Discuss the various formats for historic racing

[markec]

There will always be those with differing views on how the grids and format of historic should be achieved,those with the faster cars seem to resent being put at the back of the grid or placed half a lap or so down. These days it is important to get bums on the seats at motorsport events,as the cost continue to climb it is becoming much more difficult for the young enthusiast to participate at anything other than club events, and that is getting too costly as well. So to create a spectacle for those who prefer to watch rather than participate, the racing needs to be entertaining.
This thread has been started to promote constructive comment.

[jim short]

A good point, but I normally read all new forums so I had no problem with the way it is Old fart a bit like the Govment stop the thing thats working {sell everything}

[rf84]

I think firstly we need to distinguish between genuine factory built race cars and replicas/recreations/reconstructions. On two occasions I have seen crashes where factory built race cars have been badly damaged by replicas. If you are driving a car with lots of history and is worth lots of money and someone comes along side you in a replica with no history and which can be fairly easily replaced with some '"furniture tube" and some Jap steel wheels, who is going to give way almost every time?

[Oldfart]

A good point, but I normally read all new forums so I had no problem with the way it is Old fart a bit like the Govment stop the thing thats working {sell everything}

Sorry Jim, like a number of your posts I am struggling to understand what you are saying.

[Russ Cunningham]

Sorry Jim, like a number of your posts I am struggling to understand what you are saying.

It's code my boy! Clever Jum, you've fooled us all again.

[Trevor Sheffield]

A good point, but I normally read all new forums so I had no problem with the way it is Old fart a bit like the Govment stop the thing thats working {sell everything}

A good point, but I normally read all new forums so I had no problem with the way it is, Oldfart. A bit like the Government, stop the thing thats working. (sell everything) ----- Howsat?

[AMCO72]

Do you want me to translate again?????? On second thoughts I think I should just shut up. Got meself into enough bovver on the HMC site. But hey, we are supposed to be having 'robust' discussion on these forums, and instead folk start having angina attacks at the slightest bit of controversy. That reminds me, must double up on the accurretic tonite!!!!! And thats not code Russ!!!!

[jim short]

Great we are back and alive THE only site that to the wide awake... that was been used was the hmcars input and I enjoy seeing each day in the morning lots of coments real or bu..itSo when only one is been used Why complain You kids go find somwhere else to play You know we should all get together for a few beers on a fishing trip or some thing ,be great those who use an alias could have a mask if they feel the need or then again I dont swim all that well

[RGM]

This could be an interesting thread,as a competitor joining the historic racing scene in the early 80s it is quite different today.
The range of cars around then was quite wide ranging compared to today as we have gone down the path of one type classing ieFormula Junior/Formula Ford etc.
Lots of the older slower cars and specials seem to have gone or now in the vintage group.
We did have some weird and scary grid mixes in years gone by as a lot of meetings Historics were all lumped together and I can well remember racing the Buckler in the same race as a Formula 5000,you sure stay alert.
I have always liked speed groups as in this format you can have a mix of car types in the same race just keep saloons sports and single seaters separate.

[screwdriver]

Generally, I totally agree with the previous post. It has to be speed groups. However, as there is usually a dearth of sports cars and an over abundance of saloons, I don't have a problem mixing the two. I just happen to run a very low car, but I am extra careful as racing against side any Jaguar saloon for example, then I know he can't see, me even if I am right alongside as my roof is below his window and I may not be in his mirror at all.
Currently (North Island) we have a logical progression for classic saloons and sports cars that has worked quite well for several years.
1) Classic trial for beginners and those who do not want to race seriously - clubsport licence. Cages not required.
2) Alfa, BMW E series, AES, Japanese Classics - race beginners accepted as are more experienced drivers - rules vary from no rollover protection to compulsory
3) BMW Open (though they are also looking to split), Arrow Wheels and I suggest most Muscle Cars belong in this category, for faster and more experienced drivers.

We now have one or two extra classes being promoted such as ACEs for slow race cars, MG Series, under 3000cc (that may or may not attract new drivers) and now we have Historic race saloons - a category that needs to be available.

All have their converts and the none one make series may also accept cars running in the one make classes, which means that Alfa, MG & BMW drivers may have more than one option.

The danger of extra classes is that if they do not attract new competitors, then the promoters lose out on potential entry fees where a car is entered in two classes at the one meeting, unless they charge an additional fee and currently, most do not.

Single seaters and the historics have their own structures, but tiny grids of 4 cars just to let a race group run, are not much good for anyone.

[AMCO72]

RGM, if you did race in classic/historic type racing in the early 80's, you will notice a BIG difference in the speed of these cars today. In the old BMC classic series at Taupo, cars that used to be front runners then, are sitting in about midfield now. I was away from the race scene for about 20 years then came back, with the same car, and couldn't believe how FAST everyone had got in the intervening years. Everyone is getting serious......for what, surely not to win!!! Ford Escorts that used to put out 120 hp are now putting out double that. I well remember one competitor turning up at Taupo with a very nice, and very fast, car one year, and all of a sudden that car became the benchmark for everyone else, or you just looked silly on the track. This trend seems to have continued. Probably would have been fine if you had been competing all those years, but to come back into it after an absence it was a big shock.
Keeping saloons and open cars separate might make some sense, but we had a similar situation in the HMC races at HD. Some of the Muscle Cars were left-hand drive so that added an extra hazzard, as well as the height difference. When you look at the photos of the racing, the Mini is almost invisible when surrounded by larger cars. You really do have to have eyes in the back of your head.
When we went to the South Island last year I really enjoyed racing with a big mix of cars, something we dont do to that extent up here. and so long as we are all similar in performance it is ok. Might depend on the track as some definately suit a Mini and some dont......the ones with long fast straights. But at least there is a lot of overtaking and not just processional 'racing'.
Seems everyone agrees on the need for well supported grids, as small fields get a bit ho-hum......time to visit the hot-dog stand.

[AMCO72]

Going on from there.......we seem to have been talking a lot about having FUN while competing on the track. I used to watch the BNT V8's a bit in the past and could never understand how those poor people at the back of the field, with 30 cars in front of them, could possibly be having fun. They were always in the same position at every meeting, so why didn't they just give up. Well they did eventually......must have been slow learners!!

It always amuses me that the comments on having FUN are from the people at the pointy end of the grid. I could suggest that they remove 4 spark-plug leads [the ones I specify] from their V8's then go out and race. They would soon be trailing around at the rear of the field wishing the bloody race would finish and definately not having FUN. Coming into the pits when everyone is giving them the 'poor sod' look, as though they had been driving Grandmas Ford Pop, while the rest of the competitors are sitting comfortably in their garages munching egg sandwiches and sipping cheeky cranberry juice! No one has ever asked me, if after coming in last, whether I was having fun. They would be liable to get an egg sandwich in their face.

Someone was talking about speed groups which I happen to think is a great way to go. The decade system used at the Bruce McLaren festival was hopeless, and I had a long discussion with Mike Sexton on that topic, but he said given the time frame it was the easiest way to do it. The public don't know whether a car is a 1965 or a 1975, and nor do they care. All they want to see is some racing among cars of similar performance. Not 40 cars going round in a procession, no matter how fast. High speed lappery, as Derek Bell of Le Mans fame put it.

Would like to hear others views on this fun thing. Frankly I dont enjoy thrashing a car to within an inch of it's life, that is why Oldfarts pre 60 saloons held such interest for me. Ok you say just get out, and leave the real racing to the real men. Well I might just do that. Licence time coming up in September......MEDICAL!!!!!!!! God I just squeezed through last year, with all sorts of tests on the border-line, and I'll bet all that Kentucky Fried Chicken [tm] has done my arteries no good at all in the last 12 months.

[Carlo]

The fun is being competetive against the benchmark you set for yourself.
As an example I have an Uncle who is in his late 80's and he still competes at the Masters Games in the 10k walk. Last time I went to watch him he was straight over to check the results just as soon as they were published. Naturally he cleaned up the 80+ class but what took my interest was that he was looking at the over 50's times until he explained that his benchmark was to finish under the time set by the 4th placed person in that class. As it was he would have finished 3rd in that class so he went home a very happy man

[Russ Cunningham]

Tend to agree with AMCO. A shame to see old cars turning up with twice the horsepower the had originally. Another display by people with money and limited ability
feeding their egos.

[screwdriver]

My first race was at Pukekohe and the winner was in a Lotus Cortina and his fastest lap was 1:20.
My own current car is bog standard and my initial lap times once I'd got to know it were 1:23. The only items that have changed since about 1991 have been 1" larger wheels and brakes that now last more than 5 laps.
Lap times on a good day are now mid 1:16s and that improvement is almost soley due to tyre technology. Each time I changed tyres, the times came down. With aged tyres, the times always creep back up again.
As AMCO says quite rightly, (car) age means nothing. Generally engine size means very little, so only speed groups and handicap races cover all bases. Classic motorsport is supposed to be about participation and enjoyment but there are still a few who believe winning is the main objective.
I really don't see how anyone can object to speed grouping. Those with bigger budgets who enjoy getting the last ounce out of their cars do so because like the 80 year old masters games runner or any golfer, it is a personal thing.
For me, I can't really go any faster without modifying the car (or taking risks) but as that is not going to happen, I can only aim for consistency and just enjoy the scene.

[Racer Rog]

In the Classic Motor Racing Club meetings, we usually have about 4 grids, dependant on entries, no grid positions, no timing, and grids are made up of big saloons, small saloons, open top sports and GT's and single seater cars, it works and there is some fine racing, as you often are not racing with the guys at the front, but with your buddies in a similar car beside you, and as we have a policy of no winners, but have fun and exercise your car to its and your ability, we have found that timing has not been an issue, and as it would cost more to provide it, it goes down well, our entries fees are set at our AGM every year, and at this point sit at $80.00, and the cub picks up the tab for the difference, it may sound strange, but that's what the members wanted, it all sounds strange, but it works, and when you see the racing, it's impressive, Noddy Murdoch biting on the heels of Jim Little is quite a sight, we are lucky that we have a good bunch of drivers, and panel damage is a rare thing.
Roger

[AMCO72]

So RacerRog, you say no grid positions. What do you do, draw them out of a hat? And when you say BIG saloons and small saloons, is that on engine size or physical size. Eg, I would call an Anglia with a Corvette engine a big saloon, and an Anglia with it's original engine a small saloon. All sounds pretty good to me. Do you have a branch in the North island? My memory of Jim Little is in the Wellington Street Race supports in 1985, I think. He was driving a Black AP5 Valiant, and giving a certain Mini driver an extremely hard time, like trying to T bone him at the hairpin. Then he clipped the curb once too often, and BOOM, flat front tyre. Bye bye Jim. Has he settled down a bit nowdays!!!!

[markec]

No Gerald, he still has moments when Mintie's aren't enough.

[Racer Rog]

Yep, no grid positions, first up best dressed, the reality is that the drivers go to where they are most comfortable, small saloons and big saloons are just that, but we do mix some that are damm quick together, but I doubt if we would have a Angle box with a V8 in it, unless it came with a schedule K CoD, it would not get a look in, we are quite particulat about what can run and what can not, so all vehicles must have a CoD, or a VAC from our club, and as we are the Classic motor Racing Club, the make must have some racing history. Yes Jim's still alive and well, and can still drive the pants off a lot of others, although I think he is mellowing these days.
Roger

[Carlo]

Yep, no grid positions, first up best dressed, the reality is that the drivers go to where they are most comfortable, small saloons and big saloons are just that, but we do mix some that are damm quick together, but I doubt if we would have a Angle box with a V8 in it, unless it came with a schedule K CoD, it would not get a look in, we are quite particulat about what can run and what can not, so all vehicles must have a CoD, or a VAC from our club, and as we are the Classic motor Racing Club, the make must have some racing history. Yes Jim's still alive and well, and can still drive the pants off a lot of others, although I think he is mellowing these days.
Roger

So Roger you are saying that the number that the grid marsahals stick on our steering wheel when we are on the dummy grid means nothing and we are free to line up where ever we want to and that we don't need to hire the transponders for he meeting.

Just wait until the next meeting when all the Shellsport cars running in the small class want to be on pole. :D

[rf84]

I endorse what Racer Rog says-that given a choice, people will line up where they feel most comfortable. HRSCC usually do this at their December Taupo meeting and from my experiece it works very well. Even the Historic Formula Fords that have some fiercely competitive drivers have used it successfully. We've all heard the expression "When the flag drps the bullshit stops". With this system, if someone puts himself on pole, there are heaps of drivers who will try and knock him off his perch. At the end of the race you will find out how accurate people's opinion of their ability really was.

[Dave Silcock]

I can now see that after a period of almost 20 years after I last had a competion licence I have drifted into the wrong sport and the wrong forum. I blame Jim for this but I find myself continually at odds with what you lot are saying. Russ you say you are shocked to see people racing cars with twice the power they had in the day and accuse those who do so as having an excess of money. I put it to you the opposite is the case, those with money hate people like me and Bob and Jamie because we can do things they can't and will do anything to stop us. I am not suprised to find Amco does not enjoy his Mini, I'd be lucky to do a lap in a car like that at my age, solid mounted motor, nasty twitchy steering and all the rest. What he needs is a carriage with a little more decorum. For my self cars have always been the stars , why else why would I race the cars I have, with the exception of the Escort and that was not my decision,I have raced what I thought would be amusing. Or more to the point to prove some theory of tuning. Which is what the Blue car is all about. I have always been a student of air flow and power out put, particually of slow reving engines.Prompted by Phil Irvings statement that achiveing 100bhp /liter was very difficcult under 8000 rpm and that the Manx Norton was at the time the finest air pump known to man kind I decided to see if this was possibile with a Jaguar. The car is only a vehicle to test this and if this upsets the people that have to pay to have this sort of work done then tough titty

[jim short]

Dave you are only picking on me because I am smaller and went around Champion in top gear,,40yrs this month you gave my {mustnot mention Jags} Primrose car a tune up and you had the cheek to charge $17 then in the dark and heavy rain we went down Ripon cres..to test it not sure what revs you used as my eyes were not open I do remember the coments gee theese aquajets are great!!!Now there is a class you are more than welcome to take part in and the best ever class to line up ,you will not win but that never worried you,I remember asking yrs. ago why dont you run a better car ?Because I wish to run a J...u..r but this class has the best cars regardless of size or power, and never have I been so shure that the blue J..;;/ would be national headlines,, I may have to prize the studant out to travel down to inspect the J.. if hes still a friend

[Racer Rog]

The only meeting that we do run grids and positions allocated to vehicle is the ENZED Classic meeting, where after saving their pennies every year, the drivers can afford to hire a transponder, it also gives the illusion that they maybe big time racers, so who are we to spoil their dream!!, as for the Shell Sport Cars, is yours ready? and I don't see a list yet, as you know, you get the numbers and we will save a place for them, until then, its the small saloons for you!!
Roger


So Roger you are saying that the number that the grid marsahals stick on our steering wheel when we are on the dummy grid means nothing and we are free to line up where ever we want to and that we don't need to hire the transponders for he meeting.

