View Full Version : ERC Race Series - Euro Saloons & Sports
Steve has suggested I start a thread for this series, running two grids, as speed groups. AES (Auckland Engineering Supplies) for the slower group and Arrow Wheels. All points races are handicaps.
Without going into the full history or eligibility, this is in effect our 27th year, having started in 1986 by Donn White as the BMC Series for 4 cylinder cars. For a variety of reasons (much of it by popular demand!) since I was shoved into the hot seat by Derek Prior (MGCC) in 1996, it has grown to encompass pre 1977 European cars and for this season, a class for post 1977, but still 25 year old cars. We also accept a limited number of cars with appropriate Euro engine transplants (shock! horror!) such as Gordon Burr's V8 Escort and the ex-Trevor Crowe Skoda V8, but they are subject to certain limitations.
Although road registered is not essential (why bother if you are using a trailer?), the series is effectively for road cars running on Dot rated road tyres and with much of the interior trim.
Although we have only just finished last season, we already have a healthy number (below) who have paid up for the new season which kicks off at Icebreaker at Hampton Downs 15/16th September. We have rounds at Hampton Downs, Pukekohe and one at Taupo. We do the HRC events and although initially under the auspices of the MGCC, we are now under HRC, so are not a club as such, just a race series. We work closely with Alfa Trofeo and have always allowed their newer (post 1977) cars to run with us.
Six or seven rounds (still awaiting date confirmations from TACCOC) with the best 5 weekends to count and the last round (our own meeting, April 21st) is double points.
If anyone is interested, the website is http://www.tops.co.nz/car/erc/erc_index.htm
We would like to run 100% to T & C, but as mentioned elsewhere, there are several areas of T & C that don't really address some issues we have and also impose limitations that we deem unnecessary, so although we support most aspects of T & C, we choose to have cars on the track rather than sidelined.
You are more than welcome to keep this thread going and I will update the entry list now and again. Unfortunately, Angus Fogg/Gerald Fogg and the mighty Mini won't be running with us this season. Gerald was the first ever winner of the BMC Trophy.
14 Adrian Hayman AES MG BGT
21 Bryce Platt AES PORSCHE 924 S
42 Des Redgwell AES VOLVO 242GT
49 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
70 Ray Green AES MARCOS VOLVO 3L
122 Dave Metford AES FORD ESCORT MK 1
200 Ross McAlpine AES FORD SIERRA XR8
213 Dave Mallin AES MG BGT
229 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
233 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
240 Earl Cruickshank AES DATSUN 240Z
274 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
281 Paul Chisholm AES VW Golf GTI
317 Colin Craig AES FORD ESCORT MK II
321 Steve Sutherland AES FORD MKII CORTINA
339 Tony Sturm AES MG B SPORTS
755 Peter Bromley AES BMW 2002
867 Steve Sutherland AES FORD ESCORT Mk1
2 Mike Davidson ARROW FORD SIERRA
3 John Dennehy ARROW FORD ESCORT Mk1
6 Mal Clark ARROW ROVER P6 3500
8 Mark Parsons ARROW TRIUMPH TR7 V8
10 Neil Fraser ARROW LANCIA DELTA INTEGRALE
28 Michael Sexton ARROW FORD Escort Mk 1 RS2000
51 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD ESCORT
57 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD CAPRI
88 Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
93 Ivan Selak ARROW FORD ESCORT
115 Chris Barendregt ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
117 John Sampson ARROW FORD CAPRI RS2600
120 John Munro ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
139 Tony Stansfield ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
181 Ron Findlay ARROW FORD PERANA
246 Tony Olissoff ARROW ALFA SUD Ti
260 Ron Findlay ARROW DATSUN 260Z
279 Barry Hare ARROW ROVER VITESSE
280 Ken Williams ARROW MERCEDES 280CE
331 John Hudson ARROW BMW 320
739 Grant Kern ARROW MG B V8 SPORTS
944 Paul Madeley ARROW PORSCHE 944T
This is an invitation series and we also include one or two cars that fall outside the core, such as Tony Roberts Corvette, Neil Tolich's Mustang and we are considering allowing in 6 cylinder Australian Cars, so that Toranas and others that don't comfortably fit in in other classes, have somewhere to race. Prior to the establishment of the Japanese Classic series, there was nowhere for a Datsun 240Z & 260Z to run, so we allowed them in too, but will not accept any more as we don't need to now!
But, the most important aspect is that drivers behave and enjoy themselves. Unlike HMC, we are a specific series with points and trophies, but as the points are never published until after the end of the season, who cares?
Just an update - and a bump. Add the following to the above list. It is always good to see new cars and/or drivers joining the fray and particularly cars not previously represented. Most just haven't yet got around to paying up but as the season doesn't start until Ice Breaker (September 15th/16th) that is no surprise, but it is a very healthy start.
What is encouraging though, is the number of drivers who have been with us for many years - some from the old BMC Series days.
20 Geoff Sparkes AES TRIUMPH Dolomite Sprint
92 Brian Yates AES PORSCHE 924S
98 Don Bradley AES PORSCHE 944
142 Bruce Kirk AES VOLVO 142
169 Neville Thompson AES MG BGT
179 Glen Thompson AES FORD Escort RS2000
198 John Tomlin AES TRIUMPH 2500PI
431 Phil Josephs AES ROVER 220T
80 Derek Atkinson ARROW MORGAN PLUS 8
82 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
83 John Honore ARROW FERRARI 308GTB
TACCOC have been told that their October 6th Pukekohe date is safe - thank goodness!
Steve Holmes
07-19-2012, 07:07 AM
I count 51 cars! Impressive!
Wait a while Steve, as we usually have 100+ by the end of the season!!! We hit an all time high 2009/2010 of 134. Since then of course, BMW have probably had an effect on local classic numbers but they still seem to stand up well each year, so it is looking good overall for classic racing and that makes me very happy indeed in these tough economic times, especially as our average driver age is now about 54, having risen from 52.
The latest update to the list before I head off overseas first thing tomorrow. All in this list are fully paid up for the new season and ready to go! We know that there are many more who have yet to register and several new to the series who have confirmed their intention to join.
I have a full set of points for the 26 years to date that includes the 10 years of Donn White's leadership and the most staggering thing of all is the number who have stayed in the series for many years. (AMCO72 was the first ever BMC series winner... Come back to this board Gerald.... WE like your posts!)
As before, if anyone is interested to learn more, or to register, the website is http://www.tops.co.nz/car/erc/erc_index.htm
14 Adrian Hayman AES MG BGT
20 Geoff Sparkes AES TRIUMPH Dolomite Sprint
21 Bryce Platt AES PORSCHE 924 S
42 Des Redgwell AES VOLVO 242GT
49 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
70 Ray Green AES MARCOS VOLVO 3L
92 Brian Yates AES PORSCHE 924S
98 Don Bradley AES PORSCHE 944
114 Russell Sykes AES MG BGT
122 Dave Metford AES FORD ESCORT MK 1
135 Don Roy AES MG BGT V8
142 Bruce Kirk AES VOLVO 142
169 Neville Thompson AES MG BGT
179 Glen Thompson AES FORD Escort RS2000
185 John Nuthall AES ALFA GTV 105
198 John Tomlin AES TRIUMPH 2500PI
200 Ross McAlpine AES FORD SIERRA XR8
213 Dave Mallin AES MG BGT
229 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
233 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
240 Earl Cruickshank AES DATSUN 240Z
274 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
281 Paul Chisholm AES VW Golf GTI
317 Colin Craig AES FORD ESCORT MK II
321 Steve Sutherland AES FORD MKII CORTINA
339 Tony Sturm AES MG B SPORTS
431 Phil Josephs AES ROVER 220T
755 Peter Bromley AES BMW 2002
867 Steve Sutherland AES FORD ESCORT Mk1
888 Peter Hannaford AES FIAT 130 TC
2 Mike Davidson ARROW FORD SIERRA
3 John Dennehy ARROW FORD ESCORT Mk1
6 Mal Clark ARROW ROVER P6 3500
8 Mark Parsons ARROW TRIUMPH TR7 V8
10 Neil Fraser ARROW LANCIA DELTA INTEGRALE
28 Michael Sexton ARROW FORD Escort Mk 1 RS2000
31 Eddie York ARROW JAGUAR XJ40
44 Andrew Turpin ARROW JAGUAR XJS
51 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD ESCORT
57 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD CAPRI
80 Derek Atkinson ARROW MORGAN PLUS 8
82 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
83 John Honore ARROW FERRARI 308GTB
88 Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
93 Ivan Selak ARROW FORD ESCORT
115 Chris Barendregt ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
117 John Sampson ARROW FORD CAPRI RS2600
120 John Munro ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
139 Tony Stansfield ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
181 Ron Findlay ARROW FORD PERANA
212 Peter Robinson ARROW BMW M3 ALPINA R
246 Tony Olissoff ARROW ALFA SUD Ti
260 Ron Findlay ARROW DATSUN 260Z
279 Barry Hare ARROW ROVER VITESSE
280 Ken Williams ARROW MERCEDES 280CE
331 John Hudson ARROW BMW 320
333 Rogan Hampson ARROW COBRA OHLSEN
739 Grant Kern ARROW MG B V8 SPORTS
944 Paul Madeley ARROW PORSCHE 944T
See you at Ice Breaker - though not until the Sunday for me, unfortunately.
I'll try and pop into this MB now and again to see what is going on.
Now back in NZ (though my luggage isn't...) so will be updating the registrations over the next few days.
On the way down to Icebreaker today after a 13 hour flight, the weather was atrocious, but it seemed to clear up again just after I left.
An entry of 250 cars shows that the North Island classic scene is now very solid and strong and we are pleased to be part of it.
Steve Holmes
09-16-2012, 08:53 PM
Thanks for the update.
14 Adrian Hayman AES MG BGT
20 Geoff Sparkes AES TRIUMPH Dolomite Sprint
21 Bryce Platt AES PORSCHE 924 S
25 Rex Bentham AES MG B SPORTS
42 Des Redgwell AES VOLVO 242GT
49 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
70 Ray Green AES MARCOS VOLVO 3L
89 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 2
92 Brian Yates AES PORSCHE 924S
98 Don Bradley AES PORSCHE 944
99 Stewart Martel AES CITROEN BX16V
114 Russell Sykes AES MG BGT
122 Dave Metford AES FORD ESCORT MK 1
128 Andrew Lines AES FIAT 128SL COUPE
135 Don Roy AES MG BGT V8
137 John Palmer AES MG B GT
138 Ross Hannah AES MG MIDGET
142 Bruce Kirk AES VOLVO 142
169 Neville Thompson AES MG BGT
173 David Herrick AES BMW 2002
179 Glen Thompson AES FORD Escort RS2000
185 John Nuthall AES ALFA GTV 105
198 John Tomlin AES TRIUMPH 2500PI
200 Ross McAlpine AES FORD SIERRA XR8
213 Dave Mallin AES MG BGT
229 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
233 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
240 Earl Cruickshank AES DATSUN 240Z
274 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
281 Paul Chisholm AES VW Golf GTI
295 Mal Chamberlain AES FORD ESCORT
317 Colin Craig AES FORD ESCORT MK II
321 Steve Sutherland AES FORD MKII CORTINA
339 Tony Sturm AES MG B SPORTS
404 Andy Wallace AES BMW 2002Tii
431 Phil Josephs AES ROVER 220T
755 Peter Bromley AES BMW 2002
833 Rob Hunkin AES ALFA 33
867 Steve Sutherland AES FORD ESCORT Mk1
888 Peter Hannaford AES FIAT 130 TC
891 Chris Hunkin AES ALFA 33
910 Simon Mills AES ALFA SUD
833b Edward Hunkin AES ALFA 33
2 Mike Davidson ARROW FORD SIERRA
3 John Dennehy ARROW FORD ESCORT Mk1
4 Colin Campbell ARROW FORD MK1 ESCORT
6 Mal Clark ARROW ROVER P6 3500
8 Mark Parsons ARROW TRIUMPH TR7 V8
9 Martin Day ARROW FORD ESCORT
10 Neil Fraser ARROW LANCIA DELTA INTEGRALE
18 Ken Northin ARROW FORD ESCORT
19 Kerry Chadderton ARROW PORSCHE 911SC
28 Michael Sexton ARROW FORD Escort Mk 1 RS2000
31 Eddie York ARROW JAGUAR XJ40
40 Adrian Dobbe ARROW Viva HB
44 Andrew Turpin ARROW JAGUAR XJS
48 Ricky Cooper ARROW DATSUN 240Z
51 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD ESCORT
57 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD CAPRI
80 Derek Atkinson ARROW MORGAN PLUS 8
82 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
83 John Honore ARROW FERRARI 308GTB
88 Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
93 Ivan Selak ARROW FORD ESCORT
102 Robbie Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
103 Rob Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
104 John Ward ARROW FORD ESCORT
115 Chris Barendregt ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
117 John Sampson ARROW FORD CAPRI RS2600
120 John Munro ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
139 Tony Stansfield ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
158 Tony Vujnovich ARROW Ford Capri
175 Andrew Lines ARROW FIAT COUPE 20VT
181 Ron Findlay ARROW FORD PERANA
199 Grant Harrington ARROW BMW 325i
212 Peter Robinson ARROW BMW M3 ALPINA R
246 Tony Olissoff ARROW ALFA SUD Ti
260 Ron Findlay ARROW DATSUN 260Z
279 Barry Hare ARROW ROVER VITESSE
280 Ken Williams ARROW MERCEDES 280CE
331 John Hudson ARROW BMW 320
333 Rogan Hampson ARROW COBRA OHLSEN
723 Peter Gunter ARROW SKODA
739 Grant Kern ARROW MG B V8 SPORTS
944 Paul Madeley ARROW PORSCHE 944T
Help!
Does anyone know what I am doing wrong here? When I paste the list, all columns are OK, even if I go back to edit, but the display on the published version doesn't adhere to the columns.
We now have 93 paid up and three or four who need to pay up promptly!
Next round (2) is TACCOC's Saturday Pukekohe meeting October 6th. Looking forward to that - and one competitor has already stated that he is running then, before they do anything to the track for the V8s.
Woohoo! Number 100 paid up today. Thanks guys for the continued support.
Sadly, Bernie Hines is selling the Broadspeed replica so won't be running with us this year. Shame as that is one of my all time favourite cars. Bernie was clocked at 129mph on radar at Pukekohe some years ago which basically confirms that the Broadspeed shape transformed the aerodynamics of the humble brick. I sincerely hope the buyer will run it with us.
Can I ask what you mean by zero support from MSNZ?
Not once in all the newsletters, either in print or electronically, has the Series ever really been recognised, encouraged, promoted or acknowledged, despite the massive levies paid over the years. If I have overlooked something, I am happy to be proved wrong.
Never an offer to partially pay for our TV coverage of a few seasons back, so we had to fund it all ourselves, not even $1,000. Yet because we can get decent numbers to our own meeting, we paid MSNZ $2,300 for just one meeting last year. If I totted up the total we have paid MSNZ over the years, just on race levies alone, I am sure it would be substantial.
Only you Crunch, representing MSNZ, but in more in a personal capacity, has ever accepted that not only one grid, but two grids, have been viable and contributed to Classic grids over the last few years in the north island.
At several meetings and particularly, prior to the emergence of the BMW series', we have often provided at least 40% of the levies at those one day meetings, but have we ever been thanked for our considerable contribution to the MSNZ coffers? No, but we do see a lot of push for anyone toeing the T & C and CoD line and vast sums promoting 9 car grids!
Or let me turn it around, what has MSNZ done specifically for the series over the last 17 years? (Or 27 if you include the 10 years under Donn White?)
Maybe this should now move to the ERC thread?
crunch
03-01-2013, 10:04 AM
Hi Ray
So I'm guessing from that you mean support as in the commercial sense such as PR and TV ec. As opposed to the support such as a manual of rules for competitors to race to, officials licensed and trained to do the many tasks, the liability insurance, an outline so the circuit is as safe as possible for you to use, the technical support for those who choose to run COD's...and so on.
There is no way MSNZ will pay for anyone's TV,(want to stay right away from that scenario) but if you wish to provide copy as an article for the Motorsport News and website I would gladly, and appreciate very much, to publish it in the H&C section. Other classes have done that in the past which is probably why they appeared in those publications.
So I'm guessing from that you mean support as in the commercial sense such as PR and TV etc.
Correct
There is no way MSNZ will pay for anyone's TV,(want to stay right away from that scenario) but if you wish to provide copy as an article for the Motorsport News and website I would gladly, and appreciate very much, to publish it in the H&C section. Other classes have done that in the past which is probably why they appeared in those publications.
I did once - but nothing was published or even acknowledged! Probably before your time in the hot seat though.
RogerH
03-02-2013, 12:25 AM
Maybe the issue is that we don't want MSNZ getting involved in our classes and series other than the safety/meeting running type rules and regulations that pertain to racing in general.
However, some of us get a bit cross when we see MSNZ deviating from their governance/administrative/regulatory roles and getting involved in the commercial aspects of the sport and particularly a specific class or series. The questionable $57,500.00 expenditure on the TLX Intellectual Property springs to mind. When these sort of things happen, other segments of the sport (such as H&C) say "what about us".
Perhaps the answer is that MSNZ sticks to their governance/administrative/regulatory roles and doesn't get involved in other matters and then no one can complain they are being unfairly treated from a commercial perspective.
Totally agree Roger. However it appears that MSNZ has always been happy to promote their Tier one events at every opportunity and in each newsletter, printed or electronic, but down at our level, we don't appear to exist. I never expected any cash from MSNZ (that was a bit tongue in cheek), but with reams of communications over the years, plus plugs for any CoD series whether viable or not, we seem to have been totally over-looked as we don't neatly fit into the total philosophy, yet we adhere to the spirit of the aims of classic motorsport - encouraging drivers to come out and have a go and enjoy it, probably better than any other group.
I don't play politics and we refuse to make the T & C adherence compulsory until I am 100% sure that drivers are not in anyway disadvantaged by choosing cars that are difficult to keep 100% original where T & C specifies it. Ditto CoD's. That is probably why we currently have 115 paid up for this season, 4 owing or due to pay, call it 5.
Analysing not only that 120 cars, but those taking a sabbatical for a year and also those with more than one legal car, this is how the figures stack up as at today:
Total cars - 182
Schedule K cars: 8 4.4%
Older CoDs : 18 9.9% - includes IC and the very earliest issued, where it was just a number.
Current CoDs : 36 19.8%
CR CoDs : 2 1.1%
TBA : 7 3.8%
Just a 40% buy in to the CoD system and I am not going to even try to explain why they haven't!
The fact that the majority would comply is irrelevant as is the fact that the majority also conform pretty well to T & C.
You can draw your own conclusions, but there is no overwhelming evidence to force us to adopt T & C or the CoD system as it currently stands. A fair number including myself I might add, only got CoD's as we were effectively threatened that we would not be allowed to run without them - confirmed and ratified at one MSNZ conference, but later overturned.
To the best of my knowledge, only one person has pulled out from competing due to our rules and that was only in relation to moving to two speed groups (small faster open sports car vs big cars = scary) and he still pays a membership fee!
Obviously, with just a third taking it up, why force all the additional costs and aggravation (not to mention work for the commission) just to say they have a CoD?
RogerH
03-02-2013, 01:57 AM
Totally agree Roger. However it appears that MSNZ has always been happy to promote their Tier one events at every opportunity and in each newsletter, printed or electronic, but down at our level, we don't appear to exist. .....
This may having something to do with none of the top hierarchy at MSNZ having a background in H&C - I suppose it is only normal that people would concentrate on areas of the sport in which they have an inherent affinity.
The structure of MSNZ and the Commissions that sit below the Executive is that a Commission Chairman has to be an Executive member irrespective of whether he or she has any interest, background or affinity in that segment of the sport. The H&C Commission is a prime example where Crunch was appointed from the Executive as the H&C Commission Chairman and while he has made genuine efforts to understand the H&C ethos, I'm sure he would admit that his background and first love is rally. This is no criticism of Crunch - just a criticism of the system.
I believe Crunch has gone out of his way to try and understand the ethos, but he would be the first to admit that the commission is often divided on several issues - which is no bad thing, other than a split vote means that votes on issues that are important to a sizeable proportion of the membership, can go against them as well as for them. He would be the first to admit that several battles have been extremely hard fought!
The areas where T & C is indeed unworkable, I believe Crunch now understands all too well, but my guess is that others on the commission may be either unwilling or unable to accept that the very reason T & C exists at all, is that there is a variation from Schedule K, but it has to be 100% workable without straying too far away from the basics.
Our next round is at HD for the Legends meeting, but it is a pity that a fair few of the regulars will be galloping up Mr Millen's driveway, March 23/24th. I believe Crunch is coming to HD and will front up at the Saturday evening function. As I am unable to race (still awaiting another spinal fusion...) I'll make the effort to attend.
Latest list of registered cars, with an extra influx of Porsches and Alfas...
