New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars Under HRC [Archive]

Kiwiboss

05-21-2011, 07:27 AM

Hi HMC Guys

Just brief mailout, still plenty happening behind the scene's, will keep you posted as these come to lite!! though the Steve Holmes article in NZV8 last month i've had considerable interest NZ wide, infact several from the South Island rang about HMC down that way!! early days yet.

As with any rules and reg's, determining what they mean can be frustrating so he's a couple of items i've had to touch on!!

1 - Can i use a 67/9 Camaro Cowl bonnet on my 70/73 Camaro? Answer: No you can't, under Important Note(1) A vehicle may be modified to utilize the period variations within the manufacturer’s model body shell!! so that been the case a 70 to 73 Camaro never came from the Factory NEW as a Standard Series Production Vehicle with a Cowl Bonnet, this is a different "Model Body Shell" from a 67/9.

2 - Can i use 60 Profile Tyres on my Mustang? Answer: Sure can, the Minium tyre Profile is 50 Series, if you want to go larger this is no problem but you cannot use a Tyre any lower than 50 Profile(EG, 45, 40, 35 Profile)..

3 - A Factory Capri Perana V8 only came with 13" wheels, does that mean my Capri Perana replica can only use 14 wheels? Answer: No, any over 3L Historic Muscle Car that came factory with 12, 13 and 14" Wheels can upsize straight to 15" but you still must use a 50 Profile tyre and you cannot chop the guards to fit, only the arch/wing pressing folded into the wheel arch may be deformed, but not removed, to give clearance to the tyres.

4 - Can i race my AC Cobra Replica with you guys? Answer: No, and for several reasons, a Cobra Replica is not a "Standard Series Production Vehicle" its a kit car!!! and also the real ones where made from aluminium not fibreglass(mostly) and if fitted any engine other than a SB or BB Ford this also would not be correct.

5 - Can i race my Triumph Stag V8 with HMC?, Answer: Yes you can, Vehicles other than American or Australian are welcome, all safety requirements must meet MSNZ and also must comply to HMC rules

6 - Can i race my 911 Porsche 3.4L with HMC?, Answer: No as no rear engine vehicles are allowed, but if your Porsche is one of the Front engine V8 rear wheel drive vehicles then this is OK

Please feel free to E-Mail or PH myself or Tony Roberts if you have a question or don't understand a ruling, where here to help!!

Had this You Tube Video sent to me by Craig Stacey, this is what HMC is all about, have a good look, if you think the bump at Hampton is bad, you won't too race here!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XkBPOUWM5k&feature=player_embedded#at=46

Also, see attachment for this Article written in May's Hemmings Classic Car by its American writer that was Hampton Downs for the Amon Event, very good exposure for Hampton Downs US wide and as you will read, it was the 60's Saloon's that impressed.

Once again though Steve Holmes we will have some up and coming features on HMC cars, and their owners in various magazines over the winter period, all with a push aimed towards next Januarys BMW Festival. If you want to feature yourself and Vehicle for HMC please contact Steve enquiries@monsterracewear.co.nz he will also be setting up a HMC Website in the coming months so info for this will be required.

Steve currently has new online forum up and running http://www.theroaringseason.com/ click on, have a look and put up some postings, lots of great info.

And one final item, to race with HMC you will be require joining Historic Racing Club(HRC) for a small fee of $50, click on here http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse and then too "Membership application form press here" a small price to pay to join a great club.

Keep Warm

Cheers
Dale Mathers
Tauranga, NZ

nigel watts

06-17-2011, 11:14 AM

Jac Mac

06-17-2011, 09:06 PM

Hmm, I wonder if a 69TVR Tuscan would be eligible for this class?

Steve Holmes

07-04-2011, 12:37 AM

Here is a good HMC candidate: http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?177-Corvette-1973

Kiwiboss

07-04-2011, 09:42 AM

Great news Dale. Can't wait to see these cars in action & hopefully some new competitors will come out to play if they know that there wont be any biffo involved. I enjoy watching the Central Muscle Cars but they suffer some major damage from time to time.

Nigel, Central is great class for the spectators to watch and enjoy!! they certainly have some wild machinery in that group!! lots of sideways action etc, but it has really turned in a semi professional race class along the lines of the Australian Bianti/Auto Barn Cars!! where as myself and others at HMC are more about Old Cars and Historic Racing where winning aint so important!!

Dale Mathers

Kiwiboss

07-04-2011, 09:52 AM

Hmm, I wonder if a 69TVR Tuscan would be eligible for this class?

Jac Mac, Not sure about a 69 TVR Tuscan but by all means have a look though the rules on the Historic Racing Club website http://www.grandprix.org.nz/nz-muscle-cars.wse to determine eligibility!! is that the model Jack Onrack races here in NZ? unfortunatly his one is quite "Hot Rodded" i doupt it would be HMC legal, also been a Sports Car makes it a HMC group 1 vehicle!! he's certainly very fast thats for sure!!

Dale Mathers

Murray Maunder

07-05-2011, 05:02 AM

Nigel, Central is great class for the spectators to watch and enjoy!! they certainly have some wild machinery in that group!! lots of sideways action etc, but it has really turned in a semi professional race class along the lines of the Australian Bianti/Auto Barn Cars!! where as myself and others at HMC are more about Old Cars and Historic Racing where winning aint so important!!

Dale Mathers

Dale, you are always very diplomatic in your references to the present day Central Musclecar which is at it should be. Clearly the class has grown and in some respects grown a little too "libre" for many, including myself. I liken it a bit to the South Island's OSCA formula (I exaggerate a little!) while up North we were all being treated to beautiful American cars like Fahey's Mustang and Coppins Camaro etc.

I like your class's new slogan "the cars are the stars". You have shown in the past with your beautiful orange Boss that it's possible to have a period correct (well close to) car that looks great and is driven quick and clean. The CMC in some ways looks today like a bunch of guys who have moved up from Holden HQ or speedway superstocks. Car presentation is often rude and driving standards to match. Maybe we can see some great action in the next few years with the new class if some US and Australian drivers come over.

Steve Holmes

07-05-2011, 07:30 AM

I think it'd be great for all the cars in HMC to be on 15" wheels with Goodyear Bluestreak cross-ply tyres. It'd be period correct, and the cars would look great, and slip and slide as they should do. This is what the Historic Trans-Am cars run on, and those cars look fantastic. Check them out here: http://www.historictransam.com/

The biggest issue with the Bluestreaks is the cost. That being said, by comparison to what people spend on other areas of a race car, they're a fairly minor outlay. But from speaking to people who race regularly on them, they are a lot of fun, and you should be able to get 3-4 events from a set. They tend to run out of grip before they run out of rubber, so you could say they become more enjoyable the older they get!

Kiwiboss

07-05-2011, 07:57 AM

Im currently have a set of 15" Daisy Arrow Wheels been built so i'll be on Goodyear Bluestreaks at the BMW Festival next year!!! If it slows me by a second or two, that aint so bad!! I always prefer to win the race in pits!! i found out years ago that the "nicest" car in the pits is long "remembered" after the last race is won!!

Politically CMC has had its issues, but that can't be help when you have a growing class and a "Bullseye" for everyone to aim for!! the class as i've said, is a great spectacle!! and although the viewing public may enjoy the damage it certainly isn't fun for the car owner/driver!! but as long as there are racers willing to bucket the $$$ in, the class will survive!! Funnily enough, in Australia they're having the same issues with the Biante/Auto barn series, as it has turned into a full blown "Racers" class in old cars where win at all cost counts, and only professional well funded teams can win!!! "it sure is great to watch though!!!"

Dale Mathers

nigel watts

07-05-2011, 09:02 AM

Kiwiboss

07-26-2011, 08:00 AM

Hopefully HMC & CMC will both enjoy healthy grids. I'll probably see the HMC cars racing more than CMC because I prefer the HRC meetings. Anyway, really looking forward to hearing what cars will be racing. Watching this space!!!

The plan Nigel is to only race at HRC events(at this stage) as they already have a format in place!! Just a matter of getting competitors to the grid with cars that fit the rules!! and also, they're having a sort out in the Under 3L small saloons(mini's, escorts, cortinas, etc) as well, we will all be racing together!! Just like the old days!!!

Dale Mathers

Steve Holmes

08-03-2011, 12:42 AM

Historic Muscle Cars website is up and running now, for those that are interested: www.historicmusclecars.co.nz

Kiwiboss

08-03-2011, 09:28 AM

This is Kevin Gimbletts 67 Camaro in "Dale Earnhardt Goodwench" colours, Kevin has removed has Alloy heads and replaced them with Cast Iron RHS heads correct for HMC, now he's good to go for this season and will be racing at the Hampton Festival next January. Kevins a hard charger with 35 plus years Speedway experience, he always makes that Camaro wide when im behind him, LOL

Dale Mathers

Kiwiboss

08-03-2011, 10:09 AM

Here's Kevin again at Speed, Scope 08, Ruapuna, even for a Ford guy thats one cool Car!!

Dale Mathers

Steve Holmes

08-03-2011, 08:54 PM

Thats a good looking car Dale. I've never noticed the rear exit exhaust before.

Steve Holmes

08-03-2011, 09:44 PM

I love this car.

2782

Kiwiboss

08-04-2011, 04:33 AM

Mike Rorisons 67 Mustang Coupe, all cast Iron 331 SB Ford, 450HP on Pump Gas.

nigel watts

08-04-2011, 06:24 AM

this is going to be a great class - I can't wait

Steve Holmes

08-05-2011, 10:52 PM

The rebuild of Murray Browns '70 Camaro to HMC regulations can be found here: http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?250-1970-Camaro-Build-Thread-%96-From-GT-Racer-To-Historic-Racer

Kiwiboss

08-10-2011, 09:26 AM

This is my August E-mailout for Historic Muscle Cars, just sent today. If anyone wish's to be added to my E-mailouts please shoot me an E-mail, dmathers@xtra.co.nz Dale

First up, we must thank the HRC Committee Jim Barclay, Chris Watson, Tony Roberts and Steve Holmes for there undying support for HMC and what we are trying to achieve. These 4 guys want to see a "True" Historic Muscle Car class for O3L Saloons in New Zealand, and with events like the Festival of Speed at Hampton Downs having International exposure and attracting overseas drivers, its fast becoming the premier Historic meeting on the New Zealand racing calendar, all great stuff so lets get in behind these guys and give them our support.

We're just under 6 months out from the January Festival of Speed, http://www.nzfmr.co.nz/ and as this is the kick off for HMC several have asked about further race meetings, this is still been sorted, but it is plan'd to have at least 2 other events thoughout the summer using the Historic Racing Club format such as there Legends/Tasman meetings, we don't want to over do it in the first year as many have other commitments and we still want to nurture owners, and make sure there cars fit HMC rules, i'll keep you posted on this and will have those dates set in concrete before the years out.

We're pretty much past the dead of winter, and plenty has been happening amongst interested HMC racers. Five Vehicle owners have or currently are, converting their engines back to Cast Iron Cylinder Heads as per the MSNZ T&C rules, let alone HMC rules, this is good news!! But by far the greatest interest has been those interested in racing on the correct Goodyear Blue Streak 15" race tyres, we have 6 Vehicles making the change, remember, these are the actual tyres that they raced on in the day, very "period" and "correct" for what we are doing. Though a contact with the American Historic Trans Am group, i have got intouch with their Goodyear Blue Streak Tyre supplier and will be importing several sets in the next few months, if anyone is interested please let me know. And although more expensive than your regular DOT Road tyre, the better US exchange rate has helped close that gap.

I've had lots of positive feedback with what we are acheving, numbers are looking good for BMW, with a couple of purchase's happening and others reconfiguring there current vehicle. Its looking like a pretty even spread of Monaro's, Torana's, Camaro's, Falcons and Mustangs with the Javelin and possibly a Capri V8 or two, etc. And to all those making the extra effort, you need to know that you will not be racing against any NON conforming vehicles, the rules are the rules, NO Grandfathering, NO Mates deals, NO Sponsor's deals, NO Organiser's or Committe privilege's, NO let me race and i'll fix it next time deals, etc, when you're lined up on the dummy grid, and you look across that the guy next to you, you need to know he's "paid" the same price you have to be there. Im less concerned about numbers, we want QUALITY for HMC, if we only get 5 cars and they all 100% legal, thats a great grid to me, but i know we'll easliy better that!!

I spent Saturday afternoon and Sunday at the Auckland Speedshow recently, helping Chris, Tony, Clare, Melissa out at the HRC Stand, a fantastic show with good crowd numbers due too poor mid winter weather. I handed out fliers and spoke with many about HMC, lots more positive news and interest, and offcourse, many questions particulaly regarding rule deffinations. It was great to talk straight and answer these questions directly, and as i've mentioned in pervious mailouts, don't just presume, contact myself or Tony Roberts Tony@hamptondowns.com for a final answer.

Steve Holmes has a great article in the next issue of Classic Car Magazine and another preview in NZV8, he has finally got the HMC website up and running, all voluntary work on Steve's behalf, so check out www.historicmusclecars.co.nz this website is based around our own significant and uniquely rich NZ Saloon Racing History, HMC is about reliving this era.

There are few of you that haven't raced for sometime and are dragging out your race cars!! Check that your MSNZ Race Licence is up to date, if its lapsed you will need to resit it again!! hate for you to turn up at BMW with no licence and can't race!! an item thats easily over looked.

So thats about it for me this month, keep warm and keep working towards that end goal, and remember our HMC moto "The Cars are the Stars" otherwise you're racing with the wrong group, and make sure you join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their membership deal at $50 is a bargain.

Kiwiboss

09-15-2011, 10:43 PM

Haven't had much time of late, but have my steel Bonnet semi fitted to the Boss to meet the HMC rules of all original panel work and Spoilers.

Dale Mathers

Rod Grimwood

09-15-2011, 11:26 PM

Kiwiboss

09-16-2011, 12:39 AM

Now to colour match Dale, I think thats why we all ran mat black bonnets in old days, a bit easier. But with your talent and friends it won't be a problem. Do you have to do much to bring car up to regs.

Not much Rod, because i originaly built the car to MSNZ T&C rules to begin with it fits HMC rules, only the Bonnet/Bootlid(i had fibreglass) and i've had to remove the upper and lower tube suspension control arms and go back to original!! and im good to go.

Dale Mathers

Steve Holmes

09-19-2011, 03:55 AM

Dales September HMC Newsletter:

Greetings HMC Followers

Another month whistles by and plenty has been happening!!! Steve Holmes ran
several more articles in NZV8 and Classic Car so this once again created
more interest in HMC

Its great to see those interested phoning or e-mailing about rule
definitions and interpretations, great stuff guys keep it up.

Probably the one definition that needs most clarification is the wording
"Standard Series Production Car" when it comes to "Body Work" and
"Spoilers". What this means is that all body work including Spoilers,
Bumpers, Grills, Headlights, Taillights, etc and flared guards as on A9X
Torana's, must be as "exactly" in dimension and material as what came down
the assembly line as made by the manufacturer. Now the word "Material" is
quite an important description as it means (for instance in my case), my
factory fitted plastic 69 Mustang front spoiler is easy and cheap to
purchase and legal. What i can't do is make one out of aluminium, steel,
fibreglass or Carbon Fibre. I wouldn't want to anyway.

The object of this is to keep the HMC fleet looking exactly as the
manufacture intended using the manufacturers type of materials. This allows
the viewing public to better identify the vehicle and stops material
upgrades like carbon fibre.

This includes all Homologated specials where 100 or more vehicles where
made. Any production run less than 100, like a 69 ZL1 Camaro (they made
70), a Dekon Monza, a Greenwood Corvette, and most any Bathurst special
"Race Part" is not allowed.

Any odd ball race part you may have seen in some magazine from back in the
day on a car similar to yours, does not qualify it has to be as provided by
the Factory, EG: 100 or more on a STANDARD SERIES PRODUCTION CAR as came
down the assembly line. It is easy to check, just Google it.

Let's look at the Homologated Special A9X Torana, they made exactly a 100 so
that means you can build any Torana Hatch and fit all A9X body parts. Now
some aftermarket parts suppliers for these Toranas (and others as well) are
remanufacturing the fender flares, spoilers, scoops, a little wider, higher
and longer. This is "not acceptable" as all components must be the
dimensions of the original make and model, there are manufactures making the
correct parts, so please make you use them.

Also another question in respect of 67/8 Camaros, they didn't come from the
Factory with a cowl bonnet but the 69 model did. Because of this you can
use a Cowl Bonnet on your 67/8 because those "3 year" Camaro's are
considered the same make and model (Generation 1 to you Camaro guys). But
you can't fit a cowl bonnet on a 70/3 Camaro (Generation 2) because this is
a different model which never had a Cowl bonnet from the Factory.

Hope this helps clear this up. Any questions with regards to above please
contact myself dmathers@xtra.co.nz or Tony Roberts tony@hamptondowns.com

What we are trying to achieving here is for the betterment of Classic Racing
in NZ. It puts almost every pre Dec 77 over 3 Litre Saloon and Sports cars
on a equal footing, while racing each other for FUN. It just can't get any
better than that.

I know some of you may be considering whether to make the changes required
but remember, "Less is More". So fit those correct wheels, that factory
spoiler, the right cylinder heads and come out for some FUN racing. It'll
be worth it, most of us are too old to get that phone call from Bernie
(Ecclestone) and our cars have made all the history they're ever going to
make!!

We just want all vehicles with HMC to be visually period correct, and of a
standard acceptable to a true Historic Race Class at events like the up and
coming Festival of Speed at Hampton Downs and other Historic events.

I have quite a few of you changing or upgrading wheels, this is been mostly
done to allow the correct 50 profile tyre and while a 1" upsize is allowable
you should consider keeping to the correct size if possible, this been 15"
for pretty much all vehicles. Although we can upsize to 16", quite a few of
us are opting to keep at the 15" size and this is a good idea as in the
future, the 15" Wheel will be the only allowable size. If you are having
rims made or planning to purchase a set it is probably best to buy 15"
wheels now as this will be the standard down the road.

I was at Eastern Creek several weeks ago for this year's Muscle Car Masters,
event number 5 for the organisers and the biggest event yet with great
weather and plenty of action!! Now if you think we here at HMC are tough
with the rules, you should try racing with their CAMS Group NC Historic
class. They must use the same size wheel rim that the particular vehicle
came with and a minimum 60 profile tyre! It's the same deal with their body
work, no odd ball spoilers, etc. The engines must be exactly the correct
size with no aftermarket heads and blocks! Yet they had 85 entries split up
into 3 groups!! Those Aussie are onto it I must say!! All-round it was a
great event with the high $$$ TCM group setting some amazing lap times with
close racing and it was great to talk with Jim Richards and other Ex pat
kiwi's.

I will be at the HRC Ice Breaker at Hampton Downs, 24/5th September on the
Saturday if anyone wants a chat. And don't forget the Annual MG Classic run
by the Wellington MG car Club at Manfield is coming up on November 12/13th.
I will be racing my orange Mustang at this event so for anyone down that
part of the country do come up and make yourself known, happy to talk about
any HMC issues, along with a good car chat as well.

There are few of you that haven't raced for a while and are dusting off your
race cars!! Check that your MSNZ Race Licence is up to date, if its lapsed
you will need to resit it again!! hate for you to turn up at a HMC event
with no licence and can't race, its an item that is easily over looked.

It's early days yet but check out the newly up and running HMC Website,
www.historicmusclecars.co.nz and also go to www.theroaringseason.com for
great Historic motorsport stuff and online forum.

Attached is a great YouTube video of what Historic Racing is all about, just
image this been HMC!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjs9K59gdHs and did you notice visually how correct these cars are!!

So thats about it for me again this month, the days are stretching out so
keep it up and keep working towards that end goal, and remember our HMC moto
"The Cars are the Stars" otherwise you're racing with the wrong class, and
make sure you join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their
$50 membership deal is a bargain.

3722

3723

Steve Holmes

10-13-2011, 05:15 AM

The first HMC car to get its new 15" Goodyear Bluestreak cross-ply tyres and 15" wheels fitted. Looks fantastic Dale!

4049

4048

4050

Steve Holmes

10-13-2011, 05:16 AM

4051

4052

4053

Rod Grimwood

10-13-2011, 05:50 AM

Very nice Dale, very nice

Kiwiboss

10-14-2011, 10:16 PM

He's one sitting in my shop!!! I have the front hubs of to down size the front rotors, i did have clearance with the 15" rims but is was too close.

