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View Full Version : The 'Other' Ferrari 250 GTO



Steve Holmes
04-22-2011, 12:10 AM
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In 1960, New Zealand businessman and enthusiast racing driver Pat Hoare made a trip to Maranello to purchase a V12 engine for his Ferrari 625 (ex de Portago, Hawthorn and Gonzales) to replace its problematic 4 cylinder unit. Hoare was a personal friend of Enzo Ferrari, and it was Enzo who'd had Hoare's 'Tasman special' 625 fitted with its larger 2996cc engine when he purchased it in 1957.

But rather than return to NZ with a V12 engine in 1960, Hoare returned with a whole car. He ended up purchasing a Dino 256, chassis 0007, the car driven to victory at that years Monza GP by Phil Hill, and the last front engined car to win a Formula 1 Grand Prix. The 256 (originally designated 246 when it was built in 1958, but modified in '59, and given a new designation) had raced with a Dino V6 engine, usually around 2414cc, throughout its GP career, but the Tasman rules, being those used in both New Zealand and Australia, allowed for engines up to 3000cc. Therefore, Ferrari had the 256 fitted with a 2953cc 60 degree V12 Testa Rossa motor, one of the engines usually used in the teams 250TR sports cars. Producing over 330hp, the V12 was around 50hp up on that of the smaller Dino V6.

Hoare qualified the 256 14th for the New Zealand Grand Prix at Ardmore in January 1961, and finished 7th behind a star-studded cast, including race winner Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, Graham Hill, Ron Flockhart, Denny Hulme, and Jim Clarke. The Ferrari was the first front engined car home. Hoare finished 2nd to Hulme in the Dunedin Road Race in a much depleted field that included few internationals. A 4th placed finish behind Jo Bonnier, Roy Salvadori, and Hulme at the Teretonga International, and victory in the Waimate 50 road race, against a New Zealand driver line-up, were other highlights of the 1960/61 season.

For the 1961/62 season, Hoare was again the local star in the New Zealand Grand Prix, qualifying 11th, and finishing 6th, behind Stirling Moss, John Surtees, McLaren, Salvadori, and Lorenzo Bandini, and again the big Ferrari was the first front engined car home. He won the Dunedin Road Race, and placed 2nd in the Waimate 50 behind Jim Palmer, and emerged from the '62 season as the winner of the New Zealand Car Clubs Racing Gold Star, for New Zealand drivers.

Sadly, Motorsport New Zealand introduced a 2.7 litre engine limit following the '62 season, deeming the magnificent 256 ineligible. No longer would the buildings of Dunedin and Waimate rattle to the sound of its booming V12. Hoare placed the car on the market, but unsurprisingly, there was little interest in the outdated racer with its over-sized engine, and it sat for some time before Hoare decided to convert the Ferrari for road use.

He considered the different road going Ferrari options available, but there was really only one choice. Given the 256 was a race car, the logical option was that it be built into a 250 GTO, a close replica of the 1963 notchback models. Hoare had Enzo supply him with blueprints of the '64 GTO, along with some components including the large wrap-around windscreen. Firstly, the plans, which were in metric, were converted by an architect friend of Hoare's. They also had to be modified, as the 256 had a wheelbase 6” shorter than the GTO. At 6 foot tall, Hoare would struggle to fold his large frame inside a genuine GTO, so his shorter example would need to account for this.

Hoare's long-time racing mechanic Ernie Ransley removed the single seater body-work from the Ferrari, which, fortunately, was kept and stored. Ransley then set about the task of converting the steering from central-steer to right hand drive, for the local NZ roads.

Hec Green, a very clever New Zealand race car designer, was given the job of building the tubular framework on which the body could be shaped and mounted. The frame-work itself was a work of art, as it had to follow the exact contours of the curvaceous GTO lines. Once that was fitted to the chassis, the car was sent to a local coach-building firm, G. B. McWhinnie and Co, where Reg Hodder, a metal craftsman with over 40 years experience, shaped the body from sheets of16 gauge aluminium, over a 9 week period. G. B. McWhinnie and Co also applied the Ferrari red paint work.

Once the bodywork was completed, the Ferrari was sent to 18 year old George Lee, who crafted the interior, which included semi-reclining bucket seats, and fully upholstered door cards, dashboard top, and transmission tunnel, all covered in leathercloth. Curiously, all the instrument gauges were mounted on the left side of the dashboard, the opposite to where the driver sat.

From most angles, the Hoare 256 closely resembled a genuine GTO. From a side profile, the shorter wheelbase was more pronounced with the cabin side windows being extremely short, but overall, this was an extremely high quality conversion, and all New Zealand made. Indeed, this was part of Hoare's motivation for converting the 256, to showcase New Zealand craftsmanship.

All the 256 running gear was retained, as well as the wheels, brakes, suspension, steering wheel, and even the clear perspex cover on the bonnet, that housed the 12 gleaming trumpets of the six Weber carbs.

Weighing in at around 700kg, the Hoare Ferrari was around 200kg lighter than a genuine GTO, had around 30hp more, and with its independent rear suspension, was considered to be the fastest fully equipped road going Ferrari in the world, even by Enzo Ferrari.

Hoare enjoyed the Ferrari for a few years until his death, at which point it was purchased by Logan Fow, who took part in a number of club racing events and standing sprints, recording a 13.9 for the quarter mile. It was later owned by Donald McDonald, who attempted to break the 3.0 litre New Zealand land speed record in 1969, coming up just short with 144mph (233kph) and 155mph (249.6khp).

The Ferrari was eventually purchased by Neil Corner, along with all the original 256 bodywork, and restored back to its Tasman guise by Crosthwaite and Gardiner. The only original item that couldn't be used in the restoration was the perspex carburettor cover, which had discoloured with time.