13 Paul Kendrick AES FIAT 131 R
14 Adrian Hayman AES MG BGT V8
20 Geoff Sparkes AES TRIUMPH Dolomite Sprint
21 Bryce Platt AES PORSCHE 924 S
25 Rex Bentham AES MG B SPORTS
30 Rod Hemmings AES TVR 3000M
33 Nick Wilcox AES MG F
34 Graeme Park AES PORSCHE 944S2
42 Des Redgwell AES VOLVO 242GT
49 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
54 Ken Haycock AES MINI CLUBMAN GT
58 Leonard Bakkens AES VOLVO 122 S
64 John Palmer AES MG BGT
65 Stewart Martel AES CITROEN BX16V
68 Renton Murray AES MG B SPORTS
70 Ray Green AES MARCOS VOLVO 3L
71 Adam Jones AES FORD ESCORT GT
76 Craig Sawyer AES VAUXHALL CHEVETTE
89 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 2
92 Brian Yates AES PORSCHE 924S
100 Mike John AES VAUXHALL Viva GT
108 Mike Fenwick AES BMW 325
114 Russell Sykes AES MG BGT
122 Dave Metford AES FORD ESCORT MK 1
128 Andrew Lines AES FIAT 128SL COUPE
135 Don Roy AES MG BGT V8
137 John Palmer AES MG B GT
138 Ross Hannah AES MG MIDGET
139 Tony Stansfield AES PORSCHE 944S2
142 Bruce Kirk AES VOLVO 142
150 Allan Brook AES MG BGT
169 Neville Thompson AES MG BGT
173 David Herrick AES BMW 2002
177 Tony Roberts AES HOLDEN TORANA
179 Glen Thompson AES FORD Escort RS2000
185 John Nuthall AES ALFA GTV 105
189 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 7
198 John Tomlin AES TRIUMPH 2500PI
200 Ross McAlpine AES FORD SIERRA XR8
213 Dave Mallin AES MG BGT
220 Gordon Burr AES ALFA GT AM
222 Bruce Jones AES FORD CAPRI
229 Chris Browne AES ALFAROMEO ALFASUD TI
231 John Hudson AES BMW 2002
233 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
240 Earl Cruickshank AES DATSUN 240Z
274 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
280 Ken Williams AES MERCEDES 280CE
281 Paul Chisholm AES VW Golf GTI
295 Mal Chamberlain AES FORD ESCORT
317 Colin Craig AES FORD ESCORT MK II
321 Steve Sutherland AES FORD MKII CORTINA
339 Tony Sturm AES MG B SPORTS
400 David Frith AES Alfa Alfa 33 1.7
404 Andy Wallace AES BMW 2002Tii
431 Phil Josephs AES ROVER 220T
461 Andy Durber AES FIAT 128 RALLY
483 Denis Hamill AES FORD ESCORT
616 Dave Mallin AES MG BGT V8
755 Peter Bromley AES BMW 2002
833 Rob Hunkin AES ALFA 33
867 Steve Sutherland AES FORD ESCORT Mk1
888 Peter Hannaford AES FIAT 130 TC
891 Chris Hunkin AES ALFA 33
910 Simon Mills AES ALFA SUD
100J Mike John AES JAGUAR MK2
833b Edward Hunkin AES ALFA 33
2 Mike Davidson ARROW FORD SIERRA
3 John Dennehy ARROW FORD ESCORT Mk1
4 Colin Campbell ARROW FORD MK1 ESCORT
6 Mal Clark ARROW ROVER P6 3500
7 Tony Roberts ARROW CHEVROLET CORVETTE
8 Mark Parsons ARROW TRIUMPH TR7 V8
9 Martin Day ARROW FORD ESCORT
10 Neil Fraser ARROW LANCIA DELTA INTEGRALE
15 Phil Laird ARROW BMW 318IS
18 Ken Northin ARROW FORD ESCORT
19 Kerry Chadderton ARROW PORSCHE 911SC
22 Neil Tolich ARROW FORD MUSTANG
23 Rob Moston ARROW JAGUAR XJ 6
26 Steve Newenham ARROW DATSUN 260 Z
28 Michael Sexton ARROW FORD Escort Mk 1 RS2000
31 Eddie York ARROW JAGUAR XJ40
38 Mike Connolly ARROW FORD ESCORT MK2
40 Adrian Dobbe ARROW VAUXHALL VIVA HB
44 Andrew Turpin ARROW JAGUAR XJS
48 Ricky Cooper ARROW DATSUN 240Z
51 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD ESCORT
57 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD CAPRI
60 Chris Fraser ARROW MORGAN PLUS 8
63 Kevin Etches ARROW PORSCHE 944
66 Todd Forsyth ARROW MG BV8
80 Derek Atkinson ARROW MORGAN PLUS 8
81 Simon Gilbertson ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
82 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
83 John Honore ARROW FERRARI 308GTB
84 Gerry Hodges ARROW BMW 635CSI
88 Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
93 Ivan Selak ARROW FORD ESCORT
98 Don Bradley ARROW PORSCHE 944
102 Robbie Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
103 Rob Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
104 John Ward ARROW FORD ESCORT
105 Arthur Vowles ARROW ALFA GUILIA SUPER
107 Grant Clegg ARROW BMW 2002 ti Alpina
115 Chris Barendregt ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
117 John Sampson ARROW FORD CAPRI RS2600
119 Wayne Tinker ARROW PORSCHE
120 John Munro ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
121 Craig Howser ARROW FORD RS2000
141 Jason Nicholl ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
152 Arthur Vowles ARROW ALFA 1600GT JUNIOR
158 Tony Vujnovich ARROW FORD PERANA
159 Glen Thompson ARROW MG B SPORTS
175 Andrew Lines ARROW FIAT COUPE 20VT
181 Ron Findlay ARROW FORD PERANA
181 Peter Bainbridge ARROW MGB SPORTS
193 Brent Stratton ARROW ALFA 33 16V
199 Grant Harrington ARROW BMW 325i
222 Peter Robinson ARROW BMW M3 ALPINA R
246 Tony Olissoff ARROW ALFA SUD Ti
260 Ron Findlay ARROW DATSUN 260Z
279 Barry Hare ARROW ROVER VITESSE
331 John Hudson ARROW BMW 320
333 Rogan Hampson ARROW COBRA OHLSEN
410 Gordon Burr ARROW FERRARI 308GT4LM
456 Neil Tolich ARROW FORD PERANA
502 Steve Cowie ARROW ALFA GT
567 Gordon Burr ARROW FORD ESCORT
739 Grant Kern ARROW MG B V8 SPORTS
778 Rex Ferrall ARROW TRIUMPH TR8
783 Peter Gunter ARROW SKODA
944 Paul Madeley ARROW PORSCHE 944T
16B Kevin Cantwell ARROW PORSCHE 964
8B Arthur Vowles ARROW ALFA DUETTO
Not sure how many are at the Legends this weekend, but there were 24 as at last week. Note that several drivers have registered more than one car and at least two cars have been sold but the owners are building other cars for the series. In one case, negotiations for purchase are still on-going.
Numbers with a "B"suffix denote cars that need to change their chosen race numbers or who are sharing a car.
Well, that is the racing over for this season with a combined grid of 34 cars, on a damp then wet Pukekohe last Saturday. No panel damage, despite the number of cars with a very high speed differential; two handicap races, where all bar three finishers were across the line within 25 seconds in the wet. Congratulations to all drivers for showing it can be done and done well.
They made me proud to be involved, as the driving standards were so much higher than we have witnessed at other meetings this season, even at those high profile events where there was not even a chocolate fish to aim for, yet a fair bit of panel damage.
However, whilst our registrations are still very high (121) as with most other series this season, overall grid numbers have been lower than for several seasons. We have no idea why, but as any competent statistician will tell you, one blip of low grid numbers does not constitute a trend, so maybe we shouldn't panic or change anything, but equally, I think that we have to be on our toes to see how things pan out.
After many discussions with many people including the Historic Commission members, we now believe our series rules are robust enough to be independent of both the T & C rules and also the need for an (expensive - soon to be more expensive) CoD.
This does leave us somewhat out in the cold as the MSNZ Race Commission are unlikely to totally understand our philosophy and the H & C Commission understand it, but don't totally support it!
However, we will continue to support the H & C Commission, as we are more closely aligned to them and their ideals.
The fact that only about 15% of our drivers now have a CoD, supports our stance that the CoD system is basically aimed at the genuine historic cars with a provenance that needs preservation, be they old NZ single seaters or the Historic Muscle Cars running to a very tight set of rules - and with some possibility of International competition.
Maybe it is now time for a cheap, one page, declaration of a "Classic" car, that may or may not be 100% standard, but specifying the basics - bodyshell age; engine age, type, source and capacity; gearbox type and source; a brief declaration on wheels, tyres, brakes and suspension etc. It doesn't require a $240 outlay and reams of wasteful paper to state that an E30 BMW is an E30 BMW, or an MGB GT is an MGB GT.
Anyway, overall a mainly successful 27th season for us, with just the fun awards dinner to go now (June 22nd - free to paid up members... Paying guests welcome!)
For next season, we'll still support all HRC meetings at HD, Taupo and Pukekohe and we still have to decide on whether or not we'll run our own meeting, given the small grid sizes of all other groups we normally invite. It is an issue that needs debating, as it is too expensive to run a meeting with grids only a quarter full. Grids have to be combined and each tiny group can no longer afford to have a sandpit to itself - unless of course, they are willing to pay what it really costs...
RacerT
05-05-2013, 11:51 PM
Maybe it is now time for a cheap, one page, declaration of a "Classic" car, that may or may not be 100% standard, but specifying the basics - bodyshell age; engine age, type, source and capacity; gearbox type and source; a brief declaration on wheels, tyres, brakes and suspension etc. It doesn't require a $240 outlay and reams of wasteful paper to state that an E30 BMW is an E30 BMW, or an MGB GT is an MGB GT.
...
Great Series ERC, but T&C regulations are far from requiring 100% standard, in fact they are really quite a loose set of regulations that 95% of your series cars would comply with anyway. For the life of me I can't see why you would introduce another form, which would have administration costs and audit costs? A COD costs $97, so not sure where your $240 cost comes from?
What is your main sticking point with COD's. Some specifics would be good. The COD system is far from perfect, but it is still worth persevering with.
I think we have been down this track before, particularly with commission members! The $240 cost is the new rate for a CoD.
Don't get me wrong, we don't need another form as such, but the point is that the CoD has been increasingly worthless for us, increasingly valuable for HMC and historic single seaters and cars that conform to Schedule K.
The 14 page COD system is fine when the clutch diameter is important, but not for the majority of road cars.
Getting original bits for many 40+ year old cars is getting increasingly difficult, or even 25+, especially exterior and interior trim. Although the H & Commission have slackened off in many respects, there are still a few too many issues in a series such as ours, to make conformity mandatory, so we tend to invoke the "Spirit of the Series" clause and it works well. The fact that 95% of our cars may well conform doesn't really explain why only 15% have bothered to get a COD.
Put quite simply, if you could wander down to your local scrapyard and get a decent front bumper, wing or radiator grille or the chrome trim, for reasonable money, you would. But you can't. So if you decide to hide your increasingly expensive bits under the bench and fit either fibreglass replacements or even nothing at all, why wouldn't you? Better to have cars out on the track racing than hidden in garages as they are now deemed too expensive to risk.
Who is going to pay the $600 a side for your scarce chrome trims, easily damaged on the track? The guy who leans on you who or who has a bit of brake or brain fade? I don't think so.
Why is original window winding mechanism so important? What is a thoroughbred car? (T & C implies "Thoroughbred & Classic", but no one has yet decided what constitutes a thoroughbred - and I am not going to try either.)
All these issues including performance modifications are dealt with. It is called handicap racing, as we accept there is no such thing as a level playing field. Others use that tired old cliche when they really need to stand back and smell the roses and accept that a 1500cc Alfa Sud fitted with an engine from an Alfa 33 still isn't going to beat Racing Ray Williams, Tony Roberts, Derek Atkinson, Neil Tolich, Mike Sexton or Bruce Manon, no matter how hard they try.
Sensible racers know that sooner or later you are going to get panel damage, whether you drive sensibly or not. Rubbing door handles and ripping off mirrors may be OK for big budget Aussie V8s, but is not OK if you are running a TVR, Renault Gordini, Fiat 128, Mk 7 Jaguar, '65 Zephyr or these days, even an Alfa Sud.
For T & C to be valid, it has to differentiate sufficiently between Schedule K and what the drivers actually want - not that that is an easy task either.
Our rules work for us and I presume that our drivers are happy enough as I don't get them pestering me to change the rules, even though ocasionally, some have grizzled when we had to move forwards and accept that pre 1977 and run ons is no longer viable for us. We have had to allow in later cars - or fade away - and we still don't have over full grids.
nzeder
05-06-2013, 05:26 AM
Although I am not actively racing a car currently, still finishing off the 1/2 completed project I picked up, I have been around as "pit bitch" since I returned to NZ back in 2003 and only did a few classic trails in a car I don't have anymore. I raced back in the mid/late 90's in my 20's just club stuff but always following T&C type cars.
I have read the MSNZ Manual over all these years - always around the class of cars/racing I love that is T & C based. The rules have change a lot over the years. I don't think there an issues with the T&C rules as they are today. I think the issue is as they have changed over the years the cars, either have not (ie no longer conform to the current rules) or have even moved further away from the older based rules (resulting in cars that the owners would not like to return back to the current rules as that would involve large costs finding now rare part and/or decrease in performance)
I my self will not be getting a COD right away when my car is ready. Why some might ask? It comes down to how people interpret the rules of T&C - to me they are very clear with the current wordings. Brakes are "Free" then there is definition of this as follows
“Free (part)” means that the original part as well as its function may be removed or replaced
with a new part on condition that the new part has no additional function relative to the original
part and must be from the same era and be shown to be available, or used in period, on the
make and model the car depicts, and
I have highlighted the bit that to me is the most abused part of the rules - this is very clear to me. My car can't be 100% T&C compliant if I run Wilwood calipers which are on the car. Everything else on my car will be. I don't have the budget right now to get correct period calipers - and I hope to one day but as the series I will be running in does not require me to have a COD then I will not apply for a COD until I have the period calipers.
My reason for saying my car will not be T&C compliant is simple - the car is a pre 77 and as such Wilwood did not exist so are not "from the same era or shown to be available" and therefore were not "used in period, on the make or model the car depicts"
I have managed to secure 1 pair of period calipers that need rebuilding (and I don't have the spare budget right now to do this when I want to finish the car over winter and get back out there + I still have some big ticket items still to purchase aka MyLabs transponder - so if anyone has a second hand one they are parting with let me know ;)) and I know of a second pair of these factory period calipers (one of my old pairs I sold back in the 90's) that I hope to secure one day too - but for now I will be running the brakes as they are on the car now aka Wilwood = not T&C compliant for my make/model and 100% of pre 77 cars if read this rule correctly.
So if my reading of the rule "Free (Part)" is correct then 99% of T&C cars that are pre 77 that I have seen at the track over the last 20 years are not compliant as most are running Wilwood -
Why do we run Wilwood?
Simple that is what most of us can afford as dropping $3000 for a pair of new period correct AP Historic range of calipers is out of the question and we want to stop our cars safely lap after lap.
Sorry I missed the last weekend Ray - Saturday winter meetings = kids winter sport where this Dad is a coach of a 6 year old football (soccer) team so I can't make Saturday's. I have watch some in car footage of the last AES/Arrows grid and I must say - a close bunch at the end crossing the line so well done on the season and handicapping.
RogerH
05-06-2013, 06:02 AM
I think we have been down this track before, particularly with commission members! The $240 cost is the new rate for a CoD.
This is not correct Ray - the new fee structure came through at $240 for CODs but a number of people complained and through the efforts of the H&C Commission it was subsequently amended to $97.
RogerH
05-06-2013, 06:04 AM
Although I am not actively racing a car currently, still finishing off the 1/2 completed project I picked up, I have been around as "pit bitch" since I returned to NZ back in 2003 and only did a few classic trails in a car I don't have anymore. I raced back in the mid/late 90's in my 20's just club stuff but always following T&C type cars.
I have read the MSNZ Manual over all these years - always around the class of cars/racing I love that is T & C based. The rules have change a lot over the years. I don't think there an issues with the T&C rules as they are today. I think the issue is as they have changed over the years the cars, either have not (ie no longer conform to the current rules) or have even moved further away from the older based rules (resulting in cars that the owners would not like to return back to the current rules as that would involve large costs finding now rare part and/or decrease in performance)
I my self will not be getting a COD right away when my car is ready. Why some might ask? It comes down to how people interpret the rules of T&C - to me they are very clear with the current wordings. Brakes are "Free" then there is definition of this as follows
I have highlighted the bit that to me is the most abused part of the rules - this is very clear to me. My car can't be 100% T&C compliant if I run Wilwood calipers which are on the car. Everything else on my car will be. I don't have the budget right now to get correct period calipers - and I hope to one day but as the series I will be running in does not require me to have a COD then I will not apply for a COD until I have the period calipers.
My reason for saying my car will not be T&C compliant is simple - the car is a pre 77 and as such Wilwood did not exist so are not "from the same era or shown to be available" and therefore were not "used in period, on the make or model the car depicts"
I have managed to secure 1 pair of period calipers that need rebuilding (and I don't have the spare budget right now to do this when I want to finish the car over winter and get back out there + I still have some big ticket items still to purchase aka MyLabs transponder - so if anyone has a second hand one they are parting with let me know ;)) and I know of a second pair of these factory period calipers (one of my old pairs I sold back in the 90's) that I hope to secure one day too - but for now I will be running the brakes as they are on the car now aka Wilwood = not T&C compliant for my make/model and 100% of pre 77 cars if read this rule correctly.
So if my reading of the rule "Free (Part)" is correct then 99% of T&C cars that are pre 77 that I have seen at the track over the last 20 years are not compliant as most are running Wilwood -
Why do we run Wilwood?
Simple that is what most of us can afford as dropping $3000 for a pair of new period correct AP Historic range of calipers is out of the question and we want to stop our cars safely lap after lap.
Sorry I missed the last weekend Ray - Saturday winter meetings = kids winter sport where this Dad is a coach of a 6 year old football (soccer) team so I can't make Saturday's. I have watch some in car footage of the last AES/Arrows grid and I must say - a close bunch at the end crossing the line so well done on the season and handicapping.
I think you would find that if your car had or could have been fitted with say, 4 pot callipers in period, then you could fit 4 pot Wilwoods and as long as you didn't have a number of other non-compliant parts on your car you would get a COD (possibly a B COD but a COD nevertheless).
EType
05-06-2013, 06:17 AM
Just in case it helps - my 1965 E Type has a COD and 4 pot Wilwood calipers.
There weren't any issue with them.
Stewart
You can get CoD with I think, up to two or three non conforming items, so that means an A/B/C CoD.
Kiwiboss
05-06-2013, 09:46 AM
My HMC 69 Mustang has Wilwood calipers and is A COD compliant and issued, i provided the H&C commission with information regarding the Wilwood caliper which was founded in around 1974. JFZ was found earlier(don't have exact date at hand) but even earlier was a company called "Edco Specialty Products" around 1968/9 which i believe got swallowed up by Wilwood. Also in the mix was Hurst-Airheart(early/mid 60's) along with AP out of England, all these calipers are suitable and considered "Free" for the era of vehicle which in my case is a 69 Mustang!! infact Edco built a 6 piston caliper for stock cars around 1969 and could have been used on a Mustang or Camaro(or any other) race car back then!!
When determining the rules for "Historic Muscle Cars" using the T&C rules as our guide line we needed to define the brake caliper ruling a bit more accurate for better understanding, we found that all these calipers as mentioned above had something in common, they were all a "2 piece bolt together design" and "lug mounting style" so with the help of the H&C commission it was excepted that as long as the caliper was of this design and from a "historic" manufacture such as Wilwood this would be OK, so depending what your said vehicle is i think you'll find the Wilwood caliper is acceptable as a historic replacement part.
By using the words "must be of a 2 piece bolt together design and Lug mount style" instantly eliminated ALL modern Mono block and Radial mount calipers which are commonly used on more modernized race cars these days, and although this shouldn't be needed to be pointed out, it helped most understand the correct caliper package to use.
I had been in-touch with Wilwood some years ago and they said there GNIII 6 piston grand national, Superlite and Dynalite calipers are there original traditional caliper since the companies inception, never redesigned over the years just refined. There other caliper packages are more recent technology and cant be considered Historic(post 12/77) so shouldn't be used. On top of all this i find there calipers represent excellent value for money and i've never had any major problems, been on my Mustang for 9 years now and are stopping a heavy car.
Hope this helps
Dale M
nzeder
05-08-2013, 12:21 AM
Yes Dale that does help..
Cheers
Mike
Oldfart
05-08-2013, 01:56 AM
This is not correct Ray - the new fee structure came through at $240 for CODs but a number of people complained and through the efforts of the H&C Commission it was subsequently amended to $97.
As of last night the Motorsport site still showed $240! Change shows today.
Congratulations to our end of season award winners. The Awards dinner was last night with 94 attending. As usual, a fun night with the theme "Into The Red" so most attendees wore red, the background slide show from my own collection featured only red cars!
Convenor's Trophy (our top award) Chris Browne (Alfa) - for sportsmanship.
AES Series - Adam Jones (Ford Escort)
Arrow Wheels Series - Martin Day (Ford Escort)
Top Saloon - Paul Chisholm (VW Golf)
BMC Series - John Palmer (MGB)
Top Italian Car - John Nuthall (Alfa)
Although effectively a chocolate fish series, no points were disclosed before the awards dinner as all they are is a means to award donated trophies. In seventeen years, all major trophies above have been spread around and rarely has anyone ever won any of the above more than once. The one make trophies were awarded to:
Jaguar - Derek Moore
Alfa Romeo - Simon Mills
BMW - Peter Bromley
Datsun Z - Ricky Cooper
Ford - Colin Craig
MG - Todd Forsyth
Porsche - Tony Stansfield
Back in the country again... I haven't yet caught up with the team who deputised at the Ice Breaker but paid up registrations are over 50 already, for the new season.
Once again, our series runs in two groups but maybe after developments elsewhere, with the creation of several new classes, it is time to re-evaluate where we, as a group stand.
The advent of an historic race saloons grid is now a reality (and long overdue), that means that some of those cars we have allowed in that we all consider marginal, may now have a genuine place to race.
To reiterate our philosophy, which has now been in force for over 15 years, we have been pragmatic in allowing in marginal cars on the assumption that when there is sufficient interest for them to have a grid of their own, or, they revert to period, or, someone at least takes up the cudgels so to speak, we would then lose those cars and wish them good luck. If that didn't happen, then we would happily keep them.
Sometimes those offshoots survive and sometimes they don't. That is life - or at least motorsport.
Within the loosely described "Classic Arena", there are a number of orphaned cars, but as has been stated on more than one thread, driving standards are still the most important criteria of all. Pure historic cars driven like dodgems do not belong, but less pure cars driven with the correct attitude and spirit can be included in this class, within reason.
So there will be a fair bit of discussion over the next three months as to our future. The commercial aspect of any grid cannot be overlooked and we have to accept that small, loss making grids, have to be combined with other groups until they are viable.
Thankfully, there are enthusiasts around who can make a class successful, but over the years, it appears that the personalities involved are one of the keys to success and that includes those run by committees just as much as those run by a convenor. However, if the base philosophy is in any way fragile, or the rules inconsistent and not representative of the real wishes of the competitors, then the chances of success are somewhat limited.
So despite the occasional public lambasting, we are still viable but subtle changes are inevitable for survival and growth, as the availability of pre 1977 Euro saloons and sports cars shrinks, with many now as either as trailer queens or scrappers.
New season's fully paid up entries so far - still holding up well despite the various other class options available.
I wish this would stack in columns the way I'd intended and the way it looks when inputting...