Dale

Steve Holmes

10-15-2011, 11:07 PM

Its interesting Dale, you told me you were fitting softer front springs to run these tyres. How is it with a smaller diameter wheel and a tyre with a taller side wall than the 16" you previously had, you have to also fit softer springs? My understanding was the tyre itself plays a small role as a suspension item, so you'd think having the taller side wall would mean the 15" wheels would automatically provide more of a cushion.

Its interesting, reading Mark Donohues book "The Unfair Advantage", when they built their first Penske Camaro in 1967 for the Trans-Am, Donohue wasn't sure what spring rates to fit the the car, so took a punt, and fit 1200 pounds on the front, and 400 pounds on the rear. And he said the car was virtually un-drivable. He became completely disenchanted about it after a few races, and knew softer springs would help the situation, but didn't know what rates to go with.

In the end, after struggling through a few races, he had a few different sets made up. He tried 750 front, and 350 rear, which made an immediate improvement, and in the end settled on 550 front and 180 in the rear, which was a huge difference to those originally fitted.

Kiwiboss

10-15-2011, 11:55 PM

Steve, as a rule of thum the springs should just barely hold the car of the ground and the shocks do the rest!!! but having enough knowledge on shock adjustment choice is the problem when your only a weekend warrior, so for most(including myself) its easier to uprate the springs for a instance performance gain rite out of the box!!and mostly it has been the Puke front straight bumps that have made most uprate the front springs. I always knew my front springs where too heavy as i have slight under steer(which i like) and lowering the front spring rate will change this and help turn in, also the many cornering pictures from Stew Wood have help me to see what my car is doing!! The quite large and soft side wall on the Blue Streak obsorbe's alot of energy so to take advantage of this i need the car to lean more on the corners, this is why i have always used a 50 profile tyre and have beenable to out handle others with a big 315/35X17, they have less side wall and so hence less rubber contact on the track under extreme corning(this applies to most vehicles with a roll centre above the wheel centre line, EG most Saloons) funnily enough i had worked out i need about 900LB down from 1200 and when i was at EC last month and got a closer look at Bowe's mustang with its wheels off, his front springs had 900 stamped on them!!

Also, with the infomation above there are just so many more variables that its too much to get into here!!

Dale Mathers

Steve Holmes

10-16-2011, 12:14 AM

Thanks Dale, it'd be interesting to know if JB really does run 900lbs front springs, or if he just had 900 stamped on them for the benefit of his rivals when they take a nosey under his car to see why its performing so well! I was quite shocked the first time I saw the TCM cars race, and how softly they rode, and the bounce they had under brakes, after becoming accustomed to the CMC cars and their large diameter wheels and rock hard suspension. I wonder what the Historic Trans-Am guys run, and how near they are to what Donohue first used on his Penske Camaro.

Have you done anything with the rear springs Dale?

OCTARD-USA

10-17-2011, 03:08 AM

I wonder what the Historic Trans-Am guys run, and how near they are to what Donohue first used on his Penske Camaro.

Hello Steve,

Here's something I've mentioned to Dale before, but since you asked about someone running these tyres in Historic Trans-Am (in the US), here it is again...

My front springs are Guldstrand (though they may be a re-packaged MOOG part). Guldstrand's part number was G11-001, and they were rated at 600lb spring (as delivered). From memory, I had to cut about 1.5" out of them for ride height, so it's probably a bit stiffer front spring now. I didn't verify the spring rate before or after cutting.

Here's a quote from a friend who bought a similar pair of front springs from Guldstrand in the 1970s:

"I think 650 to 700 is probably a good rate for the front. If you get a Moog #6041 is what Guldstrand sent me in the early 70's they were in the Moog box. I think I cut them to 13.5" free length, but my car was probably lower than you might want to run a road race Camaro."

In the rear I run a set of 200lb stock style multi-leaf springs with 1.5" lowering blocks.

For shocks, I run period Koni double adjustables, front and rear.

The above items are on a 1969 Camaro Z/28 Historic Trans-Am race car.

-Chad

Steve Holmes

10-17-2011, 05:10 AM

Thanks for that info Chad. Very interesting. You don't post here often, but when you do its always worthwhile. I know you're not driving at 101% as Donohue would have been with the rates I listed above, but have you ever tried different spring rates on your Camaro?

OCTARD-USA

10-17-2011, 06:04 AM

Kiwiboss

10-17-2011, 10:13 AM

Hey, Hey Chad 99%, from what i've seen thats a very QUICK 99%, LOL. I believe youre rite on the money!! because of the different suspension control arm pivot ratio's the 900LB springs in my mustang(2:1) work out at about 700LB in most GM(1:75) products like Camaro's, the understeer and turn in you you felt with 900LB's is exactly what my Mustang feels like with 1200LB springs hence im keen to try it out with changed springs and Goodyear tyres, i will report back in 3 weeks!!!

One of the best books around and its an old one called "The Trans Am and Corvette Chassis" Design/Theory/Construction, had this one for years and it still aplies today!!!

Glad to see you posting on this board here Chad, you're a very informative person.

Dale Mathers

Steve Holmes

10-18-2011, 12:49 AM

Hello Steve,

Indeed, I try to drive at no more than 99% of my capabilities. I have used a stiffer (900lb) front spring, as that's what was in it when I bought it. I felt the 900lb front springs provided more understeer by mid-corner, though initial turn-in was good. The front also wanted to break loose in corners with bumps or undulations.

I guess the harder springs would provide less grip in the front Chad, hense the understeer? Have you since changed your rear springs also? Or do you like the balance of the car the way it is?

And yes, 99% of your capabilities is good! 99.2% might be a little risky though.

OCTARD-USA

10-18-2011, 02:24 AM

Have you since changed your rear springs also?

The car came with 225lb rear springs and 900lb fronts. I changed to 175lb rear springs, because I felt the throttle induced oversteer came on a bit too early with the heavier items (225lb).

I like the current balance with the lighter front springs I mentioned before.

Steve Holmes

10-18-2011, 10:22 PM

Thanks Chad, thats some really good info. So with the throttle induced oversteer coming on a little too early, thats got to be good for the crowds, but not so good for the rear tyres?

OCTARD-USA

10-18-2011, 11:37 PM

So with the throttle induced oversteer coming on a little too early, thats got to be good for the crowds, but not so good for the rear tyres?

And not so good for getting around the track as quickly as you'd like.

Steve Holmes

10-19-2011, 09:22 PM

Ahh yes, the dilemma for many racers; showmanship versus lap times. One wins the adoration of the crowd, the other wins races. But sadly showmanship rarely wins races.

Kiwiboss

10-24-2011, 10:21 PM

This is the imported Goodyear Blue Streaks for HMC, only one NEW set left so looking like the tyre for our group!!!

Dale Mathers

Steve Holmes

10-25-2011, 01:36 AM

The latest HMC Newsletter put together by Dale:

Greetings HMC Followers and Racers

First up we must congratulate Arthur Vowles, Bernie Hines and the Historic under 3 Litre T&C Saloon group for their first and successful race meeting at the HRC Icebreaker event last month. They had a great field of 15 cars with more to come. This group will be racing with HMC at the Festival of Speed January 21st to 29th and because they’re under 3L don’t for one minute think they are slow . There are some very quick cars in this group that'll give us V8 guys a run for our money, and if it rains look out(it’s not going to though).

Once again Steve Holmes has some great articles in the current issues of NZV8 and NZ Classic Car magazines (out today), always worth a read. Progress is slowly building amongst HMC with some furiously working on cars to ready them for Januarys Festival of Speed. There are several others that won’t make it and that’s OK as we are looking forward to the future, not just this one event .

As I’ve mentioned in the past, all cars must be Motorsport NZ T&C and HMC correct, we want quality not quantity. The HMC rules are based on the original MSNZ T&C Historic and Classic Commission Regulations that have been in place in the MSNZ manual since the mid 80's, this is the foundation of HMC, you guys should read it when time permits.

Once Januarys(2012) Festival of Speed is finished our follow up events will be the Tasman Revival, 18/19th Feb at Hampton Downs and the Legends of Speed, 24/5th March at Pukekohe. I’m working on one further event possibly at Manfield towards the end of summer, will keep you posted on this one, otherwise this summer will be steady as she goes.

It is looking very likely we may have several cars from the Australian Trans Am group based out of Brisbane to race with us in January. Still early days yet and a few technical issues to sort but once the final go ahead is given I’ll let you all know. To piece this together will be great for NZ and Australian Historic Motorsport and most likely instigate the old Trans Tasman rivalry wars from days gone by, gotta be good stuff!!

Several technical questions have come through in the last month which I’m very pleased about, as it means you are seriously looking at the rules http://www.grandprix.org.nz/nz-muscle-cars.wse . Sometimes to understand a wording or ruling can be difficult, so feel free to call or E-Mail myself dmathers@xtra.co.nz or Tony Roberts tony@hamptondowns.com for clarification. It can save a lot of expense and time later down the road.

One question that came up was about Carburetion, fuel injection, single or multiple carburettors. You are allowed what was raced back in the day, on your particular model vehicle or "Period" vehicle as we call it. The criteria with any "Period" intake system is that it must fit under the "Standard Series Production Bonnet" which quite often wasn't the case back in the day, but for HMC it is a "must". So you can use a "Period" Lucas Fuel Injection system on your Camaro, Corvette, etc but it would have to be a Cross Over/Lay Over system.

Another case which i saw recently at Eastern Creek was on a HK Monaro where this one particular car was running a 350 Chev in group NC and it had 4 side draught webers on a cross over manifold, the owner told me he couldn't use upright IDA webers as they won't fit under the bonnet and as the Monaro's didn't have any suitable "Factory" bonnet scoop for clearance and he isn’t allowed to modify the bonnet under the Australian CAMS Historic rules. The same applies here to HMC, all must fit under the "Standard Series Production Bonnet". Dean Camerons 65 Mustang Fastback is a classic case where upright IDA weber's fit under the correct Shelby bonnet. Why is his Mustang allowed a Shelby bonnet? Well because more than 100 where made on a "Standard Series Production Car" being a 65/6 Mustang body style of the same make and model (they made 562, 65 Shelby's).

The other odd question has been in relation to Cylinder Heads, but this is really pretty much done and dusted as there is enough information (Google) out there these days, so that you just can't get away with any "tall" stories. Of course I got asked what about Rover V8's, well aluminium cylinder heads came on them as a "standard series production car" in which a 100 or more where made!! Poor ol Rovers.

Wheels have been a subject of conversion recently with several going to 15" including myself (see attached photo). I have just imported 10 sets for this class, most are already spoken for, but you can still use your 16" wheels providing they are fitted with the appropriate 50 profile DOT tyre minimum.

Even with a 15" you must use a 50 profile DOT tyre unless you choose to use the allowable "Period" Goodyear Blue Streaks, and although we plan to revert all back to 15" in the future this will be done over a suitable period of time. When this happens your 16's can still be used as a rain tyre set, so all is not lost. As I have mentioned in the past, if you're having to purchase a wheel set now its probably best to buy 15's, several have already ordered Minilites which will look very cool on any American or Aussie Muscle car.

If anyone wants to catch up for a chat i will be racing at the MG Classic, Manfield, November 12/13th, always happy to talk Historic Cars.

Details and entry for January's Festival will be out shortly so keep an eye on their website at http://www.nzfmr.co.nz/ and please enter early. This does 2 things, helps the organisers plan the event layout and you get entry fee's out of the way before X-mas. The Marquee tents are optional but I ask all HMC racers to rent one, whether rain or shine it is worth it and keeps us all grouped together, and although this event is about BMW cars and Motorsport , it is also about Historic Race Cars in general.

Another reminder to check that your MSNZ Race Licence is up to date, if it’s lapsed you will need to resit it again!! Hate for you to turn up at a HMC event with no licence and can't race, its an item that is easily over looked.

Our HMC website is now up and running, www.historicmusclecars.co.nz (http://www.historicmusclecars.co.nz/) and also go to www.theroaringseason.com (http://www.theroaringseason.com/) for great Historic motorsport stuff and online forum.

Here's some great old YouTube video of what Historic Racing is all about, 3 wheeling an all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYQKKlir6sY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC05BE01E213A968E

So that’s about it for me again this month, daylight saving is in and the days are stretching out so keep it up and keep working towards that end goal, and remember our HMC motto "The Cars are the Stars" otherwise you're racing with the wrong class, and make sure you join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their $50 membership deal is a bargain.

Take Care

Dale Mathers
HRC Member
HMC Director
Tauranga, NZL
dmathers@xtra.co.nz
Ph 07-578-8852 anytime

kiwi285

10-25-2011, 05:38 AM

There is some great racing there Dale. Love the Alan Mann Falcon Coupe and the Mk II Cortinas. The drivers are really giving them heaps. The helmuts look like those of Graham Hill and maybe even Jim Clark.

Steve Holmes

10-25-2011, 07:14 AM

Thats good isn't it! I've embedded the footage in here. One of the Cortinas does look to be Hill, and thats him who spears off the track, just stopping short of that pond. I wonder if the rear tyre blew. They sure were leaning heavily on them!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYQKKlir6sY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLC05BE01E213A968E

Rod Grimwood

10-26-2011, 09:56 PM

Note the number on the Cortina, wonder if there is something about that number that makes Fords want to cock a wheel.

Steve Holmes

11-08-2011, 01:36 AM

Its looking increasingly like approx 4 - 8 cars will be headed to New Zealand from Australia for the opening two events of the new Historic Muscle Cars class at the 2012 New Zealand Festival of Motor Racing, Celebrating BMW Motorsport.

The cars are all from the Queensland based Australian Trans-Am Championship, which uses rules similar to those of the original SCCA Trans-Am during the 1966 - 72 period, with a few exceptions made for the sake of cost. Dale should be able to add more info as soon as he gets the chance. There are also several Australian Group Nc Historic Touring Cars which compete in the class.

More info on this class can be found here: http://www.transamracing.com.au/

4507

4506

4504

4505

Steve Holmes

11-08-2011, 01:40 AM

The addition of the Aussie teams going up against the Kiwi HMC cars should help re-ignite some of the old Trans-Tasman rivalries that were so popular during the late 1960s and early '70s.

Steve Holmes

11-16-2011, 09:33 PM

This Ford Capri Perana replica is owned by Tom Lancaster and is set to go for the opening HMC event. The Perana was a South African special, being a V8 powered Capri produced in small numbers.

4582

Steve Holmes

11-16-2011, 09:37 PM

This is Dave Sturrocks 67 Camaro. Is undergoing a big rebuild, including engine, rollcage, paint etc. Dave had just fitted his Minilites and Goodyear Bluestreak tyres for this shot. The car will eventually be blown apart for paint, and probably won't be ready in time for the opening HMC event, but will be a welcome addition when it arrives. Dave is a member on here, I'm hoping he'll run a thread on the build of this car.

4583

kiwi285

11-18-2011, 12:51 AM

Will be fantastic to see some of the Aussie TransAm cars make the journey across the ditch. Hopefully this will stir up even more interest on both sides of the Tasman and get more cars to the grid. Nothing like a bit of Trans Tasman rivalry to stir the pot.

Steve Holmes

11-18-2011, 04:52 AM

This is Graeme Duffys 68 Firechicken being built for HMC. Still about 6 months from completion. Paint scheme is based on the Jerry Titus Firebird as it ran at Daytona in 1969. Titus joined the Terry Godsall Firebird team in late 1968 after leaving the Shelby Ford factory team.

4590

Murray Maunder

11-30-2011, 12:28 AM

Kiwiboss

11-30-2011, 09:53 AM

Yes, just got back from Aus, was invited to the Australian Trans Am dinner/prize giving saturday night at Wynnum, Brisbane and gave a brief speech, then spoke with each individual about Hampton Downs, NZ classic racing in general and our Historic Muscle Car group. They are an invited group and run to there own rules which differ's from HMC, but i'd say across the board not much ontrack difference. So far 5 have logged on and paid for the Januarys Festival with one more to come, so thats 4 Camaro's, one Mustang and a group Nc XUI Torana!! and offcourse half them are Kiwis anyway as QLD really is the "West Island" LOL. Some of these Aussies have never been to NZ so lets do our best to make these guys welcome in Jan as this is a big effort of there behalf and great support for our HMC group.

At this stage im working on 10 HMC cars, 5 Aussie Trans Am cars and 1 Nc Aussie Torana along with say 20 under 3L Saloons which will give us a pretty good feild to kick of HMC and the under 3L saloons and GT's. Hopefully, just hopefully this will start a presidence in NZ classic and Historic racing? probably wishfull thinking on my behalf but time will tell.

Dale Mathers

kiwi285

11-30-2011, 07:30 PM

Sounds like a really great field for January. Thanks for all your efforts Dale and Steve.

Steve Holmes

12-01-2011, 02:22 AM

Dale tells me that six Aussies are planning to bring their cars over for the first big go at HD. With the Kiwis who look like they will be starters plus the 0-3000 class it should be a great grid - maybe 32 - 35.

Of course it would be great to have 25-30 musclecars but what was a good grid of big-bangers in the 70s anyway? Even when Beechey, Moffatt and Geoghegen came over I don't reckon the number often reached double figures and a grid would be strongly represented by Escorts, Coopers and Imps.

Yep, you're right there Murray. In fact, other than the Trans-Am series, wherever there were V8 tin tops being raced anywhere in the world, there were only usually 6-8 V8 cars at best, with the rest of the field being made up with smaller capacity machines. Take the final year of the Improved Production category in Australia as an example, 1972. There was Bob Janes Camaro, Allan Moffat Mustang, and Pete Geoghegans GTHO Falcon. Norm Beechey ran most events with his HT Monaro, but this car was geting long in the tooth and was really no longer competitive. John Harvey ran a couple of races in Bob Janes new HQ Monaro, plus Malcolm Ramsey had an F5000 powered HQ Kingswood. And that was it for the big bangers. The rest of the fields were put together with small capacity cars and Series Production cars.

So in a way we're spoiled with modern historic racing as there have been so many cars built for this, much more so than there ever was in period.

Kiwiboss

12-23-2011, 02:02 AM

This is Dave Hands 69 Mustang FB, he's just fitted his Minilite wheels and goodyear blue Streaks, some fine tweeking and he's ready to go for Januarys Festival!!!

Dale Mathers

OCTARD-USA

12-23-2011, 04:02 AM

Dave's car looks outstanding! I love the look of the period size wheels and tyres.

kiwi285

12-23-2011, 10:07 PM

Roll on next month so that we can see these great cars doing their thing - with the drivers hanging on for dear life. LOL

nigel watts

12-23-2011, 11:47 PM

I've bought my ticket for the second weekend & can't wait to see these cars up close & personal.

Kiwiboss

12-24-2011, 12:18 AM

The interest in HMC as a true historic saloon class for NZ has been fantastic, we have 12 HMC legal cars for the Festival, sure i could relent and let in those that don't quite comply but that's been the problem with all the other NZ class's over the years, and once you do where do you stop!! So along with the 6 Aussie Trans Am cars and about 15 U3L T&C Saloons we will have a 30 car grid, not bad to kick off, and we must thank our good mate here at the Roaring Season, Steve Holmes for the magazine advertising to lift HMC's profile!!!

I still have 3 futher HMC racers spannering away over the break in hope of making it, Steve Malam being one with the Murray Brown Camaro rebuild, which i must say is looking amazing!!

You all have a great X-Mas/New Year and see you at Hampton, Jaunary!!

Dale Mathers

Steve Holmes

12-24-2011, 04:28 AM

Awesome work Dale. You've done an amazing job with this class, and in such a short time frame. 12 months ago it was just a concept! Now look at where you are!

Steve Holmes

12-30-2011, 12:31 AM

"The Rat" Paul Radisich To Race With HMC

5095

When the new Historic Muscle Cars class makes its event debut at the opening weekend of the 2012 New Zealand Festival of Motor Racing, Celebrating BMW motorsport, one of NZs most popular and successful race drives will be on the grid, behind the wheel of one of the countries most historic race cars. "The Rat", Paul Radisich will be driving the famous Ivan Segedin Fleetwood Motors Mustang, the first Mustang to race in NZ. Radisich was invited to race the Mustang at the 2012 NZFMR by the cars owner, Neil Tollich, who has campaigned the famous Mustang in both NZ, England, and Europe, during his ownership of the car.

Tollich has fitted the Mustang with a set of Goodyear Bluestreak cross-ply tyres.

Says Radisich on the NZFMR website:
"I have never competed or driven at Hampton Downs so I am looking forward to that experience," he said. "All competitors have raved about the circuit so here is my chance to judge it for myself.
"I've had experience with the [Ford] Galaxie in the UK and also a V8 Cyclone and a Lotus Cortina which Roger Wills and I competed with in Europe together, so you could say I have enough experience with the old cars on the grooved tyres.