Just wait until the next meeting when all the Shellsport cars running in the small class want to be on pole. :D

[nzeder]

When I first got involved with a car club in mid 90's the club held a 2 day weekend at Pukekohe. Racing grids were based solely on lap time. I even made an application to help produce grids based on lap times throughout the day. This meant if you got faster during the day you could get pushed up to a faster grid.

Ok sure these meetings were not for point based on a series. I was only in my early 20's and joined this car club as I was interested in the marque/model while I saved for one of the cars in question (20 years later, 7 of these cars have passed or stayed in my garage). I recall talking to competitors on the dummy grids of these meeting, fun is what they were all having.

The time based grids were 100% reverse grids. Grid size was selected by laptime spreed but always targeted at 20 to 25 cars and it did not matter what marques/model, only open wheelers/historics had their own time based grids. Starts were also handicapped with the goal of getting the grid to cross the finish line within the field laptime differential. E.G. if the laptime between the fastest car and slowest car was 5 seconds the handicapping was set so most of the grid of 20 would pass the start finish line within 5 seconds of each other. It may have been fun for the competitors but it was nuts in the timing bus with just a single pc managing the timing, it was bit manual writing race numbers down as someone called them out as the speed past.

The club has not held a race meeting for many years now, sad but as members moved on or like me started families and moved OS I guess these thing happen.

Again my impressions on these meeting held by The Datsun Z Club in the 90's was FUN, competitors having FUN racing different makes/models held under the T&C rules of the day, based solely on laptimes. ( It was not fun in the timing bus, but we knew the harder it was for us the closer the racing/finish was)

Regards
Mike

[AMCO72]

Dave, what did you have in mind for me, as you say, 'a carriage with more decorum'. Surely not a Jaguar!!!! I actually like driving the Mini, but not on the race track. As is usual, I like to do illegal things with it, like take it for a blast in the countryside round Cambridge and just listening to the howl of the gears. Don't need to be going very fast, just accelerating out of corners on traffic free roads. Music to the ears. I think the 'law' would take a dim view of my activities if they spotted me......'no lights Sir'......'No officer, it's daylight and I can see, even without my glasses!!!! I seem to be doing these anti-social things less and less these days. Actually the car is probably in better condition than some of the rubbish I see out there.....mostly of the turbo-charged Subaru variety, with the driver sittting on the floor. I'm sure I would get fined slightly more than the 13/6 I got stung for on the Leeston run!!!
So it seems from all your comments that it is me that is out of step here, and that the rest of you are having a hilarious time racing with your mates. Well bully for you. But I hope you are not trying to WIN, because that's what it sounds like to me, and that is NOT the spirit of Classic racing.
Attended the HD round of the Super-tourers yesterday, and the Guy at the back was definately NOT having FUN......and I got that straight from the horses mouth!!!!!!!

[Racer Rog]

AMCO72, they are in a different sand pit, and I'm unsure as to just what will happen between the two top classes, BNTV8's or Super Tourers, I can't see both surviving, given that sponsors tins maybe a bit on the light side at this point in time, and would appear that worse is to come, and from what I can gather, the only winners will be the Lawyers, so in saying that, it is good news for those that race in Historic and Classic classes, as some of those people will race their own cars here, and when you race your car, you are very aware of what it costs!!
Roger

[Oldfart]

I have just had a call from my son in the UK who yesterday went to the endurance race at Silverstone with his mates.
There was a Lamborghini only couple of races, which he said was a total snore. Very fast exciting cars, but no variety. The main race was unbelievable, in his words. McLaren F1, BMWs, Audi R8, Porsches, Ferraris, etc etc. This, he said was what he wanted to see, heaps of variation, different cars stron in various ways, PROPER pitstops, and apparently those who went all saying much the same. 25 pounds for the day, open pitlane when races were not running, free access to the grandstands which were open(some were closed, but not the ones in good spots) and a great day out, except it was cold and damp.
Now if this is what a group of 20 something year olds want to see???????

[RogerH]

I think there has been a gradual change happening in NZ motor sport over the last few years and there are probably many factors at play. The so called "Tier 1" which is meant to represent the pinnacle of NZ motor sport according to MSNZ has suffered under the poor management, the impact of strained economic times and the defection of most of the "star" drivers and sponsors to the SuperTourer series. I agree with Racer Rog that only one of these top series will survive and that there is worse to come with the litigation commenced by the old series people that will unfortunately develop into involving MSNZ and as a result the clubs and then onto competitors.
All of this will just mean that there will be an intensification of the move towards historic and classic racing where things are less complicated and racing is more for enjoyment rather than the hassles and uncertainty of the "premier" classes. There will always be a premier component but it needs lots of sorting out and there is more blood to be spilt.
In the historic series that we run (Formula Junior), we have done away with championships and points. There is nothing to race for at the end of the season so this tends to curtail the demon "at all costs" racing and the tricky little modifications that are not really allowed under the operative regulations. Racing is purely for the fun of having a good dice and the camaraderie of mixing with like minded people - it doesn't matter if your dice is for 1st or 9th place. As a result of this approach we are having increased grids with more cars coming into the country. A number of the newer drivers are from more competitive racing backgrounds but they seem to enjoy the more relaxed format provided by historic racing. The same things seems to be happening overseas with relatively diminishing "premier" grids and increasing historic grids.

[Racer Rog]

RogerH, Nigel reckons you cheating, he reckons you have ordered a new set of AF spanners to replace the old WW2 ones in your tool kit. But you are correct about Historic racing, the trick will be to keep it "as it was, so it shall be" a number of classes have taken steps to keep it this way, and this is where I see the CoD, and HTP systems coming to the fore, and as you know the Historic Commission have taken time and steps along these lines, and are developing these systems and helping them evolve to ensure things "stay the same"
Roger

[RogerH]

RogerH, Nigel reckons you cheating, he reckons you have ordered a new set of AF spanners to replace the old WW2 ones in your tool kit.
Roger

Damn - Nigel has been searching for some cheating for the last ten years and this is the best he can come up with? I'll have to go and rough the spanners up so they look old .......

The "as it was, so it shall be" is our mantra and if adhered to it does make for a level playing field. You need to be careful though as there are replacement parts for our historic cars that are sold as being the same as period when they aren't. I bought a new set of so-called period magnesium wheels for the Lola which when I compared them to my originals they were quite a few mm wider in the rim - however it had been done in such a way with the offset that the track dimension remained the same but the rim was wider. Needless to say they have been put into storage and the old originals restored. Now, don't get me going on "period" Ford 105E cylinder heads ........

[Dave Silcock]

Damn - Nigel has been searching for some cheating for the last ten years and this is the best he can come up with? I'll have to go and rough the spanners up so they look old .......

The "as it was, so it shall be" is our mantra and if adhered to it does make for a level playing field. You need to be careful though as there are replacement parts for our historic cars that are sold as being the same as period when they aren't. I bought a new set of so-called period magnesium wheels for the Lola which when I compared them to my originals they were quite a few mm wider in the rim - however it had been done in such a way with the offset that the track dimension remained the same but the rim was wider. Needless to say they have been put into storage and the old originals restored. Now, don't get me going on "period" Ford 105E cylinder heads ........

Now I am absolutly convinced I am on the wrong forum, you have got to be joking!!!!

[jim short]

Dave calm down now you can understand why taccoc are what they are ,just try to see the fun they create ,Jammie I am still working on the inkplot but to have the two of you in one day burn my ears!!! to much laughter can be bad you know

[Dave Silcock]

Now I am absolutly convinced I am on the wrong forum, you have got to be joking!!!!

Further to this Rog why have you not destroyed these perfidious wheels in case your childern should put them on your Lola after you have gone and corrupt the purity of the car for future generations?

[Racer Rog]

I'm told they are being made into coffee tables
Roger

[Steve Holmes]

Interesting thread! What I find a bit surprising is that so much of the content within this thread is on the subject of finding ways in which as many people as possible in a given race have a shot at winning the race. And yet, its always been my personal opinion that historic racing is about the cars, not the people who drive them, unless those people are as historically significant as the cars themselves.

To me, the emphasis of modern motorsport, as opposed to historic motorsport, is about winning races and championships. This is much of the reason for so many modern day championships becoming either one-make racing, or so tightly controlled that despite the participation of multiple brands, all the cars are effectively equal in performance, which provides a more equal platform for teams and drivers to demonstrate their skills. The essence and attraction of modern motorsport is the challenge of pitting driver against driver, team against team. But it seems there are a lot of people who get into historic motorsport with the mind-set of someone who is racing in modern motorsport. That’s what I find slightly curious.

To my mind, and maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but historic racing is about old cars, and celebrating history. Whether the cars have a competition history, or they're newly built for historic racing, I've always felt the emphasis should be on the cars themselves, and not who wins. I mean, seriously, does anyone really think Ferrari are looking to find their Felipe Massa replacement at a historic racing event? What do you get if you win in historic racing? Is your achievement greater than the guy who finishes 9th? Are you a better driver than those you're racing against if you win? Where will this great, apparently, un-tapped talent lead to once you begin winning races in historic events?

I do agree that there is a need for pulling together grids of cars that do share a relatively level degree of performance, but I think its just as important to formulate grids that look like they did at a certain period in history, with cars racing cars they would have raced against when new. With historic racing saloons in particular, this is achieved through much of the regulations that are in place. The NZ Group T&C rules are, in my opinion, very good. In Australia, the CAMS Appendix J (Group Na), plus Group Nb and Nc are also very good. They do tend to favour certain cars, being largely production based, but that’s just how motor racing is, and its always been that way, and to be fair, the performance variances are not huge when all the cars are built to a specific set of historic regulations. I feel there should be more importance placed on making sure everyone in the field has other people to race against. What I don’t like is seeing a car that is much slower than the rest of the field, I just wonder if that person is having any fun, driving around on their own. But the only occasions I've seen this happen are when the grids are too loosely regulated, where there is a huge performance gap between the cars, where a relatively modern Sports Sedan or GT car is pitted against a 50 year old production based car.

If you race an interesting car, people in the grandstands will notice you and follow your progress, regardless of whether you win or finish 20th. And they’ll beat a path to your pit bay between races too, because that’s what historic racing is about, the cars.

I’ve recently been quietly collecting parts to build an HQ Monaro coupe for the new NZ Historic Muscle Cars class. It’ll take me a long time to build the car, because I have no money. I won’t have the most powerful motor, or the best gear. And to be honest, the HQ is a pretty big heavy car. I could take the same running gear and fit it into a Chevy Monza. The Monza is smaller, lighter, more nimble, and vastly more aerodynamically superior. The Monza would have me running much closer to the front of the field. But I don’t want a Monza, I want a Monaro. I’ve loved them since as a kid I first saw a photo of Bob Janes example. I really just want a car that’s fun to drive, enjoyable to own, enjoyable to polish between races, and that, in my opinion, looks good. And I want a car that others will enjoy seeing raced.

To me, that’s what historic racing is all about, going out and having fun in a car I’ve always loved. I don’t really care how far down the grid I am, and I know I won’t be at the front, and to be honest, I don’t really care. In fact, if I am at the front, the pressure to win will probably remove the fun factor for me anyway. As long as there is someone down at the back of the grid for me to do skids with, that’s all I really want. I don’t have the budget to go out and blow everyones doors off, but I can put my energy into other areas, like making the car look as good as it possibly can. I have enough pressures and stress in other areas of my life without making my motorsport stressful as well.

Hey, maybe I'm full of crap. Maybe I’ll get this thing to the track, do a few races at the back of the field and my competitive nature will kick in, and I’ll want to move forward, but at this stage, that’s not my motivation for doing this.

Lets face it, if everyone wants to win, then only one guy is going to be happy at the end of the race.

[nzeder]

Steve,

I agree with what you have posted. I love muscle cars and race cars from the 70's ,I guess as that is the era I grew up in as a young boy. I have never owned a V8 powered anything but love a good inline 6. I love the Nissan/Datsun Z cars as they were very different to most cars coming out of Japan in the late 60's early 70's. I too don't have a lot of $$ and it has taken me 15 years so far to rebuild one zed (and it is still a body shell and lots of parts). I have raced 2 other 240z over the years and I am looking forward to getting my new project going (leaving the road car for another 15+ years ;) ) I know I will not win and I don't think I will every have enough talent to do so - therefore I am much like you - having my car out there showing it for what it is and just having fun driving the car as it was designed to do - race.

I think we are lucky here in NZ to have our T&C rules for period modified cars (like you say be they fresh built or with history) and Schedule K for Standard Series Production Cars or "the car" as raced in period - with the period mods still in place. As I read the appendix 6 of the manual Schedule K is not for "replica cars" freshly built to be an exact replica of a period race car - cars built like that are either T&C or CR.

As you have pointed out if I wanted to win a race I would look at class/series that is running see what car is required to win within the rules and build a car, or just purchase a winning car, and run that to win the class. However like most of us this is not what we do - we select the car we want to race in classic or historic grids as we have a connection/fascination with the marque/model in question. We do it because we love to and we love the cars we do it in. I for one want clean and safe grids so my car stays in the same shape it starts - if I wanted a bent car I would not race a classic that takes time to find parts (if still available) or lots of $$ as these parts become rare as the years roll by.

[Trevor Sheffield]

I for one have become confused by the comments on offer regarding current historic and or classic racing. Please, can an important point be defined. The word “race” defines the events in question, but is or is not this a point of fact?

(1) Given that not all cars in a “race”, because of unavoidable performance differences can not expect to win the “race”, do the drivers gain pleasure and have fun in finishing ahead of their nearst rival? Accepted that risk of damage becomes part of the equation.

(2) Given that they have no hope of winning, have many of the so called contestants, entered to simply show off a car and pretend to be a racing driver? In which event, they certainly are not experiencing a motor “race”.

Unless this situation is defined and agreed, surely there is no way forwards. :confused:

Trevor.

[RogerH]

Now I am absolutly convinced I am on the wrong forum, you have got to be joking!!!!

I understand that retaining a race car in a "frozen" configuration that existed some 50 years without the ability to do any further material development must be an anathema to a development race engineer who's skills are modification for improved performance. However, most historic race regulations around the world are based on maintaing historic cars in a format that is consistent with period regulations.
While just a few mm in a rim width may not sound that important, the next step could be just a little bit of engine over-bore - then how about we re-fabricate those top arms so we can get a bit more castor - then how about moving the engine back a few mm to improve the car's balance. Where would it end? We would probably end up with something that looks a bit like the historic car it is meant to represent but is in fact a different animal.
There are plenty of places for the application of skilled engineering to obtain increased performance but I think the regulations of most of the traditional historic race classes don't provide the opportunity for these non-period modifications.