8 Mark Parsons ARROW TRIUMPH TR7 V8
9 Martin Day ARROW FORD ESCORT
14 Adrian Hayman ARROW MG BGT V8
19 Kerry Chadderton ARROW PORSCHE 911SC
20 Geoff Sparkes AES TRIUMPH Dolomite Sprint
21 Bryce Platt AES PORSCHE 924 S
22 Peter Robinson ARROW BMW M3 ALPINA R
28 Michael Sexton ARROW FORD Escort Mk 1 RS2000
29 Mike Lucas AES DATSUN 260Z
30 Rod Hemmings AES TVR 3000M
31 Eddie York ARROW JAGUAR XJ40
33 Nick Wilcox AES MG F
34 Graeme Park AES PORSCHE 944S2
42 Des Redgwell AES VOLVO 242GT
44 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJS
47 Gary Baildon BMW
48 Ricky Cooper ARROW DATSUN 240Z
49 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
51 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD ESCORT
64 John Palmer AES MG BGT
65 Stewart Martel AES CITROEN BX16V
66 Todd Forsyth ARROW MG BV8
70 Ray Green AES MARCOS VOLVO 3L
82 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
87 David Brace ARROW BMW
88 Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
89 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 2
92 Brian Yates AES PORSCHE 924S
93 Ivan Selak ARROW FORD ESCORT
102 Robbie Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
103 Rob Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
104 John Ward ARROW FORD ESCORT
115 Chris Barendregt ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
117 John Sampson ARROW FORD CAPRI RS2600
120 John Munro ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
133 Bob Grove ARROW DATSUN 240Z
135 Don Roy AES MG BGT V8
139 Rob Berggren AES PORSCHE 944S2
142 Bruce Kirk AES VOLVO 142
150 Allan Brook AES MG BGT
173 David Herrick AES BMW 2002
181 Ron Findlay ARROW FORD PERANA
185 John Nuthall AES ALFA GTV 105
189 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 7
198 John Tomlin AES TRIUMPH 2500PI
213 Dave Mallin AES MG BGT
222 Bruce Jones AES FORD CAPRI
233 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
240 Earl Cruickshank ARROW DATSUN 240Z
246 Tony Olissoff ARROW ALFA SUD Ti
260 Ron Findlay ARROW DATSUN 260Z
279 Barry Hare ARROW ROVER VITESSE
280 Ken Williams AES MERCEDES 280CE
281 Paul Chisholm AES VW Golf GTI
295 Mal Chamberlain AES FORD ESCORT
317 Colin Craig AES FORD ESCORT MK II
331 John Hudson ARROW BMW 320
333 Rogan Hampson ARROW COBRA OHLSEN
339 Tony Sturm AES MG B SPORTS
400 David Frith AES Alfa Alfa 33 1.7
404 Andy Wallace AES BMW 2002Tii
431 Phil Josephs AES ROVER 220T
444 Derek Cecil
502 Steve Cowie ARROW ALFA GT
616 Dave Mallin ARROW MG BGT V8
711 Vishu Singh AES ALFA SPRINT
739 Grant Kern ARROW MG B V8 SPORTS
778 Rex Ferrall ARROW TRIUMPH TR8
783 Peter Gunter ARROW SKODA
833 Rob Hunkin AES ALFA 33
866 Francois Cronje AES RENAULT R8 GORDINI
888 Peter Hannaford AES FIAT 130 TC
891 Chris Hunkin AES ALFA 33
910 Simon Mills AES ALFA SUD
944 Paul Madeley ARROW PORSCHE 944T
51b Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
833b Edward Hunkin AES ALFA 33
8B Arthur Vowles ARROW ALFA DUETTO
AMCO72
10-23-2013, 03:34 AM
My word, ERC, what a list, and what variety. You must be mighty pleased. However, of the two cars that changed the face of saloon car racing, in NZ anyway, the Anglia and the Mini, there is not a one! Amazing. Maybe all the Anglias went to pre 65, and all the Minis to Mini 7, but it puts paid to the fear that all Classic saloon car grids would be overrun by these two cars. RIP the Mini and Anglia.
Not quite AMCO. There are at least two Anglias who haven't yet paid up for the new season (one is busy doing Targa) and one other Mini, also not yet paid up, though I do know the driver has had health issues even though he paid up last year.
Totally agree though. I can't understand why there aren't more of them running with us. Ditto Hillman Imps.
I was a huge fan of the UK's pre 57 racing and have yet to see here, Mk 2 Ford Zephyrs, Morris Minors, P4 Rovers, Standard 10's, Standard Ensigns and Mk 1 Jaguars racing. There have been a couple of Austin A35s, the Whitram MG Magnette and John Ure's MK7 Jag, but little else of that vintage.
I know Oldfart is trying to get a pre 1960's saloon grid off the ground and I sincerely hope he does. If required, we'd adjust our speed bar to include them - and shove a few more of the faster AES cars into the Arrows group!
We have just rejected one car as being a race car and the driver has accepted that with good grace, but is still running in another car anyway. We remain theoretically, a road car series, but that really means some interior trim, front lights, Dot rated road tyres. To enforce a 100% road legal rule would be pointless, given that so many are trailered anyway.
John McKechnie
10-23-2013, 04:56 AM
Ray- very stylish avatar you now have, did the OE bring it back?
Oldfart
10-23-2013, 06:44 AM
Thanks for the support Ray.
We are including the Pre 61 saloons at Roycroft, and Historics are very keen to add them to other events. They WILL be run under VCC regulations and to the guidelines I have posted on here under their own thread. So far I know of only 5 cars, but it is early days.
Ray- very stylish avatar you now have, did the OE bring it back?
Actually John, it is a logo I designed for our tenth season (eight years ago) and it appeared on a range of gear, from bucket hats, to polo shirts, sleeveless jackets and even on gear bags as an embroidered logo.
This was in the days when I had a half share in Chicane and managed to get a good deal on end of range clothing. It also appeared on the menu at the end of season awards dinner. Embroidering your gear bag means it is easily spotted on the luggage carousel.
This morning, I realised that I didn't have an Avatar so thought I'd use the ERC logo! Glad you approve.
Grant Ellwood
10-24-2013, 12:28 AM
My word, ERC, what a list, and what variety. You must be mighty pleased. However, of the two cars that changed the face of saloon car racing, in NZ anyway, the Anglia and the Mini, there is not a one! Amazing. Maybe all the Anglias went to pre 65, and all the Minis to Mini 7, but it puts paid to the fear that all Classic saloon car grids would be overrun by these two cars. RIP the Mini and Anglia.
Yes Gerard, where have all the Anglias gone, I have followed most of the UK historic events, just a few 105Es. Up here in the USA mid Atlantic states just one Broadspeed example racing yet there seems to be every other example of Brit cars running, more than I have seen in England really. Hope my Anglia inspires them somewhat when it races up here next season.
As at end of November 2013. I found the WYSIWYG option, but it limits the number of characters too much so back to this motley list.
6 Mal Clark ARROW ROVER P6 3500
8 Mark Parsons ARROW TRIUMPH TR7 V8
9 Martin Day ARROW FORD ESCORT
10 Neil Fraser ARROW LANCIA DELTA INTEGRALE
14 Adrian Hayman ARROW MG BGT V8
15 Phil Laird ARROW BMW 318IS
19 Kerry Chadderton ARROW PORSCHE 911SC
20 Geoff Sparkes AES TRIUMPH Dolomite Sprint
21 Bryce Platt AES PORSCHE 924 S
22 Peter Robinson ARROW BMW M3 ALPINA R
25 Rex Bentham AES MG B SPORTS
27 Paul Halford AES ALFA GUILIA GTA
28 Michael Sexton ARROW FORD Escort Mk 1 RS2000
29 Mike Lucas AES DATSUN 260Z
30 Rod Hemmings AES TVR 3000M
31 Eddie York ARROW JAGUAR XJ40
33 Nick Wilcox AES MG F
34 Graeme Park AES PORSCHE 944S2
42 Des Redgwell AES VOLVO 242GT
44 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJS
47 Gary Baildon AES BMW E30 318is
48 Ricky Cooper ARROW DATSUN 240Z
49 Chris Browne AES ALFA ALFASUD
51 Rob Berggren ARROW FORD ESCORT
60 Chris Fraser ARROW MORGAN PLUS 8
64 John Palmer AES MG BGT
65 Stewart Martel AES CITROEN BX16V
66 Todd Forsyth ARROW MG BV8
70 Ray Green AES MARCOS VOLVO 3L
71 Adam Jones AES FORD ESCORT GT
72 Karl Sentch AES DATSUN 240Z
82 Derek Moore ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
83 John Honore ARROW FERRARI 308GTB
87 David Brace ARROW BMW
88 Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
89 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 2
92 Brian Yates AES PORSCHE 924S
93 Ivan Selak ARROW FORD ESCORT
102 Robbie Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
103 Rob Halliday ARROW CORTINA LOTUS
104 John Ward ARROW FORD ESCORT
114 Russell Sykes AES MG BGT
115 Chris Barendregt ARROW PORSCHE 944S2
117 John Sampson ARROW FORD CAPRI RS2600
120 John Munro ARROW JAGUAR XJ6
133 Bob Grove ARROW CAPRI PERANA
135 Don Roy AES MG BGT V8
138 Ross Hannah AES MG MIDGET
139 Rob Berggren AES PORSCHE 944S2
142 Bruce Kirk AES VOLVO 142
150 Allan Brook AES MG BGT
158 Tony Vujnovich ARROW FORD PERANA
159 Glen Thompson ARROW MG B SPORTS
169 Neville Thompson AES MG BGT
173 David Herrick AES BMW 2002
179 Glen Thompson AES FORD Escort RS2000
181 Ron Findlay ARROW FORD PERANA
185 John Nuthall AES ALFA GTV 105
188 Paul Halford ARROW PORSCHE 911
189 John Ure AES JAGUAR MARK 7
198 John Tomlin AES TRIUMPH 2500PI
213 Dave Mallin AES MG BGT
220 Gordon Burr AES ALFA GT AM
222 Bruce Jones AES FORD CAPRI
229 Chris Browne AES ALFAROMEO ALFASUD TI
231 John Hudson AES BMW 2002
233 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
240 Earl Cruickshank ARROW DATSUN 240Z
246 Tony Olissoff ARROW ALFA SUD Ti
260 Ron Findlay ARROW DATSUN 260Z
274 Max van Maanen AES ALFA 33
279 Barry Hare ARROW ROVER VITESSE
280 Ken Williams AES MERCEDES 280CE
281 Paul Chisholm AES VW Golf GTI
289 John Ure AES JAGUAR XJ12
295 Mal Chamberlain AES FORD ESCORT
317 Colin Craig AES FORD ESCORT MK II
331 John Hudson ARROW BMW 320
333 Rogan Hampson ARROW COBRA OHLSEN
339 Tony Sturm AES MG B SPORTS
400 David Frith AES Alfa Alfa 33 1.7
404 Andy Wallace AES BMW 2002Tii
410 Gordon Burr ARROW FERRARI 308GT4LM
431 Phil Josephs AES ROVER 220T
444 Derek Cecil AES BMW E30 318
502 Steve Cowie ARROW ALFA GT
567 Gordon Burr ARROW FORD ESCORT
616 Dave Mallin ARROW MG BGT V8
711 Vishu Singh AES ALFA SPRINT
739 Grant Kern ARROW MG B V8 SPORTS
778 Rex Ferrall ARROW TRIUMPH TR8
783 Peter Gunter ARROW SKODA
833 Rob Hunkin AES ALFA 33
866 Francois Cronje AES RENAULT R8 GORDINI
888 Peter Hannaford AES FIAT 130 TC
891 Chris Hunkin AES ALFA 33
910 Simon Mills AES ALFA SUD
944 Paul Madeley ARROW PORSCHE 944T
400b Colin Craig AES ALFA 33
51b Bruce Manon ARROW FORD ESCORT
833b Edward Hunkin AES ALFA 33
891b Edward Hunkin AES ALFA 33
8B Arthur Vowles ARROW ALFA DUETTO
81 Richard McCarthy ARROW LOTUS 7 S4
88 registered, fully paid up drivers; a couple of slow payers; but currently representing 105 cars. Three drivers think they have number 8 or want number 8, but Mark Parsons legitimately has it! Next round - December 8th TACCOC Hampton Downs Outsource Christmas meeting, traditionally one of our better supported events.
The Andy Turpin XJS Jaguar has been purchased by Derek Moore. We are really sorry that Andy has given it up as he used to happily collect stop/go penalties for breaking our speed bar and would stick a black flag on the side of the car each time he got pinged! One of the nicest guys ever to have graced the series.
Spgeti
11-29-2013, 06:58 AM
Well, great field Ray....For the Italian lover Paul Halford in his real Alfa Giulia GTA and Gordon in his replica GTAm. Good luck for the weekend. Cheers Bruce
kiwi285
11-29-2013, 08:12 AM
ERC, I have sent you a PM.
As an adjunct to the thread on cars deemed to be "Hot Rods", maybe it is opportune to state one or two of the rules under which we run.
For the critics who believe we have no rules, nothing could be further from the truth, as we worked very closely with the late Ian Snellgrove to produce a set of rules that would be acceptable for a sanctioned series, before series were indeed sanctioned.
These are just a few paraphrased snippets.
Tyres must be DoT rated road tyres with a road legal tread depth.
Ideally, cars should be to a WoF standard but a WoF isn't required. (For obvious reasons, given the number of cars trailered.)
A passenger seat must be fitted, though it does not have to be a race seat nor match the driver's seat.
Carpets may be removed.
In Arrow Wheels, roll protection is mandatory.
In AES, roll protection is advised.
Harness type belts are mandatoory
In addition to MSNZ rules regarding rear lights in wet weather, ERC also requires working front lights in wet weather for all handicap races.
Interior door trims are required.
Rear seats may be removed particulary if made of foam as these constitute an extreme fire risk.
Cars ideally should conform to T & C but we do not make it compulsory.
A CoD is not required.
Invitations may be extended to cars that are outside our core of European cars.
As an invitation series, the committee reserves the right to withdraw any invitation if any car/driver combination is deemed to be outside of the spirit of the rules either by car or driver behaviour.
Now over 90 registered, paid up drivers.
Seems that the Living Legends HRC meeting is now a week later than on our original calendar. Now the last weekend of March.
A good turnout for the TACCOC meeting and despite the most erratic day's weather in a long, long time, most cars appeared to stay on the black stuff, though by the time of the last wet Arrows race, following on from the wetter HMC/U3L grid of just 4 cars, we only managed a modest 9 out of the original 21, with two of them - Ricky Cooper and John Sampson, doing duty in both races.
Thanks to TACCOC and Deb's team (doing double duty with Pukekohe on the same day) and all drivers and we wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a happy new year. See you at Taupo Jan 12th!
Seems that F1 have been casting a look at our series rules - but they obviously haven't read them all.
"Last round is now to be double points."
Then they need to drop the lowest score and finally, make all races handicaps!!!!
My job is nearly done...
RacerT
12-23-2013, 12:05 AM
Merry Christmas ERC Ray and Paula!
We may not always see eye to eye, (which is odd as we are the same height?), but at least we can discuss matters in an irrational manner.
All the best for the coming season.
Thanks Tony. Best wishes to Sue & Claire too.
Always enjoy our chats! Even those in a rational manner... Not sure when I'll be on track again though, but at least I can still take pics - and make a nuisance of myself with the keyboard, though some would prefer that I didn't!
As we have all proved, there is space within NZ motorsport for different philosophies and as long as each has sufficient support, none are inherently wrong.
We have just had registration number 100 so are coping well, but so many drivers seem now to have long term car problems - some repairs taking over a year - that getting 45 cars to the grid at Pukekohe Feb 22/23 was a great turnout.
However, it looks very much as though we will only run one grid next season, which at least means a profitable one for promoters and I hope a good one for spectators. One full grid has to be better than two half grids.
Despite the occasional negative comments from some quarters on our series, we put forward a suggestion or proposal to the Hampton Downs Festival Committee regarding 2015 event. We are pleased to say that they have accepted the series (one grid) for weekend two only. We sincerely hope the AMCO Mini will make a welcome return...
We are particularly pleased that the committee has also accepted our proposal of practice and a scratch race on day one, the remaining four races will be handicaps and we expect one from each day will be for series points.
We sincerely believe this will add value to the Festival on several counts and we applaud the committee for making a brave decision that may well attract criticism from some quarters - but we hope those who delight in criticising the Series can see the positive benefits.
Kiwiboss
03-10-2014, 09:54 AM
We have just had registration number 100 so are coping well, but so many drivers seem now to have long term car problems - some repairs taking over a year - that getting 45 cars to the grid at Pukekohe Feb 22/23 was a great turnout.
However, it looks very much as though we will only run one grid next season, which at least means a profitable one for promoters and I hope a good one for spectators. One full grid has to be better than two half grids.
Despite the occasional negative comments from some quarters on our series, we put forward a suggestion or proposal to the Hampton Downs Festival Committee regarding 2015 event. We are pleased to say that they have accepted the series (one grid) for weekend two only. We sincerely hope the AMCO Mini will make a welcome return...
We are particularly pleased that the committee has also accepted our proposal of practice and a scratch race on day one, the remaining four races will be handicaps and we expect one from each day will be for series points.
We sincerely believe this will add value to the Festival on several counts and we applaud the committee for making a brave decision that may well attract criticism from some quarters - but we hope those who delight in criticising the Series can see the positive benefits.
OH GOD, the death of NZ's only reasonably properly run historic Festival!! oh well!! let the rot set in i guess, hoping it wouldn't have happened so soon but had to come i presume!! Oh well, us true blooded racers have had our fun i guess, time to move on!!
No criticism about your series Ray, its just a inbreed no enforceable rules race series shouldn't be at this event when you have loads of other regular day to day meetings you can race at anytime!! i guess now you can push for other modern class's to join you!!
Park the Mustang, may as well start building my MK 1 Escort with a rover V8, 6 spd holinger, quick change diff, carbon fiber grease nipples and 20" wheels now!!!!!!!!!! and as long as the committee likes me im in, if not OH no! no entry allowed!!
Dale(i live in the wrong country for proper historic motor-sport)M
Andrew Metford
03-10-2014, 11:47 AM
Dale, when your "purist" class can produce a grid of 45 cars, then you can shout your mouth off. Until then I think you may want to quieten down a little. If all the other grids are half empty like yours, YOU will end up paying more to race YOUR car, and so will your not-so-many mates, because the event promotors need to cover their costs somehow, and we all know they can't do it from the gate takings. Unfortunately classic motor racing in NZ cannot afford to be so elitist as you desire, because there are simply not enough so-inclined racers. If popularity by grid numbers is any indication of the wider classic racing communities' choice of car spec, then your grid is well in the minority, and coming out with such dribble as post #50 will do nothing to encourage prospective entrants to join your grid, god forbid they have an out-of-era tyre valve!!!!
If you're honest with yourself, the average punter in the stands has got no idea whether your car or any other car on you grid is period correct or not, and I'm sorry to say they probably don't care either. Most of them are just not that into it, they just want to see old cars racing. Half of them probably don't even know that some of the cars on Rays' grid are quite far from original either, and that's because they don't go to count rivets, they go to see old cars racing.
You know first hand how hard it is to get a full grid because you haven't done it yet and don't look like doing it for a long time either, so you should be congratulating Ray on getting a full grid and getting an invite to the Festival, not shit-bagging him just because you don't like the cars or rules in his series.
I like your workmanship and presentation of your cars, a lot of people can take a leaf out of your book there, but your attitude towards other classes leaves a lot to be desired.
AMCO72
03-10-2014, 07:44 PM
I think Dale must have been having his period when he wrote that extraordinary piece that Jaffa has responded to. The points he raises would take me all day to respond to, but I will just say this. If he wants to pursue his dream of period correct cars racing together, thats fine, but like religion, don't shove it down my throat!!!! And as for saying, that the inclusion of cars, the like of which race in ERC's series, into the Festival is going to spell it's doom, well words fail me.
I don't particularly like hordes of BMW E30's either, but by golly they help to pay the bills and allow the rest of us to race at a reasonable cost.
Have been reading the biography of Walter Chrysler, and in his early working days on the railroads he learnt a very valuable lesson......'never reply to a letter while you are angry'. Could be a case in point here in post #50.
nzeder
03-10-2014, 08:23 PM
What I don't get is why bag the whole series/grids that ERC put together. Have you walked around the pits and check the cars in the AES and Arrows. These cars that cause so many issues with some you can cound on one maybe 2 hands. So that means the other 90% of paid up ERC members have hot rods too? Come on...really. As stated who cares we are only in this for the fun, well I am/will be, I work for wages in a non car related industry and things are tight these days so building a car takes time and I for one want to have fun on the track and if the cost go up due to grids size then it will mean less events that I will be able to enter. So lets have larger grids to keep our sport/hobby alive and if that means some hot rods race so be it.
Jac Mac
03-10-2014, 08:40 PM
Where do I go to get these fancy carbon fiber grease nipples, they are the one 'thing' I must have by the looks of it!:) might need them to keep my arm wrestling gear up to competitive standards...:):)
nigel watts
03-10-2014, 09:06 PM
Dale, when your "purist" class can produce a grid of 45 cars, then you can shout your mouth off. Until then I think you may want to quieten down a little. If all the other grids are half empty like yours, YOU will end up paying more to race YOUR car, and so will your not-so-many mates, because the event promotors need to cover their costs somehow, and we all know they can't do it from the gate takings. Unfortunately classic motor racing in NZ cannot afford to be so elitist as you desire, because there are simply not enough so-inclined racers. If popularity by grid numbers is any indication of the wider classic racing communities' choice of car spec, then your grid is well in the minority, and coming out with such dribble as post #50 will do nothing to encourage prospective entrants to join your grid, god forbid they have an out-of-era tyre valve!!!!
If you're honest with yourself, the average punter in the stands has got no idea whether your car or any other car on you grid is period correct or not, and I'm sorry to say they probably don't care either. Most of them are just not that into it, they just want to see old cars racing. Half of them probably don't even know that some of the cars on Rays' grid are quite far from original either, and that's because they don't go to count rivets, they go to see old cars racing.
You know first hand how hard it is to get a full grid because you haven't done it yet and don't look like doing it for a long time either, so you should be congratulating Ray on getting a full grid and getting an invite to the Festival, not shit-bagging him just because you don't like the cars or rules in his series.
I like your workmanship and presentation of your cars, a lot of people can take a leaf out of your book there, but your attitude towards other classes leaves a lot to be desired.
Well said JAFA. I'm a spectator & agree with you 100%
Well said JAFA. I'm a spectator & agree with you 100%
As a spectator, I have to agree with the sentiments of those commenting on this thread about the size of fields in "classic" car racing. Unfortunately Mr Mathers, having period correct racing, and cars specific to an era in a country the size of NZ, and providing a grid full of cars is a very tall order. If you detest the inclusion of the ERC classes so passionately perhaps an International Vehicle Passport and a trip to FIA style events may be more to your taste?
It is my opinion that the majority of spectators want to see full grids, of "classic" cars racing, and levels of performance that provide a spectacle for the paying punter, and pleasure for the enthusiasts competing.
Thanks for the support guys.
We can't produce a large grid of noisy spectacular period correct V8s but there is more to classic racing than a noisy V8.
I hope the guys with the two Renault Gordinis run, as trying to keep those fragile, scarce, Frog cars on the track, is much more difficult than a Mustang, where every part is still available. Hot Rods? I don't think so. Are Mal Clark's Rover, Skidmark Parson's TR8, or Paul Halford's Porsche Hot Rods? Is my Marcos or Rod Hemming's TVR, AMCO's Mini, Derek Moore's XJS, any of the Alfa 33s and Suds? Arthur's Alfa, John Sampson's Capri? Brian Yates Porsche? Peter Robinson, Pete Bromley, John Hudson, Zac Lawrence BMWs? Just check out the list earlier and tell us which cars are Hot Rods. Oh, I started a thread for that some time ago didn't I.
Just for the record Dale, where did you get the idea that there were no enforceable rules? Are you even aware that over 50 cars have not been allowed to join the series and there are others who have been banished? Have you even read the series rules, which were initially drawn up with the full co-operation of the late Ian Snellgrove and checked over by a lawyer?
Just because one grid is less pure (in your eyes) does not mean that any other Festival class has to change, so why the rant? Tell us again just how many HMC cars ran at the pre Christmas TACCOC meeting? And how many of those were already running in the ERC Classes anyway?
Part of our pitch to the Festival committee was that if there were 10,000 spectators at the Festival, 9,500 of them would never have seen the ERC cars racing at other events.
crunch
03-10-2014, 10:21 PM
Well said JAFA. I'm a spectator & agree with you 100%
Well indeed...hasn't Dale's post from out of left field sparked up the forum??