Radisich will race the Mustang during both weekends of the event: "It's going to be a lot of fun and they'll be fantastic back-to-back weekends of great motorsport. The key to me going fast in the Mustang will be seeing how far you can hang the car out in a power slide without losing it. That is the difference between modern and historic racing. I can enjoy some big power slides in the Mustang and it should help the times."

More info on the New Zealand Festival of Motor Racing can be found at: www.nzfmr.co.nz (http://www.nzfmr.co.nz)

5094

Photos by Terry Marshall

kiwi285

01-07-2012, 12:30 AM

I understand that Steve will be joining us at the BMW Festival for the first weekend only. For those that have not met him here is your chance to put a face to the name. I would imagine that he will be spending a fair amount of time in Dale's (Kiwiboss) pit with the Historic Muscle Car group.

Please make yourself known to Steve and the rest of us.

Cheers Mike

Kiwiboss

01-07-2012, 12:47 AM

Thanks for the posting mike, Yes steve will be amongst us for all of the first weekend, he will be at the track all 3 days!! I will intro him at our drivers briefing but otherwise im sure he will be "milling" about with his camera so watch out, LOL. Otherwise he will be hanging out at the HMC Marquee so you only need to ask!!!

Dale Mathers

kiwi285

01-07-2012, 10:29 PM

Here is a photo taken of Paul beside his original fastback Anglia. Great to see them together again after so many moons. Paul was very obliging and keen to be photographed and to sign anything for the fans.

http://i42.tinypic.com/rbxv0o.jpg

Shano

01-08-2012, 04:55 AM

Paul was very obliging. I had a long chat with him - he had some sensational machines and had excellent, detailed, recall about them.

Kiwiboss

01-08-2012, 08:53 AM

In the USA they have Dan Gurney, Parnelli Jones, etc, England has many such as Stirling Moss, Aussies have Geoghegan brothers, Moffat, JB so here in NZ we need to honour our own Motorsport legends while they still around, and these Festivals are the place to do that!! I spoke with Paul a few days ago and he's keen to come back, i know he really enjoyed himself last year, but was a bit apprehensive as he didn't know what to expect but once settled in he was away, and now we have Dennis also!! Both them understand what we are trying to do with HMC and totally support us and how Historic Racing should be, so great to have them on our side!!

Dale Mathers

GD66

01-08-2012, 10:59 AM

Dead right Dale, and the problem is exacerbated in NZ because most of our motorsport heroes from the dim and distant past are not only normal, shoulder-rubbing blokes, but also largely come from the "aw-shucks" school of dealing with fame and notoriety.
Nevertheless, it's very important that we impart to them the impact they have made on our memories, and the part they've played in NZ's motorsport history. If we don't tell them, and it's not noted, then it's all been for bugger-all !
And we all know that's not true... this fabulous website is testament to that.:)

kiwi285

01-08-2012, 07:25 PM

Agree with all of the above. They were our hero's and they are the ones who stirred us up enough to want to continue with motorsport either by participating or just spectating. We all had our particular heros and would go along to support them and to see how they got on. They deserve a big vote of thanks from all of us.

Steve Holmes

01-09-2012, 05:42 AM

Heres a beautiful Terry Marshall shot showing Paul Fahey and Dennis Marwood doing what they do best.

5272

Rod Grimwood

01-09-2012, 08:48 AM

That is one for the Autograph.
Make a good backdrop for them when they are on board.

Murray Maunder

01-09-2012, 08:43 PM

Great Terry Marshall photo - "Baypark Raceway, where the real motor race action is!"
I am always scanning the backgrounds to see if I can find any of my old mates (or even myself!)

Fantastic that Dale is trying to also get the old champions recognised. Yes the stars are the cars but without guys like Paul Fahey that great era of kiwi motorsport would have been diminished greatly. I met Dennis at the McLaren Festival in 2010 - he is a lovely, modest guy and the fire still burns in him.

Grant Ellwood

01-09-2012, 11:55 PM

Regarding Dennis Marwood, certainly one of the greats of NZ motorsport, wish he had made it to F1. Dennis was probably the cleanest driver I have seen, no deliberate push and shove moves and a real thinking, tactical competitor.
And a gentleman off-track too.

Great Terry Marshall photo - "Baypark Raceway, where the real motor race action is!"
I am always scanning the backgrounds to see if I can find any of my old mates (or even myself!)

Fantastic that Dale is trying to also get the old champions recognised. Yes the stars are the cars but without guys like Paul Fahey that great era of kiwi motorsport would have been diminished greatly. I met Dennis at the McLaren Festival in 2010 - he is a lovely, modest guy and the fire still burns in him.

Kiwiboss

01-10-2012, 12:43 AM

Too all forum members, heres a sneak preview of our HMC Tee Shirts, just turned up from the USA so will have them For Sale at Hampton for $20 each, a bunch of different colours!! so bring some money, how could you say no!!

Dale Mathers

kiwi285

01-10-2012, 01:02 AM

I'll bet that they don't last long. They look great Dale

Steve Holmes

01-10-2012, 01:41 AM

These A3 Fahey/Marwood posters will be available at the HMC pits at the NZFMR, where both of these drivers will be available to sign them. But be quick! Special thanks to Terry Marshall for supplying this beautiful photo for the posters.

5281

Steve Holmes

01-12-2012, 12:38 AM

This Dennis Marwood poster will also be available at HD.

5367

Steve Holmes

01-12-2012, 12:39 AM

As will be a few Paul Fahey posters from last years event.

5368

Kiwiboss

01-12-2012, 09:03 AM

For those interested, i've just crunched the numbers of our HMC/ATA and U3L Saloons for the Festival, with the Aussies added we have 7 Camaro's and 7 Mustangs, 1 Javelin, 2 Toranas, 1 Monaro, 1 Jaguar, and 1 Capri V6 and thats not counting the small Saloons and there will be atleast 15 of them!! we got ourselves a very respectable field!!!

So its all shaping up pretty well, lets hope the weather does!!

Dale Mathers

Steve Holmes

01-12-2012, 09:09 AM

Check out Dales announcement on the Fahey/Marwood thread. Jim Richards will be present also at the HMC camp: http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?423-Paul-Fahey-and-Dennis-Marwood-will-be-at-the-Festival-Hampton-Downs/page2

JR posters will be available.

5388

pallmall

01-20-2012, 10:07 AM

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/359700x392.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/345700x471.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/293700x470.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/291700x476.jpg

pallmall

01-20-2012, 10:08 AM

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/290700x525.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/081700x344.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/074700x387.jpg

Murray Maunder

01-20-2012, 11:34 AM

If you missed practice today, get down to HD this weekend. The HMC are the stars! Great turnout of camaros, mustangs and all, and the supporting cast of escorts, vivas and so on are worthy reminders of the great days of NZ saloon car racing.

Also a standout to meet Jim Richards and all the other friendly people, including friends from The Roaring Season for the first time!

Thanks for the photos PallMall, we must have been standing nearby and didn't meet!

Murray Maunder

01-21-2012, 12:09 AM

HMC got off to a great start yesterday - what a field. I shot a bit of footage at turn 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfhOWYRwq2I

Turn the sound up!

pallmall

01-21-2012, 08:40 AM

More photos, these from the 2 races today.
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/017700x447.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/031700x433.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/069700x522.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/070700x528.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/098700x455.jpg

pallmall

01-21-2012, 08:42 AM

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/360700x377.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/373700x352.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/382700x453.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/384700x464.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i275/Checraft/Motor%20Racing%20Saloons/396700x487.jpg

TonyG

01-21-2012, 09:54 AM

Awesome shots.

nigel watts

01-21-2012, 09:59 AM

Roll on next weekend!

Kiwiboss

01-22-2012, 09:53 AM

Great shots Pallmall, my arms are pleasantly sore tonight, what a weekend!!!! shame about our wet Sunday morning race, the track was very slippery and i expected a safety car which is what we got!!! Steve Malam(Yellow 70 Camaro) had a brake pipe break causing him the run off and hit the tyre barrier, light damage and he's OK.

Im sure further great shots will surface once Mike Feisst gets to his computer!!

Dale Mathers

TonyG

01-22-2012, 02:13 PM

Hopefully Nigel got some shots. He always has great shots as well.

kiwi285

01-23-2012, 12:44 AM

Here are a couple of shots of the happy group on Saturday afternoon at the prizegiving performed by Jim Richards, Paul Fahey and Dennis Marwood and made possible by Dale. There were some encouraging words spoken by all those involved and even Jim said that he would like to bring over his Falcon Sprint to race next year if possible.

http://i39.tinypic.com/27zkzs3.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/14jwbcg.jpg

Shano

01-23-2012, 03:58 AM

Who's going to I.D. all the drivers for us?

seaqnmac27

01-23-2012, 05:12 AM

This is Dave Hands 69 Mustang FB, he's just fitted his Minilite wheels and goodyear blue Streaks, some fine tweeking and he's ready to go for Januarys Festival!!!

Dale Mathers

Dale where is Dave Hands from?

Kiwiboss

01-23-2012, 07:12 AM

Dale where is Dave Hands from?

Daves out of Auckland, use to race in Production and although not fast he really wants to support a more period Historic race group here in NZ, his Mustang looked just fantastic on the minilites and Goodyears!! we need to nuture guys like Dave.

Dale Mathers

kiwi285

01-23-2012, 09:06 AM

http://i41.tinypic.com/2nia2j4.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2nm2e1h.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/scgj88.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/156xp38.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/2jd4wg.jpg

Kiwiboss

01-29-2012, 11:14 AM

How about the drive from Angus Fogg in the last race today!! although it broke(over heated i believe) i can't ever remember seeing a Mini go that fast, and boy was he monstered by American iron!! I'm sure some pics will surface.

Otherwise, that racing was HOT.

Dale Mathers

nigel watts

01-29-2012, 09:34 PM

Dale, I reckon the HMC was a great success. It was especially interesting to see the under 3000's mixing it with the V8's keeping you guys on your toes. I wasn't there yesterday so missed Angus' epic drive [bugger] but Saturdays performance by him & Howard Wood was mightily impressive as was the roar of the V8's. The slippin & sliding provided by the Goodyears is something we spectators have been missing for many years and it's FANTASTIC to have it back.
When is the next meeting for HMC?

nigel watts

01-29-2012, 09:38 PM

5778

nigel watts

01-29-2012, 10:01 PM

5779

5780

5781

5782

5783

5784

nigel watts

01-29-2012, 10:03 PM

5785

5786

5787

5788

5789

5790

Murray Maunder

01-29-2012, 10:32 PM

Wow - just looking at the photos and the official results I can see I missed a great weekend's musclecar racing.

"The cars are the stars" is a great strapline. However for this event (see post #96) they were on this occasion rivalled by the three gentlemen who are part of NZ "big banger" history. Dale you have put a helluva effort into making this thing a success and the great support you have received must make all the effort, phone calls, correspondence, time away from your business, and overseas travel, seem worthwhile.

The F5000s have always been the stars of NZFOMR and it's great to see it continues to thrive - and the 60 second barrier broken at HD. However given the depth in the two saloon classes that competed together over the two weekends, you must already be close to knocking the fast but fragile F5000s off their perch. With all the safety car intrusion they suffered, I'm sure the combined 0 - 3000cc and over 3000cc classes provided a better spectacle in many respects.

The guys in the smaller class must also be congratulated for playing their part. Great to see Howard and Angus and others reminding us of how "giant killing" minis and escorts etc used to spice up the battle and not just make up the numbers.

Hugely encouraging, when's the next bash Dale?

PS - Lovely photos as always Nigel!

nigel watts

01-29-2012, 10:38 PM

5791

5792

5793

5794

5795

5796

AMCO72

01-29-2012, 10:40 PM

nigel watts

01-29-2012, 10:46 PM

5797

Murray Maunder

01-29-2012, 10:50 PM

nigel watts

01-29-2012, 10:51 PM

5798

5799

5800

5801

5802

5803

nigel watts

01-29-2012, 10:53 PM

5805

5806

5807

5804

nigel watts

01-29-2012, 11:38 PM

5808

More to come later - I'm off to the beach

kiwi285

01-30-2012, 12:10 AM

I would have to say that the HMC races had the patrons stacked up to the fenceline as much as the F5000 cars. There was a lot of happy banter both during and after the races and they were really impressed by the line up of cars. For me it was like a trip back to the days of yore when we really looked forward to the next installment and to the new cars likely to be seen on the grid.

Both Howard Wood and the Fogg's put on spectatular shows and were fantastic to watch when the weather gave them a helping hand. Angus beat the heart out of the Mini but to see that car either leading or in the midst of the V8 pack brought back some great memories to all who witnessed the shows. He had a grin a mile wide after each race where the car didn't expire from the thrashing he gave it.

HMC take a bow - it was an excellent show all round especially the smoked tires around the whole of the sweeper leading into the start/finish straight. Craig had some marvellous in car video footage of this and I hope he can post it for the benefit of those who weren't there to witness the events.

Nigels fantastic shots do justice to some great moments on track - great to meet up with you too.

Kiwiboss

01-30-2012, 03:54 AM

Yes Dale, we did have some 'issues' with the AMCO Mini over the second weekend. It was fine with me on the first weekend, but then my driving could be best described as 'fast' rather than racing!! The cooling of the water and oil in the new engine is woefully inadequate. We have tried very hard to keep everything in period, but old Cooper S radiators were never up to much in their day, and are certainly hopeless now. But, we have the technology, I think, to correct the problems, which we probably would have found out if we had had time for a test, instead of using the Festival as a test session. Never mind, Angus had a huge amount of fun racing with the American Muscle..... is just the sort of challenge that he likes, and gave the crowd something to cheer about.....the little guys against the big guys. I also have to complememt your drivers in the over 3 litre class, as it was sometimes difficult to see the Mini as a number of your class were left-hand drive, and through some of the corners was a pretty close thing, but thankfully there was no contact. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you Dale for being such a good co-ordinator, giving your time generously to chat to all sorts of people asking silly questions and being patient with them, when I'm sure you could have been checking tyres or oil or something. The whole weekend was a credit to you all......we will be back with a cooler car next time!!!

Gerald, having Angus(Mini) and Howard(BMW 2002) perform at the level they did amongst all that heavy iron was fantastic and just the exposure we need for HMC and U3L Histroic Saloons and GT's, and didn't the Aussie's show the way, they proved that with limited equipment you can get these cars to go, 350 engines only, 98 pump gas, drums on the rear, no dry sumps, limited front brakes and most important 15" wheels!!! i spoke non stop the whole weekend explaining that one can feild a "Historic" car and still play up front with a limited budget, the proof was Angus, Howard and the Aussie's!! and all those resisiting the 15 wheel change have NO answer, i was just luving it!!!

And as for been Co-ordinator, all i had to do was "push that stone of the mountain top" that now can't be stopped, I also must thank Robin and Karen Greenland and Mike Wigmore, these 3 done a great job of releaving the pressure from me by sorting grid positions and handling all sorts of issues, well done you 3!! and as always these events are a TEAM effort.

Pleasantly worn out, more to come!!

Dale Mathers

Howard Wood

01-30-2012, 07:34 AM

What a great two weekends, we started 16 races including the BMW races and finished 15 with only a sheared bolt on the alternator bracket which caused an engine temp spike (but caught in time) spoiling a perfect record but more importantly met a lot of neat people and finally found someone who spends less on clothes than I do, Dale..

Along with Gerald, I too want to thank you Dale for all the effort that has gone into the weekends. These things don't get off the ground by themselves but this was bigger than that and I think will become a runaway train. The under 3 litre class needs someone to do a Dale, I wish I could volunteer but don't have the time. Maybe, if a person with both the technical and organisational/ publicity skills can't be found, a couple of people with the complementary skill set may out there. Hello, any volunteers?

ps. Thank you Robin and Karen, outstanding, a little sticker with grid position placed on the steering wheel well before each race and a results sheet as soon as they were available. Believe me, that did not happen in all the classes I ran in and makes everything run so much more smoothly, even if Angus managed to snaffle a better grid position when one of the Mustangs was in the wrong grid box!

Kiwiboss

01-30-2012, 09:10 AM

Dale - when you get a chance, can you give us a summary of how HMC is looking post NZFOMR?

How is the tyre choice scenario panning out?

How did the Aussies enjoy the event and their time here?

What sort of parity exists in your opinion between the Aussie TransAm specs and HMC's as it certainly looked like there were about 10 or more guys really getting among the action?

Is it realistic to think that a similar support may continue (or even grow) for Aussie's to come here and for the Kiwis to reciprocate?

Pete Hanna would be smiling the way the weekend(s) reflected the best of times at Baypark when he imported Aussie drivers to liven things up.

Murray, wouldn't ol Hanna just luv it!! shame he ain't still around, RIP must be close to 15 years now!!

Im working with Tony and Chris for one more event before summer's out(yeah, what summer), maybe the Legends in march? but what im really wanting to do is set in concrete the 12/13 summer season so all can have plenty of time to set those dates aside!!! and hopefully the U3L Historic Saloons can get themselves sorted(they on there way i know) as at this stage we still need to lean on each other.

The 15" tyres are magic, myself, Craig Stacy and Kevin Gimblett purchased 3 leftover sets from the Aussie's and even Steve Malam can see the sense in 15", as really they have a performance advantage, lots of sideways as well as the period look, exactly what we're after. I luv'd the Goodyears and laid down a fast 1:13.9 which is a big drop from my previous 1:15.8 on toyo's!! of-course we had Howard and Angus in the 1:16's as well so all very close!! the time frame i've given is mainly that most need to remount calipers for smaller front rotors, not a hard job.

The Aussie's all had a BLAST big time, and much talk about coming back for Hulme with more cars!!! I'll let them settle for a month and review it all from there. There was much talk about bring the 2 class's closer and reviewed the differences as really there's not much in it, something to work towards!! and im sure we will get over there for a play, i can see myself, Stacey and others blasting around Lakeside!!

Otherwise, onwards and upwards.

And your rite Howard, having Robin and Karen sort the grids, number the steering wheels, call us when ready, etc was fantastic, even the Aussie's thought that was a good idea and are going to do the same back home!! goes to show we all need to keep an open mind

PS: can't afford clothes with my motorsport habit!! LOL

Dale Mathers

nigel watts

01-30-2012, 10:25 AM

5817

5818

5819

5820

5821

5822

nigel watts

01-30-2012, 10:27 AM

5823

5824

5825

5826

5827

5828

nigel watts

01-30-2012, 10:34 AM

5831

5830

5832

5833

5834

5835

nigel watts

01-30-2012, 10:36 AM

5837

5836

5838

5839

5840

5841

nigel watts

01-30-2012, 10:37 AM

5843

5842

5844

5845

5846

5847

nigel watts

01-30-2012, 10:42 AM

5849

5851

5850

5852

5848

5853

nigel watts

01-30-2012, 10:44 AM

5855

5854

kiwi285

01-30-2012, 08:38 PM

We also need to give a big vote of thanks to Dale for his thoughtfullness in arranging so many trophies that were awarded on the first Saturday afternoon whilst Jim Richards was still at the meeting. I thought that was a great idea and would have been really appreciated by the competitors and not just those who ended up at the front at flag time. A great gesture Dale.

TonyG

01-30-2012, 11:46 PM

Love that shot of the Richards escort Nigel. The twist in that thing is amazing lol.
Sound like a fantastic event was had by all and I am glad the racing was close between both sides of the ditch.
I can't wait for the classic events at Lakeside this year as last years were a ball so if some of you can make it over it will be fantastic. I will have the camera ready to catch the action.
Regards
Tony

nigel watts

01-31-2012, 01:23 AM

Gives 'lifting a wheel' a whole new meaning

Steve Holmes

02-13-2012, 10:03 PM

Dales HMC February 2012 Newsletter, as below:

Greeting HMC Fans, Followers and Racers

WOW, what a month (or two) it’s been, and what about those Aussie Trans Am cars at the Hampton Festival of Motor Racing? It just goes to show that with limited equipment you can get them to go, max 350 CI engines, 98 pump gas, rear drum brakes, standard gearbox’s, no dry sumps, limited front brakes and most important of them all “15inch Wheels and Tyres” and didn’t they show the way, even in my boss racer with a lot better equipment and more HP I struggled to keep up with the front running guys, a lesson learnt for us all. Otherwise it was a fantastic display with just 2.9 seconds covering the top 12 cars, and with our HMC top 10 reverse grid format it provided a chance for most, with 4 different winners on the first weekend. Then in our last reverse grid race at the second weekend we had Angus Fogg in the mighty Mini on outside pole with 20 Muscle cars right behind him, imagine looking in his review mirror, just amazing. I personally want to thank all 14 of the HMC car owners that made the effort to correct their cars and enter and also the 6 Australian Trans Am cars, along with the 14 Under 3L Historic Saloons and GT’s and Robin & Karen Greenland for an excellent job as group coordinator’s, Thank You All.