[RogerH]

I for one have become confused by the comments on offer regarding current historic and or classic racing. Please, can an important point be defined. The word “race” defines the events in question, but is or is not this a point of fact?

(1) Given that not all cars in a “race”, because of unavoidable performance differences can not expect to win the “race”, do the drivers gain pleasure and have fun in finishing ahead of their nearst rival? Accepted that risk of damage becomes part of the equation.

(2) Given that they have no hope of winning, have many of the so called contestants, entered to simply show off a car and pretend to be a racing driver? In which event, they certainly are not experiencing a motor “race”.

Unless this situation is defined and agreed, surely there is no way forwards. :confused:

Trevor.

Competing in a "race" or having a "race" doesn't necessarily mean that if you didn't win then you haven't competed or raced. You can have a great race and come in 9th - you can even have a great satisfying race and come last (if you had a cut and thrust competition with the car that came second to last).
I run my front engined car with drum brakes against rear engined cars with disc brakes - I have minimal chance of winning due to the inherent characteristics of the car but I often have fantastic races with cars similar to mine and we may end up something like 4th or 5th. I certainly don't think I'm just showing off the car or pretending to race - so I'm going with your proposition (1).

[nzeder]

Since I returned to NZ I have attended a number of classic meetings as a spectator and I have only done a few classic trials so I really can't comment with an substance on "racing" but I do see races within races. Competitors have a good dice with other marques but at the same performance levels. The buzz I see on competitors faces, the yarns about this lap or that passing move with others etc. So I say there is a lot of drivers out there having "FUN".

Having watched all this for the past 6+ years....I want into this fun too. I know when I finish my zed and hit the track I will not win a race, but I do expect to see a competitor as my target, the guy/girl I see as the benchmark. Or maybe someone else you notice is faster on a sector so that then becomes the target match or better that.

A race is a race and like all forms of competitive sport there will be a winner. Handicap racing does allow for an event/series organizer to change this a bit so the field has a different dynamic to compete in.

So Trevor I agree with #1 too.

[Racer Rog]

Trevor, I think that if you want to win in your racing, then I suggest that Historic and classic racing are not for you, you will find a place in club sport racing or join in with the big boys, I think you should be seeing a common thread here, its not about winning for winnings sake, its about the the cars, cars in period, that's not to say that they are driven like granny drive her Morri thousand on Sunday, but driven in the spirit to which they were intended in THEIR DAY, and I think that's where a few get it wrong, I have seen many fine cars that look like an old car, untill you look at the engine, gearbox, and just about every thing else, why? some have said its to expensive to fit a real BDA into a Escort, and then you are looking at a 50 to 60k engine and gearbox installation and about 2.7 litres of motor and 320hp, and they say its a replica, not in my book, and as far as the Historic commission of MotorSort NZ is concerned, its just a club car, and hence the saying, "as it was, so it shall be", I know this may seem harsh to some, but if you want to go out and win in that type of car, there are other venues in motor sport to do this, and I am always surprised when some competitors get upset about this policy, as if you read T & C, and schedule K, you can come up with some quick vehicles, and as a very wise man once said in his after dinner speech, " the racing started when the rules were posted" ( 10 points if you can name him) with the onset of of Shell Sport cars, BNZ cars and the like, the Historic Commission will work with these groups, as has been done with the F5000's and HMC, to ensure that there are ways possible to follow the rules set down in the past, the worry is that it is hard to peg back engine development, eg BDA's will put out a bit more than they did in their day and are more reliable, and there are other factors as well, one of the biggest changes would be tyres, so getting that right is important, Roger H has high lighted some factors
and Steve has hit it well, so Trev, if you can suck it in, forget about winning and have fun, you may find the stress level drops a bit, as there are no farms as prizes in our racing but there is spirited competition!
Roger

[Bruce302]

This is a great thread indeed, I will add a few thoughts if I may.

There seems to be as many different ideas on what racing, and especially "Historic" racing is all about. No doubt there are as many definitions as there is cars and drivers. Unfortunately NZ does not have the depth or number of truly Historic race cars for the number of people who want to be involved. This has lead to a vast number of 'Historic' race cars that are nothing more than new cars built using older body shells.
They may have anything from virtually new NASCAR engines and running gear, or Aust V8 underpinnings. My personal definition of an historic car, is one that has history, competing in the period it was first made. Ironically my own car, the ex Coppins Firebird is not eligible to compete in the Historic Muscle car class. That despite it having some very significant history, and being virtually identical to it's period configuration. But that doesn't worry me at all. I have seen too much crazy behaviour on the track. For those that are not aware, in the US, specifically the Monterey Historics, period history is required, and even then there is no guarantee of acceptance to compete. For those that do compete, and there is any on track contact, there is an immediate stand down, you're on the trailer and out of there, and a 13 month no return. You don't even get to go back the following year. They are running cars that have in some instances the past, sold for many millions of dollars, and they take the whole business very seriously.

At an event further East, there were grid starting positions, and pre determined finishing positions. Have all the fun you want, but come home in the correct order or you will be on the trailer. I believe there is a lot of fun to be had just be exercising the real historic cars.
Something like this:
I like to do illegal things with it, like take it for a blast in the countryside round Cambridge and just listening to the howl of the gears. Don't need to be going very fast, just accelerating out of corners on traffic free roads. Music to the ears.

We have all had fun on deserted roads, I suggest that those that need the thrill of competition, build a new race car and race in a points and reward series.
There seems to be enough different 'Historic' classes and series for the differing needs or desires of the various car owners. It's just a matter of finding the one that suits your particular wishes.

Bruce.

[jim short]

The Country Gents at Wigram had the best set up ,an entertaining driver talk with some new unseen flags on display then the drivers chosen to win was announced example Ray Archibald always wins so he will win the over 3lt. Bill Smith{ex} our lawer will win the sports car face and so on Alister Ansill?was real good, but anyone damaging a car was out ,The last time I was there 1995? a xjs jag Hit a 911 in the first ten mins. He was out the gate before 20 mins were up!!

[jim short]

Roger how about having your crankshaft and rods checked to make sure its the correct steel I doubt if 1 car can not be faulted the most important part is the tyres are they as per original????

[RogerH]

Jim, the international regs we run to state with respect to crankshaft and rods :

The crankshaft is free, but it must retain the original stroke

Connecting rods are free provided they are made of ferrous metal.

with tyres , the regs state :

cars must use either Dunlop Vintage range tyre R 5 pattern or older or ”L” section tyres only which have 204 compound and tread pattern CR65 or earlier

All these area provide for some potential variance from period. In our class of racing, about half the cars now days run billet cranks but there was billet crank use in some cars in period so the change here may be limited to better quality metal. With the rods, there is no real fancy metal use although the more modern designs are potentially a bit lighter than period. However, I recently saw some period rods from a works 1960 engine that were beautifully made and were only a few grams heavier than the modern equivalent.

With the tyres there is definitely an improvement over period even though the Dunlop CR65 L section tyres are the hard 204 compound. I suppose everyone uses the CR65 as the spec tyre as getting real period tyres is close to an impossibility.

[jim short]

Roger so what you are saying that if I bring out the original Lotus that my dad parked up after only 3 months use back in the 50s I would be at a huge disadvantage yes or no???

[Dave Silcock]

I understand that retaining a race car in a "frozen" configuration that existed some 50 years without the ability to do any further material development must be an anathema to a development race engineer who's skills are modification for improved performance. However, most historic race regulations around the world are based on maintaing historic cars in a format that is consistent with period regulations.
While just a few mm in a rim width may not sound that important, the next step could be just a little bit of engine over-bore - then how about we re-fabricate those top arms so we can get a bit more castor - then how about moving the engine back a few mm to improve the car's balance. Where would it end? We would probably end up with something that looks a bit like the historic car it is meant to represent but is in fact a different animal.
There are plenty of places for the application of skilled engineering to obtain increased performance but I think the regulations of most of the traditional historic race classes don't provide the opportunity for these non-period modifications.

What I find most annoying about comments like this is they are based on the assumption that every car is running under Schedule K. Nowhere in T&C is there anything to say I can,t double the horsepower of my motor. And if you go back to the original Group 5 regs that I built the original car under I can do even more. As regards Ford engines it seems to have escaped every ones attention that an SCA Cosworth revved to 11000rpm approx and that BDG's put out 290bhp in the day. In fact there is almost no motor racing in NZ above club level, where you can modify a motor, the playing must always be kept level for the drivers poor little darlings. Motor sport in this country was built by people who fiddled about with engines and the cars they went in now obviously they are no longer needed.

[RogerH]

Roger so what you are saying that if I bring out the original Lotus that my dad parked up after only 3 months use back in the 50s I would be at a huge disadvantage yes or no???

On assumption that you didn't want to die using 50 year old tyres and replaced them with "new" period CR65 tyres, then you shouldn't be at a disadvantage. You may not have a car that would win but you would be mixing it in the pack.
While there are some cars that are producing more bhp and revs than period, the majority of the FJ cars running here put out very similar power today as they did in period. For example my Taraschi (1089cc Fiat) was last dynoed at 87bhp at 6700rpm and the period (1960) specs for the same car/engine recorded 86bhp at 6500rpm. My Lola (997cc 105E) was dynoed last year at 85.4bhp at 7632rpm while the period Cosworth MkIII 997cc 105E FJ engine is recorded at 85bhp at 7500rpm.

[RogerH]

What I find most annoying about comments like this is they are based on the assumption that every car is running under Schedule K. Nowhere in T&C is there anything to say I can,t double the horsepower of my motor. And if you go back to the original Group 5 regs that I built the original car under I can do even more. As regards Ford engines it seems to have escaped every ones attention that an SCA Cosworth revved to 11000rpm approx and that BDG's put out 290bhp in the day. In fact there is almost no motor racing in NZ above club level, where you can modify a motor, the playing must always be kept level for the drivers poor little darlings. Motor sport in this country was built by people who fiddled about with engines and the cars they went in now obviously they are no longer needed.

Dave, I think with this discussion there is a difference between the historic single seater/sports car regulations under Schedule K (which are essentially "as it was, so it shall be") and the T&C regulations under Schedule K which are more relaxed (essentially, if your car represents say, 1972, then if you can prove that your modification could be 1972 period then they are OK - I think they are referred to on the T&C regulations as "Period Variations". I'm talking about the former more restrictive category and I think you are talking about the more relaxed T&C regulations.

[Dave Silcock]

Dave, what did you have in mind for me, as you say, 'a carriage with more decorum'. Surely not a Jaguar!!!! I actually like driving the Mini, but not on the race track. As is usual, I like to do illegal things with it, like take it for a blast in the countryside round Cambridge and just listening to the howl of the gears. Don't need to be going very fast, just accelerating out of corners on traffic free roads. Music to the ears. I think the 'law' would take a dim view of my activities if they spotted me......'no lights Sir'......'No officer, it's daylight and I can see, even without my glasses!!!! I seem to be doing these anti-social things less and less these days. Actually the car is probably in better condition than some of the rubbish I see out there.....mostly of the turbo-charged Subaru variety, with the driver sittting on the floor. I'm sure I would get fined slightly more than the 13/6 I got stung for on the Leeston run!!!
So it seems from all your comments that it is me that is out of step here, and that the rest of you are having a hilarious time racing with your mates. Well bully for you. But I hope you are not trying to WIN, because that's what it sounds like to me, and that is NOT the spirit of Classic racing.
Attended the HD round of the Super-tourers yesterday, and the Guy at the back was definately NOT having FUN......and I got that straight from the horses mouth!!!!!!!

You have the answer to your problem in your own reply Gerald, do what ever is required to register your car and then you can drive it down to see Jim and listen to your gearbox to your hearts content, I would advise some rubber engine mounts however. That's why I built the Blue car as first and foremost as a road car. I made a big mistake putting in a roll cage as I can race it without one and could have taken my grand children for ride in the back seat. But I can go for a blast any time I like and man is it FUN!!!!!

[jim short]

No sorry Roger if I cant win I am out anyone want a Lotus going cheep

[Dave Silcock]

This is a great thread indeed, I will add a few thoughts if I may.

There seems to be as many different ideas on what racing, and especially "Historic" racing is all about. No doubt there are as many definitions as there is cars and drivers. Unfortunately NZ does not have the depth or number of truly Historic race cars for the number of people who want to be involved. This has lead to a vast number of 'Historic' race cars that are nothing more than new cars built using older body shells.
They may have anything from virtually new NASCAR engines and running gear, or Aust V8 underpinnings. My personal definition of an historic car, is one that has history, competing in the period it was first made. Ironically my own car, the ex Coppins Firebird is not eligible to compete in the Historic Muscle car class. That despite it having some very significant history, and being virtually identical to it's period configuration. But that doesn't worry me at all. I have seen too much crazy behaviour on the track. For those that are not aware, in the US, specifically the Monterey Historics, period history is required, and even then there is no guarantee of acceptance to compete. For those that do compete, and there is any on track contact, there is an immediate stand down, you're on the trailer and out of there, and a 13 month no return. You don't even get to go back the following year. They are running cars that have in some instances the past, sold for many millions of dollars, and they take the whole business very seriously.

At an event further East, there were grid starting positions, and pre determined finishing positions. Have all the fun you want, but come home in the correct order or you will be on the trailer. I believe there is a lot of fun to be had just be exercising the real historic cars.
Something like this:
I like to do illegal things with it, like take it for a blast in the countryside round Cambridge and just listening to the howl of the gears. Don't need to be going very fast, just accelerating out of corners on traffic free roads. Music to the ears.

We have all had fun on deserted roads, I suggest that those that need the thrill of competition, build a new race car and race in a points and reward series.
There seems to be enough different 'Historic' classes and series for the differing needs or desires of the various car owners. It's just a matter of finding the one that suits your particular wishes.

Bruce.

Bruce just exactly what point are you trying to make here? are you advocating us adopting the system you seem to admire from the US? That we actually fix the start and finishing positions. Who would want to participate our watch such a farce, unless it is just a lot millionaires showing how much money they have got.