David McKinney
04-26-2011, 07:57 AM
Very thoroughly researched story, Steve
But you've fallen into one trap...
Pat Hoare didn't stop racing the single-seater because of any change of formula. The last season he raced it was 1962, and the new limit didn't come in till 1964.
After 1962, he knew he'd need a rear-engined car to remain competitive, but when Ferrari could not, in the end, supply one, he decided to retire from racing.
He tried to sell the front-engined single-seater but there were no takers. It was then that he decided to convert it to a road car
Also, Don Macdonald didn't own the car - the record attempt was while it was still in Logan Fow's ownership

Steve Holmes
04-26-2011, 08:12 AM
Thanks for your input David, fantastic to have you on board. I have to admit I relied on Graham Vercoe's book (The Golden Era...) and its explanation in regards to the 2.7 litre engine capacity being introduced for the 62/63 season. Do you know what became of the GTO bodywork following the cars restoration in the UK? Did the Corners keep it?

David McKinney
04-26-2011, 11:03 AM
I believe the GT body was removed before the car left NZ, and still exists somewhere. Just where, I don't know

Steve Holmes
04-26-2011, 05:20 PM
Well that is interesting David. I wonder if it'll ever surface. Here is a photo I took of the car at Silverstone back in the '90s.

63

David Manton
04-26-2011, 06:20 PM
Hi Steve,
Good to see the article on Pat Hoare's GTO conversion. There are several incorrect points in it, one being Logan Fow buying the car on Pat's death. Logan purchased the car in 1967...three years before Pat died. There's a book coming out soon on the story of Pat Hoare and Enzo Ferrari.

David McKinney
04-26-2011, 06:32 PM
Pretty sure that's a different car in your photo, Steve
Bloke in the overalls is Tony Merrick, who at that time was looking after a couple of later-built V6 replicas. Have to confess I don't recognise the helmeted figure, but it's not Neil Corner or his son, who were the ex-Hoare car's only drivers in the '90s
It's the right model, though...

Later: I note you mentioned in another thread that you were at the 1993 Silverstone Festival. The Corner car was the only Dino entered at that meeting. This means (a) you were there more than one year, (b) your photo was taken at a pre-event test-day, (c) the Merrick car was a late entry, or (d) I'm talking through a hole in my hat

Steve Holmes
04-26-2011, 06:49 PM
Yes well spotted David. You are correct. I had the photo amongst several others I'd taken at the event, in which the Corner Ferrari was competing. The obvious differences are the height of the perspex cover on the bonnet, the height of the windshield, and the mirrors, which on the Corner car are red. Well spotted. The Dino pictured above was driven during the lunchtime displays, and yes thats Tony Merrick next to it.

nigel watts
06-16-2011, 08:07 AM
During the 1960's I was an avid reader of "Motorman" and purchased a number of 6x8 black and white photographs from Jack Inwood that I had seen in the magazine [still got all the mags too]
Here's a Jack Inwood image of Pat Hoare's Ferrari as fabricated by Ferris de Joux

712

Steve Holmes
06-16-2011, 06:12 PM
Thats fantastic Nigel! The car wasn't to everyones liking. Some thought it was pretty ugly. It looks good from that angle though. Just proves what a great photographer Jack Inwood was.

David McKinney
06-17-2011, 09:13 AM
But the body wasn't made by Ferris de Joux, Nigel

The De Joux-bodied Ferrari was the ex-Roycroft 4.5-litre car

nigel watts
06-17-2011, 09:30 AM
Ok, I stand corrected. I don't know why but I've always thought it was built by de Joux

AMCO72
06-24-2011, 08:15 PM
I remember when Logan had the car in Hamilton. It didnt seem to come out much...the odd standing sprint and a few car shows. Logan was a bit of a character round the town. I think his family had a few bob which maybe enabled Logan to buy the car. He was a great kite-flying enthusiast and was seen on occasion taking his budgie for a walk, in its cage, across the railway bridge in Hamilton, with Logan chatting away to it!!!!!!!!!I kid you not. Amazing car though......actually I wished it had been left as a GTO....sort of a one off. There are plenty of single seaters, real and rep, around. Shame.

Steve Holmes
06-25-2011, 12:21 AM
I tend to agree Gerald, its a shame it had to be returned to its GP guise in some respects, though I can understand why this was done. Some people thought the Hoare 250GTO was ugly. It certainly has a few design compromises because of the shorter wheelbase and the need to fit Pat Hoare's tall frame inside it somehow, but its hard to see how they could have done any better.

David McKinney
06-25-2011, 07:50 AM
.....actually I wished it had been left as a GTO....sort of a one off. There are plenty of single seaters, real and rep, around. Shame.
There are now, but when Neil Corner bought it, it was the only front-engined Dino Ferrari single-seater in existence

Steve Holmes
06-27-2011, 12:04 AM
Then again, having seen it race in the hands of Nigel Corner, himself a bloody good pedaller, and with that howling V12, it makes for an amazing car in its current guise. Not to mention, a memorable one.

David McKinney
06-27-2011, 11:28 AM
Funny you should mention that, Steve. I saw Neil's first race in it (Long Beach 1980) and on countless occasions in Europe in later years. Somehow the sound was never quite as I remembered it - until he took it to Spa one year. Don't know what the difference was, but that one time I was instantly transported back to 1961-62

David McKinney
06-27-2011, 11:45 AM
As we don't have a dedicated books thread, this might be a suitable place to mention that Enzo Ferrari's Secret War, by modest RS member David Manton, is now available. It has a lot about Pat Hoare and the GTO conversion, amidst lots of other fascinating revelations
Details at http://www.ferrarisecretwar.com/buy.html

Steve Holmes
06-28-2011, 01:01 AM
Funny you should mention that, Steve. I saw Neil's first race in it (Long Beach 1980) and on countless occasions in Europe in later years. Somehow the sound was never quite as I remembered it - until he took it to Spa one year. Don't know what the difference was, but that one time I was instantly transported back to 1961-62

Did you ever find out why it sounded different David?

Steve Holmes
06-28-2011, 01:07 AM
As we don't have a dedicated books thread, this might be a suitable place to mention that Enzo Ferrari's Secret War, by modest RS member David Manton, is now available. It has a lot about Pat Hoare and the GTO conversion, amidst lots of other fascinating revelations
Details at http://www.ferrarisecretwar.com/buy.html

David, perhaps we need a dedicated books thread. I'd love to hear feedback on what others have read, and what their thoughts are. David Manton's book sounds fantastic. David Manton (or David McKinney), please feel free to start a thread on this book. I'm sure people on here would be very interested to know more.