Here’s some Youtube from the first weekend qualifying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UfhOWYRq2I

The general feed back has been excellent with lots of pit talk and banter and a possible few new racers on the horizon. What more could you have asked for than having the very first ever Mustang to race in New Zealand, the Neil Tolich owned Fleetwood Mustang racing with us at our first ever HMC event and with our own Paul Radisich at the wheel. I know briefly speaking with Paul that he really enjoyed himself and this really cements HMC as a true Historic Muscle Car Saloon class, thanks Neil and Paul. On the Saturday of the first weekend we had our own mini prize giving with Jim Richards, Paul Fahey and Dennis Marwood all giving out trophy’s in their own names, this was quite special to have these 3 great New Zealand Saloon racers on hand to support “Historic Muscle Cars” ending with a excellent speech from Jim Richards himself. Jim, Paul and Dennis we all thank you for your time and would really love to have you back for the Denny Hulme Festival in a years time.

I raced at the Skope Classic at Ruapuna last weekend, mainly to connect with some possible Historic racers in the South Island, the racing was great with 6 races along with practice and qualifying. But the classes are very spread out with myself and even Bernie Hines in his Broadspeed Mini racing with 900HP Porsche’s and other modern cars. Not quite “Classic” but still good fun indeed. I made contact with several Pre 78 Mustang, Camaro and Holden racers that are very keen to follow HMC’s rules and eventually come North and race with HMC. For some reason they have a better understanding of what we are trying to do and although 2 cars had Alloy cylinder heads both said they will remove them, that’s commitment if you ask me. HMC will support any South Island racer wanting to join our ranks.

Obviously with the 2 Festival events now over and with HMC set as a firm Historic Muscle car class where winning is not important, the inquiry via E-mail and phone has been constant.

It appears to be attracting the type of person that wants to race for FUN and not only respecting his own machinery but also those of other racers. I have one person looking to build a South African Viva Firenza Can Am, basically a Viva with a small block chev engine, and as they made a 101 Can Am's we welcome this type of vehicle built to HMC rules. Sure will be a whole lot of fun to drive. We have some minor regulatory issue's that myself, Steve and Tony are sorting through and as new members join and new cars appear we plan keep a stringent watch on the goings on, remember the rules must be for "everyone" NO exceptions.

I have been working with HRC about further HMC race dates, we did have some lined up before this summer is out, but it is now looking very unlikely. So with this in mind we have set out next summers dates as follows. These are all confirmed so note these dates down.

1 - Ice Breaker, 29/30th September 2012 at Hampton Downs
2 - Denny Hulme Festival, 18/20th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
3 - Denny Hulme Festival, 25/27th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
4 - Legends of Speed, 23/4th March 2013 at Hampton Downs

We may also have one further TACCOC event in November this year but is not yet established. Some may ask, why not Pukekohe but with their now strict noise limits its quite possible some V8 cars won't pass.

Also check out the current NZV8 for Steve Holmes monthly article about last months event, and further articles in up and coming Classic Car magazine.

Also in today’s high tech world it is a must to keep up with the play on the
http://www.theroaringseason.com/forumdisplay.php?2-General-Discussion
with some fantastic pictures at http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?65-New-Zealand-Historic-Muscle-Cars-Under-HRC

OK, that’s all from me this month, boy do I need a rest, any questions and queries don't hesitate to contact myself, Tony or Steve. Remember if you are changing your car back to suit HMC/MSNZ T&C Rules or building a new racer you will not be racing with other non conforming cars, its a level playing field for all.
I know I don't have to remind you, but remember, the "The Cars are the Stars" so that’s all from me for February 2012, feel free to contact me or anyone of the directors below.

To race and be a part of HMC you need to join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their $50 membership deal is a bargain and is required to race.

Take care and enjoy your Historic Motor sport

Murray Maunder

02-15-2012, 04:38 AM

Steve, just to correct that link (above in post #124) the Musclecar qualifying video is actually at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfhOWYRwq2I&list=UUssaSL2jwLUXT6u5E673cSg&index=3&feature=plcp

Great to see it's proving popular in NZ and Australia.

Steve Holmes

02-15-2012, 05:08 AM

Thanks Murray, I just edited your post and embedded the video into it.

Kiwiboss

02-23-2012, 10:03 AM

To keep you guys up to-date, i receive various E-mails from time to time about HMC, mainly about vehicle eligibility or some specific rule but today i received this one and thought i better share it with you all. So thanks very much Lindsay, i hope you don't mind me sharing your words here, because it depicts exactly the spirit and past memories of NZ historic saloon racing we here at HMC are trying attract. Thank You :)

Hi Dale
We haven’t met but as a spectator at the recent Festival of Motorsport can I say how much I loved the show the Historic Muscle Cars put on. What wonderful memories of Puke, Bay Park and Levin in the late 60s early 70s. Together with the F5000s, you made my weekend. Anyway, other than saying congratulations for a great start to the Historic Muscle Car class, the reason for the email is to ask if there are opportunities to get involved to support the class. I don’t have a car and I’m no mechanic, but I’d love to see the class grow. Is there some help you need with perhaps with admin or publicity? I’m Auckland (North Shore based).

Lindsay M****

Steve Holmes

03-05-2012, 09:16 PM

Dale (Kiwiboss) sent me these to post here, as featured in Gasoline magazine, and sent to him by John English in Queensland after the 6 car Aussie invasion on HMC at this years NZFMR.

6479

6480

6478

SATIATOR

03-24-2012, 02:45 AM

GD66

03-24-2012, 06:20 AM

Wow Dale, things appear to be going gangbusters for HRC ! You and the guys are to be congratulated, and it must be very rewarding to see all your hard work has not only been well directed, but appreciated by all involved. More power to your right arm, son !

Regards GD :cool:

TonyG

03-25-2012, 06:45 AM

6913

6912

A Group Nc car that unfortunately will not make it over next year is Keith Boults Falcon GT after a slight mistake at Lakeside yesterday. I did not go but from the post on Facebook it happened coming under the bridge at a very fast part of the track and it rolled 6 times. Thankfully Keith walked away but the car is very sad.
The 2nd shot (of the damaged car) belongs to Mark Jones and is from his Facebook page.

PaulieG

03-25-2012, 07:03 AM

Wow thats a lot of damage:(. Lets hope he knows a good panel beater:p. Those falcons go way too fast

thunder427

03-25-2012, 07:20 AM

TonyG

03-25-2012, 12:35 PM

A couple more posted by the Trans Am group on Facebook.

6917

6918

Kiwiboss

03-25-2012, 08:26 PM

I keep telling the guys at HMC we need to go "Slower" in our old cars, not faster like everyone wants, this is just a shame when i see this!! to bring that Falcon back to life is a huge amount of work!!!

Dale Mathers

AMCO72

03-25-2012, 08:49 PM

TonyG

03-25-2012, 09:45 PM

It is a real waste of a beautiful car. From what I have read elsewhere it happened somewhere here as in my Video.
It had been sprinkling with rain every now and then over the day so most likely a very greasy track.
They get a fair bit of attitude through the right hander then turn left under the bridge which is just out of sight at the top right of the video before dropping down to hungry corner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu0xrtrcU4k&list=UUUDs2N0n44MR5VucteMqwoA&index=1&feature=plcp

6919

6920

Kiwiboss

03-25-2012, 10:52 PM

Dale.....I think I could confidently predict that that body is going nowhere but to the landfill. I dont think even a clever bugger like you could resurrect it. What the heck happened? I said somewhere else that we haven't had that here YET. But everyone is getting pretty keen, and it will. Buy the way, from the photos I've seen posted on here about the Philip Island event, I think we put on just as good a show at HD. We sure as hell didnt end up with damage that happened over that weekend. I think we are on the right track for such a little fart-arsed country at the bottom of the world.

Hell, if i was that clever Gerald i would'nt be in the auto industry!!LOL from the feed back and what i've seen from PI and now this weekend at Lakeside i think your rite, we here in little ol NZ probably do not to bad but like you i can see it coming!! im hoping im wrong though!!

TonyG, how did the TA boys go on the weekend? looked to be a reasonable meeting with the Bowden cars their!! and a good crowd too by the looks!!

Dale Mathers

TonyG

03-26-2012, 04:29 AM

Unfortunately the Bowden cars missed this weekend. I just used the video to show where the GT crashed. The T/A boys had 9 cars there with the Falcon sprint pictured above the latest to join them.
They have many more almost finished but that could not make it this time.
The big one is in July where they should have a full field and the Bowdens amongst others will have their cars on show as well.
If I had known how to use the video fuction properly last year I would have gotten more footage than just my foot lol. What I posted was all I got of the cars unfortunately.

I an trying to get a couple of photographers to post their Trans Am shots here for us.

Rod Grimwood

03-27-2012, 08:30 AM

To me the Phillip Island meet was alot bigger than HD. Made up of more cars and class's and also the spectator display was some thing very different if we could head in this direction with club and make displays it would be a step in right direction. Phillip Island is a fast track. The incidents at Phillip Island could happen anywhere, and i believe some of the really older class's need to be reined in a little bit both there and here.

As mentioned before, slightly different populations etc for the size of meetings, (and we do alright for ourselves) but the cars are still going quick there and here and there is sand and concrete at all tracks, and it does the same to what ever wants to argue.

I hate seeing any damage to any car, especially a Classic. Been there done that, still fixing.

thunder427

03-27-2012, 01:26 PM

Hello all

I just wanted to say what a great event Hampton Downs appears to have been, I coudnt make it to see in person but even so it has inspired me to get on with the Vettes preparation.

In light of that I am selling my 1977 Monza Mirage panels and parts which I have just listed on Trademe.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=460593447

6898

Someone may be interested in them as they would allow the making of a truly unique race car for HMC.

Cheers all.

Kevin

..Frustrating to say the least when 'forum' members advertise thier wares in our Free/'For sale' section,then dont bother to check thier 'posts'..gives eager 'Old buggers' like me 'ring burn' ,so I will have to live with "win some/lose some", I know you where busy etc, but disappointment turns my mouth upside down so I look like the Kid that can't borrow the family car :(...............thunder427/ :confused::(:):p;)

Rod Grimwood

03-27-2012, 11:09 PM

thunder427, do you have another 20c piece to put on another gem, just loved that touch on the big car.

SATIATOR

03-28-2012, 12:42 AM

Yo Thunder427

Hi Myles

Just so you know when I logged in there is no PM notification on the site, so I wouldnt have seen it earlier even if i had been on here!

I have only just logged in, Trademe does have the facility to ask questions and that was what I was watching, hence the link placed here, it also had a BUY-NOW option which could be used anytime!

Someone else pushed the button on Monday morning, so he got them, payment was confirmed this morning hence me updating now to say the deal is complete and the items are:

SOLD SOLD SOLD

Sorry for your dissapointment but I cant spend my whole life on forums etc, I think once they were placed on Saturday it wasnt predictable that anyone would want them at all, next time I will put my E-mail address here that may help!

Cheers
Kevin

..Frustrating to say the least when 'forum' members advertise thier wares in our Free/'For sale' section,then dont bother to check thier 'posts'..gives eager 'Old buggers' like me 'ring burn' ,so I will have to live with "win some/lose some", I know you where busy etc, but disappointment turns my mouth upside down so I look like the Kid that can't borrow the family car :(...............thunder427/ :confused::(:):p;)

thunder427

03-28-2012, 03:59 AM

:cool:Satiator/Kevin, explanation accepted,no issue!!!....just that I had cranked off and got my Monza owner buddy excited with the prospect, so,we move on!!!......with regard thinder427/Myles:cool:

SATIATOR

03-28-2012, 07:19 AM

Cheers Myles

If you keep searching for "monza mirage for sale" in google and keep an eye out in www.ebaymotors.com parts cars or bodies come up about once a year, I see the chap that bought my panels was asking questions on such adds in September 2011. Ive had the panels since 2009 and there always seems to be the odd add out there.

While you were a bit frustrated, I am a bit as well as it leaves me wondering what I could have got for the panels if I had a higher reserve!?

Best of luck,
Kevin.

PS: I see there is a little notification indicator at the top of the scree which i never noticed before.

:cool:Satiator/Kevin, explanation accepted,no issue!!!....just that I had cranked off and got my Monza owner buddy excited with the prospect, so,we move on!!!......with regard thinder427/Myles:cool:

TonyG

04-04-2012, 10:52 AM

7155
7156
7157

Found this on You Tube of the Falcon. He didn't quite make it to the bridge and went off the outside of the track into the armco fencing. He was back at the track on the Sunday chasing parts to build another one I have since been told.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGjhOVQYhRE&feature=relmfu

Kiwiboss

04-04-2012, 08:25 PM

Always a shame to see this, when i bet there was no need for it!! With the distruction PI and now this it kinda makes you wonder what the Aussies are trying to do at Classic race events!! Hmmm

AMCO72

04-04-2012, 08:46 PM

Dale you should get a big sign made.......'SLOW DOWN' The cars are the stars, and there is nothing sadder than a fallen star.

Rod Grimwood

04-05-2012, 11:32 PM

The only way that will happen is when you remove the word 'race" and replace with demonstration. Even then some demo's go wrong.

Kiwiboss

04-06-2012, 09:10 AM

The only way that will happen is when you remove the word 'race" and replace with demonstration. Even then some demo's go wrong.

Rod, Gerald, its a numbers game, do enough racing and somethings bound to happen. At the festival i talked to each individual to express my thoughts on why we are here at this great event!! i did see dump things on track but otherwise was pretty happy!! In 7 years of racing my Boss i've only had two hits both in the RH door and both times the dent pop out, offcourse when I've had/seen known culprits come up apond me i lift of the gas a little and gently pull aside and let them go by, a corner or two later they're usually stuck in the sand trap!! and the reason myself and others have stop racing in some of the other class's/events was the "Probability" was getting too high to be worth the risk! time to move on.

Dale Mathers

Rod Grimwood

04-06-2012, 09:08 PM

Dale a good call, as the other class is good to watch but in conversation it has been mentioned about the progression of speed and moves being pulled. Believe there is room for all classes and you just keep a lid on yours as you and your fellow enthusiats have and i am sure it will grow. It was great to watch. Hope soon to join. (small class to keep Gerald company)

Steve Holmes

04-12-2012, 12:49 AM

The latest addition to the HMC group. Mike Rorisons Mustang notchback.

7235

kiwi285

04-13-2012, 09:41 PM

This class is really starting to add variety to the fields with cars and drivers not seen before. With the beautiful Mustang of Mike Rorison above and also the 65 Falcon 2 door hardtop that Dale has sold recently it is looking good.

Any other news at the moment ??

The destruction of that Falcon would make you weep - heartbreaking

Kiwiboss

04-14-2012, 09:04 AM

Any other news at the moment ??

The destruction of that Falcon would make you weep - heartbreaking

No, not much!! nothing to mention here but all i can say we have alot happening behind the scene!!! I sat down with Tony today at the VCC meeting to review current and future HMC goings on, reg's, state of Historic/Classic racing in general, etc and the out come is all looking pretty good giving the funding issues most of us have!! were still looking at a 3 year build up period to have enough HMC cars to stand alone at certain Historic events, even if half the promised competitors turned up with built and finished cars we'd be laughing. So, all is looking good.

The destruction of that Falcon is indeed very sad, i offern wonder how the owner is feeling these days!! (One small mistake, a lifetime to repair)

Dale Mathers

Kiwiboss

04-28-2012, 11:54 PM

Attached below is our latest HMC E-mailout for those that aren't on my mailing list, if you wish to be added just shoot me and E-mail. The biggest change we've had to make is the "Eligibility List" this has come about after much discussion and all 3 of us hated to do it but were left with no choice as there where several vehicles like a Bolwell Nagari for instance that would qualify but is not a "Muscle car" and would ruin the class with its light weight performance. There was also several other vehicles, mostly pre 78 sports cars that would have the same affect, so below is the list of what we consider a "True Muscle car" and the list it is.

Greeting HMC Fans, Followers and Racers

Bit late this month but lots of interesting inquiry’s stemming from Steve's fantastic "Festival of Motor Racing" article in the current(April) Classic Car magazine, which has forced myself, Tony and Steve to review an HMC vehicle rule policy, this one been vehicle eligibility!! it seems us Kiwi's are great thinkers and will always find away around certain issues and rules, so this been the case using the Standard Series Production Vehicle manufacture of a minimum 100 pre 12/77 vehicle’s, and the over 3 litre engine size limit we've had some very unusual vehicles that would comply, that aren't in the spirit of "Historic Muscle Cars" and historic muscle car racing in general, in fact some of these said vehicles weren't even raced in New Zealand and Australia back in the day. So what we've had to do after much discussion is look across the pond to our Aussie cousins(again) and deal with the situation as they have done, making a "Vehicle Eligibility" list of every vehicle allowed to race with HMC, this list can be viewed shortly at www.historicmusclecars.co.nz but I have added it as below. Currently these changes below should not affect anyone as none have been built, only ideas tossed around so if you do have a vehicle in mind and its not on the list, just contact myself, Tony or Steve to discuss compliance.

Historic Muscle Cars - Eligible Vehicles List
AC/Shelby Cobra 260 1962 – 1963
AC/Shelby Cobra 289 1963 – 1965
Shelby Cobra 427 1965 - 1967
AMC Javelin 1967 – 1974
Chevrolet Camaro 1967 - 1969
Chevrolet Camaro 1970 – 1978
Chevrolet Chevelle 1964 – 1965
Chevrolet Chevelle 1966 – 1967
Chevrolet Chevelle 1968 – 1969
Chevrolet Chevelle 1970 - 1972
Chevrolet Corvette 1953 - 1962
Chevrolet Corvette 1963 - 1967
Chevrolet Corvette 1968 – 1978
Chevrolet Firenza Can-Am
Chevrolet Impala 1961 – 1964
Chevrolet Impala 1965 - 1968
Chevrolet Monza 1975 – 1978
Chevrolet Nova 1962 – 1965
Chevrolet Nova 1966 – 1967
Chevrolet Nova 1968 - 1974
Chrysler Valiant Pacer 1967 – 1970 (VE, VF, VG)
Chrysler Valiant Charger 1971 – 1978 (VH, VJ, VK, CL)
Dodge Challenger 1970 – 1974
Dodge Charger 1966 – 1967
Dodge Charger 1968 – 1970
Dodge Charger 1971 - 1974
Ford Capri V6 MkI 1969 – 1974
Ford Capri V6 MkII 1974 - 1978
Ford Capri Perana
Ford Fairlane 1962 – 1965
Ford Fairlane 1966 – 1967
Ford Fairlane 1968 – 1969
Ford Fairlane 1970
Ford Falcon (US) 1964 -1965
Ford Falcon (US) 1966 – 1970
Ford Falcon (Australia) 1966 – 1971 (XR, XT, XW, XY)
Ford Falcon (Australia) 1972 – 1979 (XA, XB, XC)
Ford Galaxie 1960 – 1964
Ford Galaxie 1965 – 1968
Ford Mustang 1965 – 1966 including Shelby
Ford Mustang 1967 – 1968 including Shelby
Ford Mustang 1969 – 1970 including Shelby
Ford Mustang 1971 - 1973
Ford Mustang 1973 – 1977
Ford Torino 1968 – 1969
Ford Torino 1970 – 1971
Ford Torino 1972 – 1973
Ford Torino 1974 - 1976
Holden Monaro 1968 – 1971 (HK, HT, HG)
Holden Monaro 1971 – 1978 (HQ, HJ, HX), Include HZ GTS
Holden Torana 1967 – 1973 (HB, LC, LJ)
Holden Torana 1974 – 1977 (LH, LX)
Mercury Comet 1964 – 1965
Mercury Comet 1966 – 1967
Mercury Comet 1968 – 1968
Mercury Cougar 1967 – 1968
Mercury Cougar 1969 - 1970
Mercury Cyclone 1969 – 1971
Plymouth Barracuda 1964 – 1966
Plymouth Barracuda 1967 – 1969
Plymouth Barracuda 1970 - 1974
Pontiac Firebird 1967 - 1969
Pontiac Firebird 1970 – 1978
Sunbeam Tiger 260 Series 1 1964 – 1965
Sunbeam Tiger 289 Series 2 1965 - 1967

We are currently working on another rule since the Festival, been "Front Spoilers" as this has come about due to interested partys wanting to use a front spoiler that has the "period" Trans Am look(which we are not against) the same as the Aussies that raced with us in January, but wording this so not to create the wrong impression has been tough, as we don't want homemade sports sedan type air splitters, etc. More to come on this next month.