[jim short]

In reply no 26Amco I am stunned NZs current v8 Champion calling the latest fastest racing we have ever seen ,,{good one Stu.}Super Tourers I mean hes raced Minis to Kenworths and proved himself beyond question {yes I know he takes after his Mum} but to call the latest toy a Hot Heavy piece of Sh..t,,, just loved the TV coverage man what a crowd??strange no one on the terrace that had plenty at the Roycroft meet.Both grandstands nealy half full !!!!but the tv shot I really enjoyed ,,I mean coming of a farm as a boy, and as the camera panned around there looked to be at least 30 black beef cattle on the hill at the back of the track just wonderfull bring on the Endurances races cant wait as most looked to be in calve

[Racer Rog]

Dave, Roger is correct, you can build your car to the old Group 5 spec's, as long as it meets schedule A requirements ( baring your Roll cage problems, and I believe that Crunch will be talking to you helping out with that issue) there is no reason that it won't be acceptable, you also should join the Classic Motor Racing club as well, we need a few more active members, if you are ever in need of a question answered, get hold of Crunch, and if he does not know, he has the resources to get an answer.
And Bruce, I would hate to see the NZ historic and Classic scene get to some of the lenghts that they do in the States, but what you have described is not that common thank god, and they do have have some good Historic racing, in the various groups SCCA, VERA , and a few others, and not all are run by Steve Earl!!
Roger

[AMCO72]

Jim, what the hell has endurance races got to do with cows being in calf. Are you hoping to see a cow or two giving birth while the race is in progress?? Was the racing so boring in the weekend that you were looking at pregnant cows rather than the cars?
I did not tape the meeting but was there in person, so didn't notice too many cows. The ST racing, was very definately RACING.....hard, fast, give no quarter type stuff, with most of NZ's top drivers in the hot seat. And that is definately what it was....a hot seat. After race one, my man was fitting an airconditioning system in the cockpit to keep temparatures below 120 degrees. These new machines are NOTHING like the old BNT V8's, which were quite friendly old girls in comparison. Actually I still enjoyed the NZ V8 race. There was some good racing, and PASSING........[wash your mouth out]. For some reason the ST's are very hot in the cabin, maybe the engine is further back, and the steering is unbelievably heavy, maybe because the tyres are about 2ft wide!!! And he was not having fun.......even the old 'McGintys truck was easier to drive!!!!
My mans comment was that they are a very 'physical' machine to drive, and for an endurance race even more so. He will have to spend some at the 'Jum/Jim/Gym pumping some iron, or he is going to colapse in a heap.

Goodness me, my innocent comment, at the start of this thread about having FUN, has really stirred up a hornets nest. But thats good, because although everyone has an opinion on these things, that opinion has never before been aired in such an open and frank way with other like-minded enthusiasts.

[Dave Silcock]

Dave, I think with this discussion there is a difference between the historic single seater/sports car regulations under Schedule K (which are essentially "as it was, so it shall be") and the T&C regulations under Schedule K which are more relaxed (essentially, if your car represents say, 1972, then if you can prove that your modification could be 1972 period then they are OK - I think they are referred to on the T&C regulations as "Period Variations". I'm talking about the former more restrictive category and I think you are talking about the more relaxed T&C regulations.
Roger, that's exactly the point I was making, and having just put the rule book down there is no mention of period variations, neither does it come [T&C that is] under Schedule K. It is a stand alone set of regulations. If you were to rely on Schedule K saloon cars I doubt that anyone could make up a grid of vehicles of any age. What I am against is using any technology or materials that were not available at the time.Eg carbon fiber or electronic injection. Some on here object to 6 pot calipers well the first Dunlop disc brakes had 6 pistons and 6 little brake pads on each one, so on needs to be careful when assuming something is new technology.

[RogerH]

Roger, that's exactly the point I was making, and having just put the rule book down there is no mention of period variations, neither does it come [T&C that is] under Schedule K. .

Have a look at the Manual (no.35) at page 486 and you will find :

“Period Variations” means variations carried out on that vehicle model, that were variations available in the era during which a vehicle model and/or its components were first used actively in motorsport competition, and

[AMCO72]

Dave, that is exactly as I had read it.......technology and materials AVAILABLE AT THE TIME..... Hence the Arden head we have on the Mini at the moment. Not only was this available at the time, but ours is THE actual head that was on the car in 1972, AND the twin Dellortos. The head was completely stuffed when Angus got it, and after vast expense is now up and running again. You might ask why go to all that expense and trouble when on a Mini you can get almost as much HP with an 5 port iron head, and probably more reliability. Well the answer is........I dont know. You will have to ask the man himself, but has to do with putting that car back to how it was originally. We have a little way to go, but as a genuine historic race car it is just about as close as you can go. Tony Mann's Sidchrome Imp is probably the best, most accurate rebuild I race with, and I guess there are others, but MOST of these old girls have had multiple body swaps, and dont even start me on engines and transmissions.
The thing is, if you are only going to have GENUINE cars out there, I can tell you the grids are going to be pretty thin.

[Dave Silcock]

You may be right I only have Manual 34 which I thought was the current one. I still have my doubts that I am going to fit into the prevailing sentiments expressed on here, just as well its such a good road car.

[jim short]

Amco look I can not spend so much time on here as you know I have a very busy life to lead.reread and you will note I said the tv was great and the panning of the camera {that means moving about}picked up some cattle ,,,the End. starts shortly and with luck there will be some little ones...now I didnt rubish the racing but have to wonder how many champions did drake mention 27>>I beleive so been cleened up by some 18yr, old no FUN I bet another 2 bob there was no FUN now we must not debate this modern activity on here

[AMCO72]

Yes, some wet-behind-the-ears kid........ Jim you gotta remember......every dog has his day....Woof woof!!!
I thought you was thinking of 'pan-frying' the cattle-beast, when you talked about 'panning'.
As a refined GENT, I am surprised at your busy work-load....but not too busy to ring me and chew my ear. Never mind I will probably do what Dave suggests and get a WOF for the Mini, then I can come down and have a coffee with you.....you should be good at making coffee, although somehow I cant picture you making flat-whites!!!!

[Bruce302]

Bruce just exactly what point are you trying to make here? are you advocating us adopting the system you seem to admire from the US? That we actually fix the start and finishing positions. Who would want to participate our watch such a farce, unless it is just a lot millionaires showing how much money they have got.

I'm not advocating anything, just pointing out that there are as many styles of historic racing as there are clubs etc. No one is forced to take part in anything that doesn't suit their preference. Right now in NZ there is something for everyone.
It's just a matter of finding the one that suits your particular wishes.

And Bruce, I would hate to see the NZ historic and Classic scene get to some of the lenghts that they do in the States, but what you have described is not that common thank god, and they do have have some good Historic racing, in the various groups SCCA, VERA , and a few others, and not all are run by Steve Earl!!
Roger
Indeed Roger, but don't forget that thanks to some of those enthusiastic people, and not all are millionaires, some very nice cars have been saved and preserved. They do not want then damaged or destroyed.
Think of the historic tin tops we do not have competing. The Coppins Camaro or Firebird, Fahey's Mustangs, PDL II, Red Dawson's Mustang, Camaro or Monza (admittedly it is in Aust) The Sidchrome Mustang, and the multitude of smaller but equally important cars. Many of these cars have parts that cannot be bought to replace any damaged in racing incidents. I certainly don't have the money to have new parts fabricated either.

By all means build new cars, make them as fast as you like. My personal opinion is that an historic race car is one with period history, prepared as it was in the day. No one likes to see them damaged or lost, so consequently they get pampered a little. Is there anything wrong with that ?

Bruce.

[jim short]

Strange just told Dave you would never wof the mini plus you forget I was a coffee cafe owner in my endevor to get Steph to UK.yes wet kid was kicked out yrs back!!!!

[Trevor Sheffield]

I for one have become confused by the comments on offer regarding current historic and or classic racing. Please, can an important point be defined. The word “race” defines the events in question, but is or is not this a point of fact?

(1) Given that not all cars in a “race”, because of unavoidable performance differences can not expect to win the “race”, do the drivers gain pleasure and have fun in finishing ahead of their nearst rival? Accepted that risk of damage becomes part of the equation.

(2) Given that they have no hope of winning, have many of the so called contestants, entered to simply show off a car and pretend to be a racing driver? In which event, they certainly are not experiencing a motor “race”.

Unless this situation is defined and agreed, surely there is no way forwards. :confused:

Trevor.

I tend to be a pragmatic sort of guy and it is apparent that this thread, specifically headed as above, is achieving very little as nothing has become defined. The intent of my post was hopefully to ensure that something specific and objective is recorded.

At this point the finishing order appears to be as follows, i.e. subject to further comment which hopefully will follow and will be suitably succinct. ;)

RogerH --- (1)
nzeder --- (1)
jim short --- Must presume --- (1)
Dave Silcock --- Must presume --- (1)
Sreve Holmes --- Must presume --- (1)

AMCO72 --- Must presume --- (2)
Racer Rog --- Must presume --- (2)
Bruce302 --- Must presume --- (2)

Many forums provide facilities for arranging a poll, but I can not find anything here. Please can we have more exact information recorded, so that the true true situation can be accurately established and confirmed. As a result I will then be able to progressively update the figures.

It would appear that there are some who do not wish to engage in a motor race as such and would be happy with an organised group run, around a racing circuit. Surely those within this category must fall outside a forum depicting motor racing, that is other than as interested commentators.

Non competitive events could be organised clear of the jurisdiction of MSNZ, on an economical basis with few hassles. There is evidence existing showing that combining such an event with a car show, could very well attract adequate paying spectators and prove a viable proposition.

Trevor.

[Racer Rog]

Trevor, I must admit I'm at a bit of a loss, to understand just what you want, Classic and Historic competitors do race, and we don't go with that modern form of racing that says "rubbing is racing" we tend to have more respect for our cars and fellow competitors, in as far as to where I come from , I guess I would be throwing my hand in with Roger Herrick on this, we do agree on a lot of things, but not all, most of us want to enjoy our form of racing, and I don't think anyone of us will be getting the call from a F1 team, and I would say that most want to put the car on the trailer at the end of a successful meeting in one piece, in as far as non competitive events, haven't been to one yet, and I have been around motor sport for about 45 years, not as long as some here, I guess I will be un competitive when they nail the lid on the box before they burn me up. As far as polls go, never trusted them, you can get any answer you like, depending on how you frame the questions, and can turn black into white. One of the big problems with any form of racing these days and not only motor sport, is that there are no simple rules, everything has to be Lawyer proof, and in motor sport, the only game in town as far as that goes is MSNZ, and even then they don't get it right all of the time, but they have the most robust systems and training of any other motoring organization, so to go back to a simpler way, you will need a direct line to the Dr and the Tardus.
Roger

[jim short]

I doubt that I will race again but never say never .have sugested to the Toyota Dealer that to have young Martin s grand father in there 2nd car could be good publicity !!So no more wine or rum dont drink much of that stuff anyway ,salards yogut ect running upto 200mtrs a day starting to look sharp

[RogerH]

I also don't quite know where Trevor's poll will get us but I'm pretty sure most historic competitors do race within the constraints that Roger E (Racer Rog) mentioned. We have to remember that our cars are old and have a value (some more than others), they often have irreplaceable components that you can't pick up at Repco. Additionally, they are inherently unsafe with no real crumple zones, built in side protection and in many cases roll protection. Taking all this into account I think the cars are generally raced hard with drivers understanding that you need to drive within limits and when these limits are breached I have seen some pretty heavy "talk" to the offending driver.
Getting on to the two options Trevor put forward - at least with historic/classic saloons there are opportunities for both categories. The racers can participate in the T&C type races and for those who just want to drive at speed on a circuit without getting involved in the "cut and thrust" there are series like the very popular (at least in Auckland) Classic Trials. Often new historic racers start out in Classic Trials and move onto T&C racing but others find the remaining in Classic Trials gives them enough fun. As long as you are happy and having fun then things are OK.

[AMCO72]

Jim, is a bit late for the salads and yoghurt. You should have thought about that all those years ago when you were crashing the gears on the International. Pies, sausage rolls, and bottles of Coke are definately not good for truck drivers. You have let yourself go my friend, and I'm afraid there is no return. As for running 200ms each day, well I ask you. You'll be having two knee replacements like me before long. But hey, you're a Bike Man. There is probably a good machine in the back shed left over from the bike shop, you know the one you reconditioned for Heke and he didn't pick it up. Bikes are much easier on the body, and with good tyre pressure should be able to support you! Would recommend a change of saddle though as I cant see you in bike-pants. Instead of me getting a WOF for the Mini, you could cycle up here and show me how to make a good cup of coffee.

[Dave Silcock]

Trevor, I must admit I'm at a bit of a loss, to understand just what you want, Classic and Historic competitors do race, and we don't go with that modern form of racing that says "rubbing is racing" we tend to have more respect for our cars and fellow competitors, in as far as to where I come from , I guess I would be throwing my hand in with Roger Herrick on this, we do agree on a lot of things, but not all, most of us want to enjoy our form of racing, and I don't think anyone of us will be getting the call from a F1 team, and I would say that most want to put the car on the trailer at the end of a successful meeting in one piece, in as far as non competitive events, haven't been to one yet, and I have been around motor sport for about 45 years, not as long as some here, I guess I will be un competitive when they nail the lid on the box before they burn me up. As far as polls go, never trusted them, you can get any answer you like, depending on how you frame the questions, and can turn black into white. One of the big problems with any form of racing these days and not only motor sport, is that there are no simple rules, everything has to be Lawyer proof, and in motor sport, the only game in town as far as that goes is MSNZ, and even then they don't get it right all of the time, but they have the most robust systems and training of any other motoring organization, so to go back to a simpler way, you will need a direct line to the Dr and the Tardus.
Roger

I have been giving this matter a lot of thought and in Paul on the road to Damacus moment have come with the perfect solution for these enlightened times we live in. I propose a two pronged course of action that will cause a paradigm shift in the way we interact with the community at large. All that will be required is a transponder and a suitable car to fit it to. Without any input from MSNZ, turn up at any race track in NZ on a test day and proceed to do as many laps as you are happy with. You will be able to wear the $1000 helmet you bought 10 years ago and have only worn twice, any roll cage you may or may not have, and any old seat belt as long as you have one. You can, already I'm sure, see the beautiful simplicity of this. Amco can come in after 3 laps because he is not enjoying himself and people like Jim can go round for as long as they like. With what ever electronic devise you have about your person you can instantly down load your times from My Laps. A decision can then be made at grass roots level and across the board as to wether further lappery is called for. At the end of the month a person skilled in matters of computing will collate this data from around the country and the winner will be posted on this very forum. This will be useful as the winner will not have to practise false modesty in front of his or her adoring fans. Like wise those who have a surfeit of time units, formerly known as slow, can retire to the bog to have a weep in the privacy of their own surrounded by the support of their loved ones. Those of you with genuine Historic cars won't have to worry about the dastardly new cars in old bodies. with the $10000 paint job lurking in the corners just so they can run into you There are spin offs as well, less fuel used both by the participants and as there are no spectators, none used to get to the track. I can see were the participant, competitor is so yesterday, who would normally need a bit of incentive, such as trying to catch, or even in some extremely immature cases, attempt to pass the car in front, would be at a disadvantage, but it is time these types were weeded out in any case.

[screwdriver]

Ironically Dave, it was only a few years ago that I proposed to run my car only at track days for the very reasons you state. The dated seat belt issue particularly, then the need for an MSNZ card (annual fee to be paid to MSNZ of course) if you had any rollover protection that intruded into the passenger compartment, or had full harness belts, was enough to put off anyone with a classic car in original condition who wanted to fit decent belts and a rudimentary roll protection without wrecking the originality of the car.