David McKinney
06-28-2011, 09:39 AM
Did you ever find out why it sounded different David?
No I didn't. Just put it down to the acoustics of the setting (though Spa is hardly like any NZ circuit I can recall :D )
Maybe they'd made some change to the exhaust system for the faster circuit, which brought the note closer to my memory

GD66
06-28-2011, 10:39 AM
As we don't have a dedicated books thread, this might be a suitable place to mention that Enzo Ferrari's Secret War, by modest RS member David Manton, is now available. It has a lot about Pat Hoare and the GTO conversion, amidst lots of other fascinating revelations
Details at http://www.ferrarisecretwar.com/buy.html



Excellent call, David. I've fired in an order for a copy with amazon.com, at the mo the book is listed as Not Yet Available, however they are very good and will always email you when your order is about to be dispatched. Has all the ingredients of a genuine Ripping Yarn !

Chris
07-06-2011, 06:33 AM
I have fond memories of this car. Logan Fow was my teacher at primary school in the 60's and he'd often bring it to school where I would literally stare at it in awe until the morning bell rang. I can still picture the scrapping of its underside as he drove it over the curbing into the school car park... and the engine sound, don't even get me started on that!
I also went to his house several times (my aunt was also a teacher at the same school) in the hope of getting a glimpse or (better still) a ride in this amazing machine... there was nothing else like it and it certainly had a big impact on me.

As for Logan, I understand he wasn't short of a penny and was only teaching for the love of it. I understand his families wealth came from Turners and Fows (later to become Turners and Growers). Logan was probably the most eccentric person I've ever known, but in the best possible way... and yes, his house was full of kites. :)

Steve Holmes
07-07-2011, 11:35 PM
Hey Chris, great story!

rogered
07-23-2011, 09:36 AM
Then again, having seen it race in the hands of Nigel Corner, himself a bloody good pedaller, and with that howling V12, it makes for an amazing car in its current guise. Not to mention, a memorable one.

Just off the top of my head, was this the same chassis that was cartwheeled at a goodwood revival a couple of years back? pretty sure it was Mr corner that was dispatched from behind the wheel

Steve Holmes
07-23-2011, 09:44 AM
Hi there Roger, yes it was. I think the crash stirred up talk of more safety equipment such as compulsory rollecages being fitted to these cars to which the Corner's responded by saying they would retire their cars immediately if that happened.

rogered
07-23-2011, 10:00 AM
hello Steve, this site(which appears is you creation ) is fantastic. I have only come across this evening,
On the ferrari subject i had a funny feeling this was rebuilt back to Phill hill spec with V6 dino engine?
Am i correct???????

David McKinney
07-23-2011, 10:16 AM
Hi there Roger, yes it was. I think the crash stirred up talk of more safety equipment such as compulsory rollecages being fitted to these cars to which the Corner's responded by saying they would retire their cars immediately if that happened.
That doesn't ring any bells
Nigel did run the car once or twice after that
It's the millionaires' insurance companies, not wimpy drivers, who are behind the pressure for rollover bars

Howard Wood
08-13-2011, 05:22 AM
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Howard Wood
08-13-2011, 05:37 AM
As posting those photos took more than all my computer skills, I couldn't figure how to include text: These are some photos I took when we removed the NZ built GTO bodywork from the Ferrari before sending it off to Neil Corner. The original single seater chassis was remarkably intact and original underneath when the bodywork was removed, including the rear mounted fuel and oil tanks even down to most of the single seat body mounts etc.. Logan had either got the single seater bodywork when he bought the car from Pat Hoare or acquired it subsequently but it was all there and intact when we shipped the car. Logan took the GTO bodywork away as Neil Corner had no interest in it.

AMCO72
08-13-2011, 09:08 PM
What neat pictures posted by Howard of the 'naked' GTO, obviously on Logans drive. Wonder what happened to the bodywork as it apparently didn't go with the rest of the car. Howard do you know? Does anyone know whether Logan is still alive, as there doesn't seem to be a listing in the telephone directory, not that that means anything. Wouldn't it be great to have a chat to him about the GTO in his ownership. Restored PROPERLY today that would be one hell of a car.

AMCO72
08-14-2011, 02:59 AM
I'm sure it must have been Logan who christened the GTO...'CHARLOTTE'..... Doesn't sound like something the ever-so proper Mr Hoare would have called it. I suppose 'Charlotte' conjures up an image of a beautiful woman. The GTO was certainly that. And it appears that Logan is no longer with us.....one of Hamiltons characters thats for sure. I have a rather nice, and very complicated kite which always reminds me of Logan.....can still see him down on Innes Common trying to tame some contraption he had coaxed into the air.

Howard Wood
08-14-2011, 05:24 AM
Logan always referred to the car as "Charlotte" but I have no idea about the name's origin. Logan died several years ago and was a most eccentric but engaging person. His Grandfather was a 4 times mayor of Hamilton during the '20's and the Fow's Furniture (or was it Flooring) store in central Hamilton was one of the family businesses.

The photos are actually taken in front of my parent's house in Hamilton where John Anderson and I removed the body after I brokered the sale to Neil Corner. I was back in NZ for the Jan '78 Formula Pacific series but had had a major pre season testing accident at Puke (after a mechanical failure but doesn't everyone say that) and was in plaster waiting to go back into hospital for more bone grafts at the time so had a bit of time on my hands!

I understand the "GTO" bodywork still exists, to me the proportions didn't look right and it really was the most impractical road car imaginable. Although many people, including on this forum, think it was a loss to change the car back but it was the last Ferrari front engined Formula One car and I still think that is the correct historical spec for it. At least that's how I rationalised it at the time!

AMCO72
08-14-2011, 06:14 AM
Howard, you say....'thats how I rationalized it at the time'.....it sounds as though you had serious doubts that you were doing the right thing back then!

Howard Wood
08-14-2011, 07:52 AM
I did, but only as regards the car leaving NZ. The continuation and preservation of the car was more more certain with Neil Corner's money and Dick Crostlewaithe and John Gardiner's restoration skills than by being driven on NZ roads by Logan.