All the above has the effect of setting a high standard for HMC and is at best, a "Fine Tuning" of the rules. We want as reasonably as possible, a level playing field for all competitors and I’m happy to mention the we ARE about cheque book racing! as NOT in making your lovely classic faster, but making it visually more correct and nicer to the viewing public in the pits and while racing during Historic events.

Below is our next summers race dates:

Next seasons HMC race dates below:

1 - Ice Breaker, 29/30th September 2012 at Hampton Downs
2 - Denny Hulme Festival, 18/20th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
3 - Denny Hulme Festival, 25/27th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
4 - Legends of Speed, 23/4th March 2013 at Hampton Downs

The Ice Breaker is first up this year so aim for this, you have 5 months!! though the winter i'll keep reminding you all, once again we are not about having large fields, we only want HMC and T&C legal cars and if we only 6 or so, so be it. We will be racing with the under 3L Historic Saloons as well, most of us will be ready to dust of our cars(and ourselves) of by the time this event rolls around.

Attached is some great Youtube footage showing the Bowden Collection with DJ and Moffat interviews, courtesy of Mike Fiesst,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QBnRqgg_VKE

Attached here is some fantastic articles on how they made the USA Trans Am car handle: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8227.0;all

Also check out the current NZV8 for Steve Holmes monthly article with ramble about last months event, and further articles in up and coming Classic Car magazine. Also in todays high tech world it is a must to keep up with the play on the http://www.theroaringseason.com/forumdisplay.php?2-General-Discussion with some fantastic picture’s at http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?65-New-Zealand-Historic-Muscle-Cars-Under-HRC

Historic Muscle Car Tee Shirts are available for $20 each plus postage, E-mail for size’s and colour.

OK, that’s all from me again this month, any questions and quirys don't hesitate to contact Myself, Tony or Steve, and remember if you are changing your car back to suit HMC/MSNZ T&C Rules or building a new racer you will NOT be racing with other non compliant cars, its a level playing feild for all. And I know I don't have to remind you, but remember, the "The Cars are the Stars" so that’s all from me for February 2012, feel free to contact me or anyone of the directors below.

To race and be apart of HMC you need to join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their $50 membership deal is a bargain, and a requirement to race.

HMC WEBSITE: http://www.historicmusclecars.co.nz/

PLEASE NOTE: If you wish to be removed from this E-mailout please let me know, if you wish to add someone please do the same.

Take care and enjoy your Historic Motor sport

Dale Mathers dmathers@xtra.co.nz , Tony Roberts tony@hamptondowns.com , Steve Holmes enquiries@monsterracewear.co.nz
HRC Members/HMC Directors

screwdriver

04-29-2012, 01:51 AM

Dale, you deserve to succeed as you are putting a lot of effort into it and that usually pays dividends as long as the basic concept is viable.

I can think of two classic series that failed abysmally, as one was driven by a totally misguided, totally self interested person, and the other was no more than a piggy-back series that only had 3 or 4 cars that weren't running elsewhere and wasn't really promoted by the convenor.

Your concept is viable, sustainable, has variety and you are doing a great job of promoting it. More power to you. With growing fields, great racing is bound to follow. Just chuck out the hoons (if any) as you'll gain everyone's respect. Trying to keep the numbers up sometimes means censuring or chucking out a potential crowd pleaser for the long term benefit of the series. It takes guts, but it has to be done as others have proved.

All four of the local 'non-conforming' series - Alfa, BMW, AES, Arrows have done just that over the years and they all work well together. That means that if Alfa or BMW chuck out a 'bad' driver, then the chances are that AES/Arrows won't accept them either! It is as much about drivers as cars and some people tend to forget that. It is the real strength of series such as yours and the others, that those administering them are aware, even if they are threatened by court action, which two of them have been. Just make sure your rules are robust enough and enforceable.

Kiwiboss

04-29-2012, 09:54 AM

Thanks Screwdriver, Deserving? possibly!! Succeeding, you bet yah. I can hear some of you now!! "how nigh-eve" and your probably rite but im sure as hell gonna give it a go. The fact is at my age(52) there is a whole group around that era into the classic saloon stuff which when you think about it, my age group where kids when the Big Banger Saloons roamed this country(late 60's/70's). Ten years and back there were only a few of the big banger type saloons my age group liked(Mustangs, Camaros, Monaro's, etc) and they weren't cheap, where as today myself and Steve have counted over 70 cars up and down the country that would fit HMC, some form of modification required. There is one person i take to heart, the late Jim Crystal, he had that inter-marque classic series from the 90's fine tuned(well, it seemed that way to me at 35 then), he didn't like V8's and i had to beg him to let me race my Mustang in his group(at Taupo) and the only reason he let me was the car was road legal(Raydon Smith still beat me), what i learnt is he was organised and ran a good show and a great group of guys, what myself Steve and Tony are doing is taking that formula along with the T&C rules and building this group around it which really only came about from the Festival meetings. What i didn't expect was that the enquiry would be over whelming hence a policy change as above was required as persons wanted to build all sorts of weird vehicles, one was a Datsun 240Z Sarab Chev V8 which was quite legal, then all the "what abouts" a Bolwell Nagara been one, let alone all the Euro stuff i'd never even heard of so we had to make the Eligibility list as the Aussie's had to do, i'd say we're pretty much covered from now on in with only fine tuning required

What has really amazed me is the major financial commitment several have made to race with HMC, changing and building cars for this group including one just recently purchased out of the USA, i have no intention of letting these guys down.

Dale M

conrod

04-29-2012, 10:42 AM

Hi Dale,

just out of curiosity really, why have you included the Mk1 and Mk2 Capri V6, which were under 3L? (2994cc) All other cars on your list are over 3000cc from the look of it. The Mk1 RS3100 (248 built) was as close as it doesn't matter to 3100cc (homologation special to allow it to run in the 3000-3500 Gp.2 class) but all other V6 Capris ever built were under 3000cc.

Conrad Timms

P.S. I just googled the "Chevrolet Firenza CanAm" - what a mental car!:eek:

Kiwiboss

04-29-2012, 11:10 AM

Conrad, although rite on the 3L cut off, and the fact they are generally know to most as "3 Litre Capri's" we have allowed them because of there common popularity here in NZ(and Australia), and the fact one can Perana-ise one to fit HMC anyway(MK1)(or over bore it past 3L). The owner/racers have the option to race in either under 3L or HMC should they wish when the class's are split, that's not a bad option.

We have a possible Chevrolet/Viva Firenza Can Am joining HMC in the future, we tossed and turned over this one but it met all the criteria just the same at the Perana V8 Capri did, the builder still has to use a Firenza fastback Viva body style, not a regular 2 door Viva as some have asked.

The same goes for XUI/GTR Toranas, although over just over 3L they are the type of Australian Muscle car kiwis identify with, we have allowed more freedoms to 6 cyl cars to close the gap on V8's, as i've mentioned in the past, its about leveling the playing field as was the case at the Festival of Motor Racing(BMW) this year with Angus in Gerald's Mini and Howard Wood's amazing wet win in his 2002, this is what we want and didn't the crowd luv it, entertainment at its best.

Dale M

conrod

04-29-2012, 07:22 PM

screwdriver

04-29-2012, 11:14 PM

I think that maybe you were too kind to Jimmy Chrystal as he effectively wiped out the BMC Series, by taking the organiser and initiator, to a tribunal, when a leading contender was loaned a car for the last round and all drivers agreed that it was OK. The loaned car was 100% legal and had been run by the owner earlier in the season.

As the driver won the series, Jim objected afterwards, as "it wasn't in the rules" even though he had agreed at the meeting that it was OK. That organiser then walked away from a series he had run for 10 years as he was apalled at the bad sportsmanship shown and the aggravation and stress of a tribunal. It is not what a hard working series organisers wants, needs or deserves.

Although Jim Barclay is adamant that racing is "all about the cars", in truth, racing classics is just as much about driver attitudes and behaviour, on and off the track.

Dave Silcock

04-29-2012, 11:37 PM

Hi Dale just got round to reading your eligibility list. What no Jaguars? Could of sworn I saw M Johns Mk2 in the photos posted of the HMC races at the BMW meeting at HD. Cheers Dave.

AMCO72

04-29-2012, 11:42 PM

Dale, your post @ 159 gave me a BIT of relief. It seems as though everyone, and not just you, is going to get tough on who and who can't race in these series. I am/was getting a bit nervous about the comments on here, fully expecting someone to start jumping up and down about the Amco Mini. In my defense, every performance part that is on the car was available in 1972, indeed most of what the car is today, is as it was in 1972, EXCEPT for the cubic capacity which has grown by 1/3 of a litre. Most of the bodywork and doors, bonnet, bootlid, subframes, suspension, glass, interior trim, wheels, head & carbs were the actual components used by Rod. The only component that I know that wasn't available back then was the 3.5 ratio straight cut diff, although there were plenty of other options...3.4, 3.6, 3.7. 3.9, 4.1 etc etc. Angus has always wanted to run it EXACTLY as is was in 1972, ie as a 999cc engine, but I have always said no, because as was shown in the Bruce McLaren Festival, Tony Mann with the Sidchrome Imp and Amco Mini trailed away at the rear of the field, and Tony has told me it is unlikely that he will bring the car north again as it is too slow..... we were about 100 hp down on the next group of cars. If and when there is an under 1000cc class then we may have another think, but competing with 3000cc, let alone over 3000cc cars is a bit of an ask, for me anyway.
Thank you for your measured and sensible replies to the queries.

conrod

04-29-2012, 11:47 PM

Although Jim Barclay is adamant that racing is "all about the cars", in truth, racing classics is just as much about driver attitudes and behaviour, on and off the track.

I was one of the original committee of 5 that set up the BMW Race Series 5 or 6 years ago. We made a decision early on to go hard on drivers that crash into others on a regular basis. Although several drivers were shown the error of their ways (usually supported with video evidence)and took their "punishment" on the chin, (usually a ban for a certain period of time) we had one driver who was going to take the series to court over it. When you are doing all of this hard work for no monetary gain, the last thing you want is the stress of going to court because some idiot with no idea how to race a car thinks he has the god given right to compete in your series just because he has paid his subs.
I am not involved in the BMW Series any more, but good to see the new committee are still very committed to enforcing a high standard of driver behaviour.

I must add though, the incidence rate has always been very low,considering we had around 100 active competitors at the time. It was usually only 1 or 2 that were causing the problems. I think it is quite important to establish a "culture" of racing early on in the formation of any class, so that everybody is clear on where you stand regarding sub standard driving behaviour. Be tough on them Dale, and good luck!

Conrad

AMCO72

04-29-2012, 11:50 PM

AMCO72

04-30-2012, 12:53 AM

Screwdriver, as Jim Chrystal is not here to defend himself, it is probably unfair for us to discuss what happened all those years ago. I competed against Jim on a number of occasions in the BMC series at Taupo, and he was always a tough rooster to beat.... he was definately out there to WIN, not come second......'the cars are the stars'!!! The Wolseley 1500 was a much modified car, and there was bugger-all Wolseley about the motor and transmission, but apparently all legal under the rules at the time. I had left the series before the incident you point out happened, but it is sad that Donn White after putting a lot of effort into creating what was a great series, got it all thrown back in his face. I am surprised at all this, as Jim was a committed Christian, as well as a man of the land....an asparagus farmer, so his actions seem at odds to what you would expect.

screwdriver

04-30-2012, 03:42 AM

To Conrod & Amco72. The 4 major North Island Series I have alluded to in previous posts do maintain a good control of driver behaviour and I agree conrod, that the standard of driving in all four, bearing mind the decent sized grids (that all cater for beginners), is a big thumbs up for drivers and the various committees/convenors.
AMCO. Jim walked away from the series a year later, clutching half the trophy, when it was announced that it was to be changed to two handicaps, muttering "it is now nothing more than a lottery". He wasn't impressed when the initial tally of 9 survivors were supplemented by other British Leyland products and those of more than 4 cylinders. Winning in classics is not everything, otherwise everyone would be spending big bucks and on the biggest engines and the smaller and medium engined cars would totally disappear and that would be sad.
The classes for the festival as it stands are too much of a performance mix and this has put off several drivers. Whilst an up to 1300cc class sounds great, in practice, laddo in your Mini travels faster than the 4.2 litre Jags and various 2 and 3 litre cars that are not highly modified, so although pre 1975 or 1985 or capacity classes look good on paper, in truth, it would probably be better split by performance to make better racing.

Fifty years ago at any UK club or national meeting, well over threequarters of all cars running would be under 1300cc. NZ has far more of a history of larger engined cars.

AMCO72

04-30-2012, 04:13 AM

Yup.....OR handicaps. From what I hear handicap racing is just far too difficult to organise, and of course it doesn't always work out as it should. I really don't care, Im just happy to go out, do a few skids, and have some fun. There is always someone to race round with. Look at the Bruce McLaren Festival pics of the Mini taken by 'Groundsky' and you see what I mean!!!!!!

Dave Silcock

04-30-2012, 04:16 AM

Dave, Im sure you are right. I had a dark blue MkII Jaguar in my mirror a couple of times, unless it was an optical delusion. Have you put up some miles on the Blue Car, or are you too busy trying to make a bob to take it out.

Have done 38 miles so far, have an oiling problem on front cylinder which is a pin hole in the valve spring seat leading to the inlet port. This is being rectified as we speak. The car is really amazing way better than I thought it would be. Still no contact from MSNZ!

Kiwiboss

04-30-2012, 09:43 AM

We've had to come up with the "Eligibility List" because since January's Festival I've/we've been bombarded with al-sorts of possible vehicles that do(did) qualify but are effectively NOT Muscle cars, and would have a performance advantage to ruin the class, so hence myself, Tony and Steve had to sit down and sort this out(as the Aussie's have done before us) and it wasn't easy. So the list it IS, and believe me i thought i knew of all the possible race cars over 3L and pre 12/77, but NO!! so if you have a car, or looking to build a car that's not on the list it must be pre- approved by us 3 directors first. Remember, the number one theme is "Muscle" and Jaguars are not Muscle cars, more saloon/Touring cars. Mike John kindly raced his Mk2 to help support our grid which i thank him! but his heart is in the smaller cars and raced his Viva at the second meeting. I just haven't got the typing skills to go into great detail on what's happening behind the scene, it is alot, and its also a considerable inve$tment for some so and i can assure you we are on the rite track, and we needed to sort this before anyone started building cars and then told they can't race, I've already pissed off one guy but better do it now than later on down the road when several have built cars.

You guys make me wish i hadn't mentioned Jim Crystal, but my view of him when i was younger is probably the same as i will get with HMC, i thought he was OK back then and sure we all have views about other person's and i can guarantee some have views about me and as HMC grows im sure i'll beable to start my own list, LOL!!

Gerald, your Mini is fantastic so keep it that way!! my interest is in controlling the over 3L HMC cars particularly the V8's as a performance advantage can be gained quite cheaply these days, so long as the U3L cars meet T&C that's all i need to know and as mentioned in post 159 i want to keep the gap close, but i also understand we don't want U3L cars are outside T&C. As for performance levels between the cars, well that's just how Classic racing is! one tends to build/race what they like reliving their youth, that's why i race a Mustang and for no other reason but i still respect every other persons car and opinion and as Gerald stated, you gotta be there for the FUN and no other reason. If i never won another race in my life it'll make no difference to me.

High driving standards is my number one drive and will bring the hammer down big time!! that's why we adopted "the cars are the stars" logo. This is Classic Racing so if ones objective is to win and win all the time it will be pointed out quite smartly that WE are probably not your group, there are plenty of other more serious race groups available.

Now remember you guys, this is all voluntary because we luv out choosen sport/hobby, im lucky im in a business position were i can push HMC during work hours but it still comes at a cost, Steve is doing the same with all the HMC articles, Tony's got enough on his plate as we all know but still has time to sort certain issue's and correct me when i stray, we won't always get it rite but we'll be bloody close and for the sake off "true" classic/ Historic racing we need this to work.

Lifes Good, just remember that.

Dale M

Grant Ellwood

05-01-2012, 11:51 PM

Thanks Dale, sounds like a good idea. Just helping someone build a Perana to race in your class (Graeme P)and although it won't have mega power it should be a fun car to drive. The irony is that it would probably be more expensive to build a 3L V6 race engine than it would a Ford V8.
I suppose Firenza's are not exactly thick on the ground, so finding a donor car would be the first stumbling block. And although they have a nice suspension system from memory (double wishbones front/5 link rear?) I don't think you could fit big rubber under the arches, so could be a bit of humour seeing a 600hp Viva racing on 13x7 tyres!:)

Conrad

Crikey, I suddenly realised that the Perana Capri could be a fast and competitive historic (valuable) racecar. I have a Mk1 Capri V6 laying around (waiting for restoration), wasn't sure what to do with it, but the HMC specs have got me more interested than the Anglia I'm shagging around with at the moment. I did some research on the net, looks like you can do a prod racing version based on the factory 1971 Team Gunston (South Africa) version with safer brakes and good rubber - GT 40 wheels, hope this fits in OK?
Grant Ellwood,Virginia,USA

Steve Holmes

05-02-2012, 12:26 AM

This one?

8168

Kiwiboss

05-02-2012, 02:34 AM

Crikey, I suddenly realised that the Perana Capri could be a fast and competitive historic (valuable) racecar. I have a Mk1 Capri V6 laying around (waiting for restoration), wasn't sure what to do with it, but the HMC specs have got me more interested than the Anglia I'm shagging around with at the moment. I did some research on the net, looks like you can do a prod racing version based on the factory 1971 Team Gunston (South Africa) version with safer brakes and good rubber - GT 40 wheels, hope this fits in OK?
Grant Ellwood,Virginia,USA

NO Grant, does fit the HMC criterior and we do have several Perana Capris coming but the body work has to be "Standard Series Production" as made by the manufacture with only "lite" fender flaring allowed, the picture Steve as as attached as above would NOT be legal under HMC rules.

Dale M

Steve Holmes

05-02-2012, 03:20 AM

8175

Kiwiboss

05-02-2012, 05:56 AM

8175

Below is the rule wording for outer body work: I have high lighted the wording for any fender flares:

3.2 Exterior: The vehicle shall be smartly maintained with all exterior trim in place. All Panels, Bumpers, Moldings, Spoilers, etc must be made of the original material, as per the “Standard” Series Production Vehicle. EG Steel Panels must be retained if originally fitted. Any part of the arch/wing pressing folded into the wheel arch may be deformed, but not removed, to give clearance to the tyres.

and although words can be read in many different ways it will be the 3 HMC directors that have the final say. The Lancaster Blue/White Capri Perana is fitted with a 15X8 wheel and has acceptable deformed fender clearance, the orange Gunston Capri does not, as anyone can tell material has been added to make the flare.

Hope this helps

Dale M

Kiwiboss

05-02-2012, 07:47 AM

This one?

8168

8175

Capri Fender Flares: Orange Capri NO. Blue/White Capri YES.

Grant Ellwood

05-02-2012, 10:57 AM

Thanks for the clarification Dale, the blue Capri spec makes more sense and a cheaper build too! Those knock-off GT40 wheels and hubs on the Gunston car would be an expensive mod. And a V8 would be a lot less costly than building the V6 eg a Roush crate motor here is relatively inexpensive, would only need the sump altered to clear the crossmember.
I'm assuming the full regs are online?
Cheers, Grant

Howard Wood

05-02-2012, 10:40 PM

AMCO72

05-02-2012, 11:10 PM

jim short

05-03-2012, 12:03 AM

As great as it all is I understand The Beach Hop has cut back on Mustangs just to many make for boring watching,I guess I am a little one eyed just a little but to say a jag is not a muscle car ,only an old saloon and I understand how it hurts when driving your muscle car real fast and this saloon goes past with a cherry wave,

Steve Holmes

05-03-2012, 12:59 AM

Howard, you are right. With all these 'PIRANHA's coming on stream, we will be swamped with them, almost like the E30's. I can see Dales HMC class being able to fill a full grid at the Festival in January, so us 'little' guys will be out in the cold. I think a few fellas out there have done their sums on this one, and decided the old Capri is the way to go in HMC. I would honestly not want to see dozens of them on the track together. That is one of the things that is so good about HMC......the variety of machinery. But isn't that orange car a ripper!!!! AND, if even our 'Great Helmsman', Chairman Holmes can get it wrong,[or was that just a carefully contrived piece of journalism to draw attention to the issue], what hope is there for others who don't read this forum to get all the ideas being knocked about here. What happens Dale, if 40+ cars are entered....dont laugh, it could happen if this momentum carries on. In other words, if people put their money where their mouth is, this is going to be the ALPHA, or should that be ALFA [oldfart] class of the racing at the Festival. Might just have to take up flag marshalling.

