in NZ during 1962 and they fitted a spare 2.7 for 1963?

[Kwaussie]

Did that car go to NZ twice?

According to Allen's site all three 1962 Bowmaker Coopers used in NZ and Australia were crashed or sold. That's quoted on an earlier page of this thread.


What post number was that Ray - I have looked back but can't see it on an earlier page. Cheers

[Ray Bell]

Sorry, that must have been on the other thread...

However, on this one we certainly had the discussion about F1/2/61 having been sold to Lex Davison in early 1962 and subsequently crashed, moving on to Don Fraser for some years.

[Kwaussie]

Sorry, that must have been on the other thread...

However, on this one we certainly had the discussion about F1/2/61 having been sold to Lex Davison in early 1962 and subsequently crashed, moving on to Don Fraser for some years.

Yes maybe but nothing to do with the Bowmaker car that you say we are talking about on this thread .

[Kwaussie]

Sorry, that must have been on the other thread..

Can you please tell us about " the other thread" or are we not privy to a separate little chat?

[Ray Bell]

http://forums.autosport.com/topic/208541-the-cooper-climax-t58/#entry8214649

And it's not there ether... I must have just taken what was needed from Allen's site and used that here.

Of course F1/2/61 is nothing to do with this discussion. Even if that was the chassis number recorded for the car we are talking about!

[khyndart in CA]

What post number was that Ray - I have looked back but can't see it on an earlier page. Cheers

Kwaussie,
This was Ray's input on # 12 post.
"Allen points out that there were no 'T55' or 'T58' designations...
Firstly, as background, it's important to remember that the term "T58" was not used at the time. Cooper only invented their "T" number system in 1963, so the T58 was just the V8 Climax prototype to reporters in 1961 and 1962. He also says this of the Bowmaker-owned F1/2/61:

]One clue may be that Parnell had a spare Cooper for the 1963 'Tasman' races two months later. It's not obvious what that was, as Parnell had sold or wrecked all three cars they had taken out to the antipodes in 1962 (F1-1-61 to South Africa. F1-2-61 to Lex Davison and F1-4-61 wrecked by Salvadori)[/[/SIZE]I].
[I]Could it be they took the T58 as their spare and that was the car raced by Jim Palmer? Photographs of Palmer's would be really useful. So that car was already with Davison in '62."