Once you manage to get over the unusual nature of it, and I assuming his account wasn't hacked...I read it again.
I can understand people becoming very emotive and making such comments when they are talking about their passion, what drives them in this sport. We all do it on here time-to-time.
What I can say is that MSNZ applauds the HMC series for what it is doing. They are trying to preserve history, and this is part of the mSNZ strategic plan. As yes; MSNZ are helping him in many respects because it is what all the members every year at AGCM tell the Historic Commission is it's role. HMC are not alone in heading down the purist route persay, we have Historic Sports Sedans, Formula Atlantic and Shellsport Revival all attempting the same thing...to preserve cars in the tech. spec they were when they run at the "forefront" of motorsport in NZ. It's a huge undertaking and I am impressed that people that on the challenge.
On the other hand we have the successful over a long period of time ERC series. It caters for many of our members that cannot/do not want to run a period historic car. It also has an integral place in our motorsport framework.
Then we have circuits and promoters that primarily need to ensure the venue remains so all these cars have an active museum to play in. So when such a successful meeting as the Festival is created and continues to be such a success, every one wants to be part of it, and so we should. It is a showcase of our Historic motorsport...and commercial realities tend to blur what that is.
Many years ago at a Forum in Auckland I asked the meeting to tell me the difference between a club car and a T&C car. It wasn't aimed at anyone or any series. No real answer emerged, and maybe still wouldn't today. From my circuit racing career, most of the ERC cars are what I would call club cars, such as what I had that use to race at clubmans race meetings. But that was 25 years ago, and clubmans race meetings in the North Island at least; seem to be a thing of the past (due to commercial costs of hiring a circuit?). interestingly IN THE SOUTH, cLUBMANS MEETINGS STILL GO STRONG AND THE ONES I HAVE VIEWED HAVE A LoT OF CARS I WOULD PRESUME WOULD FIT nicely into ERC. (Sorry, hit the caps lock button for a moment)
So a long winded way of saying I understand what Dale is trying to say, and I understand why Ray's baby the ERC is in existence. Both are catering to needs that competitors and the sport wants. I guess the only ground that is the issue is where do they play and at what type of meeting. At the moment that is really up to the promoter and circuit owners.
Central Muscle Cars are not an Historic class and never will be, they are modern technology in old clothes, but does the spectator know that...or even care?
Ray tells me that quite a few of his cars wouldn't get a COD (many have one) so is that a line between club cars and H&C cars? I think that is part of the reason COD's were instigated 30 odd years ago, does it still fit today?
In the end; Dale may I suggest you change the gin you are drinking as it affects your spellin' in post #50 and try to have a less stressful day at work. And everyone else just take the comments for what they are, a non-personal summary of one persons view of historic motorsport.
Look forward to seeing both Ray and Dale (and others) in Auckland on the 18th :cool:
Thanks Crunch. The CoD issue has been around for a while now and the fact that two thirds of our cars do not have one does not mean that most would not qualify.
Classic racing as opposed to Historic (and even Thoroughbred) racing may need to be defined and I have written to Crunch on that score.
Historic cars or those built to period rules are by default, also Classics. However, those deemed Classic may not be deemed Historic and we see our grid as Classic and Thoroughbred, not Historic.
Historic cars may well NEED a CoD, or a documented provenance, a Classic car may need a different sort of endorsement or it may need nothing other than the acceptance of either the Series or race promoters.
We have always supported the HMC concept and still do, but we also believe that what we run is also acceptable to the majority.
I accept that one or two of our cars are indeed marginal, but if our entry for the Festival is looking to be oversubscribed, it will be an opportunity to tighten up the eligibility criteria, having then reached a level that allows us to do so. Just remember that for the last few years, we had two grids because there were too many cars for one grid and only BMW have come close to that in the broad classic arena. HMC has been propped up by the U3L grid, all of whom already race in other series anyway. It has not brought out a single 'new' classic to the grids.
We are never complacent and over the years have massaged our rules and eligibility to ensure longevity and the very fact that every points race is a handicap sends a very clear message that this is indeed chocolate fish racing.
Dale, you'll be more than welcome at our May 10th awards dinner, as will any other HMC driver (you might even round up enough for a table of your own) and you'll probably enjoy yourself, but be aware, no one is safe from having the mickey taken out of them!... In fact, in recognition the support and your hard work in the classic arena, you and John McKechnie are invited as guests of the series.
Frosty5
03-11-2014, 12:25 AM
OH GOD, the death of NZ's only reasonably properly run historic Festival!! oh well!! let the rot set in i guess, hoping it wouldn't have happened so soon but had to come i presume!! Oh well, us true blooded racers have had our fun i guess, time to move on!!
WOW Dale, I'd love some of that bait you used when I go fishing, you hooked some real biggin's there!! However at the end of the day people just want to race and have fum and that should be the focus. Sure, have the period correct vehicles (just love 'em)and the likes of ERC's classes but please lets not get to precious about it all. It's more fun on top of the dirt than below it!!!!!
Dave Graham
Frosty5
03-11-2014, 12:26 AM
OH GOD, the death of NZ's only reasonably properly run historic Festival!! oh well!! let the rot set in i guess, hoping it wouldn't have happened so soon but had to come i presume!! Oh well, us true blooded racers have had our fun i guess, time to move on!!
WOW Dale, I'd love some of that bait you used when I go fishing, you hooked some real biggin's there!! However at the end of the day people just want to race and have fum and that should be the focus. Sure, have the period correct vehicles (just love 'em)and the likes of ERC's classes but please lets not get to precious about it all. It's more fun on top of the dirt than below it!!!!!
Dave Graham
AMCO72
03-11-2014, 12:27 AM
It is one thing being passionate about a branch of motorsport, and quite another making derogatory comments about other peoples efforts to get a different class of motoracing accepted.
Dales outburst was quite extraordinary, and he meant every word, as we all know on here how he views cars that he considers should not be racing in Classic events. How do I know he was serious......because he omitted to put those 3 little letters after what he had written........LOL. He has been a regular user of LOL in the past when he has made some tongue-in-cheek comment, so would have to assume that post #50 was not tongue-in-cheek.
Because the cars that he allows into his fields are correct, though I wouldn't know one from the other, he should not really be racing against, or with, cars that dont fall into that category. But as he can only field about 8 or 10 'genuine' HMC cars at the moment, he invites the under3 litre cars in to bolster up the grid. Well I think at the next festival, those under 3 litre cars should compete in ERC's class as most of them would fit. ERC might be in the enviable position of having an over subscribed grid and be able to pick and choose who competes and who doesn't.
That leaves HMC struggling along with a tiny grid, and even with all the bluff and bluster of a V8 would still be pretty boring to watch. .....a high speed freight train.
We could say 'stuff the spectators', we are doing this for our own enjoyment, and who cares what they think, but this I believe would be a recioe for disaster. We are playing to an audience and we actually quite like it.
So Dale just tone your comments down, follow your dream, but just remember, that HMC is NOT the star turn on the track, YET. When you can field a grid of 40 cars I might be persuaded to change my mind, but I cant see that happening anytime soon.
Shoreboy57
03-11-2014, 12:34 AM
As a spectator, I'm glad to see Ray's proposal was supported by NZFMR and I'm looking forward to seeing the ERC series run at the festival. Maybe its not 'historic', but the class adds variety and depth. Both are, IMHO, needed for the festival across two weekends.
Howard Wood
03-11-2014, 12:59 AM
Ray's series promotion/ information thread seems to have been hijacked!
Maybe what we need is a separate thread on the direction the NZFMR (and other top drawer or wannabe top draw historic events) should be headed. In that regard, (shock horror and I seem to be the only one) I agree with Dale that in a perfect world the Festival should be trying to set a higher standard. To be consistent, in that same perfect world I don't think the Festival should be including the BMW series despite my being a regular competitor in that series.
The real issue is: Are there enough historically correct cars available to run the Festival as a "Period Correct" event?
I believe the answer is "yes", however for whatever reason, there are not enough prepared or able to enter the event. Why?
For me, I would pretty much give up every other event if thats what it took to do the Festival but clearly this is not the case for others. The reality is that the organisers need the revenue stream from full grids and if the only full grids they can get are from BMW and Ray's series then they have no alternative. Of course, in my view the status of the event will then inevitably fall away to where it is just another race meeting and the opportunity is gone.
At this point I wonder how many entries from Ray's series will be prepared to pay the (much higher) entry fees for NZFMR when for the same money they could do several events?
Catch 22, you betcha!
AMCO72
03-11-2014, 02:18 AM
Howard. I think Rays thread is getting plenty of promotion/info from the discussions going on here, not high-jacked.
Why do you say that the Festival would be down graded if the likes of ERC's group was let in? The Festival to my way of thinking is not promoted as an Historic Racing event, but as a Themed Event.......McLaren, Hulme, Ferrari etc, and the racing on the day happens to be with 'Historic' type cars......ie not super tourers, drifters etc. So apart from stuff about the featured driver/make, the rest of the meeting is, as you put it, just another race meeting, wrapped up in the hype of the Festival theme. The theme is of course the drawcard I think, and the spectating public know by now what sort of racing to expect.
True, the cost is considerable, but you said yourself you would be prepared to forego all other meetings to do the Festival if that is what it takes. I still think the 2 weekends in a row on the same track is not the best idea. We did go to Puke the first year but since then has all been a double banger at HD. I know there is a big cost shifting around to other tracks.....Taupo, Manfield, and that the organisers want to maximise their profits from one venue, and this is probably the sticking point........ back to the old dollars and cents again.
I am led to believe that the entry fee for the one weekend for us would be $295. Given that it is 50% higher than a two day weekend but with 50% more track time, it is not expensive and I doubt that it will dramatically affect the numbers entering.
We did poll all our drivers before approaching the committee and had massive support and for it to be a points round.
If any of our valued ERC regulars are suffering any form of financial hardship then I am more than happy to come to an assist arrangement. Heck, we supported Barry Algie at the Festival yet we had no ties whatever to him or his car! JAFA (and the family) also supported Barry to an even greater degree, with financial and practical assistance and this is what motorsport is all about, getting cars onto the track.
I believe that there are overseas entrants expected in at least three classes and the two weekend format works well enough as long as those who have travelled from overseas can race both weekends and we locals are more than happy just running one. If the Australian Muscle cars are coming over, then they won't need the support of the U3L group anyway.
Howard, you are always welcome to join our group as currently, I think you may be the only U3L who ISN'T part of the group. Dennis McConnell (Ford Escort) was the only other and he has just paid up and joined us.
I'm too not sure what the future is for the U3L group other than racing at events to which we are not invited.
Howard Wood
03-11-2014, 03:00 AM
I have always seen the NZFMR as an attempt to emulate the Goodwood Revivals or more realistically Philip Islands of the "Historic Motor Racing" genre. As I support this concept I have always supported the event in the hope or expectation that little ol' NZ can maintain such an event on its calendar. Not just maintain it but grow it too.
As you correctly point out, it is expensive and takes up 2 weekends right in the middle of summer holidays when sane people should be out boating but for me if it remains true to that ideal I will try to continue to support it. By the same token, if it becomes (to my mind) just another race meeting frankly I have better things to do at that time of year.
There are still some of us who would like to see the NZFMR flourish as a true Historic event but unless the potential entry pool supports the event it can't survive in that form. This is not to denigrate Ray's series, the BMW series or any other but to my mind, once the Festival looses its lustre it will be hard to bring it back.
To run a meeting such as NZFMR funding is needed not only from competitors and spectators but also sponsors and that is probably the real reason for the "themes". As I understand it, BMW helped in 2013 and Gulf are behind next year's Ganley theme, I suspect Ferrari less so this year and think that Porsche will be a hard nut to crack for funding the following year.
From my point of view, the Festival as others have pointed out is a bit special, because of the theme and also the massive amount of work that goes into promoting it. Coming as it does in the middle of our summer is pretty good as it is also a definite attraction for those who would be in the middle of winter.
Having been to Goodwood's Festival and also the Revival meeting, they are more than World Class, but they are not running bog standard Austin A35s and Standard 10's either! Goodwood's location attracts not just the Brits but also the Europeans and a fair smattering of Americans.
I have no idea what the entry fees are but I do know that to enter the Monaco Historics for example you'd be spending the equivalent 10 Festival weekend fees.
Much as we accept the Goodwood stuff as ideal, remember that they have also had the "Wacky Racers", drag cars, genuine Hot Rods and a host of other stuff from left field - and much of it is not at all purist at their Festival (the hillclimb) and it never claimed to be.
The Revival race meeting is a bit more purist but they are now blighted with professional race drivers running far too hard in other people's precious racers, so good that it all is, we can never emulate Goodwood, we have to do the best we can with what we have got.
When 18 of our drivers approached me and explained why they did NOT enter the HD Festival, it was a case of either lie down or stand up and be counted.
Before I finally hang up my helmet or pull out of organising the series, I'd like to think that we have made a positive and enduring difference to NZ motorsport. If others see it as a negative, that is their choice, but we do not need to erode the Festival ideals. Any class finishing with just 5 cars on the track at the conclusion of racing, is not a good look and is no Goodwood.
RacerT
03-11-2014, 04:00 AM
My knowledge of the Festival is quite intimate, so I can explain some of the philosophy behind the decisions that have been made.
The aim was definitely to raise the bar with the range of historic and classic cars, try to import exotic international machinery and to run a 'proper' field of cars as is run at oversees historic and vintage meetings. This was to define certain classes and race periods and have scratch racing, thereby giving the enthusiast an insight into a typical field of cars that would have been seen in that period. So if it was 1960, the cars would be period correct and reflect the performance of the cars in period. Hence the control of modifications was important to get right, so that as they were, so would they be now.
Certainly we aspired to the "Goodwood of the South" (a theme that Highlands has now pinched!), but have found that Kiwi's aren't really into a lot of that Pommy dressing up stuff, fancy marquees or cars being exactly period specification correct (unless someone else is paying for it). For instance we had a mutiny when we tried to make everyone have a marquee with a sign board for the public to read - what $300 extra, no we're quite happy with drab thanks and a gypsy camp look with mismatched Esi-ups.
Running the ERC series at the Festival is a pragmatic approach, just as the BMW E30 and open classes were at the BMW Festival.
The feedback that Ray received from his ERC members showed that they wanted their normal format of scratch and handicap races, so we are willing to oblige with that. They have also asked to run the second weekend only, so the first weekend can accommodate many of the ERC cars in a pre 1978 field if the competitors want to race two weekends. This should increase the fields of both weekends.
The entry fee of $295 is for 3 days, which when considered against a normal race meeting of two days (for $230) is actually cheaper!
We are working hard to bring in 20- 30 racing cars from overseas for the next Festival, so let's celebrate the Festivals as something special each year and work together to achieve this. Tony Roberts
Shoreboy57
03-11-2014, 05:37 AM
"so let's celebrate the Festivals as something special each year and work together to achieve this".
Nicely said Mr Roberts
Spgeti
03-11-2014, 06:40 AM
Go for it Ray....I look forward to seeing cars like the Renault R8 Gordini's etc. We need variety to add to the grids. The cars are not that far off being period correct...go for it.
CobraV8
03-12-2014, 11:08 AM
The best race event I have ever been to is the leadfoot festival run by Rod Millen. Part of the reason for it being the best is the variety of vehicles and people that are involved. We are all out to have fun, look at some cool cars, and chat to like minded people.
I have been involved in classics, club racing, and all are fun. I see a place for standard car racing, modded cars etc, they all have their place.
The only thing I can say in reply to Dales outburst is that it confirms that I'd never be a part of that series (not that I'd be welcome in my cars). An attitude of being better than everyone else just doesnt have a place in a fun sport.
crunch
03-12-2014, 01:16 PM
An attitude of being better than everyone else just doesnt have a place in a fun sport.
Unfortunately that attitude is prevalent throughout all branches of our sport.
Dale doesn't see himself as being better than anyone else. If you think that then you don't know the man. It was a case of where you should wait 5 minutes before you press the send button....:o
crunch
03-12-2014, 08:14 PM
I have been involved in classics, club racing, and all are fun. I see a place for standard car racing, modded cars etc, they all have their place.
.
Agree
Like Tony's comment earlier, there are times when pragmatic decisions have to be made for the betterment of the sport, and that also means that a touch of realism creeps in and overrides purity.
From my perspective, the cars that do not conform to our original "Euro, pre 1977 and run-ons, effectively to a road-going specification" have added colour and variety. These include the Datsun 240Zs, as we realised very early on that they had no suitable place to race; Neil's ex-Segedin Mustang (this was pre HMC remember); the six cylinder Holden Torana formerly run by Andre Mortimer as logically, as a fully trimmed 6 cylinder car, it was outclassed by the V8s in the other Muscle car Classes.
We also had a huge respect for Mike John's Targa and in its early days, it had some great, individual cars but the drivers were effectively limited to running them at Targa events. We looked long and hard at Jo Hill's Herald V8 and realised that here was a spectacular car/driver, who wanted to race at classic events. Whilst some (most, outside the series) were aghast at us allowing it to run, it was a group driver decision who saw it as adding colour and a valued addition.
As it happens, it has never actually run at any of our meetings, but our rules do allow a limited number of such cars per season subject to various limitations - and before anyone says that it was self interest on my part, these rules were written well before I started my own project.
Ironically, because I now have the coveted LVVTA plate, I still can't get the car on the road due to the regulations regarding the repaired panel work needing certifying... That also means I can't race it in our series as the rules state that such cars have to be road legal with a current WoF and registration!
With dwindling supplies and increasing values of pre 1977 cars, many owners have opted to not compromise the classic purity by the fitment of roll cages and have retired their cars. In many cases, they have opted to race a more modern classic, not for success on the track, but for reliability and easier spares and servicing.
As I have pointed out before, we enforce clean driving standards and although accidents unfortunately do happen, the standard of driving is in most respects, far more important than car purity.
With one or two drivers pushing the envelope, yes, rules may well be more rigidly enforced, but what we end up with is still a good sized grid. Once again, spectators do not know from looking at the programme, exactly what is under the bonnet and many of us in our youth always assumed that the car packing a 3,000cc power-plant, should be much quicker than one packing 1600cc, but as you grow up, you realise that is not the case, whether modified or bog standard. That is why Phil Foulkes MG Midget was faster than all the MGBs.
Part of the fun of classics is that you know the cars are not identical and it adds a dimension that the modern control classes do not have.
fullnoise68
03-12-2014, 10:41 PM
In reference to Howards comments about maintaining the `calibre' of the Festival, I agree with him and I also understand where Tony is coming from with the need to get more bums on seats, or victims through the gate. While there are those on here that don`t `get' what HMC is about - and no, it`s not all about Dale - those of us who run in HMC also enjoy celebrating a very popular era of NZ motorsport history, and this is quite obvious by the punters interaction with each of us in HMC at each Festival. I can tell the critics now, with a larger group of the Aussies bringing their cars to next years Festival, and quite a few new NZ HMC cars, it`ll be great to watch.
I know a few of the guys that run in the ERC class, and I`m not bagging the class either, but actual reality and commercial reality are what set different events apart which is what Tony was getting at. If the Festival is to become something bigger and better we need to get more companies like Gulf involved annually, whereby the Festival becomes part of their annual budget spend, and other companies will follow suit. As far as sponsor identity versus sponsor spend goes, that can be as subtle or as imposing relative to their annual spend, whether as a class sponsor or an event sponsor. In HMC for example, Health House have supported us on a small scale, whereas if they were to stump up for the cost of our marquee each Festival, and thus saving each of us an additional cost, then their commercial involvement with HMC would also increase. If this was duplicated with each of the other classes, the whole event becomes more professional in appearance, organisation of each class is easier, and both the punters and potential sponsors will enjoy it more. It`s not about pushing each classes wheelbarrow, it`s about keeping the Festival as a good, well run, commercially viable event while still having the participants understanding what we are all there for.
AMCO72
03-13-2014, 12:42 AM
I get a bit tired of being continually accused of 'not getting' what HMC is all about. I think we all appreciate what that class is trying to do, and the driving force behind it.
For the rest of us, the great unwashed on here, we are happy to be a part of the scene with our scruffy old jalopies, and just being able to compete with all this illustrious machinery around us.
I might point out, that NONE of the HMC cars ever looked as immaculate as they do now, in their day. Just take a look at the old clips of them racing, and frankly they are heaps of junk held together with number 8 wire and rivets. But they did the business. And that 'doing the business' is what made then so popular.......what NZ motoracing was all about, and we are continually being told that this is what we are trying to emulate. What we have now is a sort of mobile concours.
If what HMC is doing turns out to be the right thing, and the rest of us continue on our way blissfully ignoring all the advise given, well then we have only ourselves to blame. It may come that presentation, organisation, and dedication will count for everything, and this will mean that a lot more cars than at present will be parked up.........for ever.
I do remember the 'mutiny' at the Bruce McLaren festival when the competitors were told/ordered to hire a marque at $300 a pop. We virtually told the organisers to get stuffed, and that we would supply our own shade, hence the gypsy look of the pits. I don't think it detracted from the atmosphere of the event at all, quite the opposite in fact, and that event did have atmosphere. Maybe it was because it was the first one, and the calibre of the chap we were celebrating, but subsequent festivals have never quite captured that buzz again.
We are not Goodwood, never will be, so just lets do it our way and be thankful that we dont have to pay Goodwood fees!
Agree with both the above posts. When the Formula Juniors for example were jammed into a crowded marquee, for spectators, you felt as though you were intruding and had to be very careful you didn't accidently trip and fall onto a body panel that had been removed. It was also very difficult to take decent photographs with everything jammed in together.
Having a garage at Hampton Downs anyway, I certainly wasn't going to pay $300 for a marquee as well! With individual Ezi-ups, the owners and cars were far more approachable and access to support vehicles was also a lot easier and it was easier to get the car out as and when you wanted.
Remember that entry to the Goodwood Revival pits is limited to Goodwood Members only and not to the great unwashed. The joy of NZ Classic events is that paddock and pits access is free and overseas visitors particularly, love that Kiwi/Aussie laid back approach rather than the multitude of "jobsworths" and security staff at European events.
That laid back attitude transcends to some of the classes and that is no bad thing as AMCO points out, cars in their heyday were often extremely tatty and now those with patina even if not 100% original, are accepted instead of being frowned upon.
ERC does about six rounds a season but the cars often do several other events and that is as it should be as it gives them an opportunity to race with or against different drivers/cars and on different tracks. Who would have it any other way?
AMCO72
03-13-2014, 01:59 AM
There was also an appalling fire risk in those big marques, and no way to get cars out should there be a conflagration. Yes I know that spare fuel cans etc had to be stored outside, in a big dump by the door, making for an even bigger Guy Fawkes should a naked flame be present.
Was having a chat to Ernie Nagamatsu, owner driver of 'Old Yeller', and he, jokingly, said.......'I hope no one is smoking in here!!!!!!!
fullnoise68
03-13-2014, 02:39 AM
I`m terribly sorry Gerald, I thought we were talking about the NZ Festival of Motor Racing, you must be talking about another failed Festival of the past ....Sweetwaters. What was that old saying, `adventure before dementia'. As for the old cars being heaps of junk, that says a lot about your complete lack of respect and knowledge. Tell Ray Stone his workmanship was shit and see how you go. You for one don`t `get' what HMC is about -end of story. It`s not about being elite, it`s about maintaining a standard worthy of the Festival having some national and international credibility, not some broken arse excuse book for why it's not working. It costs a hell of a lot less to be a spectator at the Festival than it does to be a competitor, but as it`s only once a year people need to get in a financial position to be part of it. If I remember correctly, when I raced in the Nissan Mobil 500 series it was about $1800 entry fee...... but then again it was a pretty special event.