I was just posting that pic because Grant was talking about building a replica of the Team Gunston Perana that raced in SA. This car is a good example of a car thats a couple of steps too far for HMC, with those wheel flares. But I'm with you, I think its a great looking car, but it couldn't race in HMC like that.

I guess the way HMC has to be viewed is that every car in the field needs to have an achilles heel, be that its too heavy, too big, or too small, or has medieval suspension. Thats what makes a muscle car a muscle car. It goes like stink in a straight line, but everything else is a little questionable. Thats why the punters love them. In the case of the Perana, its achilles heel is that wide wheels can't be fit within the confines of the guards, so 8" is about the limit. So, while lighter and possibly more nimble, getting power to the ground will be the challenge. Same too with the Chevrolet Firenza Can-Am.

Howard Wood

05-03-2012, 01:20 AM

While I agree with everyone that a Perana would make a great HMC car I also think a Rover P6 V8 also fits the spirit of the class especially as it would also suffer from the same problem of limited tyre width (which Gerald, Angus and I need).

For what its worth, given their race history, a Mk2 Jag fits well too although there is no way you could get enough horse power to seriously bother Dale and his mates.

AMCO72

05-03-2012, 01:35 AM

I think I will reserve my judgement on the MkII Jaguar until I have seen, heard, and driven Dave's 'Blue Car' If Dave is saying it is way better than he had hoped, I believe him. He is not the sort of Guy to make idle boasts without backing them up with action, and 400+ hp is getting up there.
I have a solution to the tyre width inequality problem. Howard, you I, Angus and other cars that cant fit BIG rubber under their arches, should be able to run on slicks, which are still not very wide, but might grip a little bit better for a more level playing field. Yes????. I'm serious.......as the tyre thing seems to be one of the big issues in this class. Does Neil Tollich run a P6?....that thing can go.

jim short

05-03-2012, 02:25 AM

Another real top secret what about the 1976 ex Tullias E Type that swamped the Camaros thats on the water .roll on next yr.

Steve Holmes

05-03-2012, 02:50 AM

Steve Holmes

05-03-2012, 02:52 AM

Dale,

It is 1 year today since your first post regarding the HMC series (although obvviously a hell of a lot of work had gone on behind the scenes before then). Pretty amazing progress, interest and results in those 12 months, congratulations and thanks.

Now we need someone to take up the challenge for the under 3 litre class.........?

Wow, how about that! I hadn't realised that. Well spotted Howard.

Yeah I agree, it'd be great to see someone step up and take control of the U3 group. There is a lot of potential in that class.

Kiwiboss

05-03-2012, 06:40 AM

One year on for HMC, thanks for reminding me/us Howard, were did that year go? and weve only had 2 events, seems like we've been racing HMC the whole year, LOL

Look guys, a Jaguar is not out of the question(for HMC), if anyone wants to build one he/her needs to put a proposal to us 3 HMC directors, it would get utmost consideration! i wouldn't be so sure about Rovers though. The Eligability list is for vehicles that automaticly quailify, what we consider Muscle Cars, and covers quite a range, infact covers mostly all vehicles that are already in HMC or been built, it was the oddball vehicles we had issue's with, a 240Z Datsun Sarab chev V8, a Bolwell Nagari is just 2 and there are many others i have since found out, its easier to have a list and control it from there. Also you must understand that any Under 3L T&C cars don't have to apply to HMC rules, my concern is only controlling the over 3L HMC cars. If under 3L cars are allowed more freedoms than the HMC cars, thats fine by me, but would still want to see T&C apply, and Howard, Gerald, we still need to support each other, i hope both you(and others) will be with us at the Ice Breaker in September? Im already fielding enquiry about UL3 cars which im happy to steer in the rite direction until some can take it over.

I know my Mustang, and several other V8's have a upper performance advantage over you guys but as you know there's plenty of others that you two have an advantage over as well, and then if it rains? so to have our group mixed at Classic events is just fantastic for us the racer and the public, lets just keep it that way and see what the future holds. I still look at old Baypark pictures that shows the grids of V8's and small saloons, just like we had at the festival this year.

As for the perception of a grid full of Perana's/Mustangs and others, i wouldn't be so sure Jim/Gerald/Howard, as we know lots of interest but when it comes to fronting up? i've seen it all before. We are still aways from 40 car grids, infact my personal view is that we don't want anymore than 25 to 28 HMC vehicles, still enough to have great racing, anymore just turns into a nightmare, once again i look back to the grids of days gone by, we feilded far more cars at the Festival than back in the day.

I don't believe that next years Denny Hulme will be much different than what we had this year, a few new cars for sure, but it'll be the same old competitors with the couple of newbe's thrown in, moneys still tight for other interested competitiors to come onboard, were still atleast 3 years away from having HMC at a mantainable level. It has taken other groups longer than this.

Dale M

jim short

05-03-2012, 09:38 AM

Dale you have taken the fun out of the debate with all your comonsence,you know as a kid I used to poke the dogs next door with a stick

Dave Silcock

05-03-2012, 08:17 PM

Hi Dale, I admire what you are doing but it is not my thing and I will not be putting my car up for consideration. If it races at all it will be as I built it for T&C. I consider all saloons should be fully trimmed and not to be, is just one step away from the guys who turn left at night. My car is fortunately a road car as well,I would not at this stage, build a car that was'nt, I have been waiting four months for a log book and roll cage certification. If this crap goes on much longer I shall put in the tall gearing and head off to Mt Cook for the weekend. Even allowing for to odd speeding ticket it would be a lot cheaper.
Dave S

Howard Wood

05-03-2012, 10:34 PM

[Also you must understand that any Under 3L T&C cars don't have to apply to HMC rules, my concern is only controlling the over 3L HMC cars. If under 3L cars are allowed more freedoms than the HMC cars, thats fine by me, but would still want to see T&C apply, and Howard, Gerald, we still need to support each other, i hope both you(and others) will be with us at the Ice Breaker in September? Im already fielding enquiry about UL3 cars which im happy to steer in the rite direction until some can take it over.

I know my Mustang, and several other V8's have a upper performance advantage over you guys but as you know there's plenty of others that you two have an advantage over as well, and then if it rains? so to have our group mixed at Classic events is just fantastic for us the racer and the public, lets just keep it that way and see what the future holds. I still look at old Baypark pictures that shows the grids of V8's and small saloons, just like we had at the festival this year.

As for the perception of a grid full of Perana's/Mustangs and others, i wouldn't be so sure Jim/Gerald/Howard, as we know lots of interest but when it comes to fronting up? i've seen it all before. We are still aways from 40 car grids, infact my personal view is that we don't want anymore than 25 to 28 HMC vehicles, still enough to have great racing, anymore just turns into a nightmare, once again i look back to the grids of days gone by, we feilded far more cars at the Festival than back in the day.

I don't believe that next years Denny Hulme will be much different than what we had this year, a few new cars for sure, but it'll be the same old competitors with the couple of newbe's thrown in, moneys still tight for other interested competitiors to come onboard, were still atleast 3 years away from having HMC at a mantainable level. It has taken other groups longer than this.

Dale M[/QUOTE]

Don't worry Dale, I'll be there with bells on, can't wait.

The grid numbers back in the day is something we all see through rose tinted glasses, especially compared with the historic stuff today but also the NZ V8's. Ironically its the classes like Formula Ford which in the early '70s had so many entries that qualifying was required at the big meetings that today stuggle with entries.

Dave S, not sure about T & C but a Sched K car like mine has to be fully trimmed.

Dave Silcock

05-03-2012, 11:35 PM

Howard , Just checked only the carpet from the drivers footwell may be removed.
Dave S.

Kiwiboss

05-17-2012, 01:24 AM

Mike Rorison's 67 Trans Am Mustang back on 15" wheels and now fitted with a 4 Speed Jerico!! already for a HMC work out. Mike wont be at the Ice Breaker but deffinately Denny Hulme in Jan 2013

Dave Silcock

05-17-2012, 08:47 PM

Really cool car, good to see some carpet and a matching set of gauges. The one I drove had Stewart Warner dials, still available from XKs Unlimited in California

Rod Grimwood

05-19-2012, 02:59 AM

Nice, period type wheels make it also.

Kiwiboss

05-20-2012, 03:03 AM

Rod, Dave, yes!! this is the NEW face of New Zealand Historic/Classic Saloon racing under HMC and Mikes Mustang is surely what we want, and more is coming!!! for anyone else viewing these pictures and visiting this forum and wanting more info about HMC and regulations, feel free to contact me.

I currently have a competitors 67 Camaro in my W/shop been converted back to HMC reg's, 15" wheels, etc and will look similar to the above Mustang, just like days gone by!!!

PS: the interest from the South Island has been fantastic.

Dale M

Rod Grimwood

05-20-2012, 08:16 AM

Dale, don't let Cedric know you have a Camaro in your workshop, plead innocent to everything.

Rod Grimwood

05-20-2012, 08:39 AM

Dale, Think you would have seen this little sign on a couple of cars years back. Still got one on front quarter light window of Escort been there for about 25 years. It was also on rear wing but bigger. Found a couple in drawers while searching for old log book. Kennard had these put on some t/shirts of his car that he gave the boys after they did overnighter on his car from Bay Park shunt.

screwdriver

05-20-2012, 09:17 AM

I am surprised that those with smaller cars (ie non-muscle) haven't mentioned that the AES and Arrow Wheels series copes perfectly well with Jaguars and even "Peranas" with flares, as long as they run on road tyres and are internally trimmed.
The AES and Arrow's handicapping may not be perfect (when is it, when so many factors can upset the results, such as the occasional yellow flag?) but it they have a long enough history to have an established structure and bags of variety.
The fact that as established series, they don't get invited to partake in the festivals is up to the festival organisers, but at least AMCO72 would be in the correct class!
Maybe the convenor's reluctance to totally embrace the current T & C rules in their entirety, as they are seen to be flawed, might have something to do with it?

Howard - a max grid of 28 is not on. Look at the economics of running a meeting and then you'll understand why. As a spectator, promoter or flaggie, or even driver, there is nothing worse than small grids.

Kiwiboss

05-20-2012, 10:23 AM

Kiwiboss

05-28-2012, 08:45 AM

:)Last weekend was the Annual Motorsport NZ AGM and workshops in Auckland, I was asked to attend as an observer by HRC, this was my first Motorsport AGM conference which I found very interesting. Off course Tier 1 was what interested most and the expense that goes with this group, but not why I was there or what interested me though in some way it affects us all, it appeared to me to be a big game of chess!! Friday morning was for Workshop discussion’s amongst all groups, I was invited to sit in on the Historic and Classic commission workshop and it was great to meet the H&C delegates and talk amongst them and issues at hand, and of course Historic Muscle Cars was a topic of interest and discussion which I left truly believing these guys are behind HMC, I have been asked to attend further Classic and Historic workshops which I’m glad to be involved in and can only firm up the position of HMC. Meeting the South Island delegates, classic clubs and event organisers was also fantastic and made me believe that HMC has made inroads into “their” way for thinking for future South Island classic meetings and as I told them, the interest from down south has been amazing, so great discussion all-round. I also enjoyed talking with Julian Leitch about technical issues involving the older classic cars and having great discussion with Jim Barclay about next year’s Denny Hulme and future events. So for a first timer I came away positive though like anything Motorsport, it takes time. For anyone contemplating racing in Historic Muscle Cars, buying, building and converting and existing vehicle I can assure you we are here to stay, but remember WE are only about Historic/Classic racing.:cool:

:eek:Prior to the AGM I’ve had a couple of minor misunderstandings when talking with interested parties about racing in HMC. I've had to frequently point out that HMC is NOT a race series, most likely won’t be on TV, doesn't have points or series rounds, but just like Historic racing overseas its about, well, just that "Historic Racing". More importantly it’s about racing in a gentlemanly manor where the cars are raced to, and presented in a high standard with the appearance of days gone by, to a set of rules that applies to everyone. Of course i understand that this is not for everyone but don't think for one minute its about having a gentle Sunday drive around a race track, this is still a motor racing class, just operated in a manner were we all respect each other’s pride and joy. When I say respect, I mean just that, with nothing to win, why bother making that last second suicide pass. So with this in mind! and with what we are pushing for at HMC, if that’s you and your car complies, well we want you then! But we are in no way obligating you to race with and at HMC only events, we are only offering you a compliant Historic race group at Historic/Classic meetings, there are many other class’s and classic meetings all around the country so race were you see fit, even if your vehicle is HMC compliant and you don’t want to race at HRC/HMC events, well that’s OK by us too.:)

:cool:But in the meantime the heat is on!!! Car owners/racers are popping up everywhere. Without a doubt the biggest amount of interest in the last month has been from the South Island, coming via Steve Holmes Classic Car articles. Quite amazing and in true mainland style they want to do it right and make their cars HMC legal. Obviously our fellow HMC mainlanders can't be at every HMC event but some are already planning to be at Denny Hulme next January, good on you guys and we welcome you.:cool:

Peter Stevenson of Mt Maunganui has purchased this 65 B Production Mustang Fastback race car out of America. This vehicle has been a raced for 30 years in the USA and because of the American Vintage Class rules this Mustang pretty much meets HMC spec, only requiring door window glass and a few other minor details to comply. It's already fitted with an all cast iron 310CI engine making 475HP, 15" wheels and tyres, correct body panels and interior trim. When I last spoke with Pete it had just been shipped and he hopes to be September’s Ice Breaker event, great stuff.

You would have viewed our "Eligibility List" from last month, which wont effecting most prospective car builders/racers and existing vehicles, and it has worked already, as we've been approached by one person wishing to build a Valiant VJ Hardtop Coupe for HMC, currently not on the list. However, with the approval of the 3 HMC Directors we have given this person the go ahead, easy as that!! So if it’s not on the list, contact us as you never know. Of course we still want it to be some sort of recognised Muscle Car which isn't hard to establish these days.

We’ve tossed and turned over this issue, but below is the new Front spoiler rules, this has come about from our Australian competitors as the feed back on their cars with a period style front spoiler fitted was positive, so we have taken this onboard for HMC. We struggled with wording on this one but strangely enough we’ve ended up using most of the written word from the 1970 American SCCA Trans Am rule book, below is almost word for word(with a few additions)to suit today’s racing in HMC:

A front spoiler may be mounted on any HMC vehicle regardless of whether or not a front spoiler is recognised as standard or optional for that model, providing such spoiler meets the following requirements. It must be mounted to the front underside body panel, below and to the rear of front bumper location, in a manner which does not change the original frontal appearance. The maximum front spoiler width shall be limited to the car’s front wheel track width centre line (the front track dimension). The vertical dimension from the lowest point on the spoiler may not exceed four inches. Openings may be made in the spoiler for the purpose of ducting air to the front brakes. If a front spoiler is added as above, any standard or optional front spoiler must be removed or modified to conform with the above limitation’s. All spoilers must be a single flat plane and made from Aluminium, Plastic or Fibreglass only and are subject to approval by the HMC Technical Inspector/Directors

With that been said, and although the above rule will now allow me to fit a "Trans Am" type front spoiler to my Mustang, you will find I’ll be doing no such thing, i love it just the way it is. Regardless of what front spoiler I use it will not make one "iota" difference in how the Mustang handles or goes. To those that do so use the regulations as above, I’m sure it will look good and it’s the “looks” we are after.

There will be NO June HMC E-mailout, expect to receive the next one in July.

Below is next summer’s race dates: Please note, Possibility of a one day TACCOC event Sunday Nov 4th at Hampton, more to come.

1 - Ice Breaker, 29/30th September 2012 at Hampton Downs
2 - Denny Hulme Festival, 18/20th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
3 - Denny Hulme Festival, 25/27th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
4 - Legends of Speed, 23/4th March 2013 at Hampton Downs

The Ice Breaker is first up this year so aim for this one, you have 4 months!! through the winter I'll keep you all reminded. Once again we are not about having large fields, we only want HMC and T&C legal cars and if we only have 6 or so cars, so be it. We will be racing with the under 3L Historic Saloons as well, most of us will be ready to dust of our cars(and ourselves) off by the time this event rolls around.

Also check out the current Classic Car Magazine for Steve Holmes monthly article and ramble about HMC's goings on, we also have further articles in NZV8 and Greg Sstokes has kindly added our race dates to NZ Hot Rod Magazine. Also in today’s high tech world it is a must to keep up with the play on the http://www.theroaringseason.com/forumdisplay.php?2-General-Discussion with some fantastic picture’s at http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?65-New-Zealand-Historic-Muscle-Cars-Under-HRC

Historic Muscle Car Tee Shirts are available for $20 each plus postage, E-mail me for size’s and colour.

That’s it from me again this month, any questions and queries don't hesitate to contact Myself, Tony or Steve. Remember if you are changing your car to suit HMC/MSNZ T&C Rules or building a new racer you will NOT be racing with other non compliant cars, its a level playing field for all. Lets keep the "Classic and Historic" in Classic and Historic racing. And I know I don't need to remind you but remember, "The Cars are the Stars" so that’s all from me for May 12, feel free to contact me or anyone of the directors below.

To race and be apart of HMC you need to join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their $50 membership deal is a bargain, and a requirement to race.

HMC WEBSITE: http://www.historicmusclecars.co.nz/

PLEASE NOTE: If you wish to be removed from this E-mailout please let me know, if you wish to add someone please do the same.

Take care and enjoy your Historic Motor sport

Dale Mathers dmathers@xtra.co.nz , Tony Roberts tony@hamptondowns.com , Steve Holmes enquiries@monsterracewear.co.nz
HRC Members/HMC Directors

kiwi285

05-29-2012, 01:42 AM

This class is really making great strides and I am sure will be a great showcase for historic racing in NZ. I personally would like to see the U3 litre cars continue to race with the V8. Back in the day and even at the BMW Festival it was the sight of the smaller cars playing dragon slayers that got the crowd on their feet. There is nothing like a smaller car mixing it up with cars that it normally shouldn't be able to race with, that creates interest for the spectators.

Roll on September for the first race and ongoing news of cars being comtemplated by people in the country.

jim short

05-29-2012, 03:21 AM

You hit the nail dead centre,I will never understand how this latest follow the leader racing please anyone except the car in front,,But they are so much faster you say,,Rubish I remember at Bay Park when the Colonge Capri came screaming down the back straight{in those days most folk sat on the back straight }the noise as they flew towards us was scarey hell I had never seen cars so quickthere lap times a 1. 3or close it some yrs ago no doubt David will have a record ,The point I am trying to make that 20 odd yrs later my first yr.in Sports Sedans I was doing 1.3 after 5yrs my best was 1.03 and if I had the money for 4 new tyres all at once and a fresh motor ,may have broken the magic minute.I still navent got the point out never did it feel fast!! so if these latest cars are 10..20..or even 40mph faster it doesent make a beter race and I will bet 2 bob the only time they are close is out braking each other remember when Draky couldnt beat Baird he would run into him,, Hell I have some vidio of Jim Clark crossing the line at Puke sidways through the fence and hedge with at least two minis pushing him and there top speed was what 120??? That is racing!!

Kiwiboss

05-29-2012, 04:25 AM

At this stage, and for September's Ice breaker the U3L Saloons will be in with HMC cars, the plan is to do the same for Denny Hulme next Jan. At BMW offcourse there were a few small saloons that dealt to a couple of the bigger V8's and that folks, is what the crowd wants to see, just like to the ol days and this is why we classic race isn't? otherwise why do we do it? sure is fun. By reversing the top 10 keeps the excitement but also minimizes any possible damage, thats why we don't do a complete reverse grid. And then if it rains those U3L cars come into there own!! somewhere along the way the field gets leveled out, all just great damn FUN.

Dale M

Parnelli

05-29-2012, 10:13 PM

Hi Dale, As far as the format for HMC races goes , inclusion of the U3L class cars is fantastic for the public to see and a true reflection of the races in the 60’s. I would like to suggest that if we want to put on an even better show for our fans them we should look at introduction some complete reverse grid races and some full handicap races – slowest off the front. Now I’ve heard the arguments that this will only lead to crashes presumably brought about by the fast cars ( or should that be drivers ) not tolerating being held up by slower cars but, if the cars really are the stars then these drivers will have to accept that they don’t have to win every race! This scenario has been run by the PMC’s for more than a decade with very little damage resulting. Everyone will be able to observe this at this weekends Supertourer meeting which I believe is being supported by PMC. This same philosophy should in my opinion be adopted by the likes of Supertourers as well , because no-one wants to see the same cars at the front of every race. What do you all think ?