Taking the car off the road and buying a trailer and the attendant problems that entails, was the preferred and cheaper solution, than paying a rego fee for a car used for just 200 road Kms a year, (plus conforming to the farcical authority card system).

If you run a classic standard/slow/road car, you are not going to be working on it weekends, trying to extract a couple more HP as the car is NOT a race car. Your performance is relatively fixed, so you are on the track for one reason only. To drive it safely at a speed that would be considered illegal on the public road. Whether that is in a Classic Trial or a race series is merely a matter of choice unless you are too fast for the trials, which sensibly, have a (lap) speed limit.

[jim short]

Sorry about the delay Dave so many big words,I think you are onto something big here ,but listening to grand kids a play station can be set up without to much trouble, they come with a steering wheel ,or so they say and using a skite camera there is no end to the FUN we can have!!

[Dave Silcock]

I have just seen on reveiewing the above a serious flaw in my thinking. A switched on travel agent may wish to catch on to this new phenomeon and advertise an all complete tour of all the tracks in NZ in 10 weeks ,join and leave as you wish, all transport and video shots of you in action included. This may, and probably will, lead to a sense of comaraderie amongst the participants which undoubtably will lead to an excess of alcohol consumtion in the evenings with the end result that an out break of boastful exaggerated claims will ensue, previously known as lying , may break out, acommpanied by a general ribbing of the time unit challenged, formerly known as taking the piss. We at Personal Contest Racing, soon to be known as PC Racing will place a capitation levy on said companies to restrict this activity and fund our on going expenses to prevent any out break of the previous ridiculous situation where participants actually engaged in the archaic practise of pitting themselves in real time against others.

[AMCO72]

Dave, words fail me. What an amazing piece of writing. I didn't know you had it in you. I have read both pieces a dozen times just to get my head around the beautiful prose. Even included a bit of Biblical history to satisfy the Christians amongst us.
But.......'Many a true word spoken in jest'..... Your proposal has great merit, especially to old fuddy-duddies like me who dont enjoy 'motoracing' in the conventional sense. Heck, why didn't I think of that. Here am I chastising myself for not 'enjoying' racing, when everyone else is having so much fun it's nauseating, and the answer was staring me in the face. You know you would have made a great preacher, and if I didn't know better I would have said that you had a Christian upbringing.
Excuse me, but I just have to go and read it all again.

[Dave Silcock]

Gerald, clever of you to notice the Christian aspect of my latsest post, i was goin to say I had had a Paulian experience, but I thought it would be beyond the philistines on this site. I was brought up in a strict Baptist family which was several generations old and very, dancing will lead to vertical sex sort of stuff. I am appalled my Monty Pythonesque dissertations may be taken seriously! What have I done !

[markec]

He may have been doing some moonlighting in preparation for that outburst of"looking outside of the square" composing, Gerald.He's getting a bit soft, went home early today, either a bit cold or on a promise.

[Dave Silcock]

Mark, you could have said its been snowing all bloody day down here, but I am still astounded anybody wuold take these rantings seriously.

[Russ Noble]

There will always be those with differing views on how the grids and format of historic should be achieved,those with the faster cars seem to resent being put at the back of the grid or placed half a lap or so down. These days it is important to get bums on the seats at motorsport events,as the cost continue to climb it is becoming much more difficult for the young enthusiast to participate at anything other than club events, and that is getting too costly as well. So to create a spectacle for those who prefer to watch rather than participate, the racing needs to be entertaining.
This thread has been started to promote constructive comment.

Entertaining racing has got to be reverse grids. Seeing the faster cars/drivers work their way through from the back provides a much greater spectacle than the often processional 'racing' that tends to result from 'normal' grids.

If competitors leave 'racing room' , and strict penalties are applied to those that don't, there should be no problem. The slower cars need to be aware of faster cars behind them, and the faster cars need to recognise that they may not have been seen and that the slower car in front may well be going to take it's normal apex.

However, at some meetings, in the mix we have at least four variables.
We have original cars.
We have non original cars.
We have drivers that want to race, or challenge their own lap times/targets etc.
We have drivers that prefer more to parade their cars.

None of these four are mutually exclusive.

With regard to the drvers, if everyone leaves 'racing room' it can't be that hard to keep the cars apart. Admittedly there is always the possibility of the unforseen, but that's just a function of being on track. You can always get caught up in someone elses disaster, mechanical failure or whatever.

With regard to the cars, not everybody has the desire or funds to own a genuine car of a type they would like, so they build their replicas etc. Whilst it would be nice to keep originals in a class of their own, the reality at some meetings is that the replicas/look-a-likes are needed to pad out the grids. Much better for the spectators. And the drivers, I would think.

By and large spectators at classic/historic events, although they may have an appreciation of the genuine historic cars, care little whether the BDA Escort monstering a 289 Mustang are originals, dead nuts replicas or merely look-a-likes. The distinction is probably more appreciated by drivers and crews who have a more intimate knowledge of the various cars.

Either way, I see no reason why all these variables cannot be accomodated and I think reverse type grids should be the norm to provide entertaining and FUN classic racing. If some fast guys resent being put at the back of the grid, well tough, they can always get a slow car and be off the front!

[AMCO72]

Good evening Russ Noble. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting you so I don't know whether you are a 'bigtime' race car driver, or indead an X bigtime racecar driver. You write a very good letter which sounds very professional and knowledgable. I have looked up your profile, but it doesn't enlighten me at all as to your prowess as a driver. Could I just respectfully ask you.....do you, or have you raced in a Classic car race recently, and if so, what is the vehicle of your choice. Please forgive my ignorance in this matter, as at my age I have trouble recalling peoples names from the racing scene. Thanks.

[Oldfart]

Good evening Russ Noble. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting you so I don't know whether you are a 'bigtime' race car driver, or indead an X bigtime racecar driver. You write a very good letter which sounds very professional and knowledgable. I have looked up your profile, but it doesn't enlighten me at all as to your prowess as a driver. Could I just respectfully ask you.....do you, or have you raced in a Classic car race recently, and if so, what is the vehicle of your choice. Please forgive my ignorance in this matter, as at my age I have trouble recalling peoples names from the racing scene. Thanks.
Whether Russ is currently racing a classic, in my opinion does not matter. He is one of the NAMES from the "good old days"

[jim short]

Amco even I have heard of Russ {the good one}back in Bob Moores time and Jammie plus I think did a spell in record breaking cars at Bonniville??

[AMCO72]

Thats ok. You see you guys go back way beyond me. Jim are you talking about the world record breaker by the name of Noble. And
dont jump down my throat Jum.....I was only asking a civil question. This is not the 'Jim's Jag' thread where civility has gone out the window.

[nzeder]

Well great posts guys, I am new to your forum and I enjoying the banter already. Dave PC Racing....may it never catch on...hang on

Right back on topic I believe not one of us likes to classic and historic cars (or motorbikes for those of us that have a soft spot for 2 wheels too) damaged on the track so the "rubbing is racing" types need not apply. This is why I like classic/historic racing - different marque, models, historically significant cars out on the track driven as they should be and generally drivers given each other space as not to damage said vehicles.

Markec in the first post mentioned get more bums on seats watching the sport we love with a spectacle. So how does the sport do that given all the activities that seem to be around these days and gunning for our free time and the little disposable income we might have left. When I was in my 20's I was active in car club activities, 30's work took over.....now I just hit my 40's with a young family (I want more time on my cars, wife want another kid....??? I am a big enough kid for the whole family) time for me is limited. So that makes me think when I was in my 20's I like going to the track to watch and even race my first car - so I asked the young guy I have working for me what he gets up to. I am sure those older than me with kids in their 20's will know the answer. We went to track they go LAN parties??? Now I work in IT and I don't get it why would you want to join PC's together and play games for 48 hours. The young guy said but why race an old car that you have to work on before and after an event. For me the answer is simple it is mechanical and nothing like working with PCs.

So are we a dieing bred? What will classic racing look like in 20 years time when I am in my 60's will we still have F5000's, muscle cars from the 60-70's, under 3l saloons, sports & GTs. Cars today are seen more like a consumer appliance than a piece of engineering excellence + will the cars of the 90's and today be around or have people like us keeping them going - I hope not as modern cars are nice to drive but lack the character of a classic. I hope one of my kids will pickup the torch and enjoy classic cars and the track as much as I do.

[RGM]

As I thought this thread is interesting even with the wanderings from topic.
With reference to reverse grid races I am dead against them any one around inthe 80s at the club circuit series at Pukekohe will remember the horrendis crashes on the sweeper and on the back straight as the faster cars tried to come through on the first lap.
More recently at Manfield 2010 6 or 7 cars out in the first lap,racers are racers and once the flag drops the brain is often switched off and the red mist comes down.
Now handicap racing if done well it is entertaining to watch and most driver know what to expect and by the time it gets interesting they have settled and are aware of the blue flag and the faster cars coming through.

[AMCO72]

Fully with you there RGM. My experience with rev grids has not been a happy one. As I said somewhere else, the ONLY time rev grid works is when all the cars are of similar [read same] performance, and even there the usual is top-ten reverse.

[Oldfart]

Now I know I am somewhat of an oddity (before anyone else said it) but my "just turned 22 year old" is chasing round the UK watching race meetings. So far, apart from the need to see F1, he has stated that historics are way more interesting, so I think NZeder that there is hope. Those cars which we thought were lost for all time are still being found, I suspect we will have plenty of cool things to look at from the safety of our zimmer frames. Being the size he is, he won't fit in my cars, then again has a somewhat better budget so I am waiting to see what he comes up with. And the seat can always go forward!
I think we currently have a number, like me, who could not persuade the family accountant that going racing was an option, and they are now trying to live the dream. Most of us did the "club thing" and gymkhanas, grasstrack, hillclimbs were what we could do. I guess that I was not alone in doing 50+ club events over a 2 year period with our road cars, even if it had already done a couple of Heatway rallies as mine had.
Those, like Jim, Bob H, the Rogers, etc who have taken part over the years have a slightly different slant. For many of those like me, just being out there is the buzz, and the older I get, I am sure that the faster I was.

[Russ Noble]

Good evening Russ Noble. I haven't had the pleasure of meeting you so I don't know whether you are a 'bigtime' race car driver, or indead an X bigtime racecar driver. You write a very good letter which sounds very professional and knowledgable. I have looked up your profile, but it doesn't enlighten me at all as to your prowess as a driver. Could I just respectfully ask you.....do you, or have you raced in a Classic car race recently, and if so, what is the vehicle of your choice. Please forgive my ignorance in this matter, as at my age I have trouble recalling peoples names from the racing scene. Thanks.

Have dabbled in the past, in the 70's BT18, BT21A, Noble Sports. In the 80's FFHustler, RF73. But never at Bonneville. Currently have a GT40 look-a-like that went OK in Classics, Sports & GT . As a matter of interest often in the scratch races I would start off the back of the grid anyway. More fun for me and good for the spectators. Don't think I took anyone out on the way through....

Lets face it, in reverse grid races everyone starts at the same time, the only 'disadvantage' is the distance back on the grid and there is the whole race to get through to the front. Guys that get the red mist in the first corner will cause problems elsewhere anyway and should be spoken to, and if they don't fall in line should be banned. There is no need for that sort of shit at this level.

GT40 is out of action at present so have just bought an RF92 (not eligible for classics) to have a bit of fun in SIFF races this season

[AMCO72]

Thanks for your reply Russ. Now I know where you are coming from.
Incidently going on from what I said. It would be handy if forum members could fill in their profiles so we can all appreciate what they have done. I got ticked off by a forum member for not filling in mine, not that there was much to say, but at least you can now find out a bit of my background should you so desire.

[jim short]

Better still ask me that way you will get a better picture .I have known him when he was milking cows

[Russ Noble]

I think we currently have a number, like me, who could not persuade the family accountant that going racing was an option, and they are now trying to live the dream. Most of us did the "club thing" and gymkhanas, grasstrack, hillclimbs were what we could do. I guess that I was not alone in doing 50+ club events over a 2 year period with our road cars,.

Nope, not alone, in the 60's I had an ex Post Office Hillman Minx I bought as a write off, did all that you mentioned plus Tahuna Beach racing, rallies, and trials. Over a couple of years it sprouted disc brakes, home modified downported head, twin Webers, 1905cc shortblock, uprated springs, Konis, roof spot, also got the first set of SP44s that came into Chch. I was a draughting cadet on a pretty minimal salary and I soon found trials/rallies were quite expensive to do and thought I would get better bang for the bucks (always a consideration) going motor racing. In the late 60s the Minx became the tow vehicle and I bought my first single seater. Valour Ford 1500 pushrod. Certainly fun times.

[Russ Noble]

Better still ask me that way you will get a better picture .I have known him when he was milking cows

You must have been the person who said "Watch that one, it kicks" Just as I was picking myself up off the ground

[bob homewood]

Interesting comment on the down port head Russ ,plenty of people know you can down port the Ford 105E type heads ,but its possible to do a similar thing with the Rootes head

[Russ Noble]

The Rootes heads are similar construction to the Ford. Although if I were to do it again, I would seriously look at the alloy Rapier/Hunter head. Cost and availability ruled out the Rapier head at the time. Plus I wasn't 100% certain that it would be successful. The Hunter hadn't been invented then....

[bob homewood]

Yes I did one a long time ago ,it worked out ok ,I have a funny idea I used the Ford Anglia inlet manifolds and welded and redrilled the flanges ,too long ago now ,I know I also stroked the crank by getting it hard chromed ,every one said it wouldn't work but it did ,I think I used something like Perkins 4/99 big end shells on it

[Parnelli]

Have dabbled in the past, in the 70's BT18, BT21A, Noble Sports. In the 80's FFHustler, RF73. But never at Bonneville. Currently have a GT40 look-a-like that went OK in Classics, Sports & GT . As a matter of interest often in the scratch races I would start off the back of the grid anyway. More fun for me and good for the spectators. Don't think I took anyone out on the way through....

Lets face it, in reverse grid races everyone starts at the same time, the only 'disadvantage' is the distance back on the grid and there is the whole race to get through to the front. Guys that get the red mist in the first corner will cause problems elsewhere anyway and should be spoken to, and if they don't fall in line should be banned. There is no need for that sort of shit at this level.

GT40 is out of action at present so have just bought an RF92 (not eligible for classics) to have a bit of fun in SIFF races this season

Hi Russ, Welcome aboard the forum. It’s great to have you here. Members can catch up with some of Russ’s resent endeavors on GT40;s.com – kiwi scratchbuilt. A fantastic effort and an extremely professional diary of his build and subsequent race development. I too, have never meet Russ , but have come to appreciate his and Lim’s dedication and enthusiasm . Russ, I couldn’t agree more with your comments on Driver’s attitude when participating in reverse grid races. Yes, reverse grid races are best applicable to similar performance cars but have been run successfully by PMC’s for years now ( in conjunction with Handicap races ) with virtually no damage resulting. It all comes down to Driver attitude. And don’t both make for entertaining viewing and enjoyable racing. As I suggested , this was perfectly displayed last weekend at the Supertourer’s meeting where they ran spectacular reverse grid and handicap races.