Oh, and I had just destroyed my race car, my "career" was toast, I was completely broke as well as broken so I needed the commission money from the Ferrari sale.

Steve Holmes
08-14-2011, 08:18 PM
Wow, Howard, those are wonderful photos! Thanks so much for posting them.

Oldfart
08-29-2011, 08:01 AM
I had the pleasure of driving this car when Logan owned it. He also was a very keen caver and often threw all his muddy overalls and stuff in the car!
He picked up a hitchhiker when on his way to Wellington. Apparently the poor guy hardly spoke after about Cambridge, and Logan was somewhat surprised that he was not thanked for the 6 hour trip.
The reverse gear fitted by the Hoare empire is another story in itself.

Steve Holmes
08-29-2011, 08:21 PM
Great story Oldfart! What was the Ferrari like to drive?

AMCO72
08-30-2011, 06:54 AM
Oldfart, please tell us what it was like to drive the GTO, because I'm sure there are lots of us on here who would like a first hand description. Imagine driving it to Wellington!!!!! Logan must have been a TRUE enthusiast. Wonder how many miles to gallon it did, not that it mattered to him, and the fact that it must have been reasonably tractable to do that sort of journey. Still I think your senses would be somewhat dulled after 6 hours in that cockpit. I can imagine the hitch-hiker clasping his groin in an attempt to protect vital organs from the gears, when then eventually escaped from the box!!!!! All that singing and whining must have kicked up quite a racket. And what about the heat? I'm not even sure that the windows rolled down, but they may have. A pioneer motorist if ever there was one. Brings back memories of Ron Roycroft driving the Bugatti from one end of the country to the other. Tough guys.

Kwaussie
09-29-2011, 12:17 PM
Jackie Stewart drove this car in two seat form at Wigram on the Friday practice day in 1966?
Lots of photographers were around the Ferrari when he came in but I have never seen a photograph of the occasion - someone from Christchurch must have a copy somewhere!

David McKinney
09-29-2011, 02:29 PM
There's one in David Manton's recently published book Enzo Ferrari's Secret War

Oldfart
09-30-2011, 05:04 AM
Somebody asked what it was like to drive. Remember this was 1967. Now just because I drove it, does NOT mean that I gave it any "welly", in fact I thought it was a bit of a bucket of bolts. My sports car, TF replica with a B series was actually nicer to drive. Obviously not the performance, but the GTO rattled and shook and banged around some. The box was not easy to use, and in all reality it took away any enthusiasm for the Prancing Horse which is yet to return. I suspect that being able to use it on other than suburban streets might have been a lot different.
When Logan negotiated to buy the car, one of his stipulations was that it must have reverse gear.
Not long after he got it back to Hamilton reverse failed, when the transaxle was pulled down it was soon apparent why. Someone in Christchurch had simply taken out a set of gears, and replaced them with sprockets and chain. This might have worked, had something a bit stronger than pushbike chain been used! The other notable thing was the bits of road metal inside the case!
One of the other memorable things was the use of the fuel tank from the single seater days, this meant that to fill it you reached inside with the fuel nozzle and filled approximately where the parcel shelf would have been on any other car. Of course the fumes hung round too, as well as any spillage.
Logan was an inveterate collector, had most of the remaining Mistrals in his yard at the time.

driftwood
12-29-2011, 11:24 PM
WOW this is an interesting thread !!
Im not into this era of car probably cos I'm too young but the car owners are themselves as interesting as the car
Will we ever see people like them again??
How many racing Ferrari cars where in NZ?
not just passing thru to race but lived there?
Im not a ferrari fanatic but i think a ferrari living in NZ is more interesting than any ferrari living anywhere else in the world
Logan sounds like an interesting character and can you imagine being at school and your teacher effectively comes to school in an F1 car WOW !

Steve Holmes
12-29-2011, 11:46 PM
WOW this is an interesting thread !!
Im not into this era of car probably cos I'm too young but the car owners are themselves as interesting as the car
Will we ever see people like them again??
How many racing Ferrari cars where in NZ?
not just passing thru to race but lived there?
Im not a ferrari fanatic but i think a ferrari living in NZ is more interesting than any ferrari living anywhere else in the world
Logan sounds like an interesting character and can you imagine being at school and your teacher effectively comes to school in an F1 car WOW !

Well probably the most significant Ferrari that held NZ ownership would be the 375 that Froilan Gonzales raced to victory at the British GP in 1951. This car spent many years in NZ, owned and raced by Ron Roycroft.

Perhaps the most colourful Ferrari, as far as its post GP racing history goes, was the 555 that ended up being fitted with a Morris Minor body and small block Chevy motor: http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?76-The-Morrari-recreation&highlight=morrari

David McKinney
12-30-2011, 09:51 AM
...the 375 that Froilan Gonzales raced to victory at the British GP in 1951
Prove it:)
There's a lot of dispute (outside NZ) about this. There seems no doubt the Roycroft car was 375/2, the same number as the Gonzalez British GP winner. But was the Gonzalez 1951 375/2 the same as the 375/2 supplied to Rosier in 1952 (and hence to Roycroft)?
(I don't know the answer)

David McKinney
12-30-2011, 09:58 AM
WOW this is an interesting thread !!
How many racing Ferrari cars were in NZ?
Six F1-based cars:
1. The Roycroft 375 as above
2. Supersqualo FL9001
3. Supersqualo FL9002 (briefly)
4. Pat Hoare 4-cylinder special
5. Pat Hoare V12-engined Dino 246
6. Graeme Lawrence rear-engined Dino 246

And among sports/racing cars:
1. 750 Monza
2. 250LM (briefly)
and post-period
3. 375MM
4. 500/750/850

jim short
12-30-2011, 09:48 PM
there is the whitehead monza that jenson drove .had plenty of debates over this car ,the car was a 860 with a 3.4 mtr.the same mtr. an gearbox as his and parnells squallos.it sat in newmarket for some time up for sale. but did not sell it had two bulges in the bonet and adiferent grill. sadly moes publication refer to them as 750 monzas!!!!