Jac Mac
03-13-2014, 02:52 AM
Hooray for posts 77/78/79, said everything I wanted too, but a damn sight more eloquently.. have a look at the Bill Pottinger thread, .... when joe public could get very close to the motorsport hero's of the day, if your trying to recreate history then do it the Kiwi way, ...Don't try to be the UK or USA in NZ, that's not what we are, many overseas folk I know who have been making trips down under for the SFOS series for over a decade now come back each year just for that reason alone.
AMCO72
03-13-2014, 03:38 AM
Don't know quite how to reply to your post #80 fullnoise, but I'll give it a go.
Sweetwaters........never been, but you may be able to enlighten me.
After my comment on the presentation of the HMC cars today, what I meant to say was that the cars of old LOOKED like heaps of junk, and I stand by that.
Where did I say the Festival was not working? What I said was, if you put your glasses on, was that festivals subsequent to the McLaren one didn't have the BUZZ that it had......an air of expectation and excitement perhaps. If you had competed in it, and the ones following you would know that, I think.
Dementia, yes, could hit anytime.......but I probably wont know!!
I definitely DO get what HMC is all about......end of story.
Ah well......Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword.
fullnoise68
03-13-2014, 03:40 AM
Jac Mac, I`m not comparing or saying try and make it a Goodwood, and I`ve been to plenty of various race meetings in the USA. What I am saying is it`s one of NZs premier historic race meetings, in a unique environment, lets set a standard. I didn`t mention restricted access areas or any of that other bullshit. It is a simple case of you can`t please everyone.......
Kiwiboss
03-13-2014, 04:01 AM
Fantastic feedback everyone, guess I’ve cause a bit of a ruckus, Crunch is rite i should have toned it down a bit before hitting the keyboard, sorry to all those offended!! First I need to apologise to the Festival directors as I’ve probably offended them the most but Tonys posting has shown their intent and direction. Although i have an opinion the out come of the festival will always be in the hands of the Festival directors and not by anyone else and they are the ones that see the commercial reality$.
I've only bought this up because i don't see this for the betterment of this fantastic historic event, but that’s my opinion and i respect others may not agree as shown(yes even you Gerald, LOL). Ray, i apologise if i've offended you as i don't mean to do so!! but i see ERC as a mish mash group were rules seem to be more guides lines than offering up historic values in the vehicles, if you can line all 100 plus cars up and walk down the line, rule book in hand, tech auditor beside you and every single car meets the rules i'll forever shut up and apologise even further, you see with ERC having its 30(there abouts)year history and 100 plus field and your immense organisational skills its easy to be critical about a new group only two and half years in and go har har, WERE ARE THE NUMBERS, numbers are never the excuse and are cheap and yes I know you show concern about commercial reality, but just letting EVERYONE IN is easy but thats just the friggen problem with “historic racing” in this country, we may only have had 10 HMC cars at the Festival but what we had(and others saw it too) was a 100 percent correct legal grid(to HMC/MSNZ T&C rules) we even turned one away because he hadn't down sized his wheels!! TUFF, hardly as he had 18 months to do so, i viewed him as not serious and taking the micky, add numbers, hell yeah thats the friggen easy bit!! as for HMC been a hot shot class yeah rite(F5000 maybe), and certainly not how i see it as we are no more important than any other historic group! hell i've even heard that we're a bunch of V8 boggens!! just some good old historic saloon racing with conforming cars will do thank you!!
Howard, you are a racer and still currently racing so you're paying the price and that means i value your comments, to me you are so correct and if the festival becomes a watered down ho hum affair like so many others in this country the effort to turn up will become less desirable, i for one really don't wanta see that happen and have thrown my support in behind the organisers!! and as mentioned you been a racer and currently racing which begs the question, HOW many have made comments on this posting that are actually currently racing and have done so this year? or even raced last year? or have ever raced? probably will never race? or a gunna race one day but don't wanta pay the price? you see there seems to be two sides of the fence here, those that watch and couldn't care less what's on the grid, under the bonnet, how legal the cars are but just wanta see some ACTION, and then there's the RACER, the guy actually DOING IT, the guy PAYING for it along with all the sacrifices that goes with it, HE’S the guy i respect and wanta look after so rules must apply to keep it all equal the best you can!! so 10 HMC cars all legal, all on 15" wheels just like the old days but one wants in on 16's!! not on my watch!! now bear in-mine this is just one example but i mean to carry on how we've started and if that means suffering in numbers initially until the group grows and getting lambasted for it so be it, if i get it wrong and all stay away i'll fold up shop and call it a day but while im still breathing and with petrol in my veins I will do everything in my power to make it work!
This years event was one of the best we had and the best racing for both groups, all the U3L historic saloon guys had a ball and enjoyed it immensely, that’s what they told me!! with the speed difference everyone got along and all received a trophy(for 2nd place) in keeping with the enthusiasm and sprit of what we are doing this for!! 2 weekends of hard racing and only ONE minor incident, too me that just doesn't get any better!! as for the Amco mini Ray! how will you deal with it when it smashes into 3 of your ERC cars and gets called "just a racing incident" my decision may not have been popular but our racing/incident ratio this year proved i was correct in the call made!! what call would YOU make? because I agree with you that driving standards and vehicle damage should not be tolerated, historic racing is NOT a racing series so no need for this!!
Last week i had the privileged to view the graph of a poll taken from this year’s Festival, now considering this year’s event was Ferrari and some voters may not even know what a historic muscle car or historic saloon car is? HMC and HSC polled extremely well and not far under F5000 and third overall when other groups barely registered, it was quite interesting but did show that the MAYBE the punters can tell the difference in the cars? how they present themselves? according to their historic values? as controlled by the regulations! hmmm. So along with our tech auditors and HMC management we will make sure HMC as a class sticks to this and stays that way, sure we’ll suffered in numbers but I see it as a short term PAIN for a long term GAIN, the standard must be set TODAY so in 10 years(when im 64) and hopefully still racing maybe just maybe we’ll have that 40 car grid just for you Gerald so you hang in there MATE, I’ll even come pick you up from the old folks home(LOL)!!
And finally Ray, I'd personally like too welcome your ERC group onboard for next years Festival, remember this not some ho hum event so please bend a little and look at the group marque as it’s a worthy cost allowing the Festival organisers to offer up a professional looking meeting they(we) so desire, hell for a small fee we all get to race at someone else multi-million dollar complex all with-in spitting distance of most of NZ’s population, THAT my friends just doesn’t get any better and I consider it affordable.
Dale M
AMCO72
03-13-2014, 04:30 AM
Dale, I think I can confidently predict that I wont be around in 10 years, so that has saved you a trip to the Rest Home!!
You couldn't have made any money today after writing that post, and I am glad that you took Walter Chryslers advice and didn't write it while you were mad. Perhaps you were composing it all night.
Also good to see LOL back...........makes a big difference to how I view your posts.
I don't think I have ever criticised your group Dale, or your philosophy. But you keep harping on that our cars do not confirm to any rules. So wrong my friend, so wrong.
It's a great pity that you weren't at the Auckland driver's meeting that Crunch referred to a few years ago. There were about 110 or 120 drivers who turned up. We challenged various aspects of the CoD system and I presume, the T & C "rules" to which you allude. Crunch threw out a challenge to the meeting to rewrite the T & C rules to make them more acceptable and we then spent a lot of time and effort conscientiously going through the T & C rules, line by line, word by word.
What we then presented to the Commission was a set of rules under which Alfa Trofeo and ERC specifically agreed, with some input from BMW.
Crunch and Tony and the Commission did indeed take some of our suggestions on board but within the commission, I'm sure that Crunch will agree, they are still somewhat divided on some issues, just as we may be on here.
Our philosophy then and now was that we have the Appendix & Schedule K rules for the purists, therefore the T & C rules by default should be a slightly looser set of rules, BUT, series organisers could tighten up those if they saw fit.
HMC has elected to run a tighter set of rules under the current structure, but several of the issues we raised way back then have not been changed, though they may have been addressed.
To accuse us of "not having any rules" is just the sort of statement that can only come from total ignorance and a biased opinion and is a cheap shot at a series that first and foremost, caters for what the drivers want. What is so wrong about that?
Our thinking back then, as now, was that T & C was initially drawn up and a CoD system implemented to enhance the provenance of the cars racing in NZ. However, many cars racing neither need nor gain from a written provenance.
It may seem to you that drivers are the only ones with opinions, but just remember that the Festival, more than any other local event has spectators who pay - and in some cases quite a lot. They also pay a fair bit in travel costs and their opinions are just as valid as those of the drivers. You may have a ball dicing with a couple of others, but if the rest of the track is empty, you don't seem to care - we do.
Having some professional experience in polling, I know only too well how the results and conclusions can be skewed so regardless of what you take from the Ferrari Festival feedback, I know that you learn far more from genuine criticism than praise and I have copped a fair bit of criticism over the years, some of it totally unjustified and some of it totally valid.
What spurred us to approach the Festival committee was feedback from those who had negative views of the Festival, but who desperately (and genuinely) wanted to see the Festival grow and be successful. The poll may give you the warm fuzzies but if you took the time to talk to those with less positive feedback, you'd have a different picture. I am sure that the committee took on board the results of our driver poll which consisted of a mix of competitors and event spectators.
Because you elect to only do 4 events a year and abhor any form of points, doesn't mean that others are happy with that format. We are still a chocolate fish series but what we need is some form of commitment and when people mention sponsorship, fronting up with just 4 cars at a meeting - and there are only 4 meetings, isn't really a good return for them. Considering our longevity, we have only ever had 4 sponsors (plus in the first couple of years, a donation from the MGCC Wellington).
So yes, numbers are important to many of us, even at the expense of running some cheaper but rarer cars of modest performance as a field of same or similar cars is not what we are about.
As for Angus running with us. You forget that both he and AMCO72 have run with us in the past without incident and having been overtaken by Angus going into the down hill hairpin at HD, I knew he was coming up behind me (that is what mirrors are for) and I left him room. No problem - nor with any of the other drivers in that grid. We welcome Angus with open arms and he knows that if he is quicker than the guys in front, they'll make room for him. We treat him no differently from any other driver and he will be handicapped only on his lap times as will everyone else.
This is just one grid out of a two weekend programme so if people don't want to watch, there are plenty of other races to entertain them, but I sincerely hope that ALL cars emerge at the end of the weekend with zero panel damage and big smiles and that the spectators leave with big smiles and Nigel Watts has to take spare memory cards and that the Festival is profitable...
Andrew Metford
03-13-2014, 02:12 PM
.
Andrew Metford
03-13-2014, 02:13 PM
A load of dribble containing the following…... just letting EVERYONE IN is easy….. followed by more self-serving dribble
Dale M
Dale, do you even read Ray's posts??? Because if you did, you would have read numerous times that he doesn't "let everyone in", and you would have also read numerous times that he has turned people away because their car doesn't conform to the required standards of the series. If I could be bothered I'd go back through the whole forum and post all the times he has stated both of these points, but I'm not going to waste my time when you are being so totally pig-headed about it all. You are losing my respect faster than your car goes.
RogerH
03-13-2014, 10:51 PM
Ray, just to play the devil's advocate with regards to your comments regarding ERC's rules.
From your site it seems a fundamental requirement of your rules is that "This is the official web page of NZ's most popular classic car racing series - ERC (European Racing Classics) for pre 1977 road going European saloons, sports and GT cars. ".
I think we all know that there are a number of ERC cars that don't comply with T&C (to varying degrees) and to the European pre 1977 requirement. There are an increasing number of post 1977 cars allowed in - with some of them considerably post 77.
We have had two pre 1977 cars in Ray's series (currently one registered) and this aspect of letting in significantly post 1977 cars is a concern - it is probably one of the reasons we bring our car out less for ERC events - why go to the bother and expensive of producing a complying car? Perhaps this might be one of the reasons why despite having 100+ cars registered only enough turn out to support one grid?
I understand it is a difficult position to be in - falling grid numbers equals diminishing economic viability - open up the rules to attract new entrants - upset existing drivers who don't turn up = reducing grid numbers.
RacerT
03-14-2014, 12:10 AM
Hi Rog. Lately the ERC series has been split into Arrows Wheels and AES, so the ERC 'brand' hasn't been used. I'm a big fan of Ray's series and commend the amount of work he does. It's not a perfect world and it seems that motorsport is more imperfect than most!
The rest of the world is based around cars racing as an 'era field', but here in NZ we race series, so it has been hard to get competitors to change their way of thinking. But on the other hand, series coordinators are great to have because you are just dealing with one entity instead of all the competitors, so there are pros and cons for both styles. The ideal would be for all of Ray's cars to be on COD's, but that is never going to happen. Remember Ray is from a country where some guy called Ellis picked up the soccer ball and ran with it and then invented a new game! Maybe it's in the blood!
Regarding Roger's comments, he is correct that pre 1977 is our core, but the rules were relaxed a few years ago on several grounds. One of which was the issue of "Thoroughbreds" within the classic arena, a term that has never been defined. We have always worked very closely with Alfa Trofeo as our overall ideals are identical and they run Alfa 33's and later cars for example, which we also accept.
As several of our drivers asked about various later model cars, we accepted them too because as they age, they are more accepted as classics in their own right. "Classics" didn't suddenly stop at a magic date in history.
Our Articles have always stated, right from day one, that the committee would consider on its individual merits, any car outside the pre 1977 Euro, which is why we have the exceptions listed in an earlier post.
I'd like to remind all posters, (supporters and critics) that the mission statement for MSNZ is to encourage participation and that the Classic mantra is again about the emphasis on participation rather than winning. Those two statements embody what we are about, but critics would rather some of these cars we accept, sidelined - or mixing it with the modern Japanese saloons. Neither of those options is acceptable to us.
The post 1977 cars are highlighted on our website and if and when there is a call or financial viability to run them as a separate grid, then we would do so. As it is, many of the current absentees are away for very good reasons and we have to accept that.
I accept Roger's comments in part but as driving standards and handicapping are a major focus, then the car almost assumes secondary importance. (Not quite!) As far as I am aware, Roger is the only one who has seriously objected to the inclusion of later cars. One other driver did object initially when we allowed in MGF's, partially to support the MGCC Series in exactly the same way that we have supported the Alfa series, but when it was pointed out that we had allowed his car to run that was not a pre 1977 Euro, the objections faded!
Some question why we allow in Tony's Corvette, but like the Segedin Mustang and others you really have to ask "Why not?" or more to the point "Which other race series would be a better fit?"
When the previous CoD only Arrow Wheel Series folded, it left people such as Ray Williams (Turbo), Bruce Manon & Andy Turpin (too fast for us) out in the cold, so we adapted our own rules to include them. That is something that was expedient, again, otherwise why lose them or sideline them?
In truth, we allow up to 5 transplant cars but have only ever run Gordon Burr's V8 Escort in several years and only one MGF has ever run with us so all those who forecast we'd be overrun with cars they didn't like were wrong.
Sure, I understand that the handling and performance capabilities of an E30 BMW are a step up from a BMW 2002, but it is no worse than comparing John Ures MK 7 Jag against an XJ6. Time marched on even pre 1977.
Over the years we had good support from TACCOC initially, but that faded somewhat with the demand for all cars to have CoDs and even then, there was an objection to one car that had a CoD! In recent times, the bridge has been partially rebuilt with the December TACCOC meeting inviting series which are not CoD compliant. The logical approach for TACCOC is to run pure (CoD) meetings and others. That they do both is mature and realistic. When/if the "pure" meetings are more successful in all respects than the "Series" meetings, then no doubt the "Series" meetings will be dumped?
We have also always had good support from the MGCC (Wellington and Auckland) and individually, Chris Watson has been 100% supportive from day one.
Tony, as above, has also been supportive and wishes we'd all get CoDs but as long as race promoters accept us, as we are, warts and all, it is no more than an option for our drivers. When/if compulsion ever sets in, then the CoD system has to be revised on several counts. The down side of any compulsion, is that if the drivers do not support it, then we'd merely seek other invites and avenues, but I think that might well be a net loss to the classic fraternity rather than a gain.
Bryan
03-14-2014, 01:30 AM
Could there be merit in a rolling age limit, instead of a fixed year? Like the 40 years for classic rego, perhaps a 25 or 30 year age limit, so that the pool of qualifying cars would increase, but the spirit of a "classic" would still remain?
nzeder
03-14-2014, 01:34 AM
Interesting opinions - and if anyone watched Top Gear and the James Blunt interview full in the blanks. "Opinions are like.....everyone has one"
I am one of those you talk about Dale - not actually racing currently (have done in the past) so while my opinion might not count in some eyes I think given I am building a car (and many might say the incorrect car more on that) I have read the rules over and over to ensure I understand them. So my car will be compliant to Appendix 6 - be it Schedule K or T&C (and it will be built to fit under both aka standard series production body work which is a T&C requirement)
I am both lucky and unlucky with my car choice. I am a 70's child and spend my early years in an Asian country while Dad was posted OS and as such Japanese cars were the norm and when I returned to NZ again most cars on the road were Japanese, Australian and British - the Euro and Amercian cars were not so common. When I started to show an interest in NZ Motorsport it was during the ShellSport days when Dad, my brother and I would go town to Pukekohe to watch these and other grids.
I unlucky feel in love with the S30Z range of cars aka Datsun 240z to most for the following reasons.
1. It was very un Japanese in styling
2. It was a very successful race car in most countries (except NZ where it appears no one raced one - maybe due to class rules or cost of the cars who knows)
3. They were an affordable classic car to purchase when I got my first one at 20 years of age (still have that same car today some 22 years later)
The unlucky part is there is no girds for such a car. The Datsun 240z have had a very hard road to row here in NZ, for some reason which I don't know (other than it is Japanese), the last 240z track car I owned used to race in the NZ Production series in the late 80's early 90's but when I purchased the car from it shed the PO showed me video footage of it running in these girds but over the 10+ years he had it parked up he moved houses a few time and has lost the log book. So I got a new one, removed the now illegal alloy roll cage and did classic trial in the car.
With the new car I am building it was outside of T&C rules when I got it (1/2 completed Targa car project that due to devoice had to be moved on and I picked it up) at first I thought I would run in the Japanese Series that ran under the Auckland Car Club events (aka Club car stuff) but having supported another 240z that raced in that grid and looking at the driving standard I was not going to put a car that is difficult to find in today's market with body parts that are NLA new from the manufacture. So I started to talk to the guys I knew that raced in the ERC grid (which at the time said Datsun 240z were out as they had a grid to run in aka the Japanese series) to see if I could be accepted in that group. With a green light I then started to remove all the non T&C/Schedule K spec items from the car and moved those on. So now I have grid to run in when I finish the car. So I thank Ray and team of the ERC group for giving us a place to race.
I would love to run at an event like the festival but currently I have few issues with the grids as they relate to a Datsun 240z.
The Datsun 240z like a MG midget, is classed as a Sports and GT and therefore is placed in a grid with non standard series production cars aka Mallock U2, Lotus 7 replica and other purpose built race cars aka if someone was to turn up with a Ford GT40 or any other lemanns special they are Sports cars under the FIA definitions so how can a standard series production GT be in the same grid??? This did not happen in period so what should it happen today? The GT cars ran in period with other Production based cars - maybe in a different group/point based group but on the same grids as the Alfa's, Escorts, BMW's, Mustangs, Corvettes, Porsche's etc. But today they are not allowed on the same grids as they are not a Saloon???
That is my only grip with the Festival is the grids are not how cars completed in the day, sure in NZ there was no Datsun 240z running in a grid in 1971 but else where in the world they did and they were in the same production based grids. Sure keep out cars that are outside of the rules if that is what the event requires. That is the issue I personally have (aka my opinion and like an ..... I have one) with the Festival and the U3L Saloons - why block so many cars, MG's, Datsun 240z, Healey, TR4 that are under 3.0 ran in period with the same cars but that are not Saloons.
This is why I support the ERC grid at next years festival - cars (ideally pre 78 as that is the type of cars I like but understand time does not stand still for no man) as the grid will based on ERC grids and not limited to just Saloons we will see cars that raced on the same grids as they did in period, Escorts, Capri's, MG's, Jag's, Datsun 240z, Porsche's, Fiat's, Triumph's, Torana's ie Production based grids.
So why could a Datsun 240z race in the 80-90's in the NZ Production Series like the car I used to own but today it can't be on the same grid? How is that "as it was, as it should be"
So that is my unlucky bit liking the Datsun S30z series of cars as they might be too different to be on the track as the same time as other production based cars - and the same could be said if I like a Triumph TR4, 5, 6, 7 or TR8 all GT cars aka no back seat = epic fail in the eyes of some as production based race cars.
The lucky bit is the ERC group do want to see these cars running in grids like they did in period. And I only hope I will still have place to run when the car is finished and I don't have to go and play club car like I did in the 90's with my first Datsun 240z race car (it was not a lot of fun in grids with only V8 muscle cars (with 4x my 100HP at the wheels) as I had 2 cylinders too many for one grid and 2 cylinder short for the grid I was placed in while you are learning race craft - I guess I learnt to get out of the way and make space for the faster cars)
Bryan
03-14-2014, 01:56 AM
Sports cars have two seats, saloons have four - is that the problem for the 240Z? Opposite issue when tiny back seats allowed 911 and RX7 to run as saloons in NZ and Aus? Only Z-car I can recall racing in the '80s was (iirc) Rod Collingwood's 300ZX in the first Group A race at Wigram.
nzeder
03-14-2014, 04:36 AM
Sports cars have two seats, saloons have four - is that the problem for the 240Z?Yes that is a problem - the 240z is not a sport car under the FIA it is a Production Based GT car not a sports car. A sports car under the FIA is a limited number special series or purpose built race car - that is the FIA Appendix J definitions for the era the car represents. Cars like the 240z, TR's of Triumph, Corvette etc are out in the cold in NZ motorsport as they are not identified as mass produced GT cars but as these "Sport Cars" which they clearly are not specials/low built or race cars only aka a Le Manns Ford GT40 is a Sports Car as is the Nissan/Prince R380, or Porsche 917 - they are "Sports Cars" under the FIA Appendix J of the 70's and a Datsun 240z, Triumph TR7, MG, Corvettes are GT cars.
That is a big difference in my eyes.
RacerT
03-14-2014, 05:00 AM
Yes that is a problem - the 240z is not a sport car under the FIA it is a Production Based GT car not a sports car. A sports car under the FIA is a limited number special series or purpose built race car - that is the FIA Appendix J definitions for the era the car represents. Cars like the 240z, TR's of Triumph, Corvette etc are out in the cold in NZ motorsport as they are not identified as mass produced GT cars but as these "Sport Cars" which they clearly are not specials/low built or race cars only aka a Le Manns Ford GT40 is a Sports Car as is the Nissan/Prince R380, or Porsche 917 - they are "Sports Cars" under the FIA Appendix J of the 70's and a Datsun 240z, Triumph TR7, MG, Corvettes are GT cars.