[Russ Noble]

More recently at Manfield 2010 6 or 7 cars out in the first lap,racers are racers and once the flag drops the brain is often switched off and the red mist comes down.
Now handicap racing if done well it is entertaining to watch and most driver know what to expect and by the time it gets interesting they have settled and are aware of the blue flag and the faster cars coming through.

OK, I'll go along with that. Just means that someone has to be available to work out the handicapping rather than just post the grid straight up off the computer.

Certainly good for the spectators and it should spread the winners around a bit more too, which is good for the whole field. Virtually anyone could win with a modicum of luck and the odd favorable handicap.

Could I also suggest that although handicapping is worked out generally on lap times, that genuine historic cars be handicapped more favourably than similar replicas etc. This should give the guys with the true documented historics the chance to shine. Which is really what its all about.

OK, I know that could cause a bit of angst with some competitors, but as intimated by someone earlier, why should a guy in a valuable historic car go hard, wheel to wheel with someone in a similar replica that does not have the same value or pedigree? Anyone objects, maybe they'd be better suited to the club racing scene or just run something in Tier 1.......

Think I better duck away and put my Nomex on.......

[AMCO72]

Russ, I would be all for your paragraph 3. I could start off the front of the grid in my genuine historic car and SHINE.. maybe even, shock horror,......win!!!! However, suppose that Genuine Historic car was driven by an X Tier 1 champion. I dont think the rest of the field would take too kindly to him being in such an advantageous position. I have a sneaky suspicion that some of them are a bit nervous of his presence on a Historic grid in the first place, and their thinking would be that he can start off the back, and then some. He should be, and probably is the most wide awake driver in the pack, because of his experience in close doorhandle-to doorhandle racing. Unfortunately there are some drivers who are not awake, and may execute moves that my man wont anticipate, or are contrary to what is the norm, and there could be a 'coming together'! I realize that this situation is not the norm, but it can, and does happen.......the AMCO Mini.

Could I just at this point say thank you for your detailed and interesting profile. I knew when I was reading your post, about No 80 on the previous page, that I was reading about someone who knew the business of Classic racing very well. I must have had my head in the sand, because I could not recall your name. I'm sure my Man, mentioned above will be chastising me for being so thick when he recovers from his first ST drive!!!

[Dave Silcock]

I am unable to come to terms with the assumption that a non historic car is more likely to cause damage to a fellow competitors car. In my case I have spent the last 12 years building it and the paint alone cost 10000 dollars, why would I wish to drive in close proximity to a car, whilst being "historic", is probably not as well presented as mine. Indeed it probably could'nt be given it has been raced by various owners who back in the day cared not one iota about its history or originality. You know the boxed guards on Mustangs the engine set back ect ect. and in fact it is going to cost the same to repair a "new" car as it is the "historic". As I have already stated on this forum I drive cars not history and would not pay anymore for a car with a so called history than it would cost me to build the same thing afresh.

[screwdriver]

Once again, I totally agree with Dave's post. There are replicas around that cost the owners far, far more than the 'genuine' historics and I have never bought into the argument that they should be banned.

Why should we be denied the spectacle of a GT40, Cobra, C-Type, D-Type Jag running, even if they are replicas?

As for AMCO's comment - having been cleanly overtaken by said number one driver, it is no problem. In any handicap race, ALL drivers other than the scratch guy will be watching their mirrors - and if they don't, then a polite word to the series convenor usually results in a better awareness, to the mutual satisfaction of all concerned, but occasional panel damage is inevitable on a track and often through no fault of the driver.

I remember well Chris Watson's TR5 (not with Chris at the wheel) upending itself at the esses at Pukekohe, when the propshaft let go and another TR6 (what is it with Triumphs?) when a stub axle failed and a following car smacked into the concrete avoiding the car that was spinning on its roof at the 'mountain'.

That is motor racing and accidents will happen.

If the drivers vote to allow a replica into a series, then all is well. There are so many 'fake' Lotus Cortinas, Mini Cooper 'S' and Capri Perana's around anyway, I don't know what the fuss is about, as any Appendix K or Schedule K cars can run if they wish, but attempts to run them as a specific class in NZ have generally failed, as the performances vary so much from make to make anyway.

[Racer Rog]

I personally don't have a problem with replica's, as long as they are that, same as, same as, as opposed to a look a like, two different animals in my book, in sports cars and sports racing car's, it is possible to build a retrospective special, as long as parts are used are period, and quite frankly there is so much scope in doing this, I don't know why more people don't go down this route, maybe people are to lazy, don't have the talent any more, people go on about the NZ specials of way back, on a whole they were pieces of shit, to see some of those cars today, the original builders would not recognize them, the reason being, they were never really built to last, and today, with machining and tooling improvements and the materials that we can work with, are light years ahead of what they had back then, but it does sadden me. that people appear no longer to be interested in building a special, have we lost those basic skills, just think what if Ralph Watson was a young man in this age, what would he be doing, hopefully not playing computer games, which appears to be the bent of the younger generation.
Roger

[RogerH]

There is considerable discussion going on in Australian historic circles following a crash at the Philip Island 2012 Historics in the mixed FF and FJ grid. In Australia they have grid positions based on qualifying with no subsequent grid adjustments (unlike here where if someone laps quicker during a race they will usually be elevated on the grid for the next race).

The Australian system often results in faster cars, that for some reason qualified slow, having to come through the grid in each race - this was the result :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVEQD1G6TMY

Now see it closer up :

\http://www.motorsportretro.com/2012/03/phillip-island-classic-crash/

[Dave Silcock]

I personally don't have a problem with replica's, as long as they are that, same as, same as, as opposed to a look a like, two different animals in my book, in sports cars and sports racing car's, it is possible to build a retrospective special, as long as parts are used are period, and quite frankly there is so much scope in doing this, I don't know why more people don't go down this route, maybe people are to lazy, don't have the talent any more, people go on about the NZ specials of way back, on a whole they were pieces of shit, to see some of those cars today, the original builders would not recognize them, the reason being, they were never really built to last, and today, with machining and tooling improvements and the materials that we can work with, are light years ahead of what they had back then, but it does sadden me. that people appear no longer to be interested in building a special, have we lost those basic skills, just think what if Ralph Watson was a young man in this age, what would he be doing, hopefully not playing computer games, which appears to be the bent of the younger generation.
Roger

I still can"t get my head around why you call these cars ,and i'm talking saloon cars, replicas. One of my favorite cars, probably because when I was young and impressionable I drove one in a 3 hour race, is the 67 notch back Mustang. If I purchased one of the many available on Trade me and built a 289ci motor with Webers and a top loader 4 speed with 7 or 8 inch wide 15 inch American Racing wheels, how is this car a replica? Likewise my Mk2, the body of which,was not even built by Jaguar, but by Pressed Steel, how can it be a replica of a Mk 2?

[Oldfart]

Roger, I am one who supports the concepts of specials to the hilt. Now please tell me,where, under Motorsport NZ classes you would make use of such a car.

[Russ Noble]

Rhys, my car is a special, built under MSNZ Schedule CR for Retrospective Specials. It has a MSNZ COD and I race it in Classics Sports/GT.

At club meetings I can also race it in club saloon races. It is multi facetted. I researched all this and cleared a lot of things with MSNZ before I built it. It has been built on a super tight budget and gives good bang for the bucks. As Dave said there is a lot of scope in Sched. CR.

If you want to run in Tier 1, I don't think there is anything to stop anyone building their own FF for instance, it's been done in the past. Depends whether you think that would be a special..... Most of the other current classes pretty much preclude that sort of thing I think. You've got to follow the money trail there....

Now if someone had a wrecked WRX or similar and wanted to build a spaceframe or mono special from that then I guess club racing, hillclimbs, bent sprints etc would be the limit. Which is what most of the old specials did. But some could also do Gold Star Races etc. Not much chance of a special running in our premier single seater series these days!

I guess you could build a Sports Racing Car and run in one of the NI Sports car classes....

[Steve Emson]

Interesting discussions on here. I raced in historic group N here in Brisbane in the late 90's and early 00's. I was actually the group manager and convinced CAMS to sanction the class as a CAMS Championship here in QLD. I also devised the "Queensland Cup" so that the other class cars had a chance to win that overall trophy.
Getting the cars out of the sheds to race was very difficult. I did a lot of fast talking to get this stuff off the ground. Previous to this the cars ran in the clubcar races. I talked the Lakeside and Queensland raceway folk to let us have our own races.
It grew quite big after a few years.
I think i know the real cars vrs the replica car thing quite well. The big thing here was the huge speed differential in the cars. My car, Ford Falcon GTHO phase 3 replica, was then the fastest car in QLD.
The problem was that it was lapping the small cars after 3 laps of Lakeside. This meant in a 8-12 lap race, a huge speed differential.For those of you who know Lakeside the Falcon was doing 143mph (231kph) through the left had kink on the front straight. I cannot tell you how many times the lapped cards did not know i was there and changed line. I was fully on the grass at those sorts of speeds at least 5 times that I remember with a chill up my back.
Reverse grid was a little better but those other guys did not realise that the Falcon around that track was drifting from one side of the track to the other in the curves/corners because of the speed it was carrying down the straights.You could not change line once you were in there. I suspect some of you will not get what I am trying to explain, but some of you certainly will. Yes, you can say drive to the conditions, slow down, we aren't racing for sheep stations, winning isn't important etc etc. You know what is important,........having fun and driving your car the best you can possibly drive it. To me that is what historics is all about.
So, what I am getting at in my own experience, is the speed differential of these cars at that time was extremely dangerous. With bigger grids the cars were split which was good.
We still had drivers who, at some stage came from what they thought was the 'big time' back to this class of racing. Some of them thought 'rubbin is racing' was something real, not a movie bullcrap line. It upset a lot of other drivers when the body damage started happening. I know I was certainly annoyed about that.
I bought my son Brett, the last XU1 to score championship points in the Aust Touring car Championship. It was a real group C car!! I had him racing against these "hotshots" with piece of sh#@ replicas who were not afraid to serve him up. So I know that side of the coin as well.
Historic racing over here became for keeps mostly. Guys just wanted to win. This talk about gentleman behaviour was bull. Most of the outright cars were no holes barred Millionaires toys. And many of these guys were not short of a quid. But that is motorsport my friends. It was always about this even in NZ in the 60's and 70's. Those will seemingly unlimited funds, and then the rest of us.
Historics is a great class, and i really enjoyed racing in it. I wish everyone all the best, and make sure you enjoy yourselves at whatever level you wish to compete at.

[Dave Silcock]

Steve mate you have just shot your self in the foot. You go on about how fast your replica Falcon was and how difficult it was to drive around the normal competitors, i put it to you ,you were the problem not them. If your, dare i say it replica, was that fast surely you could have stroked it a bit to give every one a break. Then you talk of the car you bought your son having to compete with" piece of shit replicas" Hello where are we at here?

[RogerH]

The issue is not whether you can build a retrospective special or a replica under Schedule CR but where you can end up racing it. A number of historic and classic events (such as the likes of the Chris Amon Festival and the forthcoming Denny Hulme Festival) will not accept most CR cars.
With the issue that Dave raises in post #102, I think there is a difference between an existing period car (say a Mini 850) that is built up to replicate a Mini Cooper S and a car like a Cobra replica which effectively starts from nothing to do with a period car. Some events will accept the "replica" Cooper S but not the likes newly built "Cobra" or "GT40".

[Russ Noble]

The issue is not whether you can build a retrospective special or a replica under Schedule CR but where you can end up racing it. A number of historic and classic events (such as the likes of the Chris Amon Festival and the forthcoming Denny Hulme Festival) will not accept most CR cars.

Who cares, there's plenty of other places they can be raced. In the SI anyway. It's their loss not mine. They may not view it that way of course....

In the NI life seems to be different on many levels. That's why I refuse to live there.

Generally I will run my car wherever I can, wherever they will accept my entry, Classics, Club Saloons, OSCA. I haven't been refused yet. I can get more racing than I can cope with. Some classes have asked me to run with them, even though I don't strictly qualify. The car is a crowd pleaser and I think gives good value to the organisers.

Horses for courses...

[Dave Silcock]

I'm with you on that one Russ, it's a pity most of the good circuits are up there, bugger!

[Russ Noble]

Dunno, I love both Ruapuna and Teretonga. Not so keen on Levels these days tho.....

[jim short]

Russ you are repeating what I comented on way back I ran my NZ built sport car 7 times always invited always welcome down there sadly 1st time at a taccoc meet half way through the day ,Please Jim can you go and explain to Stan as to what make of car it is??? Bob Moore as an example used to ask why do you go all the way down south each yr,>then his sons transfered to Dunedin and shouted him down to the SFOS . He couldnt wait to talk about just how differnt down there was, one yr 17 cars came all the way from the USA and not one wished to go to Auckiand For such a small country its rather sad,I dont know the ans..is it snobery jellous stupidity or egos????

[nzeder]

I think the schedule CR rules have a good scope to build a retrospective car and have thought about this a number of times over years. There is a lot of scope to build a period retrospective special and I am surprised not more have not gone down this path. I guess maybe like me that we have too much $$ in out existing projects. If I knew I could build a retrospective special and have a class to run in I would do it in heart beat. I have had this idea in the back of my mind for a long time of what I would build - just need to find/purchase period plans for a single seater chassis design that would suit the engine I have in mind.

[Steve Emson]

Steve mate you have just shot your self in the foot. You go on about how fast your replica Falcon was and how difficult it was to drive around the normal competitors, i put it to you ,you were the problem not them. If your, dare i say it replica, was that fast surely you could have stroked it a bit to give every one a break. Then you talk of the car you bought your son having to compete with" piece of shit replicas" Hello where are we at here?