Steve Holmes
12-31-2011, 01:43 AM
Prove it:)
There's a lot of dispute (outside NZ) about this. There seems no doubt the Roycroft car was 375/2, the same number as the Gonzalez British GP winner. But was the Gonzalez 1951 375/2 the same as the 375/2 supplied to Rosier in 1952 (and hence to Roycroft)?
(I don't know the answer)

Wow! Thanks David.

driftwood
01-01-2012, 02:59 PM
Six F1-based cars:
1. The Roycroft 375 as above
2. Supersqualo FL9001who had this car
3. Supersqualo FL9002 (briefly) when you say briefly educate me- was this owned by the owner of 9001?
4. Pat Hoare 4-cylinder special
5. Pat Hoare V12-engined Dino 246
6. Graeme Lawrence rear-engined Dino 246
how many cars remain in NZ?

driftwood
01-01-2012, 03:03 PM
And among sports/racing cars:
1. 750 Monza
2. 250LM (briefly) was it on loan or sold back to northern hemisphere?
and post-period what do you call post period
3. 375MM
4. 500/750/850
anyone able to post photos?

Grant Ellwood
01-01-2012, 03:16 PM
I managed to get a copy of David's book here via Amazon, really enjoyed the story and of course obviously very well researched.


There's one in David Manton's recently published book Enzo Ferrari's Secret War

David McKinney
01-01-2012, 04:53 PM
To briefly answer driftwood’s questions:

Single-seaters:
2 and 3. After Parnell and Whitehead had campaigned the Supersqualos in the NZ international series they sold them to local drivers Tom Clark (FL9001) and John McMillan (FL9002). After only a handful of NZ events both new owners took them to Australia to race: McMillan sold his car there – hence its “brief” time in NZ ownership

Of the six cars resident in NZ at various times, the total remaining is 0

Sportscars:
2. The ownership of the LM was never entirely clear. It was believed to have been owned in NZ by Andrew Buchanan, but was returned to Scuderia Veloce in Australia, who had campaigned it before, so maybe it was a lease deal. As far as I know it’s never raced in the Northern Hemisphere, unless in historic tacing comparitively recently

3 and 4. I should have had a colon after the ‘post-period’. Both these cars were imported long after they had ceased to be competitive propositions (or indeed compliant with any regulations)

driftwood
01-01-2012, 05:22 PM
When these cars came south to race was it part of the deal that the cars had to be sold to locals as part of the import tax/import bond? or is that an urban myth

David McKinney
01-01-2012, 09:41 PM
Depends if you were lucky enough to find a buyer :)
There was certainly never any compulsion for the cars to be sold

Russ Cunningham
01-01-2012, 11:25 PM
Logan always referred to the car as "Charlotte" but I have no idea about the name's origin. Logan died several years ago and was a most eccentric but engaging person. His Grandfather was a 4 times mayor of Hamilton during the '20's and the Fow's Furniture (or was it Flooring) store in central Hamilton was one of the family businesses.

The photos are actually taken in front of my parent's house in Hamilton where John Anderson and I removed the body after I brokered the sale to Neil Corner. I was back in NZ for the Jan '78 Formula Pacific series but had had a major pre season testing accident at Puke (after a mechanical failure but doesn't everyone say that) and was in plaster waiting to go back into hospital for more bone grafts at the time so had a bit of time on my hands!

I understand the "GTO" bodywork still exists, to me the proportions didn't look right and it really was the most impractical road car imaginable. Although many people, including on this forum, think it was a loss to change the car back but it was the last Ferrari front engined Formula One car and I still think that is the correct historical spec for it. At least that's how I rationalised it at the time!

The bodywork was stored in Te Awamutu in the nineties and is probably still there. Next time I'm in Te Awamutu I'll call on the chap.

Milan Fistonic
01-02-2012, 03:28 AM
When these cars came south to race was it part of the deal that the cars had to be sold to locals as part of the import tax/import bond? or is that an urban myth

I always thought that one of the reasons the local drivers took their newly acquired imported cars across to Australia to race was that they avoided having to pay the import tax/import bond.

David McKinney
01-02-2012, 09:54 AM
Slightly different point to the one raised but, yes, it was an attraction for Australian and New Zealanders to take their car out of the country once a year if they had entered the country under bond. I presume there came a time when the value of the car was sufficiently reduced for the bond to be payable - or did the bond apply only for a limited time?

jim short
01-02-2012, 08:12 PM
i think the 250lm was owned by david mckay when spencer martin raced it later on he {dmc }crased in front of fagio ,i remember him saying he could put out his hand and touched ,,he then rebuilt it and a group of them owned it

David McKinney
01-03-2012, 10:17 AM
Yes, David McKay = Scuderia Veloce

jim short
01-04-2012, 01:23 AM
david the 500 you mention is that the kenny smith mondel he owned with graham lawrence had no body???

jim short
01-04-2012, 03:48 AM
On u tube dial fangio v brabham see 1978 sandown race ,following year {79}was when david mckay smashed the 250LM quite badly an oil line putting oil on tyres was the reason!!

CUSTAXIE50
01-04-2012, 09:38 PM
are you the jim short that they tell me ,who had a bit to do with the first custaxie that was made.

jim short
01-04-2012, 10:59 PM
no sorry just a poor old truck driver who did ent even have a state house to live in went to tokoroa in 1958 never saw the custie run

rogered
01-05-2012, 08:53 AM
5155

rogered
01-05-2012, 08:54 AM
silverstone around 1995.
:)

Oldfart
01-10-2012, 05:58 PM
Just noticed a wee snippet in the article which Wally posted in the McBegg thread that says Don McDonald used this car for a crack at the Speed record but "only" did 152.3mph.

David McKinney
01-11-2012, 10:44 AM
"Only" in that they were chasing a 10-year-old class record which stood at 157.4mph

jim short
01-11-2012, 08:59 PM
David do you know any thing about the ferrari sports kenny had in his storage for several yrs.???