That is a big difference in my eyes.
Hi NZEDER
There are several FIA Sports Car categories that range from Production Sports Cars, GTS through to Sports Racing Cars. New Zealand has never had a production sports car class, so you are correct in there. The Festival is inclusive of all sports cars in one field, but does so with a regard to the differing performance levels and on safety. Sports cars are inherently safer than single seaters in a racing situation, because they have covered wheels and therefore not the propensity to touch wheels and launch into the stratosphere!
Once again, it is a numbers game. If we had enough production sports cars then a field could be run, but then that would disappoint other competitors in non production cars that would be turned away. Your Datsun 240Z is welcome in the Festival pre 78 race class as it is.
nzeder
03-14-2014, 05:21 AM
Hi NZEDER
New Zealand has never had a production sports car class, so you are correct in there.Bingo and that is why the Datsun 240z were never raced here in NZ in period - no class/grid for them. So if that is the case did the Corvette's, Triumphs TR's, MG Midgets race in NZ in period as they too are classified under the same FIA groups of Appendix J or the day.
My car is actually a Datsun 260z - however when most think of the 260z they automatically jump to the longer wheel base 2+2 version when mine is the shorter 2 seater version (even though the log book has it down as Saloon) which was produced in smaller numbers than the 240z with only 22,000 ish of the 260z 2 seater in RHD form created over its 4 years of production. Unlike the 240z which was made over 100,000 RHD then 200,000 in LHD (then there were JDM models too) so my car is in fact rarer than a 240z ;) but it is easier to say it is a 240z as most ID that with the 2 seater version as the 240z was only ever made as a 2 seater.
RogerH
03-14-2014, 05:58 AM
… As far as I am aware, Roger is the only one who has seriously objected to the inclusion of later cars. ….
Actually Ray, I don't think I have ever formally complained about this but I do recollect the "you are the only one complaining" story being said to others in the past when I was aware that a few held the same view. Don't mislead yourself that I'm the only one who is a little miffed about opening up a supposedly pre 1977 class to 1990s cars - I've spoken to a few who have similar views. In typical Kiwi fashion they don't complain but just don't turn up again.
I'm not aware of any others Roger (bar the one mentioned earlier) but you and I have discussed it!
The rolling age limit is generally accepted as logical but as has been said many, many times before, we already have 1800cc MGBs and V8s, 1300cc Ford Escorts, 2 litres and V8s; 2 litre Capris and 2.6. 3 litre and V8s. So what about the real differences between a 1959, 69, 79, 89 cars? Are they really any more different than the capacities?
I really do not see a totally level playing field whether pre 1977 or not, so unless we see sufficient of either Sports/GTs, post 1977, speed groups and/or any combinations anyone cares to dream up, we are consolidating with a single grid for next season, so now we will upset those who see the speed differential as a problem and we may lose one or two more.
Unlike Dale and one or two others, we cannot and will not justify tiny multiple grids, split by speed, capacity, age, body style etc. as it just isn't viable to create a sand-pit for every interest group.
"You can please some of the people some of the time" and I long ago stopped trying to please "all of the people all of the time" as it is an impossibility. I'll happily accept the flack for changes made since I inherited the series, right back to the very first season when we scrapped the "limited to 4 cylinder cars" but all those changes are generally thought out to take into account the changing conditions, finances, car ages, calendar and so on.
What I do know is that if for example, if we made CoD's compulsory, it would destroy the series overnight!
I personally wasn't too pleased years ago having to change from a grid of saloons and a grid of sports/GTs, to two speed groups and I know that those with smaller cars aren't too happy racing alongside large saloons, but history shows that it was the right decision. I don't make decisions based on self interest, I make decisions based on what I believe is best for the series and if I am wrong, so be it.
Reversing any decision made because it doesn't work is fine as no-one is right all the time, but I do have the luxury of being a one man committee so I believe that what we have works for the vast majority. If sufficient people voice their concerns regarding any aspect of the series, then it is looked at, be that the rules, individual cars or individual drivers. Talking over a beer with mates and grizzling doesn't cut it. People have to be up front if they are dissatisfied with any aspect of the sport but there is no guarantee that anything will be changed, as I'd like to think that I have a reasonable handle of what works - for us. I don't take it personally as this is a series for the drivers not an over inflated ego trip.
Maybe I'll retire at the end of season 20 or maybe I'll carry on, but I'm not indispensable (nor are any of us) and I am sure there are others who'd happily stamp their style on it and that someone may totally change things. It won't be any easier or harder than it is now.
Oldfart
03-14-2014, 07:16 AM
Mike/NZeder, most of the cars you mention did run in the time, along with other sports cars such as the U2s, Lotus 7 like and more specialised cars. No there was no class for them per se, but they did take part. I did a couple of events with the Sprite and before that the MGA. They were low level events, but we did them. It was in the sprit of "I would rather be out there" than hoping for good results, and fun was had.
I don't think that the lack of a "production car class" was imposed by anyone, just not enough people wanted it to happen. Remember these were valuable cars for most of us that we needed to drive to work on Monday.
It does not seem that long ago that there were very few classes, in some cases it was saloons, sports cars and single seaters, that was it. It is only in more recent times that the class thing has proliferated.
rogered
03-14-2014, 07:43 AM
After reading this lot, most , it seems, have missed the point.
From what i see, most everybody is running " in the spirit of what's required" and all seem to be having fun, And they always have full grids with a full assortment of cars all doing their own thing. Seams to me ERC know "the answer to the secret" that most of the other 51 race classes and promoters are constantly searching for..
For those who wish firm, strictly enforced rules, there are plenty of classes catering for that. (There are still plenty of spaces to fill in NZ supertourer)
At last, someone outside the series understands!
Thanks Rogerd - though to be fair, we haven't had too many two full grids recently, but we have had two half grids on a regular basis. We try to have an "Include" structure not an "Exclude" and therein lies the basic difference.
nzeder
03-14-2014, 09:06 AM
And don't forget the big part of the ERC group is the handicap setup. It is the leveler that
1. Makes for great racing to watch.
2. Put big smiles on the competitors dials.
3. Allows for cars and drivers of different levels of performance to compete in the same race.
And that system and the way Ray and his merry little helpers set these handicaps make the series a winner.
Years ago when the Datsun Z club use to hold a race meeting not the driving training/track days it does these days. We did time based grids with handicaps and it was FUN. It was hard work in those days with stop watches for timing in the old bus but the smile on everyones face was worth the stress in the timing bus.
The point handicaps and time based grids work/have worked.
crunch
03-15-2014, 12:17 AM
Mike/NZeder, most of the cars you mention did run in the time, along with other sports cars such as the U2s, Lotus 7 like and more specialised cars. No there was no class for them per se, but they did take part. I did a couple of events with the Sprite and before that the MGA. They were low level events, but we did them. It was in the sprit of "I would rather be out there" than hoping for good results, and fun was had.
I don't think that the lack of a "production car class" was imposed by anyone, just not enough people wanted it to happen. Remember these were valuable cars for most of us that we needed to drive to work on Monday.
It does not seem that long ago that there were very few classes, in some cases it was saloons, sports cars and single seaters, that was it. It is only in more recent times that the class thing has proliferated.
Very good points
nzeder
03-15-2014, 02:45 AM
I remember doing that in my first 240z racecar. Drive to the track, take 4 rims that were well placed around the cage and passengers seat, swap these for the road rubber change the koni shock settings then race for the day and drive home once the day was over.
I have a feeling I will be doing the same with the current project too as I don't have a trailer and the cost of one is almost a season of race entry fees ;)
I do recall all those cars I mentioned running in the late 80's at the Whenuapai Taccoc days. Those were some great racing as I recall with a good mix of cars.
crunch
03-15-2014, 03:01 AM
I remember doing that in my first 240z racecar. Drive to the track, take 4 rims that were well placed around the cage and passengers seat, swap these for the road rubber change the koni shock settings then race for the day and drive home once the day was over.
I have a feeling I will be doing the same with the current project too as I don't have a trailer and the cost of one is almost a season of race entry fees ;)
I do recall all those cars I mentioned running in the late 80's at the Whenuapai Taccoc days. Those were some great racing as I recall with a good mix of cars.
That is too much work for a historic race day Mike! I intend just driving to circuit, take lunch out, race and drive home again. Forget the slicks, just a good set of road tyres
The trailer is the best investment I have made. Since I bought it I have saved way more than the initial cost. The annual cost of keeping the Marcos on the road, Wof, registration, authority card and insurance, pushed the cost per km to ridiculous levels, so trailering was a better option, even though still on the one and only set of road wheels/tyres I possess.
Equally, shunting the Magnette around from workshop to workshop from the bare shell to its current state over the last 9 years would have cost thousands in hired trailers, not to mention the inconvenience and often, the lack of availability.
Also very useful for fetching timber, gib board etc!
Limezed
03-15-2014, 05:36 AM
Also Murphy Law says your car will only break the day you don't have a trailer.
Steve Holmes
03-15-2014, 05:52 AM
Yes that is a problem - the 240z is not a sport car under the FIA it is a Production Based GT car not a sports car. A sports car under the FIA is a limited number special series or purpose built race car - that is the FIA Appendix J definitions for the era the car represents. Cars like the 240z, TR's of Triumph, Corvette etc are out in the cold in NZ motorsport as they are not identified as mass produced GT cars but as these "Sport Cars" which they clearly are not specials/low built or race cars only aka a Le Manns Ford GT40 is a Sports Car as is the Nissan/Prince R380, or Porsche 917 - they are "Sports Cars" under the FIA Appendix J of the 70's and a Datsun 240z, Triumph TR7, MG, Corvettes are GT cars.
That is a big difference in my eyes.
I love the 240z, and the 2-seat 260Z. Simply beautiful cars. I can understand your enthusiasm for them, and why you're building one yourself. Your comments in an earlier post about these cars not being accepted in some classes because they're Japanese might have been the case twenty years ago, but I don't think its the case today. I remember moving back to NZ in the mid-1990s after living in the UK, where I'd attended several high-profile historic racing events, in which Japanese cars were just as welcome as anything else. I was surprised to get back to NZ and find there was still some snobishness towards Japanese cars in NZ historic racing, yet late model Porsches, replica Shelby Cobras etc were all OK. I found this strange, but I now think they're finally being appreciated for what they are. Typical New Zealand, always a little bit behind the times.
Re racing the Z with touring car/saloon car grids, its unfortunate you have a passion for a car that doesn't easily fit in many categories. In period, the 240Z was considered a production sports car, and therefore, raced with other production sports cars. Brock Racing Enterprises ran Datsun 1600s in the SCCA Trans-Am sedan championship, and Datsun 240Zs in the SCCA C/Production sports car championship. Throughout the world the Z cars rarely raced anywhere as a touring car, because either they only had 2 seats, or their cabin size was too small to be classified a touring car. About the only sports car to make the cross-over was the Porsche 911, but this was only very briefly. The Z didn't race in NZ, Australia, the US, or the UK as a touring car. So in historic racing today, with touring car racing enjoying bigger grids than production sports car racing in most countries, racing a Z is always going to limit your options somewhat.
Given there is growing interest in people building pre-1978 production sports cars to T&C or Schedule K rules, I’m surprised nobody has made the effort to try and round everyone up and put a grid together at the Festival. You’d have the Datsuns, Corvettes, Morgan Plus 4 and 8, Triumph TR3, Tr4, TR6, TR7, TR8, Porsche 911, Austin Healey, Lotus Elan, the numerous MG’s, etc etc. Check out the 50 car grid at the recent Phillip Island Classic: http://racing.natsoft.com.au/635634733/object_25207776.92D/View?5 And this group has an earlier cut-off date than 1978, I think its around 1970.
Maybe food for thought further down the track?
24238
nzeder
03-15-2014, 09:17 AM
Thanks for that info Steve and you made me look at the books and online for entry lists (and the rules/grids of the day) and I recall seeing period videos of BMW 2002, Alfa 105 and Datsun 240z + Corvettes and Mustangs on the same grid - but they did run in different groups - just sometimes in these same grids.
A bit more digging found most of the groups were combined for endurance races which explains why I have seen photos and videos of the both Sedans and Sport Car (or GT depending on who and how they define a Sport Car vs GT).
All this is by the by and why I like the ERC group as they put a grid together as happened in period - Sedan's and Sports & GT cars in the same grids aka all production based cars if you wish. If they did not cars like the Datsun 240z, TR's, Marcos, Morgans etc would not have a grid to run in. Unless like you say someone was to make a grid for them - but currently why would one when ERC allows these cars to run and as pointed out by Ray already he has to combine the 2 groups already into one grid - so why take cars away from this group?
The other point that some are overlooking is that even in NZ, 30 years ago, the annual Le Mans Relay races had teams of Daimlers, Morgans, Lotus, Triumphs, Austin Healeys, XK Jaguars, Bucklers, MG Midgets, Triumph Spitfires etc, but you rarely see them out on the track in any great numbers now, as they are deemed too valuable to race, or, open cars need a load of ugly scaffolding. Only MGB's are seen in any great numbers today mainly because they were massive sellers and all parts are still available, including bodyshells.
We know that many of our drivers still own very interesting cars but now keep them as Sunday drivers or show cars and who can blame them? Racing is very hard on the cars and accidents will happen as I know only too well, as not that long after I had totally restored my car, an over enthusiastic driver who should have known better, caused a minor incident that spun another car and in trying to get past it on the grass, his bumper ripped a great chunk out of my rear wing. Far easier to run a more recent BMW where panels are readily available.
We will never see TR2/3/4/5/6/7's, Lotus Elan +2s, Austin Healeys, Morgan +4s etc., out on the track again in any great numbers, any more than we'll ever see a full grid of Aston Martins or E Type Jaguars racing in NZ.
We do still get a great variety but the mix isn't what it would have been 25 years ago and it will change over the coming years - not necessarily for the better either, so I applaud anyone willing to risk an interesting car, as it is so much tougher (and more expensive) than the common options.
Parnelli
03-15-2014, 10:13 PM
And don't forget the big part of the ERC group is the handicap setup. It is the leveler that
1. Makes for great racing to watch.
2. Put big smiles on the competitors dials.
3. Allows for cars and drivers of different levels of performance to compete in the same race.
And that system and the way Ray and his merry little helpers set these handicaps make the series a winner.
Years ago when the Datsun Z club use to hold a race meeting not the driving training/track days it does these days. We did time based grids with handicaps and it was FUN. It was hard work in those days with stop watches for timing in the old bus but the smile on everyones face was worth the stress in the timing bus.
The point handicaps and time based grids work/have worked.
I don’t quite understand what this Handicap Setup is ? In a class where the “Cars are the Stars “ , if you had handicap races then surely some of the ‘ fast star cars ‘ may not cross the line at the front of the field ! Surely you are not suggesting risking fast cars by starting slower cars in front of them ……………
Good point Parnelli - even though it may be tongue in cheek!
There are different handicapping philosophies. Some believe that the fastest car should always win and some do operate that system in NZ - often unknowingly.
The system we operate under is that theoretically, every car crosses the finish line at exactly the same time - which is of course impossible! However, as our philosophy is also that the guy with the fastest car may or not win either the race or the series, then it is quite possible that the fastest car may only be two seconds behind the winner, yet may only get 8th place.
One yellow flag at just one corner for 30 seconds can also totally change the race outcome - but who really cares?
If drivers expect to win because they have the fattest chequebook, then the ERC Series is not for them. If a driver starts and finishes every race in the series, then they are pretty well guaranteed to be in the top five at the end of the season. The rules (that Dale doesn't believe exist) clearly state that supporting the series will be of considerable benefit as points are still awarded for races two and three, even if the car failed during practice or race one.
It isn't for everyone as some have a mindset that winning is all, but if we encouraged that, then no one in their right mind would be pedalling an 1800cc MGB, a 1600cc Ford Escort or a VW Golf.
crunch
03-16-2014, 12:22 AM
Good point Parnelli - even though it may be tongue in cheek!
There are different handicapping philosophies. Some believe that the fastest car should always win and some do operate that system in NZ - often unknowingly.
The system we operate under is that theoretically, every car crosses the finish line at exactly the same time - which is of course impossible! However, as our philosophy is also that the guy with the fastest car may or not win either the race or the series, then it is quite possible that the fastest car may only be two seconds behind the winner, yet may only get 8th place.
One yellow flag at just one corner for 30 seconds can also totally change the race outcome - but who really cares?
If drivers expect to win because they have the fattest chequebook, then the ERC Series is not for them. If a driver starts and finishes every race in the series, then they are pretty well guaranteed to be in the top five at the end of the season. The rules (that Dale doesn't believe exist) clearly state that supporting the series will be of considerable benefit as points are still awarded for races two and three, even if the car failed during practice or race one.
It isn't for everyone as some have a mindset that winning is all, but if we encouraged that, then no one in their right mind would be pedalling an 1800cc MGB, a 1600cc Ford Escort or a VW Golf.
Of course, it goes without saying that according to the Historic & Classic philosophy that all MSNZ clubs subscribe to; that there should be no winners or competition...so it's all academic really....isn't it??
Parnelli
03-16-2014, 12:38 AM
Good point Parnelli - even though it may be tongue in cheek!
There are different handicapping philosophies. Some believe that the fastest car should always win and some do operate that system in NZ - often unknowingly.
The system we operate under is that theoretically, every car crosses the finish line at exactly the same time - which is of course impossible! However, as our philosophy is also that the guy with the fastest car may or not win either the race or the series, then it is quite possible that the fastest car may only be two seconds behind the winner, yet may only get 8th place.
One yellow flag at just one corner for 30 seconds can also totally change the race outcome - but who really cares?
If drivers expect to win because they have the fattest chequebook, then the ERC Series is not for them. If a driver starts and finishes every race in the series, then they are pretty well guaranteed to be in the top five at the end of the season. The rules (that Dale doesn't believe exist) clearly state that supporting the series will be of considerable benefit as points are still awarded for races two and three, even if the car failed during practice or race one.
It isn't for everyone as some have a mindset that winning is all, but if we encouraged that, then no one in their right mind would be pedalling an 1800cc MGB, a 1600cc Ford Escort or a VW Golf.
Yeah Ray, The tongue stuck to the cheek makes it hard to eat the humble pie. My point was the added fun for both competitors and spectators that is achievable under a handicap race system far outweighs a procession of fastest cars first. Some of the most remembered races in history have been when backmarkers work there way thru the pack and idealistically everyone finishes on the same lap , fairly close together.
Limezed
03-16-2014, 01:09 AM
Another thing the handicap promotes is drivermanship. Ie a fast car with not so skilled racer (as opposed to just being able to set fast lap times in practise) may not do as well as a slower driver that can get through traffic.
Put me down as a fan of ERC.
Steve Holmes
03-16-2014, 09:14 PM
The other point that some are overlooking is that even in NZ, 30 years ago, the annual Le Mans Relay races had teams of Daimlers, Morgans, Lotus, Triumphs, Austin Healeys, XK Jaguars, Bucklers, MG Midgets, Triumph Spitfires etc, but you rarely see them out on the track in any great numbers now, as they are deemed too valuable to race, or, open cars need a load of ugly scaffolding. Only MGB's are seen in any great numbers today mainly because they were massive sellers and all parts are still available, including bodyshells.
We know that many of our drivers still own very interesting cars but now keep them as Sunday drivers or show cars and who can blame them? Racing is very hard on the cars and accidents will happen as I know only too well, as not that long after I had totally restored my car, an over enthusiastic driver who should have known better, caused a minor incident that spun another car and in trying to get past it on the grass, his bumper ripped a great chunk out of my rear wing. Far easier to run a more recent BMW where panels are readily available.
We will never see TR2/3/4/5/6/7's, Lotus Elan +2s, Austin Healeys, Morgan +4s etc., out on the track again in any great numbers, any more than we'll ever see a full grid of Aston Martins or E Type Jaguars racing in NZ.
We do still get a great variety but the mix isn't what it would have been 25 years ago and it will change over the coming years - not necessarily for the better either, so I applaud anyone willing to risk an interesting car, as it is so much tougher (and more expensive) than the common options.
Yes I do agree with that Ray, although I think the rising value and rarity of parts on these cars is only part of the problem. I think it also relates to the fact, as things currently stand in NZ historic racing, its a fairly pointless exercise building one of the cars listed above, because its only going to be thrown in with a group of more modern cars, fitted with even more modern technology.The fact they can get 50 cars on the grid at the Phillip Island Classic suggests there are people willing to build and race these cars, but only if they're racing against similar cars from a similar era.
Steve, you are falling into the same trap as other critics. Handicapping levels the playing field and we already have cars from the 1950's competing against cars from the 1990s.
Aus has a catchment of 16 million people and we have 4. The UK has a catchment of 60 million plus close and easy proximity to Europe via the channel tunnel.
Even if everyone in the north island who REALLY wanted to race, did so with their older sports cars, we still wouldn't have a full grid.
If there really was a demand for period purism, why doesn't TACCOC have an over subscribed grid of them, as they have run meetings for the purists? This argument is constantly advanced by critics of our series yet there are already alternatives for the purists, but we still don't see them competing. We only do six meetings a season, leaving plenty of space for others to run other series if they so desire
Classic Trials also caters for those with classic sports cars but we have only really seen a few - Arthur's TR3 for example and Mike Sexton's Austin Healeys. Traditionally, that has been the stepping stone for many drivers and if they were over subscribed, or over represented, a grid for them would very soon have been established.
As Rhys Nolan has already found out, the same applies to older saloons. They have never been excluded from race meetings and when given a grid of their own, there is little support. The opportunity to race pure cars has never ever been denied but if there was a real demand, then where are they?
I grew up when a sports car grid contained interesting cars and there were many makes and specials (Tojeiro, HRG, Keift, Lea Francis, Lister, Turner, anyone?). Over the years, fewer and fewer makes of sports cars were available and not many people these days own or drive sports cars.
Those that have survived are rarely raced not because they are facing modern technology but racing is hard on the car. A sector of our sport believes that you shouldn't lock away the scarce and valuable wings or trim and fit fibreglass replicas or fit a bullet proof gearbox, and that doesn't help get them on track either. Others believe that even with a full cage, you have to wreck a dash board or a rear seat and refit them or refit a headlining. Lets not discuss roll protection!
These issues are excluding cars and maybe some should be looking at the real reasons why cars are not out on the track instead of pointing fingers at areas where cars are running.
RacerT
03-16-2014, 10:22 PM
Yes I do agree with that Ray, although I think the rising value and rarity of parts on these cars is only part of the problem. I think it also relates to the fact, as things currently stand in NZ historic racing, its a fairly pointless exercise building one of the cars listed above, because its only going to be thrown in with a group of more modern cars, fitted with even more modern technology.The fact they can get 50 cars on the grid at the Phillip Island Classic suggests there are people willing to build and race these cars, but only if they're racing against similar cars from a similar era.
Very perceptive of you Holmes!
John McKechnie
03-16-2014, 10:48 PM
I have been told by some competitors that the Beach Hop is on March 29 -30 and for that weekend, that is where they will be.
Last year it was the Leadfoot.