Hi Dave,
I thought what I was saying is the speed differential was the problem. That group NC falcon should not have been in the same race as the other cars. I was just driving it as quickly as I could in the first few laps because it was costing an arm and a leg to run it, so you want to enjoy yourself. Of course i wasn't doing lap record pace once I was in traffic. But don't also forget that I was racing for a Qld State Title, so I at least had to drive the silly thing. It was a replica- no big deal
The other point you raised, about the XU1's, Some of the competitors I am talking about came back from group A or V8 supercars as they are now,and other forms of motorsport as well,and just wanted to win. Some of these cars were very ordinary in appearance and they were quite prepared to drive into you car. Panel damage was very common, with guys pushing each other around.
I can identify with the guy with a Lotus Cortina or whatever. Do you really want someone driving their Torana S into you lightweight Alloy door?
There is a problem in this type of racing isn't there. I don't know what they do now, because I parked that falcon in my shed and never drove it again. It was because I simply did not enjoy all the crap that goes on in this type of racing. As the group manager in this class at the time i spent a huge amount of time getting things done for historics and the competitors. That part I enjoyed and I should make it clear that we all got on.
Some people think that you should drive at some gentleman pace in this class and be happy with that. Other people want to drive the way these cars were suppose to be driven. The two camps will never agree.
The falcon is a very well known car and gave a lot of people pleasure watching it, not only when I had it but when the previous owner Lloyd Bax owned it. LLoyd made this car a bit of a legend whilst he had it. Lloyd also became one of my best friends and built another car to try and beat the falcon. Unfortunately LLoyd (another Kiwi) is no longer with us.
With the XU1 guys reported to be spending up to $30,000 on an engine, the whole class turned to rubbish. They were getting HUGE horsepower from these cars.
Anyway, I obviously have not expressed myself very well on here.
Dave, the real problem was also Lakeside itself. If you have driven around there (you possibility have)you would know there are blind parts of the track and only 1 fast line around it. Also there is really only one viable passing point.
Hello where are we here?
What is your point? The falcon was a replica.It was quicker around Lakeside than any other XY Falcon ever has been, including big Petes super Falcon. It should have been in a NC only race, but that was impossible.
The XU1 was a real car with history. Brett raced them as it was in the 70's and did very well. he had the respect of all the other drivers because he was having a big go and was a tough guy to beat. He was only a kid just out of high school. He did not have the HP they had, maybe 100hp less than them.
So I have both ends of the spectrum covered as a car owner. I didn't say anything about replicas vrs real. My point is if your are going to spend $3,000 approx to do about 20 odd laps at a meeting, you had better enjoy yourself!
If you are going to go out in a CAMS Championship round, drive the thing as best as you can. That is the only reward.
Replicas, real cars, who cares. What you said about Mustangs Dave, you are right.

[Russ Noble]

Russ you are repeating what I comented on way back I ran my NZ built sport car 7 times always invited always welcome down there sadly 1st time at a taccoc meet half way through the day ,Please Jim can you go and explain to Stan as to what make of car it is??? Bob Moore as an example used to ask why do you go all the way down south each yr,>then his sons transfered to Dunedin and shouted him down to the SFOS . He couldnt wait to talk about just how differnt down there was, one yr 17 cars came all the way from the USA and not one wished to go to Auckiand For such a small country its rather sad,I dont know the ans..is it snobery jellous stupidity or egos????

Why that is? Is a tough one Jim.

I think it's a lifestyle, population, economic thing. There are more people, money, cars, opportunities up there. But to most South Islanders it'd be the last place they'd want to live. Classics/historics is a sort of a time warp class and I think there are so many cars up north the organisers can be more choosey with whom they invite and these of course tend to be the genuine time warp cars. I have been told if you know the right people you might have a better chance of getting an otherwise 'less desirable' car accepted.

I think too, the cars are different between the islands. A lot of the classics down here (not talking about the genuine historics) are 'improved' and that seems to be the norm and noone argues or turns up their nose at them.

I may have this wrong but I think down here guys like to race their Porsches, Escorts, Camaros et al because they love that era of car. But they treat them more as a sort of a time warp club car and are always looking to make improvements. That's the nature of motor racing and it's what they would have done had they been racing them when they were newer.

I don't think a lot of them really want to be forced into a rigid specification, they want to apply improvements which they can maybe engineer themselves or adapt from something else. It's something NZers have always done and South Islanders at least are still doing. Have a look at the lap times of some cars, the same car/driver combos now and say 5 years ago. With some its night and day, and its not the difference in the driving. I have no problem with this it's motor racing , it's the quest for constant improvement. The cars are more of a spectacle for the public and the drivers are happy. Everyone's happy.

Except maybe some of those from the other Island. Why that is? I don't know.

[Steve Emson]

You know I probably did not fully appreciate the heat in your replica posts. Replicas are welcomed with open arms in Qld.They are the main stay of the healthy fields.
You guys in NZ obviously have very strong views about this. Sorry I should have stayed out.

[Bruce302]

You know I probably did not fully appreciate the heat in your replica posts. Replicas are welcomed with open arms in Qld.They are the main stay of the healthy fields.
You guys in NZ obviously have very strong views about this. Sorry I should have stayed out.

Don't apologize Steve, You have added some extra points to the discussion. In case my thoughts earlier were misunderstood, I am not against replica or recent build classic racers. I have a friend who runs a 468 inch Pontiac against Porsches, Mustangs and Mopars in Europe, most it seems are similar recent build classics. I have friends who run genuine period correct racers with period history but they do not accept recent build cars. It is a purist thing and they get their kicks out of being sticklers for detail. Their choice, and I respect each camp. Both race hard, but cleanly.

I have restored my car to 1973 spec. it would have 1973 style hp, it would never win any race against a recent build car so i'd better have fun out there. And I will. It doesn't mean i'm driving like my granny, just this one car I am wanting to preserve.
Alternately I could, for less money and trouble, build a replica that looks identical, but with a new drive train, and could be driven as hard as required. The original would stay in the garage.
Look at the Bowden collection, Great cars, preserved and thankfully they will be for a long time. It is a pity they dn't get taken out as often as they could be, but seeing some of the racing in Aust, I can't blame them.

Dave, if you have a 10K paint job, I'll line up next to you on the grid any day. But is it really a Jag ?

Bruce.

[Racer Rog]

I think you must get the drift now, Schedule CR, The Classic Motor Racing Club will accept these vehicles, they are in fact one of the foundation stones of the club, but unfortunately, I think that there has only been one built in the last couple of years, and that was by Louise Clearwater, there is a problem with saloon cars, and this is being addressed by the Historic Commission, and as most of you realize, it will take careful work to build the frame work for this, for the concept is "as it was, so it shall be" examples of what not to do, is the pinto block Cosworth in Escorts, it is a can of worms, aqnd I liked a quote from an Australian, when talking about Holden XU1's "{ Its one of the 3500 known survivors of the 1500 built" ( don't take my numbers as gospel as I just can't remember the correct figures, but you can see where its going) so to get the policy correct and in place before every one starts whinnying on it will take a bit of time and talking with people to get it right, as I think it would be fair to say that some of the early CoD's, would not stand up again today.
Dave, a saloon car replica, in my book any way, is one which was not done in the period where it was current, eg a car that was built in the 70's with race history, as opposed to a car that is the same, but was built yesterday, there is no difference in the material in the cars, but one is the real McCoy, and not Bruce.
Roger


Roger, I am one who supports the concepts of specials to the hilt. Now please tell me,where, under Motorsport NZ classes you would make use of such a car.

[Oldfart]

I think that several have "hit the nail...."
In the mainland (and that's where my heart is) things are different, and especially differ from much of what happens on the northernmost circuits, not to understate the attitude of many administrators.
If only people up here would pick a period for their car, and then be honest and true to that there would be less angst.
Special building in the past tended to be low budget as "proper" cars were expensive and only(or mainly) the car dealers with their trade ins had access to cars for racing. I am of course talking late 50s, 60's in the main.
Specials were cobbled up from all sorts of stuff from the local wreckers or your crashed road car. You only have to look at the recipe for the BCM on the Tahunanui thread to see where I am coming from.
To me specials also implies Sports or single seaters. Now at least in the single seaters the 2 opportunities would be Formula Ford or Formula Vee/First. In one case unless you want to have the corners knocked off your car on a regular basis you could take part, just shoot down to the nearest wreckers to get a transaxle and a useful crossflow, a bundle of tube, make some uprights and you are halfway there. Insert Tui ad here.
The other is more achievable, perhaps.
The sports car series has got out of hand. $200000 cars can be purchased from Queenstown area. So much out of hand that even the organisers are promoting a "low key" series of events, in the attempt to get some of the cars that around 3 years ago were competitive out again and the fields are not promising.
I have taken part in Targa a fair few times and even the classic class there is, IMHO, a sham. Our car used all period parts, our competition had Jericho boxes, LS2 engines, Zetec Escorts, etc etc and were still dated by their owners as 196?/197? cars. In the spirit of the event the organisers take the owners' word. Are they classics, in my belief absolutely NO. The vintage movement dates by the newest of the major components, ie engine or chassis/body. Many also believe it should include transmission.
So where would this leave an imaginary A35 with Datsun motor, 5 speed gearbox and 8" wide Minilites? It would be a fun car, but...
Locost sports cars have been built by large numbers, the Constructors Car Club and Sports Car Club of NZ flourish, but few of their members use their specials as race cars, track days etc yes, and perhaps this where the future is. It would certainly appear so in the UK. Few spectators, heaps of track time and go when you want.

[Dave Silcock]

Don't apologize Steve, You have added some extra points to the discussion. In case my thoughts earlier were misunderstood, I am not against replica or recent build classic racers. I have a friend who runs a 468 inch Pontiac against Porsches, Mustangs and Mopars in Europe, most it seems are similar recent build classics. I have friends who run genuine period correct racers with period history but they do not accept recent build cars. It is a purist thing and they get their kicks out of being sticklers for detail. Their choice, and I respect each camp. Both race hard, but cleanly.

I have restored my car to 1973 spec. it would have 1973 style hp, it would never win any race against a recent build car so i'd better have fun out there. And I will. It doesn't mean i'm driving like my granny, just this one car I am wanting to preserve.
Alternately I could, for less money and trouble, build a replica that looks identical, but with a new drive train, and could be driven as hard as required. The original would stay in the garage.
Look at the Bowden collection, Great cars, preserved and thankfully they will be for a long time. It is a pity they dn't get taken out as often as they could be, but seeing some of the racing in Aust, I can't blame them.

Dave, if you have a 10K paint job, I'll line up next to you on the grid any day. But is it really a Jag ?

Bruce.
i can't really think what else it is Bruce, apart from the obvious intake and exhaust systems, the only parts not Jaguar are the power steering. As I have raced one of these cars in my youth,I know for sure an old man in his 70th year would not be capable of more than a few laps at reacing speed.
Dave.

[Dave Silcock]

Hi Dave,
I thought what I was saying is the speed differential was the problem. That group NC falcon should not have been in the same race as the other cars. I was just driving it as quickly as I could in the first few laps because it was costing an arm and a leg to run it, so you want to enjoy yourself. Of course i wasn't doing lap record pace once I was in traffic. But don't also forget that I was racing for a Qld State Title, so I at least had to drive the silly thing. It was a replica- no big deal
The other point you raised, about the XU1's, Some of the competitors I am talking about came back from group A or V8 supercars as they are now,and other forms of motorsport as well,and just wanted to win. Some of these cars were very ordinary in appearance and they were quite prepared to drive into you car. Panel damage was very common, with guys pushing each other around.
I can identify with the guy with a Lotus Cortina or whatever. Do you really want someone driving their Torana S into you lightweight Alloy door?
There is a problem in this type of racing isn't there. I don't know what they do now, because I parked that falcon in my shed and never drove it again. It was because I simply did not enjoy all the crap that goes on in this type of racing. As the group manager in this class at the time i spent a huge amount of time getting things done for historics and the competitors. That part I enjoyed and I should make it clear that we all got on.
Some people think that you should drive at some gentleman pace in this class and be happy with that. Other people want to drive the way these cars were suppose to be driven. The two camps will never agree.
The falcon is a very well known car and gave a lot of people pleasure watching it, not only when I had it but when the previous owner Lloyd Bax owned it. LLoyd made this car a bit of a legend whilst he had it. Lloyd also became one of my best friends and built another car to try and beat the falcon. Unfortunately LLoyd (another Kiwi) is no longer with us.
With the XU1 guys reported to be spending up to $30,000 on an engine, the whole class turned to rubbish. They were getting HUGE horsepower from these cars.
Anyway, I obviously have not expressed myself very well on here.
Dave, the real problem was also Lakeside itself. If you have driven around there (you possibility have)you would know there are blind parts of the track and only 1 fast line around it. Also there is really only one viable passing point.
Hello where are we here?
What is your point? The falcon was a replica.It was quicker around Lakeside than any other XY Falcon ever has been, including big Petes super Falcon. It should have been in a NC only race, but that was impossible.
The XU1 was a real car with history. Brett raced them as it was in the 70's and did very well. he had the respect of all the other drivers because he was having a big go and was a tough guy to beat. He was only a kid just out of high school. He did not have the HP they had, maybe 100hp less than them.
So I have both ends of the spectrum covered as a car owner. I didn't say anything about replicas vrs real. My point is if your are going to spend $3,000 approx to do about 20 odd laps at a meeting, you had better enjoy yourself!
If you are going to go out in a CAMS Championship round, drive the thing as best as you can. That is the only reward.
Replicas, real cars, who cares. What you said about Mustangs Dave, you are right.

Steve, sorry I misunderstood you position on replicas and I agree one does like to drive what ever car you are in as well as one can.Last time I looked, and it seems I don"t have the latset book,any form of series or championship is prohibited by MSNZ, which is how it should be in my opinion.
Dave.

[Steve Emson]

Hi Old Fart, Your comment about the mainland cars (SI) is very true. When I raced in the 0-1300 Shellsport Championship against Reg Cook and Robbie Francevic, our Datsuns looked very similar to the SI cars. Of course the were not the same. Trevor Crowes car was an OSCA car.
Robbie Lester brought Trevor up to Manfield one time to create a match up with my car. The spectators would never have realised that the cars were running under different rules.
Your comments about Targa are right on. My son and I are about to build an escort for autocross and rallying. We are going to build it as they were, with period parts. It will compete against the classic class cars, which seem to have all sorts of components installed. We will only have a 2.0 pinto engine, and trying to place highly will be difficult against BDG, zetec, duratech and the like engined cars.
The thing I did not mention in Aust was the group C Association. They only let genuine period cars run. They need the original log book as proof. I have driven 3 of these cars. 2 of them were group c Capris ( the old Masterman homes/Bryan Burt Ford cars), and the other was Dick Johnsons Bryan Burt Ford XC Hardtop.
It is a little bit elitist. The owners of these cars have kittens if you get to close to other competitors. I was told DO NOT bend them!
As I have been in Australia since 1986, I really do not know anything about what you guys face with officialdom in NZ. If it is still like the old days, ......good luck. Regards to all. Steve

[Steve Emson]

Steve, sorry I misunderstood you position on replicas and I agree one does like to drive what ever car you are in as well as one can.Last time I looked, and it seems I don"t have the latset book,any form of series or championship is prohibited by MSNZ, which is how it should be in my opinion.
Dave.