David McKinney
01-11-2012, 10:25 PM
Assuming we're talking about the same one, it had started life as a 2-litre Mondial raced at Macau in the mid '50s, then had the engine replaced by a 3.0, thereby becoming in effect a 750 Monza. When Kenny acquired it in Singapore (initially at least in partnership with Graeme Lawrence) in the 1970s it was with a 3.4-litre engine, ie, an 860 Monza. He couldn't get a body built for it and eventually sold it, still unrestored and bodyless, overseas around 1986. I believe it's now back in 2.0 Mondial spec

jim short
01-11-2012, 10:58 PM
Hi thanks thats the one

Chris Read
03-17-2012, 08:53 PM
The Mondial Jim refers to and Dave gives the history on was a car I saw in Kenny's lockup which had a big dog on a running chain which was best to keep on the right side of. I have a photo some where. Was a very dirty looking thing and I did not know what I was looking at except it had this perky little twin cam (4 cyl ??) motor standing upright in the engine bay. I think it had some body attached.
Beside it was a 500 Cooper look alike that had been used in Hillclimbs by ?? (well known name) who I may remember in due course. It was very dirty and rudimentary with grip tyres and think had a 500 motor.
Later I heard the story about a car having some joint ownership issues which sounds like the Mondial I saw. Hell that must have been over 25 yrs ago!!
If I can sort out how to post photos I will put them on. When I scan them it says they are too big. Any help to this newbie welcome....Chris Read.

Steve Holmes
03-18-2012, 05:18 AM
Chris, re the pics, there is a good site you can use called Tinypic, where you can upload your photo and resize it to what you need, then you just copy and paste the info into the forum here. Really easy to use. Quite a few members on here use it. The tools here on the forum are also easy to use, but you need to have the photos at a small enough size they'll be accepted, which seems to be your stumbling block. Tinypic can be found here: http://tinypic.com/index.php

Just email me if you have any questions, would love to see your photos: enquiries@monsterracewear.co.nz

Chris Read
03-25-2012, 10:09 AM
Can't find the photo of the little Mondial in Kenny's lock up referred to earlier above, but have found one of the Cooper type look a like that was sitting along side the Ferrari. Has Duckams sponsored and a twin. Was used in h6916illclimbs and pretty rough. Any one recognise it? Chris Read, Arrowtown.

David McKinney
03-25-2012, 10:49 AM
It does look very Cooper-like. Could it be the RGR?

Oldfart
03-25-2012, 10:55 AM
Not the RGR, it never had a Vincent

David McKinney
03-25-2012, 11:04 AM
I've just had a quick flick through my photos - reckon it's Steve Boreham's MkX Cooper, which did run a Vincent (as well as just about every other motorcycle engine you can think of) and did go to Ken Smith. Towards the end of its long hillclimbing life the car ran with a horizontal nose stripe as in Chris's photo

jim short
03-25-2012, 11:27 AM
Yes the shed was full of Minor gards and bonets ect stacked to the roof,all ex Dominion Mtrs. I guess

Oldfart
03-25-2012, 06:22 PM
I reckon you are right David, as usual.

Chris Read
03-25-2012, 09:49 PM
You are right...Steve Boreham was the guy I was trying to remember...will leave the car id to you. I reckon I was in Kenny's lockup in the early 80's.
Another mystery solved. Chris Read,Arrowtown.

rogered
05-11-2013, 08:05 AM
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x30tno_rfop037-vintage-racing-nigel-corner_auto#.UY4J45NjXSh
link
The hoare car "bucking" it pilot

Allan
05-13-2013, 07:50 PM
There is a sequel to the story about the Hoare Ferrari 246 and it's reincarnation as a race car.
The late Mr Logan Fow and Briton Neil Corner struck a deal on the sale of the car which was quite simple. Mr Fow would ship the car and all the related parts to the UK and Mr Corner would pay for a brand new Ferrari BB512 which Mr Fow would collect from H.R.Owens in London. This deal was done under the then existing Tourist Delivery scheme and was arranged by the then New Zealand concessionaires for Ferrari the Torino Group of companies. Accordingly Mr Fow made arrangements to uplift the Ferrari and use it in the UK for twelve months, which the scheme required, and then ship it back to New Zealand.
The first problem occurred when the price of the car went up from that originally ageed to but this was apparently solved and the car was delivered to Mr Fow. So Mr Fow took delivery of his beautiful Ferrari in red and black withcream leather upholstery. Mr Fow lived in the UK for the required period working I believe at an exclusive boy's school. He then shipped the car back to New Zealand by sea, flew home and waited for his car to arrive. The car landed on the docks at Auckland and Mr Fow went to Customs in Hamilton with his baggage sufferance documents but for some reason they were unwilling or unable to process the clearance through that office.
This is where my involvement begins. At the time I was the Service Manager for the Torino Group and as such one of my responsibilities was to oversee the clearance of such vehicles from the wharves. Our Torino receptionist announced that I had a visitor and Mr Fow walked into my office. He had ridden from Hamilton to Auckland on a Honda step through and appeared in old yellow water proof gear carrying an open face helmet. He explained his situation and I sought the assistance of our in house customs agent. We then proceeded to go through the normal channels for clearing such a car and then discovered we had a major problem. It appeared from the documents we had that Mr Fow had not owned the Ferrari in the UK for the required twelve months and was in fact two days short and because of this was due to pay horrendous sales tax and duty before he could land his Ferrari. Mr Fow's explanation was that he had collected the car on a Friday and had returned to H.R.Owens the following Monday to complete the paperwork. Despite our best efforts with telexes back and forward to H.R.Owens with Customs keeping an eye on the proceedings that beautiful car sat in an Auckland wharf shed collecting dust and bird droppings. It was still there 18 months later when I left Torinos to start my own business. The car now resides in Dunedin and next time I am down that way will make a point of at least paying it a visit.
Allan

Howard Wood
05-13-2013, 08:28 PM
Allan, the issues Logan had over importing the BB512 were further complicated by the nature of the sale transactions over the 246. In addition, at the time the waiting time for a new BB512 meant that most private buyers were paying a major premium if they wanted one. Neil Corner's connections with Ferrari circumvented that although the BB512 was only part of the whole transaction.