Kiwiboss

05-29-2012, 10:43 PM

Absolutely Dave, im happy to look at any senareo that makes HMC/Classic Saloon racing look good and interesting, and as you stated if the "Cars are REALLY the Stars" them the faster car/drivers should show caution passing slower vehicles. Its about driver education i guess and as we have further HMC events were better driver edicate is shown we will look at this!! It is very difficult in Classic racing as there are so many variances/speed differences in the vehicles, but its nice to see everyone have there day on the podium!! and with all the inquiry's i've been feilding 50% has been about sorting out that persons "mindset" and although i'll get no thanks for it, im actually sorting out the other old car racing groups as well by tell some persons that if you have a "want to win at all cost" MO, HMC is not your group!!

All this is growning pains for HMC but we'll get there. Lets see where we go from here

Dale M

AMCO72

05-30-2012, 01:47 AM

Dale, Dave, everybody......get off the grass!! Motoracing is about winning. Always has been, always will be. I dont care what you say to competitors out there, they are out to get to the front, because that is where they THINK they should be. The 'mindset' that you talk about is just that, a 'mindSET' and it wont change, and no amount of lecturing by the 'Great Helmsman' is going to make the blindest bit of difference. If it wasn't about racing, few of these drivers would be there, and I challenge anyone to say otherwise.
My car is a case in point. One meeting it is driven by a professional race-car driver, the next by a doddery old Grandpa, and the driving styles, and lap times reflect that. Having said all that, Parnells suggestion of reverse grids and handicaps is a great idea which I think should be implemented vigorously, especially handicaps, as I'm not so keen on reverse grids. However, EVERYONE I talk to says it is TOO hard and too much trouble, and yet the best racing of any sort I have ever seen, have been handicaps. Actually I think there is LESS potential damage is this type of racing, as it is usually the first lap when all the trouble happens, bunched up fields, dodgy overtaking etc, but with a handicap the field is spread out and passing manoevers usually take place in slightly less risky situations.
Now Dale you are a racer, pure and simple, you are out there to drive that bloody Mustang as hard as it will go, and if you can sneak past a slightly slower competitor you will......I have seen you do it. But as you are often, not to say usually, in front of the pack you are often calling the tune. Dennis Marwood has famously said that he cant see the point of handicap races. Well that is OK for him because he was usually out the front, but there are a number of drivers behind him who make up the bulk of the field, and without them there would be no field!!! And you cant rely on inclement weather to even up the fields either.
I fully support any move towards handicap racing in our classes, because as the laps wind down you get to see some pretty special car RACING going on. Yes the cars are the stars, but without the drivers the cars would be show pieces only.
SCH Davis has said......'Racing is a wonderful game. Drivers experience that strangely fascinating mixture of good fortune and disaster, of difficulties and sudden unexpected luck, which makes the whole thing what it is'.

AMCO72

05-30-2012, 03:12 AM

Howard Wood

05-30-2012, 04:44 AM

Gerald, I'm not going to argue with you either way about the mentality or mindset of drivers, far too much of a mine field!

The issue with HMC and U3L regarding reverse grids or handicap is more about sector speed differentials. For example, the smaller cars might be quicker through the infield at Hampton but will always get blown off up the hill to the start finish line. That is part of the fun for both drivers and spectators. With a reverse grid or handicap race making a pass on a slower car stick becomes bloody hard because if the next car in the queue holds the smaller car up through the infield, come the next straight, the big car (and half a dozen of his mates) will blow by again. Making any real progress through the field will be pretty hard in a smaller car without resorting to some desperate moves.

I reckon the format we have now is pretty much spot on, after all it is Dale's parade! The BMW open class has full handicap races and believe me the speed differential throws up some pretty ugly situations. So much so that the class is being split into an under and over 2 litre grids for next year.

Dave Silcock

05-30-2012, 04:50 AM

By the way......reverse grids only work where cars are all of SIMILAR performance. In HMC we have a lap time difference between the fastest and slowest of about 10 seconds. A reverse grid race in HMC would result in the fast boys catching and overtaking the slower ones by the end of the first lap, and then it's cheery-oh, see you later! So is not much point. Yes I know that SOME drivers will contrive to get a good spot in a handicap, but they soon get caught out and put in their place....literally.
I could not agree more Foggy, even if you are the fastest what is the point of driving around at the front all day. When I raced my Cooper Vincent in Historics it was quite often the fastest car, if it did hot break, and winning the scratch race and then starting off the back of the grid in subsequent races told every one you were the man. And then what fun seeing how many you can pass before the end. What I could never understand was the driver so keen to win he goes real slow in the scratch race so he can win on handicap. I mean what a wanker? By the way Crunch is being most helpfull re roll cage on the Blue car, will keep you all posted

AMCO72

05-30-2012, 05:02 AM

Howard, I'm not going to argue with you either, because you are VASTLY more experienced than I am. I can see your point about speed at different parts of the circuit though, and you say that without resorting to some 'desperate' moves in the smaller capacity cars, progress is going to be difficult. So I guess we, the smaller cars are always going to be following the bigger capacity cars. Now even you will say that it is nice to win once in a while, as you did brilliantly in a wet race at the last Festival, so unless there is some rain, and who in their right mind would want that, the finishing order is pretty much a forgone conclusion.
I know this is not only about winning, but drivers who go out and race, and say they dont care about winning, are being ever so slightly untruthfull......I think!
Interesting about the BMW class. I think they were going to have to be split up anyway with the numbers turning up.
As you say, It's Dales parade, and we don't want it to 'Rain on his Parade'.

Kiwiboss

05-30-2012, 05:31 AM

Listen here guys,(and Gerald) historic and Classic racing is NOT about winning otherwise why would you choose the car you have? the top 10 reverse was a safer format option for our "classic racing" group and probably what we will do again next year. I have bad feelings about full reverse grids at classic events when we have a huge speed difference and vehicle size, now remember! im only talking about classic/Historic racing, not any other racing class, not interested in what they do!! for HMC i want safety and common sense courtesy on the track, if i don't get it i will growl(probably won't do any good) .

Gerald, all i can say is "Bullshit" not everyone in our group finds it the utmost importantance to WIN, certainly the ones i talk to are in it for the enjoyment(i know you are too) as i am and to me its the ONLY importanceNow Dale you are a racer, pure and simple, you are out there to drive that bloody Mustang as hard as it will go, and if you can sneak past a slightly slower competitor you will......I have seen you do it. But as you are often, not to say usually, in front of the pack you are often calling the tune. so that is true but not at the cost of damaging another competitors vehicle, the person, or anyone else. I know this because in other groups i've raced with over the years i've actually slow'd and pull over slightly when i have an overkeen racer on my bumper, it aint worth the damage so i let them go, and so i get beat, never bothered me or anyone else!! what i do like is winning the race in the pits, LOL. And Dave, so correct! what fun is a grid start and disappearing into the sunset, thats wanker material in classic racing. When i raced with the Custaxie and the Ferrari at McLaren i was faster but came 3rd and made a race of it, you should have seen the look on robbies and the publics face after that race, that was more of a thrill to me than clearing out.

Also, if one really finds it nessary to win were the playing feild is unlevel they on drugs!! i have seen a few so called "hot shots'" jump out of minor race class's were they had superior equipment over everyone else, into a Teir 1 group where the equipment is level and find themselves last!! i always get a chuckle with that.

Howard, this IS NOT Dales parade, we are all in this together if we want to make it work, im only the "spark plug" at the moment and i expect help from you all, there will come a day i will want to back away, and still see HMC/classic racing with sensable rules keep growing.

Of to America tomorrow but i'll be keeping an eye on you guys from over there.

Dale M

jim short

05-30-2012, 05:59 AM

COME on ,we are talking old cars not slow cars...The old way was the best way like a lot of things the world is changing,mainly for the worst.. A grid start then a handicap worked well depending on the handicapper the one thing Eric ?was good at ,,So the fast car starts a lap behind so what.I found in a grid start you didnt really pass anyone, but the handicap was great got a chance to show some, how good I was ,Huxford said on tv he didnt like handicaps but in the grid starts he was lapping the slower half,, after two thirds through the race ,, so were is the difference The modern stuff the Sports and GTs the crowd and I mean the crowd at Manfeild and Taupo loved the handicap ,,I may be a bit one eyed there but I have never seen a car like that v8 Juno that was not running properly start in the pit lane and give that 850bhp Camaro almost half a lap start and a beating first time this year the future in spite of a lot of negetivity is looking good on all fronts

jim short

05-30-2012, 06:26 AM

Yes Amco got to agree with Dale {partly} reminds me of the rich chap had the v8 Aston at a taccoc puke,Mires or close ,anyhow I passed him down the front straight{only time a photographer was ther e ,},have e great shot if Russ would like a copy anyhow next meeting and back then taccoc had a meeting every 3months?/ I had a repeat win .he was so pi..ed of as he had gone from injectors to webbers or the other way to improve his pace {the problem he was slow over Rothmans } now in 1964 Bob Jane said after he set the fastest lap in his Jag he could go from the hairpin to Railway with out lifting off,.It took me some time before I managed that I understand the Aston was swapped for a helecopter,I also found Champion very scarey to go around with out lifting off , but I told myself I saw Leanard and Richards go round side by side !!!Dave will fight me again on this one but I am older and dont car e

AMCO72

05-30-2012, 06:58 AM

Well, thats got good old roaringseason going again. Was getting a bit dead. Bring it on. Bullshit and all!!!!!

woody

05-30-2012, 07:23 AM

Angus got a good plug on TV3 news tonight.

screwdriver

05-30-2012, 07:52 AM

At the risk of repetition, the AES & Arrow Wheels series points races are all handicaps and they don't have the speed differential problems, as the groups are split, not by capacity, but by (proven) lap times.
The handicapper retains all past history and that means that sand-bagging generally isn't possible.
Engine capacity means diddly-squat, as those who raced at the Whangarei street races will confirm. The fastest car there was Murray Sinclair's 1600cc Lotus Elan.
AMCO's times in the Mini are not the same as the times set by Angus and that is fine, as neither is then advantaged or disadvantaged.
We know there are well driven, well modified 1300cc MG Midgets that are faster than more standard or less well driven MGB V8s and MGBs.
Splitting any classic group just by capacity, disadvantages and discourages drivers of more standard cars, regardless of engine capacity.
The 3 litre limit class is generally somewhat pointless when you look at the range of lap times as the speed differential is massive.
HMC is aiming specifically at (large) Muscle Cars - which is great, as the sheer size of larger cars tends to put off the drivers of smaller, faster cars if on the same grid, on the grounds of safety.
The under 3 litre class is trying to mix highly modified almost race cars with fairly standard road cars and meanwhile, a Jaguar Mk2 or XJ6 is totally out in the cold. Sorry, but we have to look at ALL classic cars and see where they fit as none should be isolated.
Handicap racing is always going to be a lottery but at least the fastest and the slowest guys get to see other cars, which isn't always the case in scratch races.
Unfortunbately, you only need one yellow flag at the Pukekohe hairpin for example, to totally upset the finishing order, but who cares? Study the results of past handicap races and you'll see anything from blanket finishes by a whole swag of cars to runaway wins and for every one, there is a good reason.
We all have to accept that the sheer variety of cars, ages, capacities and driver ability, are what Classics are all about, so any talk of a level playing field is total BS. You can't have a level playing field, with 7 litres vs 1000cc, but that doesn't mean you can't have great racing, as winning is indeed irrelevent and we need to support the regular supporters of each grid.

conrod

05-30-2012, 07:53 AM

Angus got a good plug on TV3 news tonight.

good to see that, thats the class he should be racing in, I hope it goes well for him this weekend:)

Meanwhile, if anyone has a lazy $100K then this has got to be a bargain price for a beautiful Boss 302, ready to race in HMC:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/ford/auction-479975245.htm

Oldfart

05-30-2012, 08:04 AM

Screwdriver, if you talk to some of the competitors in AES/Arrow you will find a level of dissatisfaction over the handicaps. A number of instances where a known faster car is placed anything up to 6 positions ahead. I know that it always difficult, however it is pretty obvious that the results from the scratch race should indicate the reversed grid for the points scoring handicaps, and this has not been the case very often. I have seen situations where cars which have finished midfield are started on handicap at what is almost the back of the field.
Perhaps a bit too much reliance on lap times. It was suggested to me that a better method would be to use the race time or at least a number of laps, that way the slow starting, but eventually quicker cars are evened out. That is possibly what will be trialled at VCC events.

pallmall

05-30-2012, 09:24 AM

I can see this thread getting away from its original intent, to promote and provide news on the HMC.

The valid discussion on the running of historic events should perhaps be taken to a new thread?

Oldfart

05-30-2012, 07:36 PM

I can see this thread getting away from its original intent, to promote and provide news on the HMC.

The valid discussion on the running of historic events should perhaps be taken to a new thread?

Yep

Kiwiboss

05-30-2012, 08:55 PM

Yes Pallmall, little of topic, but a good discussion anyway. As a final word, how about each one of us look at all Classic/Historic racing for the betterment of the sport rather than whats in it for ME, ME, ME, surely you guys can understand that? nothing is perfect and god bless us classic racing isn't!! NO event will ever be run exactly how each one of us wants it, there will always some amount of unfairness but lets just enjoy what we have and get on with it, all im trying to do with MY imput and HMC is make it a little better and fairer. I look at the effort Jim Barclay, Tony, Chris put into the festival and go WOW, they need our help not our criticism. Yes, we can go on and on about this that and the other(including myself) but i just ask you to stop and think for a minute and look for the positive, and how about a hand as well!! I still believe we got it pretty good down here in NZ:)

Over and Out. Dale M

Howard Wood

05-30-2012, 10:53 PM

Stroppy and competetive buggers aren't you?

The beauty of running an historic type car is precisely that you can be as competetive as you choose (and within reason spend as much or as little as you choose) and still have fun. This applies not only during a race but also in your choice of race. There are so many different classes and meetings that a T & C or Sched K compliant car is eligible for. If chasing trophies is your thing, find a series that you can win in!

The combined HMC and U3L class is as Dale says, not a series or championship and only runs at the larger "festival" type events where putting on a good show and being part of the whole scene is probably the biggest part of it. I for one am happy to spend all race being a pain to the larger cars knowing full well that come the climb up to the start/ finish I will be swamped again. Doesn't mean that I am not going to stop developing the car or trying as hard as poss.

I will also run in the BMW under 2 litre class where the car is a front runner and they hand out trophies like confetti, different deal and focus, lots of fun too just different. Surely there is room for both?

AMCO72

05-30-2012, 11:48 PM

I am replying on this thread because it has to do with HMC, and ONLY HMC. Nowhere did I say that this class was unfair, or that drivers were intent on winning ' at all cost'. ALL I said was that drivers in HMC go out to RACE, HARD, and get to the chequered flag ahead, if possible, of the guy in front. Howard has said that although he knows he is going to get caught on the main straight by the Muscle Cars, that is not going to stop him..developing his car and DRIVING AS HARD AS POSSIBLE!! We are out there to RACE. We are not playing tiddly-winks. There is nothing in what I have said that is about ME, ME, ME!!! All the cars out there are producing a lot more HP than they did originally, if they didn't they would be trailing around at the rear of the field, and believe me I've done a bit of that. It's not my preferred place on the track, so I do a bit more tinkering so I can move up the grid a few places. Of course the guys in front of me are doing the same thing, so you just start chasing your tail and call a halt.
I am not interested in winning trophys. I am interested in going out and pitting myself with like minded enthusiasts, but for people to say that we are not interested in winning, if a bit of luck comes our way, well we are in the wrong game. Some times, at my age, I am fortunate to finish the damn race in one piece, let alone cross the finish line first, and I suspect that SOME of the correspondents on here are not actually out there doing the business......yes, they may have once upon a time, but I suggest to them that if they actually competed in this HMC class they would find the racing fast and furious, and every bit as tough as the OLD days, without hopefully the panel damage.
Right, have I made myself clear this time? I will go along with anything that our 'Great Helmsman' suggests, and continue to compete while MSNZ issues me with a licence, and I can scratch up a few bob from the pension fund. 'Stroppy and competitive' Howard.....I dont think so.
And Dale, have a good break in the USA. Maybe you will come back with some more ideas. Thats great. Meantime we will try to behave ourselves in your absence!!!!

kiwi285

05-31-2012, 12:40 AM

From a spectators point of view I want to see the historic cars being raced the way they should. It dosen't worry me who wins so long as there is no damage done to the cars and the drivers have enjoyed themselves.

Back in the days, the results were as much a product of the driver abilities as much cars potential and a lot of those drivers and their mechanics are no longer competing or involved. Some of those driver were such charismatic characters with amazing abilities.

Just great to see the cars being used again and to hear them operating at racing speeds - however fast that is.

Kiwiboss

06-18-2012, 08:52 PM

I have been advised by chris Watson(HRC) that the September Ice Breaker meeting is NOW on the 15th and 16th of September.

Prep those HMC and U3L Saloons

Dale M

Steve Holmes

07-11-2012, 12:29 AM

Dales latest HMC Newsletter:

Greetings HMC Racers and Fans

I had a great saying put to me recently, HMC is about “Wine and Cheese Racing” I had never thought of it like that but I had to agree, yes he was correct, HMC “is” about “Wine and Cheese Racing” because really, we’re only about hooning around the race track in our old dinosaur race cars at Historic and Classic meetings, sure we'll will push the limits and drive like Parnelli, Fahey, Moffat, Marwood did back in the golden days, all in the cause of having fun, so yes I happen to agree, we are the new “Wine and Cheese” Historic Saloon class at Classic meetings, if you think the same? well come on over!! it did put a smile on my face (:

I have just recently returned from the US and Australia, in the US I was at the Somona Historic’s at Sears Point in the Wine Country, San Francisco were the Historic Trans Am group had their first event of the season, I spoke at length to their drivers about racing with HMC down under next summer, I have a few interested parties so will see what comes of this. The next weekend it was across to Watkins Glen for the joint SVRA(Sports Vintage Racing Ass)/Shelby Nationals where I made contact with other proposed historic racers, and last weekend it was the Queensland Raceway for the Shannon’s 2 days of Thunder event, very well run and nice warm weather(or cold if you’re an Aussie) our mates in the Australian Trans Am group had one of their rounds with18 cars entered, they are doing well with their group and have made steady progress and have more vehicles in the pipe line. They also made myself and the other Kiwi’s there very welcome and it was great to catch up with those that raced at the BMW festival in January, so thanks guys.(See pictures added)

I have been asked about Vehicle Compliance and Scrutinizing, all vehicles/owners wishing to race at HMC events must have a pre-inspection for rule eligibility/compliance, please don’t expect to enter and turn up thinking that should any issues arise, you will be allowed to race and remedied the issues at a later date, this won’t happen as NON legal vehicles cannot race. If you’re considering acceptance please contact any of the 3 directors for compliance, this can be difficult if you are outside the general area of us 3, but we will endeavour to be available whenever possible, I have already inspected vehicles in Auckland and the South Island(Skope this year). If you are down south I can generally sort this out via some decent E-mail pictures and phone calls. Don’t do this a week before an event because we will have organising issues that will keep us busy and you will possibly be stood down until processed. Remember, we directors are all voluntary with other lives(yeah rite) in the future we will be looking to having a HMC representative handle compliance/inspection, now there’s a job if anyone wants to hold their hand up? Also, we at HMC are NOT Safety scrutineer’s, scrutineering is done for event/vehicle safety by MSNZ official’s at the track prior to any meeting, they aren’t interested in class compliance rules.