Hi Dave, You really have got to the heart of the matter, as far as Qld is concerned. When I got the class recognized as a CAMS Championship, I thought I was doing the right thing for everyone. It did give us our own races, rather than be lost amongst club car fields.
It all became too serious over time. The cars started to be built like sports sedans. It also attracted the wrong sort of mind set for this class. I possibly in hindsight made an error.
It should have been about racing these cars for the pleasure of driving them.
It is amazing what some people will do to get their hands on a plastic trophy.
regards, Steve

[jim short]

Hi Steve is your Dad still about I last saw him at the 91 SFOS in yellow Torana

[Steve Emson]

Hi Jim, Yes, Dad turns 80 this month. He lives just a short distance from me and my brother also. I have bought a little escort and he will be driving that in autocross at Willowbank. He got a trophy the other day. The car is std at the moment but we are about to modify it. The Photo is of me, my daughter Krystal, who won a ladies trophy, and Dad. 3 trophies for the Emson Family. A good day.
9237

[John McKechnie]

This reminds me of when I was at the Easter Show , Epsom in early 70s, a group of Waikaraka Park guys were at the fun go karts.They arranged themselves so that they all got on the at the same time, then they started.It was spectacular to say the least. My take- people who want to race will race. It is only the rules that will limit the technology. Once points, trophys and championships are introduced then its hero time. Historic racing here talks about the spirit , not the ego or competitive edge. Bruce 302 is right on the money when he says that the authentic car is what it is all about , that pulls the crowds. A racing replica is just that, second best. Second best, for me is still better than sitting on the side lines. Choose the class that suits you- thats what HMC is all about.

[fullnoise68]

Best you get that Falcon finished then John. Instead of watching through the windscreen, you`ll be watching from the other side of the fence.

[John McKechnie]

Believe me Steve , it is high priority , even if I keep the original brakes set up on it will be at HD January.Have to keep the Camaro ,Mustang Javelin numbers balanced.Its always easy to race from the other side of the fence, hardest part is getting others to fit my deadlines. Roll cage being painted today.

[RacerT]

Hi All

I figured this topic needed a bit of fresh meat tossed into the arena for the boys to tear at!
Surely classic and historic racing is about racing the cars as they were in their day, or as near to the period specifications as is possible with technology and safety in mind? Otherwise, if the vehicle contains modern adaptations and greater sophistication, then it can still race, but in club events. I presume that when the thousands of people went to see the Mosquito flying at Ardmore, they expected it to be running twin Rolls Royce Merlins, not turbo charged Nissan V16's. It is similar with Historic and classic cars. People want to see them as they were and with a similar performance to what they had in period. The most long lasting series and classes have a good set of regulations that keep cheating to a minimum of innovation and provide close racing.

There are two schools of thought on the makeup of the grids for H&C racing. One is cars of a similar period, so, say 1960's cars would have Mustangs against Mini Coopers and 1970's would then have the later cars and the 1980's etc. The second is to group the cars together by lap time proximity.
This then could put tecnologically more advanced cars with dinosaurs from previous decades. From a specator's stand point, it would depend if you were a purist, or just want to be entertained, as to which form of racing you enjoy.

I first started classic racing in 1982, so I've seen quite a lot of change over 30 years and not always for the good. Before that I raced in the National classes for a while, so understand where that perspective comes from.

Tony Roberts

[Bruce302]

[I] Bruce 302 is right on the money when he says that the authentic car is what it is all about , that pulls the crowds. A racing replica is just that, second best. Second best, for me is still better than sitting on the side lines. Choose the class that suits you- thats what HMC is all about.[I]

John, the more I see and hear from other participants I realise I was only seeing from the perspective of one of my cars. Everyone wants to have fun and exercise their cars appropriately. There are plenty of very good drivers in very well built and fast cars. Instinctively I'm sure we all understand that , say, a Maser 250 F has nothing more to prove, it can be exercised a bit less frenetically than newer cars made in greater numbers.
Perhaps each grid needs like minded entrants that are aware of the people they are sharing the track with. Problems are more likely when those racing for trophies and mixed with those that aren't.
In general, we are very lucky to have a high standard of driving in V & C 'racing'.

Bruce.

[fullnoise68]

Well said Bruce. Morse code should stay in the military and not be used in the braking area. Having said that, the need for speed is not paramount, sure it helps, but entertaining and enjoyable racing should be the winner on any given race day.

[Kiwiboss]

All you guys have good points, but what really IS "Classic and Historic" racing in NZ? we would all like to own and race the original but these cars are so few in NZ not all can own one, let alone the price! your Pontiac for instance Bruce has made all the history its ever going to make so any further on track events today is purely for the benefit of public entertainment(and yourself), thats why events like the festival is the place and time for your vehicle. Having a very close silhouette "Saloon" class like HMC is about as good as it can get for those interested in NZ motorsport "Saloon" history, that also want to race and to recreate what it must have been like for Fahey, Dawson, Marwood and so on(and the luv of the cars).

What i've learned over the years is no matter what the group is, and what one decides to race, ITS THE PERSONS ATTITUDED that counts, and to help "soften" this attitude you must remove the BULLSEYE and thats why HMC will have NO trophy's, points rounds, yearly series, prize givings, etc. Because with this comes people wanting to WIN with less concern about "the history", and the lenghts i've seen people go to over the years to WIN at there chosen category is truly amazing, and generally to fund ones racing this leads to sponsors but they want value for money(EG, winning on TV) and when they don't get value for money they want to know WHY, and so you start one big vicoius circle. But, luckly here in good ol NZ there seens to be a place for everybody.

I personally think we missed the boat years ago when i comes to sorting out our NZ Classic class's, the Aussies pretty much have it sorted and its strictly controlled by there sancturing body, i know they have there issue's!! those grizzling about can't get old parts anymore, bla bla bla but i tend to think "well you knew what you where in for" why did you do it(or maybe they didnt?)!!

One thing i've noticed with the inception of HMC is AGE, as we get older we tend to see what we do with a bit more insight, interestingly in the US they have a Seniors historic group, no not for the cars, the owners must be 70 plus to race, true!!LOL

Dale M

[John McKechnie]

Dale, I dont think we have missed the boat in sorting out our classic class.In Aus for example cars have disappeared-Terry Allens Camaro for example.Here they can be accounted for as we are such a small country.Second we have never been a disposable car society like them , so consequently car bodies and parts can still be found.Our problem is that we love to tinker and experiment so a period replica will never really satisfy a need to improve the thrill.They are very strict on authenticity of period racers, yet they still complain that not enough cars showing up.Tranzam over there fills a need.You said yourself there was a need for HMC. The other Muscle car class was set up years ago and we all can see when you stray from sensibility,I think the timing is right and these threads show the genuine interest now with all past experience to keep the reins tight on rules-Sir, is this how the car left the factory?One downside is that all the cigarette companies will be loving all the free advertising on authentic and replicas -and no sponsorship money passing hands.

[RogerH]

What i've learned over the years is no matter what the group is, and what one decides to race, ITS THE PERSONS ATTITUDED that counts, and to help "soften" this attitude you must remove the BULLSEYE and thats why HMC will have NO trophy's, points rounds, yearly series, prize givings, etc. Because with this comes people wanting to WIN with less concern about "the history", and the lenghts i've seen people go to over the years to WIN at there chosen category is truly amazing,
Dale M

About five years ago we dispensed with championships, points and trophies for the Formula Juniors and I think this has, at least in part, contributed to the growth in grid numbers. People race with like minded people for the enjoyment of exercising great period race cars - there is nothing to win so egos and hero passing acts don't really happen. The philosophy for the cars is "as it was, so it shall be" and this along with a reasonable supply of genuine period cars at not stupid prices makes for fun for drivers and a spectacle for the crowd.

[Steve Holmes]

It would seem in some parts, even if a car has history and is highly valuable, it still gets beaten to death for the sake of winning. There has been quite an uproar in the last couple of weeks over Martin Brundle destroying Bill Shepherds AC Cobra at Goodwood, trying desperately to keep pace with the leading Daytona coupe. He flew into St Mary's too hot, lost control and fired straight into the Bryant Cobra. Both cars are severely damaged. And all for what?

[John McKechnie]

Answers simple Steve, as plain as a Bulgarian pin-up.Owner gave car to professional race car driver,. End of story.. The word desperate says it all.I dont believe the word desperate comes under spirit of Historic Races .These are old Historics and the ego of the owner matches the drive-MUST WIN AT GOODWOOD winning is everything..No respect for 40 plus year old machinery.In America he would be out the door immediately as Bruce 302 has rightly stated .Having had an Alfa smack into the back of my Mustang when the start lights didnt change reinforces my belief you race with those who have a strong personal attachment to their car.Check the umbilical cords of the other drivers on the grid before you get on the track

[kiwi285]

Hopefully Brundle won't get invited back to race. That would send a strong message to the red eyed idiots that they won't be welcome if they act that way. That could be most embarrassing for them to be ousted for a period of time.

It used to be 'all care and no responsibility' with some of these characters it 'no care and absolutely no responsibility.' I remember reading of another ex F1 driver who did the same thing to a valuable Ferrari and the just walked away with a shrug of his shoulders.

[Oldfart]

Question; did the owner ask Brundle to drive, or was this one of Lord Marchs known forays to an owner insisting that his selected drivers take over? (Or either park your car or leave the building)

[Steve Holmes]

Its probably a combination of the two Rhys. I know there is quite a lot of pressure to have a 'name' driver either alongside or instead of the owner at this event, and in fact, doing this goes a long way to having entries accepted. Grant C told me he was rejected an entry a few years ago with his Connaught when he told the organisers he planned to drive the car himself, not loan it out to a 'name' driver.

[Kiwiboss]

Its probably a combination of the two Rhys. I know there is quite a lot of pressure to have a 'name' driver either alongside or instead of the owner at this event, and in fact, doing this goes a long way to having entries accepted. Grant C told me he was rejected an entry a few years ago with his Connaught when he told the organisers he planned to drive the car himself, not loan it out to a 'name' driver.

Its a very fine balancing act Steve, the historic event organisers want a "named" driver to advertise too attract the paying public, the car owners wants to be at this event with his zillion dollar car and hopes the named drive will look after his treasure, the named driver has been a racer all his life(otherwise he wouldn't be a named driver) but still wants to win!! you them put him in a race with other named drivers driving other persons treasures and "CAR-bam" it ends in tears!! although not always!!

At Monterey this year they had 850 race applicants(so i was told) but can only take 530, me mate John Watkins racing his IMSA Boss Mustang in 2010 put his two outside wheels off the racing line corning 4 times in one race and kick up a small amount of dust and was then stood down for the 2011 Historics event as he was considered "over driving" his old car, he was back this year. They are real tuff on this at this event but they have the numbers to beable to do so!!

Dale M

[kiwi285]

If that is the case then maybe Lord March should be picking up the tab for the stupidity of his 'named' drivers. I guess that the owners have a choice here and most decide to take the risk. Wonder if they are keen to return in the future after such an eye watering experience.

[John McKechnie]

Can see why Paul Morris (Aus )does not drive there then.

[Oldfart]

If that is the case then maybe Lord March should be picking up the tab for the stupidity of his 'named' drivers. I guess that the owners have a choice here and most decide to take the risk. Wonder if they are keen to return in the future after such an eye watering experience.

Read the reply from Steve above. It was Grant who told me too. It is not as if he does not have pretty good driving pedigree himself, and would not be a dissapointment, but I guess it proves fairly well the the "Cars are NOT the stars" at that event, and they should be.
If it needs the "named drivers" I would be surprised, I suspect that most spectators are there for the cars, and the drivers are a bonus, not the other way round.

[ERC]

Interesting drift for the thread. Having been to three Goodwood Festival of Speed (hillclimb) and two Revival (race) meetings, my own perspective may not align with others, but I go to see the cars, not the named drivers. Same applies at Hampton Downs or any other meeting.

Lord March's sandpit, Lord March's rules. There is absolutely no doubt at all that these two events are world class, but ironically, I have never been on the Sunday, (for various reasons) and my memories are of stunning cars, iconic noises (BRM V16 for example) and guest appearances by celebrity drivers, not as racers, but just being there. Practices are interesting and photogenic enough to make the trips worthwhile.

We all aware of the amazing restoration work done by Hall & Hall, Dick Crosthwaite etc., and we are privileged to be able to see and hear these cars being exercised. Whether at 6/10ths or 8/10ths is irrelevent for me.

As others have pointed out, the win at all costs attitude of some drivers, does the sport no good at all.

Here in NZ, with our ERC Series we don't take points scoring too seriously, but I'd like to think that the guys enter because of the camaraderie, a more pragmatic attitude towards the cars and an acceptance that we have the right to suspend or bar them if they get out of line with our aims and objectives.

Ask any of them who turn up for the annual awards dinner, and I doubt that any of them will tell you it has anything to do with the awards, other than the silly ones, and everything to do with a very social get together at the end of the season for a nice meal and a few laughs.

Few seem to remember that classic grids 20 years ago were somewhat mismatched, with bog standard GTs sharing the track with Owen Evans, Racing Ray Williams et al and there was very little for the amateur low budget racer at all. TACCOC dumped all series as their philosophy was as stated above, but grids were somewhat haphazard, other than Whenuapai which was a real annual event with great grids.

Whilst we have our critics, (who doesn't?) we still believe that if driver behaviour is well controlled, it counts for rather more than whether or not the car is 100% period. Democratically, if enough people believe a car is deemed to be outside the acceptance criteria, or the spirit of the rules, or the driver doesn't understand what we are about, they go.

Simple enough, but the costs of running a meeting are getting a bit too high to be too precious about every single aspect, about every single car, which is why we have allowed a couple of non-registered cars to run with us this weekend, at TACCOC's Pukekohe meeting.

No doubt there are wealthy drivers in any country with expensive, original cars, who can afford to get them fixed, and who drive with rather less care than the amateur with a good replica. Goodwood Revival is the classic example of purity not being respected and there are more dings there each year than there should be. So the hoary old argument about genuine classics not wanting to race against replicas doesn't really stand close scrutiny when you see what they do to themselves! There is NO level playing field anyway, when you can pitch a 7 litre 700 BHP V8 against a 75bhp 4 cylinder on the same grid.

[John McKechnie]

I remember well the grids from 20 years ago in TACAC . Porche had their own series , but wanted to run with the easier older cars. However, I loved the series as it was fun, nobody seemed overly worried about points,except Jim Chrystal. Whenuapai had a magic of its own, no track specialists there.Definitely a low budget era, you could drive to Hamilton Street race in your race car ,it was just like a bigger go-kart track. Ah nostalgia.lets do it again. Just look at Bruce Anderson, he keeps going,and going- a fine example

[ERC]

Ah, Jim Chrystall... He was equal winner of the BMC Trophy when I first ran our series. At that time, it was one scratch race and one handicap race, so inevitably, the winner was always one of the faster cars.

When I announced at the trophy presentation, that for the following season, both points races would be handicaps, Jim marched off into the distance, clutching the trophy (that he refused to return until shortly before his passing), muttering that I had turned the series into a lottery... Correct. And we have never looked back.

I did seek permission from his widow to rename the trophy, the "Jim Chrystall Memorial Trophy", which is still awarded to the driver of the top points scoring 4 cylinder BMC car.