Without going into too much detail, the export of "Antiquities" regulations together with the restrictions on International Currency transactions which prevailed at the time together with the virtual unavailabilty of a new BB512 meant that NZ Customs were already EXTREMELY suspicious of a "school groundsman" (because this is what he did while waiting the 12 months to return with the car), dressed pretty much as you describe, wanting to customs clear a new Ferrari.

Allan
05-13-2013, 09:30 PM
You are indeed correct Howard. My involvement as I said, was at the end of the story and while I had heard of some of the other issues at the time of the sale I was not directly involved. As far as I know, sadly, Mr Fow did not get to drive his BB512 in NZ.

Howard Wood
05-13-2013, 10:31 PM
I am quite sure Logan never got to drive the car in NZ which is of course the sad part of the whole story. The bright side is that the Hoare 246 was preserved and returned to its original state(s).

The other sad part is that Logan who saw "Charlotte" as almost the ultimate road car was motivated to sell it to Neil Corner only because he saw the BB512 as an even better road car. Despite what Ferrari fanatics will tell you, the BB512 was really a dreadful piece, wouldn't keep cool or run properly in traffic, had Mack truck clutch pedal pressures and all in all would not have been much better than the Dino to commute in although at least it had a reverse!. I know Logan had to replace the clutch during the year he owned it in London.

rogered
05-13-2013, 10:35 PM
I had a feeling that it eventually ended up with a machinary dealer in auckland. but as a kid i recall the rumour of a new ferrari "abandoned" on the wharf
Logan fow used to show us school kids how to make and fly kites.

Oldfart
05-13-2013, 11:16 PM
I had a feeling that it eventually ended up with a machinary dealer in auckland. but as a kid i recall the rumour of a new ferrari "abandoned" on the wharf
Logan fow used to show us school kids how to make and fly kites.

Logan stood for a council position at Hamilton City Council, it may even have been mayor. He had a very large kite with signwriting something like "Fly your kite with Logan for Mayor" at Innes Common very frequently.
He was a man with a number of passions, caving, kite flying, collecting Mistral sports cars and of course the Ferrari. Far from being a "school groundsman" he was very wealthy, but it never showed. He was a great man to have known.

Steve Holmes
05-14-2013, 12:34 AM
Thats an amazing story, re Logan. But quite sad. Why did he never drive the Ferrari in NZ? Did he just get tired of the whole battle and sell it, or did something else happen?

Allan
05-14-2013, 03:01 AM
He claimed that he had owned the car for the necessary 12 month period and therefore should not have to pay the sales tax and duty that customs required. But as the car sat on the wharf it incurred demurrage (storage fees) and the price to clear the car was increasing all the time. I tried very hard to prove the 12 month period but to no avail. The car would then have been sold at auction to recover it's costs. I do not know who bought it or what kind of money it went for but the late Mike Booth who owned Continental Cars in Wellington at the time looked at it with me and estimated it would cost about $20,000 (1982 dollars) to bring it back to some reasonable condition. I do believe there were other issues involved in Mr Fow's decision not to pursue the situation but as these were only hearsay I won't go into them here.

rogered
05-14-2013, 03:50 AM
so how long was it sitting on the wharf for Allan?

Allan
05-14-2013, 04:07 AM
That I knew of at least 18 months.

David McKinney
05-14-2013, 10:44 AM
Far from being a "school groundsman" he was very wealthy, but it never showed. He was a great man to have known.
Didn't he come into his wealth just before he bought the 246? Family inheritance, Golden Kiwi (or Art Union) or something?

Oldfart
05-14-2013, 06:55 PM
Didn't he come into his wealth just before he bought the 246? Family inheritance, Golden Kiwi (or Art Union) or something?

His family was Turners and Fow a bit like the Waikato version of Turners and Growers, also Fows flooring. I think there was "old money". He had a very large house looking down over the Waikato river adjacent to the bridge which is in the middle of Hamilton (Claudelands Bridge, and a vague memory is that some of the land was sold for the bridge to be built, but that is a very vague one. In 1966 or 67 he was offered 5000 sterling + a brand new DB5 (?) might have been a DBS in exchange for the Ferrari and turned it down.
He was a highly intelligent man, bordering on ? but did some very irrational things at times.

Allan
05-14-2013, 08:00 PM
I have seen his name on something that he has paid for or gifted to the Hamilton Zoo.
I believe he took the job as a school groundsman in the UK to keep out of the road of buses. He always reminded me of David Bellamy or vice versa.
While he was in my office the first time my boss walked past the open door and a minute later my phone rang. I was summonsed to his office to be asked the question "who the hell is that?" As has been said the most unlikely looking Ferrari owner one could meet.

alanstanton
03-11-2014, 04:41 AM
It was an incredible experience to see this car converted. I think I learned more watching and helping Jum Hodder than the rest of my apprenticeship.One of the drawbacks to Pat Hoares decision to not modify the chassis was that the fuel tank was still in the center of the car and had to be filled from within the cockpit. It also did not have a reverse gear although later I believe somebody fitted a starter motor to use for going in reverse. When the car was finished Pat took the staff of Whinnies for a trip around the block I remember he went from Riccarton Rd to Blenheim Rd and was only in 2nd gear. The car was displayed at a car show at Canterbury Court when finished and it was George Lee's and my job to go around every morning to polish it.

Steve Holmes
03-13-2014, 02:35 AM
Wow, that is a great story Alan! Thanks so much for contributing.

alanstanton
07-15-2014, 05:21 AM
A couple of years ago I spoke to a chap [cant remember his name] who now has the original body. The story he told me was the lawyer who acted for Logan Fow took it as payment for the work he did trying to get it through customs. The lawyer then had problems with another client a builder who then took the body as settlement. I just cant remember where it is but it is in the north island somewhere. I think at some time it will resurface as he was thinking of what he could mount under it. One thing that did not go to Corner was the original mirrors off the single seater they were left at the trimmers George Lees workshop and many years later were mounted on the 375plus of Kerry Manalos while being restored at Auto Restorations.

bt34
12-28-2014, 09:13 AM
A couple of pics I took many years ago..