It appears that this could be just one reason why cars are not out on the track running
Kiwiboss
03-16-2014, 11:05 PM
Hi Rog. Lately the ERC series has been split into Arrows Wheels and AES, so the ERC 'brand' hasn't been used. I'm a big fan of Ray's series and commend the amount of work he does. It's not a perfect world and it seems that motorsport is more imperfect than most!
The rest of the world is based around cars racing as an 'era field', but here in NZ we race series, so it has been hard to get competitors to change their way of thinking. But on the other hand, series coordinators are great to have because you are just dealing with one entity instead of all the competitors, so there are pros and cons for both styles. The ideal would be for all of Ray's cars to be on COD's, but that is never going to happen. Remember Ray is from a country where some guy called Ellis picked up the soccer ball and ran with it and then invented a new game! Maybe it's in the blood!
Still a great debate on here but RacerT hit the nail on the head, it seems that NZ old car racing is mainly “Race Series” based whereas the rest of the world is “Vehicle Era” based. What we are doing with HMC is vehicle based, where anyone is welcome as long as your vehicle is legal. Unfortunately there is still some resistance but many are starting to “get it”. The “Series based” old car racing is a bit uneven, hard to control, and really relies solely on the series co-ordinators which means the rules or interpretation of those rules that can change easily when someone else is in charge or changes occur in the committee.
While this is not really a problem for series events, it can cause something like the Festival (that is making people focus on Historic racing) to either head one way or the other. Either down the track of series rules or proper historic enforced rules.
Remember old car Historic and Classic racing is meant to be “about the vehicle” and the moment you modernise the vehicle its a “Club Car” and is now unfair on the other ‘proper’ classic or historic cars who do not have the benefit of the new technology.
In HMC the four fastest cars have pretty much hit the brick wall of performance and consequently everyone can catch up, but no one could pull away unless modern technology is applied. As this is strictly banned we are going to ensure close exciting racing without the need for handicapping every race.
Ray writes excellent postings and I for one barely have enough time just for this one. However anyone who posts a disagreement against Ray’s line of thinking get his written “essay ramblings” that slowly but surely moves it away from the original query. There are clear indications that there are some people that disagree with allowing cars that are not within the rules, but their concerns are pushed aside or ignored with the argument that numbers are more important.
I stated in posting #84 that “i see ERC as a mish mash group where rules seem to be more guides lines than offering up historic values in the vehicles” Ray thinks this is me saying that ERC has NO RULES, but this is not the case. I know he has rules but they’re only interpreted by a one man committee as in his posting post #99 where he states I do have the luxury of being a one man committee. Didn’t some guy in 30’s Europe try running a country like this LOL? It is important for all participants to know that if they comply with a rule they can expect all others in the field to have also done so. Otherwise what is the point of rules at all if they are not applied to all.
He provides an arm length long list of all these entries and vehicles available for his “race series” but to me that’s easy when breaking your own rules, I too could do the same in HMC if I wanted to include every non-conforming muscle CAR in NZ.
You see nzder is making a huge effort to build a period correct “Era Based” 240Z to T&C but how are you going to like it when you line up on the ERC grid alongside another 240Z that’s a hot-rod club car built to no real regulations but he got “invited” by Rays one man committee as he’s on the list and a good guy but that’s OK because he’ll handicap the shit outta him? Hell I’d be pissed, maybe others won’t but I have my doubts. Handicapping everyone so they meant to cross the line evenly is pretty cool and I’ve had some of my best racing in handicaps but this is not historic racing, but it’s the only way ERC can even out its unlevelled playing field rather than enforce regulations? Some of the biggest accidents in NZ motorsport have been around this format, but if one really wants to see this type of racing go to a club event as there’s plenty happening most weekends on tracks around NZ.
Filling up the grids with more modern post 12/77 vehicles only has the effect to drive away the older car owners even further but once again Ray uses the excuse that “well” they’ve become too expensive, owners don’t want them damaged, they’ve restored them all. Sure they don’t want them damaged, imagine some cheap non-legal modern invited vehicle driving though the side of your beautifully restored historically correct older 240Z. The point being made by Ray, that opening up the class allows some of the old race cars to be raced ‘rather than sidelined’ ignores the other side of the argument that the true compliant race cars no longer want to race as they run the risk of accidents or just being non-competitive despite being correct. Over time it only gets worst with less and less older vehicles showing up and that’s the case these days.
LOOK, at the end of the day I don’t expect you all to agree with me and I know this, and I see nothing wrong with ERC as it is a fantastic well organised, well run and well-oiled machine. But it is ONLY CLUB RACING nothing more and certainly not anything about classic or historic values (yes I know he does have some historic T&C and K saloons in it). You see I originally started this debate because here is a club racing series that has now been invited to NZ’S best historic event and I don’t see this as a good move for the future and still don’t. This is NOT about how ERC is run or what cars they should let in, but more about whether a series of this nature should be at a premier event.
I find it interesting how the Festival of Motor Racing has become a very popular premier event and now everyone wants a piece of the action! You could say I am actually criticising the event organisers and not Ray or ERC. I have already apologised to them both, it simply amazes me (shaking my head) that it is purely self-interest, rather than looking at the bigger picture of pre 12/77 Historic and Classic saloon racing in this country.
I for one don’t say that HMC is by any means perfect either, but what myself, Tony and Steve saw was many big bore saloons sitting around with nowhere to race because of exactly the problem we are discussing. The allowing of cars that are not compliant into the class, which pushes out the ‘more correct’ cars as they are no longer competitive due to the ‘hotrod’ cars being grandfathered or being let in due to committee or personality or series co-ordinators reasons. We are making sure we change that, so any Era based car that is compliant is allowed to race and those that are not compliant are not. This is for the good for the class, the good of the racers and good for the cars. They can remain competitive without having new technology thrown at them and the chase for HP or performance by throwing large chunks of money at them each year can be avoided. Sure there is going to be a bit of pain in the growing years while numbers are built up but in the long run the result would be a fantastic class of accurate vehicles that is not a ‘cheque book racing’ series.
Dale M
Kiwiboss
03-16-2014, 11:12 PM
I have been told by some competitors that the Beach Hop is on March 29 -30 and for that weekend, that is where they will be.
Last year it was the Leadfoot.
It appears that this could be just one reason why cars are not out on the track running
Yes John, we are loosing competitors because of other events like this especially when on the same weekend!! One HMC member mentioned to me that because he race at the Festival he really needs to take the family to the hop as promised. Between Jan and April it seems everything is on here in NZ.
Dale M
RacerT
03-17-2014, 12:34 AM
Yes John, we are loosing competitors because of other events like this especially when on the same weekend!! One HMC member mentioned to me that because he race at the Festival he really needs to take the family to the hop as promised. Between Jan and April it seems everything is on here in NZ.
Dale M
Hi Dale
HRC sets its race calendar 9 - 12 months out and endeavours to avoid other peoples events, but it seems that they often have little regard or knowledge of our events and often move from their traditional date onto ours! Lead Foot did it two years in a row, so we are trying to work with them now. Beach Hop hops all over the place, so very unpredictable!
Remind us again Dale about the total amount of panel damage at the Festival of the last few years?
Club cars? Oh dearie me.
Maybe you are one who would prefer we took the whole shooting match to Auckland car Club and left you with your tiny grids to gloat over the empty tarseal, whilst paying triple the entry fees you are paying now? Just remember when a 40 car ERC grid is out there, that your ten car grid (at best) is being subsidised by them.
You can ignore the realities as much as you like Dale but I suggest that you trawl back over the last 18 seasons and analyse exactly what percentage of the meeting income has come from our two ERC groups at the meetings we have supported.
You persist in pointing the finger at the series which by your own admission is successful and has been successful for a number of years. Your own series has yet to reach even a quarter grid of its own and much as you keep harping on about it, as yet, it is not a success as measured by any criteria other than the cars conform to a specific set of rules. Success has to be multi dimensional.
Our series goes well beyond just the racing as the camaraderie is the equal of any other series anywhere, usually proven by the turn out at the annual dinner - FREE to all paid up drivers.
Criticising a series because it is not run by a committee is sinking to a level that quite frankly, appals me. Whilst your choice of European dictator may suit your purposes, I think that maybe you need to look at Singapore's history as a counter. Anyway, who is the one with the moustache? LOL
To get it back on track, maybe (Alec Issigonis'?) the correct counter is - "A camel is thoroughbred horse designed by a committee."
or "The ideal is a committee of two - with one permanently out of town."
Maybe because it is St Patrick's Day today, there is a green eyed Monster lurking? Different philosophies but none are perfect - and some are less perfect than others.
Challenge or criticise all you like but it is the drivers who really decide, not me, not you, not MSNZ, not the H & C Commission.
Tony Herbert summed things up very nicely years ago when many cars were being denied a CoD for all sorts of spurious reasons, when dealing with the late JC (no pun intended.
"The trouble with JC is that he would only be really happy if every other driver was running a Wolseley 1500 fitted with a 1950cc MGB engine, Minilite wheels and an alloy crossflow head."
Just to remind anyone as to why we approached the Festival Committee, these are the programme grid numbers for each class - BEFORE attrition set in. I also checked on the finishers for each final race of each group but I see no need to publish those here but they tell the real story as to why the spectator view and opinion is so crucial at an event fairly and squarely targeted at getting spectators along.
F5000 & F1 – 23 cars
Historic Muscle Cars & Pre 78 Historic Saloons – 10 + 13 = 23 cars.
Heritage Touring Cars - 13
Pre 78 & Invited Sports, Sports Racing & GT cars. – 20 cars.
Pre 85 Historic Allcomers & Sports Sedans – 24 cars
BMW Open class – 16 cars
Classic Trials – 36 cars
Historic Formula Fords – 25 cars
BMW E30s – 19 cars
FJ/F3 & Invited Historics – 14 cars
Historic Formula Libre – 17
If this is our showcase meeting, then why wouldn't you want at least one full grid? Far from diluting the Festival, even if you discount any ERC cars anyone believes is marginal, we'd still be putting more genuine cars on the grid than almost any other group, so why is that so wrong?
The grid limit at HD for saloons is I believe 44 or 46 cars, so any saloon grid as above with empty spaces, tells its own story.
John McKechnie
03-17-2014, 01:19 AM
Tony- By the way, Pukekohe didnt run their meeting last weekend because of the rain , and it is being run the March 29-30 .
Steve Holmes
03-17-2014, 01:24 AM
Steve, you are falling into the same trap as other critics. Handicapping levels the playing field and we already have cars from the 1950's competing against cars from the 1990s.
Aus has a catchment of 16 million people and we have 4. The UK has a catchment of 60 million plus close and easy proximity to Europe via the channel tunnel.
Even if everyone in the north island who REALLY wanted to race, did so with their older sports cars, we still wouldn't have a full grid.
If there really was a demand for period purism, why doesn't TACCOC have an over subscribed grid of them, as they have run meetings for the purists? This argument is constantly advanced by critics of our series yet there are already alternatives for the purists, but we still don't see them competing. We only do six meetings a season, leaving plenty of space for others to run other series if they so desire
Classic Trials also caters for those with classic sports cars but we have only really seen a few - Arthur's TR3 for example and Mike Sexton's Austin Healeys. Traditionally, that has been the stepping stone for many drivers and if they were over subscribed, or over represented, a grid for them would very soon have been established.
As Rhys Nolan has already found out, the same applies to older saloons. They have never been excluded from race meetings and when given a grid of their own, there is little support. The opportunity to race pure cars has never ever been denied but if there was a real demand, then where are they?
I grew up when a sports car grid contained interesting cars and there were many makes and specials (Tojeiro, HRG, Keift, Lea Francis, Lister, Turner, anyone?). Over the years, fewer and fewer makes of sports cars were available and not many people these days own or drive sports cars.
Those that have survived are rarely raced not because they are facing modern technology but racing is hard on the car. A sector of our sport believes that you shouldn't lock away the scarce and valuable wings or trim and fit fibreglass replicas or fit a bullet proof gearbox, and that doesn't help get them on track either. Others believe that even with a full cage, you have to wreck a dash board or a rear seat and refit them or refit a headlining. Lets not discuss roll protection!
These issues are excluding cars and maybe some should be looking at the real reasons why cars are not out on the track instead of pointing fingers at areas where cars are running.
Don’t get me wrong Ray. I’m not criticizing your ERC series, or the fact you’re racing at the Festival in 2015. I applaud your efforts in running an excellent, well organised class that caters to, and welcomes a great variety of classic car owners, with an emphasis placed on fun, safe motor racing. I think your being included at the Festival is just reward for your efforts. And, it should be remembered, the organisers haven’t excluded another class to allow ERC to enter. So, really, whats the harm?
As the moderator of this website/forum, I’ve usually made an effort to remain neutral on most subjects, and have avoided making criticism of the NZ motorsport governing body. But in my opinion, many of the issues we’re seeing now are the result of decades of long-term neglect at the top level, and of letting the historic side of the sport run amuck for the last thirty years.
Remember, Australia may have a larger population, but competitors also have a much greater distance to travel to national events, so usually stay within their local State, be it Queensland, Victoria, NSW etc. New Zealand, on the other hand, is a small, compact country, with eight race tracks, and is a relatively inexpensive place to go motor racing, when being compared to other countries.
CAMS, the Australian motorsport governing body, was pro-active and forward-thinking, by implementing rules to create historic racing groups forty years ago, and has gone to great lengths to then protect what they’ve created. Likewise, they’ve moved with the times, creating new groups to then embrace newer cars, as they become older, but the rules have been produced just as thoughtfully, to ensure period correctness, within reason. Certainly, they’re not perfect, but at the same time, I personally prefer what they’ve achieved over what we currently have in NZ. Of course, CAMS are far better financed than Motorsport NZ, and those involved in the governing of the historic side of NZ racing are often doing so as enthusiasts, paying their own way, rather than being paid for the work they do, which in itself deserves great admiration. I’m also encouraged by what I’ve seen regarding some of the efforts being made by the NZ governing body towards paving the way to a more historically focused future.
It should be noted, that much of the discontent and confusion in NZ historic racing relates to saloon cars. Other historic racing groups, such as Formula 5000, Historic Formula Ford, Formula Junior etc, all feature cars prepared as period correct, ie, as they raced in period. Imagine the response if someone turned up to run with Historic Formula Ford in a 35 year old Van Diemen fitted with a turbocharged Sierra Cosworth motor, 5-speed sequential gearbox, and slick tyres. How quickly would they be asked to leave? Yet, in the saloon car side of historic racing, this scenario is so common, people think you’re a pioneer (or insane) to consider the prospect of fielding a grid of period correct cars. If it can be done in historic single seater racing, why is it so inconceivable in historic saloon car racing?
In historic saloon car racing, with much less guidance, and more fragmentation throughout the country, a case of ‘anything goes’ has become the norm, and we’ve seen numerous off-shoots all head in different directions, making up their own rules. And this has nothing to do with population size. The cars are out there racing, its just that they’re not period correct, as those in various historic single seater categories are. Why would someone go to the effort of building a period correct, Lotus twin-cam powered Escort to T&C or Schedule K rules when they’re likely to be racing against a similar make/model fitted with modern technology, which is therefore much faster? Further still, if someone owned an original car that raced in period, why would they want to bring it out to race against a modern variant, hidden beneath the silhouette of an old car? Honestly, if someone is given the option to fit modern technology into their car to make it faster, of course they’re going to do this. But is this historic racing?
And this is the underlying problem in NZ historic car racing. Because there has never been any policing of regulations from the top, as there are in other countries, so the interpretation of what actually constitutes a historic race car has become so blurred, even those racing in it are confused. And so now, we have this situation where people argue over what does, and what doesn’t constitute a historic racing car. Some argue that as long as the classic silhouette is still there, its OK to have modern technology underneath, because the punters in the grandstands don’t know the difference. Others say historic racing is a celebration of motorsport of the past, and therefore, historic racing cars should be built to represent how cars raced in period.
Yes, I agree, the handicapping system does level the playing field, but is this not a band-aid approach that masks a greater problem? Again, I’m not criticizing your group Ray, and indeed, I think handicapping could even be utilized in historic racing with period correct cars, as even when period correct, not all cars are created equal. But you have suggested handicapping to be the answer to a great many issues, whereas, to my mind, handicapping is required because of the infiltration into historic racing of modern technology, which has increased the speed difference between fast and slow cars.
I know you disagree with pretty well everything I’ve written above, and that’s OK, as this is only my opinion. I’m not trying to suggest I’m right, but in other posts, and other threads, you’ve made it known your preference to a large field of non-period correct cars over a small or medium sized field of period correct cars. So this in itself opens the door for discussion, which is all I’m doing.
Back to that 50 car production sports car grid at the Phillip Island Classic. Given the size of Australia, and even with 16 million people, to form a 50 car grid suggests that, around Australia, there are four or five times this number of similar cars, conforming to these same rules, that weren’t at this event. Working on that theory (an assumption, I know), surely putting together even a 25 or 30 car grid of similar cars, and even with a cut-off date through to 1977, if working off a set of T&C or Schedule K rules, is not that far-fetched? But then again, is it already too late?
John McKechnie
03-17-2014, 01:40 AM
With the older and more delicate cars, a rolling start is more easier on the machinery, and also relieve congestion in first corners with less chance of damage.
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to do rolling starts using the handicap system?
I don't disagree with anything purporting to be Historic, but once again, I have never ever claimed that our group is Historic!
Whether you are running Historic Muscle cars, Historic Single seaters or Historic saloons, the title says it all.
Why do people try and compare our group to any historic group running to a very clearly defined formula? The broad umbrella is "Classic and Historic" (and the as yet undefined, Thoroughbred).
Running a Formula Junior is straightforward. You run to the Historic Formula Junior regulations of the period, ditto Historic Formula Fords or F5000s.
As Steve rightly points out, saloons are a slightly different animal, given that there have been any number of series with tight rules from Escort Mexicos up to and including BMW E30s and there have also been any number of races just for 'saloon cars', being cars with a roof and 'sports cars' being cars without a roof, both in race and road trim.
If we were pushing the ERC Series as an Historic Series, then our rules would be totally different.
But as we have cars of different capacities, ages and genres and even different levels of modification, we are more Classic & Thoroughbred, even though according to some critics, all cars are fitted with modern componentry which they obviously aren't...
Handicapping is essential where there is a performance discrepancy between the cars as without it, those running 1500cc cars don't turn up - which happened in the NZ built and Clubmans class which ended up with everyone running 2 litres and turbos and the 1300cc and 1500cc guys wanted to join our group - which we couldn't accept.
crunch
03-17-2014, 01:53 AM
With the older and more delicate cars, a rolling start is more easier on the machinery, and also relieve congestion in first corners with less chance of damage.
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to do rolling starts using the handicap system?
...use a wheelchair? :rolleyes::o
nzeder
03-17-2014, 01:54 AM
Maybe some of these posts could be moved into an existing thread - there are a few on this forum that are around T&C, Schedule K rules. So this can return to back to ERC related info - after all this is Ray topic.
Some good info/opinions in here but I would like to see this in a thread about T&C, Schedule K in general. I think it is good to see these opinions/debate. I just feel it might be better placed in a thread/topic that is more relevant to the direction that this has moved to. Or am I wrong?
John McKechnie
03-17-2014, 01:56 AM
...use a wheelchair? :rolleyes::o
motorized?
crunch
03-17-2014, 01:58 AM
But in my opinion, many of the issues we’re seeing now are the result of decades of long-term neglect at the top level, and of letting the historic side of the sport run amuck for the last thirty years.
Personally; I think that comment has a lot of merit. It probably all started when the COD was initially given to every car that was around when the system started! So the system was flawed right from the start. Gone is any meaningful sense of the word Throughbred from our sport.
I did try to bring H&C more into line with the CAMS model about 6 years ago, but was met with a lynch mob at an Auckland meeting who wanted to string me up by the proverbials for daring to suggest it.
Tuesday will be interesting...
nzeder
03-17-2014, 03:08 AM
Tuesday will be interesting...So what is happening on Tuesday????
John McKechnie
03-17-2014, 03:17 AM
Yet another day of talking about this probably...........
AMCO72
03-17-2014, 04:22 AM
The fact that the Festival Committee has seen fit to include the ERC series in its line up for 2015, should have silenced the critics, but clearly it hasn't.
crunch
03-17-2014, 04:28 AM
The fact that the Festival Committee has seen fit to include the ERC series in its line up for 2015, should have silenced the critics, but clearly it hasn't.
Maybe that's because the Festival decision was a commercial one, as opposed to people discussing the sporting aspects of what Historic racing is?
Just saying...
rogered
03-17-2014, 05:00 AM
Just to remind anyone as to why we approached the Festival Committee, these are the programme grid numbers for each class - BEFORE attrition set in. I also checked on the finishers for each final race of each group but I see no need to publish those here but they tell the real story as to why the spectator view and opinion is so crucial at an event fairly and squarely targeted at getting spectators along.
F5000 & F1 – 23 cars
Historic Muscle Cars & Pre 78 Historic Saloons – 10 + 13 = 23 cars.
Heritage Touring Cars - 13
Pre 78 & Invited Sports, Sports Racing & GT cars. – 20 cars.
Pre 85 Historic Allcomers & Sports Sedans – 24 cars
BMW Open class – 16 cars
Classic Trials – 36 cars
Historic Formula Fords – 25 cars
BMW E30s – 19 cars
FJ/F3 & Invited Historics – 14 cars
Historic Formula Libre – 17
If this is our showcase meeting, then why wouldn't you want at least one full grid? Far from diluting the Festival, even if you discount any ERC cars anyone believes is marginal, we'd still be putting more genuine cars on the grid than almost any other group, so why is that so wrong?
The grid limit at HD for saloons is I believe 44 or 46 cars, so any saloon grid as above with empty spaces, tells its own story.
Notice the group with the most entries quietly flies below the radar, and happily does their own thing, with out all this "codswallop".
AMCO72
03-17-2014, 05:01 AM
Yes, but its not as if Ray had offered them $100,000 to be included. They obviously think the cars are worthy competitors, and are not going to dilute the special nature of the event, which is one of the core arguments of HMC.
Crunch, I think that you'll find that many CoD's were in fact refused for spurious reasons in the early days of the system and as it came out not long before there was a move to make them compulsory, the system started off on the wrong foot and in some respects, has never really recovered. Fear of not being allowed to compete was the only reason I got mine (and others who like me are still on the earliest version) and it has never been out of the envelope since the day it arrived.
Am I the only one on here that wants a clear distinction between Historic and Classic? All Historic cars are also classic, but not all Classic cars could be deemed historic.
A CoD is somehow seen as a magic document but as JAFA pointed out elsewhere, they can be out of date quite quickly even though the car may still confirm to the current T & C rules.
Why are the "rules" T & C yet everyone is arguing about Historic? Why does the HMC Series need to tighten up if the "rules" are bullet proof? In other words, you can have a car built to T & C and have a CoD, but will still be refused entry to the HMC Series as your car may not conform or be accepted as we all know that a CoD is no guarantee of acceptance in any grid or any meeting.
That power is still held by Series organisers and meeting promoters which is exactly the course we have always adopted. The inconsistency of saying that OUR cars do not conform to T & C nor have to have a CoD is compared to a series where even with them, you still may not be allowed to race, is one of those ironies that most seem to have missed. I love it!