Rule definitions to one person always seen to mean something different to another, when infact they should really mean the same, but we know life isn't like that so below I’ve listed what some of you have enquired about, and what this actually means for you and your HMC racer in no particular order:

1. When reading the HMC regulations the very second paragraph needs to be read with eyes wide open, this is in the MSNZ T&C regulations for modified Saloons that we at HMC have not changed or reworded one iota, its word for word as written in the Motorsport manual, SO, when reading the "Thoroughbred & Classic Car Regulations Objectives" there are two words in the objectives in capital letters " ONLY ALLOWABLE" yes only allowable, what does the only allowable mean? it basically means that if you take at "Standard Series Production" based vehicle, you can only modify the components as allowed as written "below" in the quoted regulations, other than these quoted rules the rest of the "Standard Series Production vehicle" must remain just that "Standard" as it was manufactured and sold from the dealers show room, how does this work you say? well, when someone phones me asking about certain objectives like say, "can i remove the bonnet hinges and have a lift of bonnet" my answer is always "how was your particular vehicle manufactured and sold by the dealer, did it have a lift of bonnet when sold new, well the answer is usually no!! so i then say thats how your HMC vehicle must be, you've already answered your own question, simple!! so from this, all proposed HMC racers must understand that because we are really only "Classic Car Racers" your vehicle must remain as standard as possible, it must have door, boot and bonnet hinges, wind up windows, working headlights, correct bumpers, grill and moldings, door panels and handles, wipers, inner guards and on and on!! now we at HMC are not about been regulation crazy and make you have a working horn, indicators, bonnet and boot latches, door locks, badges, etc not interested, we are about common sence ruling of the "main" components as mentioned, im still more than happy to answer any questions if youre unsure, it does take a bit of getting your head around but you must remember, this was how most of the original saloons from our era were raced, usually straight from the showroom floor and this is what we at HMC are trying to replicate.

2. The same type of suspension must remain, you cannot reinvent what you particular vehicle never came with.

3. You can take your original suspension components and modify them for the purposes of racing, EG example, use a rod end were there’s normally a tie rod end, strengthen the suspension arms, etc.

4. Because of 1, you cannot fit Coil over spring/shocks, Shocks and springs must be mounted Factory as per your particular vehicle however that may have been

5. Because of 2, you can’t use aftermarket tube suspension arms(must use original component’s)

6. Steering box must remain in the original position, most vehicles in HMC would come with a steering box bolted to the chassis(Camaro, Mustang, Falcon, Monaro, etc) because of this you are allowed to fit any other style steering box that is of the same type and must also be bolted to the chassis in the same position! A good example of this is a Torana LX Hatch which came with a non P/S rack and pinion factory, you can remove and fit a power steering rack and pinion from another vehicle like say a Subaru? but it must be fitted in the original position. You cannot fit a chassis mounted style steering box to a vehicle fitted with a rack and pinion and vice verse, same as same goes.

7. Body work must be “Standard Series Production” and as most Muscle cars came with steel panels(except Corvettes) so steel it must be. There are exceptions like Shelby Mustangs that came with some fibreglass panels, these can only be used on your regular Mustang if it is off the same style "Body Model " but must be “exactly” as fitted on a Shelby and to qualify a 100 or more vehicles must have been fitted with these panels, EG: Eleanor Mustang kit panels non legal because not a Factory Standard Series Production item, same with Dekon Monza, and the same goes for a 69 Mach 1 bonnet scoop on a 65 Mustang or an A9X Torana scoop on a Monaro, all different Body Models.

8. Fender Flares, it is OK to fold the fender lips up and pump out the fender for clearance, what you can’t do is physically cut the fender flare and add metal to make them oversize, or heat and hand beat the fender that when finished doesn’t ressemble its original shape, or fit any race style flare that wasn’t fitted to a “Standard series Production” vehicle like say a Cologne Capri for instance, they never made more than 100 Cologne's to fit the Standard Series Production rule so can’t be used. I would say that this rule will be a judgement call by some but it'll be the 3 HMC directors will have the final say so before you weld on those big ears, contact us first.

9. 15X10 wheels are maximum width, unfortunately there are just some vehicles that you physically can’t fit a 10” wide wheel under, you must fit the width wheel to suit your car been regulated by #8 above. For instance a Capri is pretty much limited to a 8” wide rim, anything over that and we will be looking hard at how its fitted.

10. Brake Master Cylinder/Cylinders must be mounted in the original position your particular vehicle came with, for most this is the upper engine bay firewall either LH or RH side. You are allowed to fit a pedal box brake system using twin braking cylinders but these must be mounted to that upper firewall in the original position, in other words no floor mount or inside reverse mount master cylinders/pedal box systems.

End of Part 1

Steve Holmes

07-11-2012, 12:29 AM

Part 2:

11. Brake calipers listed under T&C are FREE, free ONLY means that you can use ANY brake Caliper that is of a style pre 12/1977, it must be a 2 piece bolt together caliper. Prior to 12/77 Wilwood use to be JFZ, their current Dynalite, Superlite, SL6, GNIII still made and sold new today have been around since before then, where their more modern 2 piece Wilwood calipers, along with some AP and Brembo Calipers cannot be used because their “style” is not pre 12/77, make sure you check before you buy!! All post 12/77 mono block style calipers are not legal.

12. You are allowed to fit Perspex/Plex-I glass windows(not windscreen), but these windows must be mounted in their original frames and mechanism so they can be wound up and down as per a Standard Series Production” vehicle, in other words you can’t just screw the perspex windows to the door frame.

13. Engines, most pre 12/77 Muscle cars on our eligibility list came with many styles of engines, the style of engine is based on 2 items, block deck height and cylinder head configuration which is determined by valve angle and port spacing. You can only use what your particular vehicle came with, lets look at a 65 Mustang Fastback as example? they only ever came with a 289 SB ford engine with a 8.2 deck block and Windsor style cylinder heads,(cast iron offcourse) because of this you cannot fit a 351 Windsor, Cleveland or Big Block, the block deck height is taller on all these engines and the Cleveland engine came with different cylinder heads, got that? some vehicles like a 69 Camaro came with just about every possible engine combination Chevrolet offered so is easy controlled, offcourse it still has to be an engine that was “Standard Series Production” that they made more than a 100 off so for you Chevy guys sorry, NO ZL1 Camaros which really means NO alloy blocks.

14. Cylinder Heads: Just about every pre 12/77 Muscle car on our eligibility list came with cast iron heads, these can be replaced with any Dart/RHS style iron replacement head but must be the same Valve angle and port spacing, so don’t buy a set of 18 degree iron heads for your SB Chev, not legal. These Iron heads can be ported to suit your requirements. Because they made more than “100 Standard series production” gen 1 big Block Camaros with alloy heads you are allowed to use these, but you are restricted to the OEM NHRA legal GM part number 12363408 replacement alloy head “only” and must be fitted “as out of the box” and cannot be modified in anyway, sure you can cut the valves etc but you cannot weld up and modify the ports, check with us for compliance before you fit a set.

15. You are allowed to fit any Aluminium cylinder head to any eligible HMC vehicle that was used in NZ/Australian motorsport prior to 12/77, that means you small block Ford guys can use Gurney Westlake alloy heads because Fahey used them here in NZ back in 67, Torana XUI's can use a Duggan alloy head also, this is a tricky statement that is meant to allow "old Period" engine componets for that historic look, now if you thinking perfomance wise you're better off with a set of expensive old Gurneys, then you just go for it because todays technoloy has left them in the dust, its that great under bonnet Historic and Classic look that were really after. For this same reason you are allowed to use weber carburetors, twin 4 barrel carburetors, even lucas fuel injection, etc but all these carburetor systems MUST fit under the Standard Series Production" bonnet, if they won't fit? well you can't use them can you!! self regulating it is.

16. Can i use a 2 piece driveshaft, same as i've constantly mentioned above, was your Standard Series Production" vehicle fitted with a 2 piece driveshaft? usually NO and if theres no mention of allowance in the regulations you can't have.

17. All interior trim must be installed except the headliner, carpets and back seat can be removed. The original Dash Pad/Panel must remain, the gauge panel in front of the driver can be replaced with one using aftermarket gauges. You can fit switch’s and other controls on the driveshaft tunnel or other parts for the dash panel, we want the general dash panel to look correct for your model vehicle, but modifications and holes for hardware mounting this is OK.

So once again, any questions about rule compliance and definitions please do contact us, we are here to help.

Below is next summer’s race dates: Please note, Possibility of a one day TACCOC event Sunday Nov 4th at Hampton, more to come.

PLEASE NOTE: ICE BREAKER DATE CHANGE, NOW 15/16TH SEPTEMBER

1 - Ice Breaker, 15/16th September 2012 at Hampton Downs
2 - Denny Hulme Festival, 18/20th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
3 - Denny Hulme Festival, 25/27th January 2013 at Hampton Downs
4 - Legends of Speed, 23/4th March 2013 at Hampton Downs

The Ice Breaker is first up this year so aim for this one, you have 3 months!! through the winter I'll keep you all reminded. Once again we are not about having large fields, we only want HMC and T&C legal cars and if we only have 6 or so cars, so be it. We will be racing with the under 3L Historic Saloons as well, most of us will be ready to dust of our cars(and ourselves) off by the time this event rolls around.

Also check out the current Classic Car Magazine for Steve Holmes monthly article and ramble about HMC's goings on, we also have further articles in NZV8 and Greg Sstokes has kindly added our race dates to NZ Hot Rod Magazine. Also in today’s high tech world it is a must to keep up with the play on thehttp://www.theroaringseason.com/forumdisplay.php?2-General-Discussion with some fantastic picture’s athttp://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?65-New-Zealand-Historic-Muscle-Cars-Under-HRC

Historic Muscle Car Tee Shirts are available for $20 each plus postage, E-mail me for size’s and colour.

That’s it from me again this month, any questions and queries don't hesitate to contact Myself, Tony or Steve. Remember if you are changing your car to suit HMC/MSNZ T&C Rules or building a new racer you will NOT be racing with other non compliant cars, its a level playing field for all. Lets keep the "Classic and Historic" in Classic and Historic racing. And I know I don't need to remind you but remember, "The Cars are the Stars" so that’s all from me for May 12, feel free to contact me or anyone of the directors below.

To race and be apart of HMC you need to join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their $50 membership deal is a bargain, and a requirement to race.

HMC WEBSITE: http://www.historicmusclecars.co.nz/

PLEASE NOTE: If you wish to be removed from this E-mailout please let me know, if you wish to add someone please do the same.

Take care and enjoy your Historic Motor sport

Dale Mathers dmathers@xtra.co.nz

Steve Holmes

07-11-2012, 12:36 AM

The latest car being rebuilt for HMC, this is Glenn Allinghams awesome big block '68 Camaro. Glenn has been campaigning the car in various classes over the years, but is now converting it for HMC. This was the first step, swapping in some 15" Superlite wheels and Goodyear Bluestreaks (the car previously wore 17" wheels). As we speak, the car is being fit with cast iron heads and the correct hood with lower cowl scoop.

This car is currently for sale if anyone is interested.

9500

9501

9502

9499

Kiwiboss

07-25-2012, 06:27 AM

HMC has had an update done to the rule on "brakes", this is to close a "loophole" below is the new wording in bold

3.11 Brakes: Brakes are “Free” except that all disc and drum friction surfaces must be made from ferrous material. Aftermarket “Substitute Part” two piece bolt together, fixed lug mounting aluminium calipers allowed. Modern mono-block or Radial mount calipers are not permissible. Cooling ducts may be fitted. Master Cylinder or Cylinders are to remain in the original position

Dale M

John McKechnie

07-31-2012, 10:14 AM

I have a question on rear windows.Can a perspex window be used with the securing straps? If the perspex is the correct size it is ok. But what about the securing straps-are they legal or not. This is not for me, but I have been asked this by a windscreen guy.

Kiwiboss

07-31-2012, 10:39 PM

RogerH

08-01-2012, 06:24 AM

Hi John

All very simple as per the rules below:

3.4 Glazing: Fitting of a laminated windscreen is strongly recommended. All other glazing may be substituted with alternative transparent material, but original fixing medium must be used including operating mechanisms. Rear screens to be minimum 5 mm thick

You will note the words “original fixing medium” in the rules which means yes you can used Perspex, plexi-glass, etc but the rear window must be mounted in the original rubber, not screwed to the frame, and NO securing straps, the same with the door glass and side windows, you still must beable to wined the windows up and down and open them!!

Dale M

Just playing the devil's advocate Dale - the wording in your regs may need a little tightening if you want to exclude securing straps. As it reads, someone could use Perplex etc using the original fixing medium (original rubber) but also use securing straps.
If you re-worded along these lines it would solve the problem (addition in bold) :

3.4 Glazing: Fitting of a laminated windscreen is strongly recommended. All other glazing may be substituted with alternative transparent material, but only the original fixing medium must be used including operating mechanisms. Rear screens to be minimum 5 mm thick

Oldfart

08-01-2012, 07:44 AM

I thought that MSNZ required securing bars for perspex rear windows? Looks wrong, but I know that we had to have them on the Alpine for Targa.

John McKechnie

08-01-2012, 08:54 AM

Why else do you think I asked this exact question!!

Kiwiboss

08-01-2012, 10:14 AM

It appears that all Appendix two - Schedule A vehicles post 1978 require 2, 3mm X 25mm straps with a plastic rear window fitted, under Appendix six - Schedule AA T&C and CR pre 78 vehicles this appears not to be the case, but before i make a final ruling on this im waiting for some further information.

Back to you all soon

Dale M

John McKechnie

08-02-2012, 12:25 AM

Appendix 2, schedule A,Read 5.11 (4) (c) says MUST have 2 straps...................................

Kiwiboss

08-02-2012, 10:09 AM

Correct John, i check with a MSNZ scrutineer and if you have a plastic rear window you need 2 of 3mm X 5mm straps attached to the body to hold the rear window just incase it blows out!! end of story, even if its ugly. Easier just the leave the glass rear window in.

Dale M

John McKechnie

08-02-2012, 07:22 PM

Price and availability of most back windows for these old car can justify fitting plastic and 2 straps.

Kiwiboss

08-02-2012, 08:11 PM

This rule is an original T&C ruling from way back, which we at HMC have used, we won't be changing any wording, if any proposed HMC racer wants to fit a plastic rear window with MSNZ legal straps thats fine by us, and as you mention John, with some old cars price and availability can be an issue so this does help.

Dale M(HMC director)

Kiwiboss

09-02-2012, 09:08 PM

September/October Newsletter for those interested. Dale M

Greetings HMC Racers and Fans

Winter is just about done and it’s been damn wet but some of you have been ferreting away in the garage which is great to hear, quite a few PH calls and E-mails regarding rules and definations so please keep then coming, always here to help. One prosective HMC South Island racer has purchased a 76 Camaro, wont see it for awhile but he will turn up one day and another out of Auckland has purchased a 68 Camaro ex vintage race car out of the US and with another in Auckland nearing completion of his Capri Perana V8, the Stevenson ex USA 66 Mustang fastback is making progress as well, a required MSNZ rollcage has meant stripping the car out for this, so other repairs and upgrades are being done at the same time including a firewall mounted pedal box and in box power steering. In its USA race history it was once a GT1 race car and had the inner shock towers removed, these have been replace for that correct under bonnet look, also an HMC rule requirement, Pete may make it to HMC's Ice Breaker event in 2 weeks, if not it certainly wont be without trying but most are aiming for next years Denny Hulme Festival, even thats not far away as well.

The annual MG Classic event at Manfeild is November 9th/10th/11th, all vehicles are welcome to race in the "Fast" classics group even if not to HMC rules but they must all be to Motorsport NZ T&C rules regardless, and this means mandatary DOT Road Legal 50 profile Tyres(one size up is allowed) and not the Goodyear blue streaks or Hoosiers we at HMC allow(they're not DOT approved), strange as this may seem it is an actual T&C rule(look it up) but is a must to level up the race grid because of the multi type vehicles in this group such as Escorts, Alfa’s, etc that would be allowed to race on a slick tyre. So other than the tyres, any HMC legal vehicle can race in this group, its a fantastic event so make the effort to attend.

We've had some controversy about plex-I glass or plastic windows, these are allowed under HMC and MSNZ T&C rules but please READ the ruling correctly, for the side doors, side quarter windows and side rear/door windows these must all be fitted into their correct window operating mechinisams so the windows can be opened and/or wound up and down just like the factory designed them, OK!! now the rear window if plex-I glass or plastic must be a minimum of 5mm thick and requires two metal supporting straps that are 3mm X 25mm securely attached to the body shell, this is a MSNZ requirement, personally i don't like the look of the straps but its mandatary if a plex-i glass rear window is used(see picture attached).

The other rule of controversy has been Diffs and Driveshaft’s, under our HMC Thoroughbred & Classic Car Regulations we define the “Only Allowable” objectives which would mean these two items must remain standard to your vehicle but with only Floater, Limited slip and locked differentials allowed under section “3.9 Differential”. Myself, Tony and Steve have had several discussion’s on this and came up with the following outcome, “Two piece steel and one piece aluminium Driveshaft’s allowed” but the Diff ruling will remain unchanged so for those with Ford 9” diffs, NO Alloy carriers allowed, must be cast iron as per the factory, the one main reason is that this will disadvantage GM 10 and 12 bolt diffs that don’t have a removable centre to allow for this weight saving. Now this will effect several vehicles including myself so like our 15” tyre ruling we will allow a period yet to be determined to make these changes and let’s face it, this is not a huge cost as it’s just a matter of removing your diff head and changing out the carrier with all the same internals, a job that can be done the next time you have the rear end apart. And while we’re on diffs remember Cambered housings aren’t allowed.

Entry for our September 15/16th Ice Breaker event is now available online below:

http://www.motorsportentry.com/

Please get entered as its only two weeks away and make sure you contact myself, Tony or Steve for vehicle compliance first. If you enter and turn up on the day, and your race car doesn’t comply you will be turned away.

SPECIAL MEETING: At the Ice Breaker meeting on Saturday the 15th Sept after the racing is finished for the day, myself, Tony and Steve will have a Question and Answer session at the Infield Hampton Building to talk about HMC, anyone is welcome to attend even if not racing, this is a chance to put faces and names to each other and intends to of a light hearted nature, so if you have an interest in Historic Muscle Cars and any questions please come along. This meeting is NOT and AGM or committee meeting and will not tolerate any self-absorbed interests, before you attend please read below and even print it out and bring it along so to remind yourself what you’re here for.

Philosophy. Historic and Classic motorsport is that branch of the sport where vehicles from a past era are used in friendly rivalry to allow them to be exercised in a manner that the manufactures intended. It is not a branch of the sport where series and trophies for winning races are held in higher regard than the sheer enjoyment of being involved.

Below is next summer’s race dates: Please note, Possibility of a one day TACCOC event Sunday Nov 4th at Hampton, more to come.

Don’t Forget: ICE BREAKER DATE CHANGE, IS NOW 15/16TH SEPTEMBER
PLEASE NOTE: ICE BREAKER DATE CHANGE, NOW 15/16TH SEPTEMBER

1 - Ice Breaker, 15/16th September 2012 at Hampton Downs
2 - Denny Hulme Festival, 18/20th January 2013 at Hampton Downs(be warned, this will be HUGE)
3 - Denny Hulme Festival, 25/27th January 2013 at Hampton Downs(be warned, this will be HUGE)
4 - Legends of Speed, 23/4th March 2013 at Hampton Downs

The Ice Breaker is just around the corner so aim for this one, you have 2 weeks!! next up will be Denny Hulme in January so through to the end of winter into summer I'll keep you all reminded. Once again we are not about having large fields, we only want HMC and T&C legal cars and if we only have 6 or so cars, so be it and we will be racing with the under 3L Historic Saloons and Sports and GT cars at these coming events.

Also check out the current Classic Car Magazine for Steve Holmes monthly article and ramblings about HMC's goings on. Articles like this help lift the profile of Historic Saloon car racing in New Zealand, it certainly attracts the type of person we want to see in HMC. Also in today’s high tech world it is a must to keep up with the play on the http://www.theroaringseason.com/forumdisplay.php?2-General-Discussion with some fantastic picture’s at http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?65-New-Zealand-Historic-Muscle-Cars-Under-HRC

Historic Muscle Car Tee Shirts are available for $20 each plus postage, E-mail me for size’s and colour.

That’s it from me again this month, any questions and queries don't hesitate to contact Myself, Tony or Steve. Remember if you are changing your car to suit HMC/MSNZ T&C Rules or building a new racer you will NOT be racing with other non compliant cars, its a level playing field for all. Lets keep the "Classic and Historic" in Classic and Historic racing. And I know I don't need to remind you but remember, "The Cars are the Stars" and this is a new one i heard the other day "Grey hairs and four Gears" very cool, so that’s all from me for another month, feel free to contact me or anyone of the directors below.

To race and be apart of HMC you need to join HRC http://www.grandprix.org.nz/Contact_Us.wse their $50 membership deal is a bargain, and a requirement to race.

HMC WEBSITE: http://www.historicmusclecars.co.nz/

PLEASE NOTE: If you wish to be removed from this E-mailout please let me know, if you wish to add someone please do the same.

Take care and enjoy your Historic Motor sport

Dale Mathers dmathers@xtra.co.nz , Tony Roberts tony@hamptondowns.com , Steve Holmes enquiries@monsterracewear.co.nz
HRC Members/HMC Directors