Spinaway
06-23-2017, 05:57 AM
Have just read thru all this thread and enjoyed it.
Sorry to revive this Pat Hoare thread but just a wee anecdote to add.
Back in the mid 60s in Temuka as a high school boy my mate and I were dead keen on building slot car tracks and slot cars etc. So we knew what Ferraris were, and they were pretty cool. But we had never seen one.
An advertisement appeared in a local magazine or newspaper advertising that there was a Ferrari agency opened in Christchurch and they were eager for business. This is about 1966 I am guessing. We thought wow! how come there are Ferraris being sold in Chch, just up the road, in little old NZ ... can’t be true. So I thought I would write to this company. I sent off a general enquiry letter just seeking a bit of Ferrari info, in a naÔve manner I guess. Waited a few weeks, and expecting no reply, then this big envelope arrived at our house addressed to me. It looked very fancy and official.
Opened it up and it was from this Chch Ferrari importer company. Must have been Pat Hoare's company I guess.
There was a beautifully typed long letter outlining all the different model Ferraris that I could buy, delivery times, and prices etc. Included were 5 or 6 multi-page A4 colour brochures of the Ferrari models mentioned. I had all the information I needed to buy a Ferrari haha. My father gave me a flea in my ear for writing away wanting to buy a new car.
But included under all this new Ferrari stuff there were two colour pictures taken of a used red Ferrari parked in Pat Hoare's garden. And with the pics was a hand written note from Pat Hoare saying that he also had available this used Ferrari right now, and a few details on it, plus price etc. It looked magnificent to me, and it was the rebodied 246/256 of course. It was all dreamland stuff of course, but I could score a few points with my slotcar mate.
My teacher at school used to say that my writing was terrible but it must have been good enough to convince Pat Hoare !

Anyhow that died down, and maybe 6 months later a car show was advertised as being held in Timaru soon. And the star attraction was going to be a red Ferrari sports car from a Mr Pat Hoare of Chch. Of course this was the rebodied single-seater and the Timaru Herald had an article that gave a bit of background on its history. The car show arrived, and amazingly my Father wanted to go in to it to check out a new car (not a Ferrari). So I did get to go and have a look at my first Ferrari and spent all my time there checking it out while my father was doing exciting stuff like trying my buy a Morris 1800 without overseas funds.
However I did get to have some cool Ferrari pics to stick inside the lid of my slotcar box.
Des Spillane

Steve Holmes
06-26-2017, 06:42 AM
Have just read thru all this thread and enjoyed it.
Sorry to revive this Pat Hoare thread but just a wee anecdote to add.
Back in the mid 60s in Temuka as a high school boy my mate and I were dead keen on building slot car tracks and slot cars etc. So we knew what Ferraris were, and they were pretty cool. But we had never seen one.
An advertisement appeared in a local magazine or newspaper advertising that there was a Ferrari agency opened in Christchurch and they were eager for business. This is about 1966 I am guessing. We thought wow! how come there are Ferraris being sold in Chch, just up the road, in little old NZ ... can’t be true. So I thought I would write to this company. I sent off a general enquiry letter just seeking a bit of Ferrari info, in a naÔve manner I guess. Waited a few weeks, and expecting no reply, then this big envelope arrived at our house addressed to me. It looked very fancy and official.
Opened it up and it was from this Chch Ferrari importer company. Must have been Pat Hoare's company I guess.
There was a beautifully typed long letter outlining all the different model Ferraris that I could buy, delivery times, and prices etc. Included were 5 or 6 multi-page A4 colour brochures of the Ferrari models mentioned. I had all the information I needed to buy a Ferrari haha. My father gave me a flea in my ear for writing away wanting to buy a new car.
But included under all this new Ferrari stuff there were two colour pictures taken of a used red Ferrari parked in Pat Hoare's garden. And with the pics was a hand written note from Pat Hoare saying that he also had available this used Ferrari right now, and a few details on it, plus price etc. It looked magnificent to me, and it was the rebodied 246/256 of course. It was all dreamland stuff of course, but I could score a few points with my slotcar mate.
My teacher at school used to say that my writing was terrible but it must have been good enough to convince Pat Hoare !

Anyhow that died down, and maybe 6 months later a car show was advertised as being held in Timaru soon. And the star attraction was going to be a red Ferrari sports car from a Mr Pat Hoare of Chch. Of course this was the rebodied single-seater and the Timaru Herald had an article that gave a bit of background on its history. The car show arrived, and amazingly my Father wanted to go in to it to check out a new car (not a Ferrari). So I did get to go and have a look at my first Ferrari and spent all my time there checking it out while my father was doing exciting stuff like trying my buy a Morris 1800 without overseas funds.
However I did get to have some cool Ferrari pics to stick inside the lid of my slotcar box.
Des Spillane

Boy, thats a hell of a neat first post!

Steve Holmes
07-01-2017, 05:52 AM
A couple of pics I took many years ago..

Your photos are amazing! Thanks for posting.

Here are a couple of beauties posted to our facebook page by Jim Short.

44193

44194

Swannie
07-05-2017, 06:05 AM
I found these photos in a collection of my late fathers slides. I've only just had them converted to a digital format. First time they have seen the light of day since the late 1960's
442774427844279

Steve Holmes
07-05-2017, 06:57 AM
Wow, these are incredible Swannie! The clarity is amazing. Thank you so much for posting. I hope you have more?

Oldfart
07-05-2017, 12:46 PM
Thanks Swannie, the last clearly shows the internal filler cap to which I referred, which another member had some doubt. Thanks!

Roger486
03-01-2021, 06:33 AM
I found these photos in a collection of my late fathers slides. I've only just had them converted to a digital format. First time they have seen the light of day since the late 1960's
442774427844279


Wow, these are incredible Swannie! The clarity is amazing. Thank you so much for posting. I hope you have more?

Wow, thank you for posting this... I see itís 2011. However it brings back memories as Logan Fow took me for a drive in this when I was by a child (10yo??). First time I ever went 100mph++ ima 30mph speed zone.

Thank you.

Roger486
03-01-2021, 06:42 AM
Wow! Memories. As a 10yo or there about Logan took me for a ride in the car... my first 100mph++ ride on Hukanui Road, Hamilton- a 30mph limit area.