Parnelli
03-17-2014, 06:20 AM
With the older and more delicate cars, a rolling start is more easier on the machinery, and also relieve congestion in first corners with less chance of damage.
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to do rolling starts using the handicap system?
What with 3 piece alloy rims, forged axles, truetrack centres, Jerico boxes, 3 plate race clutches, dry sump engine, willwood race brakes etc there is not too much old and delicate parts left to break on HMC cars ! And I guess there is also no first corner congestion with handicap starts .
With the older and more delicate cars, a rolling start is more easier on the machinery, and also relieve congestion in first corners with less chance of damage.
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to do rolling starts using the handicap system?
Not too difficult John just as long as each driver knows their row/place and how long after the flag they are supposed to go. A bit like yachting really as all they have to do is trundle along until each row gets the flag, but it may require co-operation between race control and starter - but don't expect every driver to understand and conform!
John McKechnie
03-17-2014, 08:50 AM
Parnelli- I am the Historic Sports Sedan coordinator and as such I am asking a sensible question here on adding some variation to this new class, and I dont understand why you brought HMC into this.
Ray- thank you for this imput, I knew you wouldnt let me down.
We will talk before 29th.
John, our handicap system is quite comprehensive (so it should be after 18 years!) and relies on a mix of historical and current lap times with each car. It all runs from a spreadsheet for each track and as long as you have someone who is half way competent with an Excel spreadsheet, pretty straightforward to run.
I can start setting one up for you very easily at the Legends meeting to give you some idea if you want. What is important to remember is that regardless of how good the handicapping in theory, on track, just one incident or one driver not moving over to let a faster car through, can turn it all to custard. But, as long as the drivers accept the vagaries of handicap racing and also see the advantages of everyone finishing on the same lap - or quarter lap and everyone getting a race, then all is sweet.
John McKechnie
03-17-2014, 10:36 AM
Its simply a matter of the spacings between the cars as they are rolling towards the starter.
We can talk on the day.Thanks Ray.
Andrew Metford
03-17-2014, 01:06 PM
Dale, you have started up the HMC because you saw a lot of big bore saloons sitting around with nowhere to race. Good job. You also admit that there are some cars in the ERC series that are period correct. So, where are the period correct SMALL BORE cars supposed to race? There is no class for such a car, and they are all comfortable racing in the ERC series. They accept that there are other cars there less period correct than theirs, but with the handicapping system, every single car on the grid whether period correct or a "hot rod club car" as you like to call them, has the same chance of winning a race and winning the series. There's also no Dukes of Hazard-style driving, so the risk of an accident is the same as if it was a grid of only period correct cars. At the end of the day no one wants to bend their car, much less someone else's, and everyone knows you get a chocolate fish if you win the series, and the series points are not published after each round, only after the final round, so no one has any idea where they are points-wise anyway!!!
In an ideal world we would have enough period correct small bore cars to have their own full grid, and the ERC series would have its' own full grid as well, but we don't live in an ideal world so you have to make the most of what you have and try to be reasonable in accommodating as many cars as possible without taking the whole thing too far off the rails. Having a 1 man committee to my mind makes this a lot more achievable, and since the 1 man committee has been in place there haven't been ( to my knowledge ) the various drama's that used to occur with the panel committee of old.
Whether you want to admit it of not, any form of motor racing will always revolve around the chequebook, and the grid will reflect that. Someone could build a car that will conform to you HMC rules, but it won't be anywhere near as fast as your car because they mightn't have a spare $125K to throw at it ( price to buy the PDL car, but I don't think the engine in that car is up to yours? ), so the cheque book thing is irrelevant.
Carlo
03-17-2014, 07:28 PM
Quite interesting reading all this discussion on a local area clubmans race formula, the passion is tremendous, long may it continue.
Parnelli
03-17-2014, 09:06 PM
Parnelli- I am the Historic Sports Sedan coordinator and as such I am asking a sensible question here on adding some variation to this new class, and I dont understand why you brought HMC into this.
Ray- thank you for this imput, I knew you wouldnt let me down.
We will talk before 29th.
Hi John , The majority of discussion on this particular thread of late has been about the perceived eligibility of Ray’s class to run at the festival. Subjects covered a range of topics about and by participants in ERC, HMC, HSS, and other classes. Your statement and question were not specific to HSS, so given that HMC does not run handicap races and are looking to use rolling starts, then my comments are perfectly relevant to the current issues.
From my perspective it is important that the various class structures and philosophies are discussed openly. We have supported the HMC concept from day one and we have also supported John and the historic saloons class.
Over recent years we seem to have had the pre 65 class for older race saloons, several Muscle car classes, each with its own rules and philosophy and ourselves with cars effectively in road-going guise.
The gap in the system was for race saloons post '65 and to a degree, there is still a bit of a gap for more recently built race saloons but based on classic components, or replicas of race saloons.
The HMC series hasn't filled a gap as such, but reflects that in some of the other muscle car classes, cars were more race saloons than original. That means that a period correct car would be outclassed, but could still run. So the HMC is a sub division of something that already existed.
We have accepted one or two thinly disguised race saloons (John Dennehey's ex-Halliday Escort, Adrian Dobbe's Vauxhall and even the ex- GT Forsyth MG V8 with wider wheels, no lights and huge wing).
We gave them a platform as there was no other suitable class. The same applies to the Datsun Z's. At the time, there was no other class for cars which we believed added colour and value to the classic race scene. At long last, John has grabbed the potential for those race saloons. The MG V8 has been toned down though it is still marginal - but we were backed by the MGCC in our early days and still support MG anyway! (Wait until you see what we have allowed Grant Kern to run at the Legend's Meeting, whilst the MG V8 gearbox is being rebuilt...)
Steve Melhuish was encouraged to set up a grid for Japanese Classics and although we would never exclude JD, Adrian or the Z drivers, (why should we?) it is their choice as much as ours to allow them to continue.
Dale's comment about committees also has a distinct lack of understanding as to how some committees, instead of isolating self-interest, have shown that it rubber stamps it, or, the committee elects to not listen to its drivers anyway. As a result, the Datsun Z guys have elected to stick with us and drivers of several of our larger cars who went off to try one of the muscle car classes a few years ago, (in parallel) soon abandoned that foray and just carried on with us! Note also the number of BMWs that are now racing with us.
I take that as a support for what we are doing or, that our niche is just that. A bit of a catch all class, but so what? JAFA's post above highlights another issue we are aware of which is why we accepted the Torana 6 and would also seriously consider any others plus Falcons or Commodore 6's where they felt that they were being swamped by the larger capacity V8s.
So we strayed from 100% pre 1977 Euro? Big deal! The series started off 28 years ago as 4 cylinder BMC! No different from my favourite jazz band. It started off in 1954 with a six piece line up, then added, shock, horror, an electric blues guitar. So some purists fans walked out. Then they added another reeds player to the front line. Then, years later, three extra players to the front line. That upset a few more, but guess what, 60 years later they are still around and still led by the same musician who started a co-operative band in 1953, but eventually realised that it was better to have a leader who looked after everything.
The difference is that even as a one man band, I regularly poll all drivers so that all are consulted before major decisions are made, which is what happened with the 2015 Festival. Had we not had the support, then we wouldn't have made the approach. Significantly, I didn't get a single response saying we shouldn't go ahead. A positive 30% poll return is better than average, so even if the other 70% are not keen, they haven't indicated any objections either, so I am not blind to the fact that there may well be some who are not keen, but they obviously don't feel too strongly about it.
RogerH
03-18-2014, 02:29 AM
With respect Ray, I don't think your poll result is surprising - of course many of the ERC participants who have cars the were previously ineligible for the Festival would have been as keen as mustard to be allowed in.
An interesting poll would have been the one from the exiting Festival competitors as to how they felt about the standards of the Festival being changed to let previously non-compliant cars compete.
Roger, The ones who were the keenest for an ERC grid next year were 16 drivers who had competed at previous festivals with eligible cars who did NOT enter this year. Surely what is important, is WHY those 16 didn't enter in 2014 but are keen to run in 2015 in an ERC grid.
nzeder
03-18-2014, 08:41 AM
Well put JAFA and Ray - a number of the car would not have a place to play if the ERC grid did not exist. I am thank full that once my car is complete it will have a grid to run in.
I have the wrong car for the festival as the Datsun Z cars are GT/Sport Cars so we have to run with cars that are 100% race cars designed for one thing the track. The Datsun Z car is not a big car but towers over the real sports cars who barely come up to a lowered Zed door. I have not raced at a festival but having watched this grid it is not a place I would want to run in and in period the zed did not complete against these sports cars aka Mallocks but against other production based GT cars. By production I am talking about mass produced road going cars.
Years ago I owned a very tidy Datsun 160Jsss and my plan was to race this as a classic car - but this was pre festival but there was no grid for a car like this in Auckland other than clubmans. So I sold the car (which I do regret as they are so rare these days and it was the tidiest ones I have seen that was not hacked up with modern engine) but as it is a 2 door saloon it would have a place in the festival - The Datsun 160Jsss was Datsun must successful rally car so that was shame. So it was sold and I purchase a motorbike again.
So I now have a zed again which does have grid at non Festival events however at the festival there is no suitable grid in my opinion as all production based grids are for Saloons only - even grids like the U3L which will allow non saloons during the season will only accept saloon at the festival.
I know I have wrong car still - I should be racing another Escort or BMW or something. But I like Datsun - they were the Japanese manufacture that was trying something different, they were racing in the US, EU and in AU/NZ with the 1600 and 1200. their cars were different with things like IRS, odd body shapes (160J, 100A Cherry's, 240K, Skylines S54, Skyline C10 and the Zed cars the most EU type styling of them all)
If money was not object then it would be a S54 Prince/Nissan Skyline and the one Carlos Neate used to race here in NZ that I would love to own and it is a shame it is no longer in NZ but living in Australia where it only comes out for demo laps - I would race it as it was as it should be. However I bet the owner would not sell it + I don't have the coin he would want for the car anyway.
So if ERC is to put up a grid in the 2015 festival what cars do people have issues with? Which cars from the grid are the issues? I think I know which ones people have issues with and I have seen these car at the festival in the past so what actually is the problem??? Or have I missed something?
Dale you mentioned how would I feel if a Hot Rod Datsun Z car was to line up against my period correct car. Well I know that Ray would not allow a Hot Rod Datsun Z in his grid and if one was to appear it would only be once until it is pointed out how much of a hot rod it actually is. This has happened to a Datsun Z car - one that has modern RB30DE with DCOE ITB EFI that currently is listed on Trademe - it is not allowed to race in the ERC grid as it is not a T&C compliant car. So how would I feel - shore it would not be nice to have period correct car getting its A#$ handed to it my a modern engine conversion but it should as hell would be fun to give it a good run for its money showing how old school can still give modern tech a big wake up call. Now that would put a smile on your face ;)
The Datsun Z Club holds a driving training day (at taupo for the last few years) and it is a lot of fun to see modern technology 300ZX twin turbo's with 500+ HP lap slower (not that we are taking lap times but with modern smart phones that have built in stop watch who is not going to just check the difference out) than a old school Datsun 240z with triple carbs a little suspension work go around faster. Sure there might be a 300zx track car there that is quick (Mike Corey) but an equivalent track 240z can be (not always) quicker and that is fun (1400KG va 1000KG might have a lot to do with too)
Although some pics posted on the Legend's thread, here's a few more:
24507
24508
24509
24510
24511
24512
24513
24514
24515
Long time racer John Hudson beat the handicapper (again - we forgot to knock him for his earlier win!) and therefore claimed the bottle of Moet.
24516
Ricky
03-31-2014, 04:56 AM
Some in car of the second handicap race, I couldn't catch the escort I think Ivan's added nitrous.
Great racing though the handicap was a little tough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=391b_irbQXY&list=UUmh5FkC8_PBHRtMuj3FA63w
That video is the first handicap Ricky, not the second.
Ivan had flat spotted his treaded tyres and fitted slicks, without telling me - which is of course not allowed. (I have noticed that his left front has been locking up under braking for ages.) This tyre change was noticed by other drivers and an observant pit lane official but it was too late to change the handicap, so he was allowed to run, but romped away, which was a bit naughty.
However, although he was first across the line, the bottle of Moet went to John Sampson who finished second and as you still managed third in race 2, you will have been promoted to second!
Just had a discussion about Dot rated tyres and will be making a ruling clarification shortly.
I haven't looked at your ERC in car as yet, but congratulations for your very restrained driving in the other class, where it appears that there are some people who do not believe in giving the faster cars an easy run through in the handicaps!
PS: Now I have seen the above video, it is pretty obvious why you couldn't get ahead and unfortunately, you only need someone to slow you by 1 second a lap (turn 2/3...) but you are then way back at the finish.
Excellent picture quality by the way.
Allan
03-31-2014, 09:32 PM
The third picture of post 154 epitomizes what ERC is all about. Six car and six different makes, MG, Alfa, Fiat, Renault, BMW and Citroen.
Allan
03-31-2014, 09:35 PM
That should be the third picture of post 154
RacerT
04-01-2014, 01:28 AM
Ivan had flat spotted his treaded tyres and fitted slicks, without telling me - which is of course not allowed. This was noticed by other drivers and an observant pit lane official but it was too late to change the handicap, so he was allowed to run, but romped away, which was a bit naughty.
However, although he was first across the line, the bottle of Moet went to John Sampson who finished second and as you still managed third, you will have been promoted to second!
Just had a discussion about Dot rated tyres and will be making a ruling clarification shortly.
I haven't looked at your ERC in car as yet, but congratulations for your very restrained driving in the other class, where it appears that there are some people who do not believe in giving the faster cars an easy run through in the handicaps!
Hi Ray
A couple of thoughts on the series.
The tyre question is looming and we saw one car with the Hankook Ventus twin striped tyres in the weekend. This is the tyre that the Central Muscle Car guys use and it is very soft. In comparison with a Toyo 100 hardness and Kumho 80 hardness the Ventus is 40 hardness (a slick is 35!), so virtually a slick. In talking to CMC guys it has increased wear and tear on suspension and drive trains and the wear is very rapid, as you would expect for a tyre so soft. This is DOT approved, but not warrantable.
I think setting a time bar of 1.13 at Hampton Downs would be a good idea, as this helps prevent the escalation of speed and modifications. The CMC boys tell me that a 2 second gain is appropriate from the Hankooks. That would place my Corvette in the 1.10 area, which would be no good for the series. I am in the process of slowing the Corvette by fitting period correct 15" wheels and the old spec tyres. Just my opinion!
nzeder
04-01-2014, 02:10 AM
Well done Tony, that is a big change to go to the 15" rims on the Corvette and for some (not sure if this is case for you) it could mean brake changes to allow for the 15" rim fitment - a cost that might not be as simple as new rubber and rim. This could change the Corvette grip level too.
If we have more do this - change their cars to meat the rules (Ricky changed from 16" rims down to 15" a while back, and I have seen others do the same over the past 12+ months) then we will have more compliant cars out there it might facilitate others to change too ie remove their sequential gearbox, cosworth engines, EFI on cars never sold with EFI.
Thanks Tony. I have just put out a newsletter expanding on this. The AES handicap final race with 22 on the sheet had spread of just 30 seconds from flag drop to last away.
The final Arrows grid also with 22 cars had a 70 second spread and as you know, this was the first day that anyone had ever beaten the provisional 1:13 speed bar.
Putting this is perspective, we started off with a speed bar of 1:12 - OLD Pukekohe track in 1996... and that was generally 10 seconds from the Hampton Downs times, so an initial 1:22 at HD would have been the break out. Now that is almost the breakout for the AES group!
Tyres have improved out of sight over recent years and led to quicker lap times, rather more than any other performance modifications. Maybe the classic scene is going to have to look at tyres that may well be DoT rated but not 100% road legal and suspect in wet weather, as apparently they have no lateral grooves to dispel water. Are they in fact outside the spirit of the regulations?
Should the H & C Commission investigate this and make a ruling or a guideline?
Kiwiboss
04-01-2014, 03:07 AM
Well done Tony, that is a big change to go to the 15" rims on the Corvette and for some (not sure if this is case for you) it could mean brake changes to allow for the 15" rim fitment - a cost that might not be as simple as new rubber and rim. This could change the Corvette grip level too.
If we have more do this - change their cars to meat the rules (Ricky changed from 16" rims down to 15" a while back, and I have seen others do the same over the past 12+ months) then we will have more compliant cars out there it might facilitate others to change too ie remove their sequential gearbox, cosworth engines, EFI on cars never sold with EFI.
Too rite Nzeder, the feed back from the weekend within the Historic and Classic movement is several are considering fitting period correct size wheels and historic type tyres so we have a bit of trend going on here!! several in the U3L cars have question me on availability of the Hoosier bias tyre in the correct size so they are thinking about it!! Certainly with our bigger HMC cars its the way only to slow them down, have period correctness, and put on a show the way the cars rock and roll as in the past.
Personally, I luv driving on the big ol rolly bias tyres as it gets your attention for sure and tests your skill, LOL
Dale M
Ricky
04-01-2014, 06:32 AM
Sundays race 3 handicap, great race got thru the cars better but still couldn't get to the front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_pcENjaUs&list=UUmh5FkC8_PBHRtMuj3FA63w
crunch
04-01-2014, 07:05 AM
Tyres have improved out of sight over recent years and led to quicker lap times, rather more than any other performance modifications. Maybe the classic scene is going to have to look at tyres that may well be DoT rated but not 100% road legal and suspect in wet weather, as apparently they have no lateral grooves to dispel water. Are they in fact outside the spirit of the regulations?
Should the H & C Commission investigate this and make a ruling or a guideline?
What about it being a topic of discussion at the AGCM H&C workshop? If you cant make it to the workshop at Conference; send me your written submissions at crunch1@xtra.co.nz
CobraV8
04-01-2014, 07:13 AM
One benefit of slicks and race dot tyres is that they grip and can actually last longer than slidy lower spec tyres. If you are trying to encourage more drivers good tyres will help the budget issues.
What about it being a topic of discussion at the AGCM H&C workshop? If you cant make it to the workshop at Conference; send me your written submissions at crunch1@xtra.co.nz
I think Tony is already on to it Crunch.
One benefit of slicks and race dot tyres is that they grip and can actually last longer than slidy lower spec tyres. If you are trying to encourage more drivers good tyres will help the budget issues.
Remember this is a 'road-going' series CobraV8 and although some cars are now trailered, the aim is to be able to turn up, empty the boot and go racing.
As soon as you allow non road legal tyres, the cars are then effectively racers. I had a discussion with Dale's mate Mike at the weekend and we debated at what point a car no longer becomes a road car and is a race car. His take is that when a cage is fitted and my stance is when the tyres are no longer road legal.
To me, fitting a cage is simply a piece safety of equipment that doesn't make the car go faster and the car is generally still road legal.
Fitting race tyres however immediately renders the car illegal for road use. It also ups the costs of competition.
nzeder
04-01-2014, 08:06 AM
I agree Ray, a cage is a safety item like a fire extinguisher, helmet, suit etc. If we took 2 standard same spec viva's one with a cage one without handed the keys to your tame racing driver they should both perform about the same. The extra weight of the cage will be offset by any chassis improvement. So in theory both should still be the same aka road cars just one has a safety cage.
I guess that is why the T&C rules are like they are pre 78 more engine, suspension, brake mods permitted but tyre aspect ratio and rim size limited. Post 78 more freedom on rims and rubber but limited engine, suspension and only brake material changes permitted (no big brake kits)
Carlo
04-01-2014, 08:25 AM
Remember this is a 'road-going' series CobraV8 and although some cars are now trailered, the aim is to be able to turn up, empty the boot and go racing.
As soon as you allow non road legal tyres, the cars are then effectively racers. I had a discussion with Dale's mate Mike at the weekend and we debated at what point a car no longer becomes a road car and is a race car. His take is that when a cage is fitted and my stance is when the tyres are no longer road legal.
To me, fitting a cage is simply a piece safety of equipment that doesn't make the car go faster and the car is generally still road legal.
Fitting race tyres however immediately renders the car illegal for road use. It also ups the costs of competition.
It becomes a race car when it no longer has Registration, and a WOF, and a Motorsport Authority Card and Low Volume Vehicle Certification as all these items are required for road use with competition cars these days
It becomes a race car when it no longer has Registration, and a WOF, and a Motorsport Authority Card and Low Volume Vehicle Certification as all these items are required for road use with competition cars these days
Not quite. I opted to take my standard road car running on road tyres but fitted with full harness belts, off the road as it wasn't financially viable to keep it warranted. The cost per km and inconvenience of keeping it warranted and registered and an annual authority card for zero road miles a year does not suddenly turn it into a race car. No need for a LVVTA plate on a standard car.
Equally, I can't get the MG on the road legally, because the welded repairs done 9 years ago, do not have a repair certificate, so even with an LVVTA plate and an LVVTA approved cage (not MSNZ approved) and road belts, road tyres and up to WoF standard, built as a road car can't be registered, as the compliance won't register it without that certificate, but again, it doesn't magically become a race car just through the lack of a piece of paper.
Sure, a car can be modified and be road legal in a higher state of tune than a standard car used for racing, (U2K Cup for example), but the end use doesn't re-categorise the car.
Parnelli
04-01-2014, 11:09 AM
I agree Ray, a cage is a safety item like a fire extinguisher, helmet, suit etc. If we took 2 standard same spec viva's one with a cage one without handed the keys to your tame racing driver they should both perform about the same. The extra weight of the cage will be offset by any chassis improvement. So in theory both should still be the same aka road cars just one has a safety cage.
I guess that is why the T&C rules are like they are pre 78 more engine, suspension, brake mods permitted but tyre aspect ratio and rim size limited. Post 78 more freedom on rims and rubber but limited engine, suspension and only brake material changes permitted (no big brake kits)
Hi Mike, Can you clarify your statement about no “ big brake kits “ under T&C rules. Previous discussion on a different thread was stating something similar and that such cars with Willwoods fitted were being rejected for C.O.D.’s Other groups running under T&C rules claim Willwoods to be period correct and are getting C.O.D.’s with them fitted. Is this one rule for one class and other for another class or just another failing of the C.O.D. system ?
Kiwiboss
04-01-2014, 11:23 AM
One benefit of slicks and race dot tyres is that they grip and can actually last longer than slidy lower spec tyres. If you are trying to encourage more drivers good tyres will help the budget issues.
No No CobraV8, sticky slicks and cheater DOT tyres have a soft rubber compound hence wear quicker, its the ability to adhere to the track that counts as a harder road compound tyre resists more and the reason why you get tyre squeal when corning hard, the softer DOT or slick does not squeal(so much) but is shedding rubber you can't see until its worn out, the very reason why V8 Supercars have tyre changes during races!! and as we know this comes at a cost, EG: need more tyres.
On older cars a quick speed fix is to add modern technology slick type tyres that can over come the older suspension systems but the flip side to this is a huge wear rate on the tyre, i would be 2 sec's a lap quicker around Hampton in the mustang but could shred a full set of slicks in a weekend, that's not cheap racing and only forces others to do the same!!
Too me it doesn't matter what the tyre is as long as all are on it but you also must use caution as the more serious racer may fit a new set every race to have that slight advantage(its been done) but at this stage one should question what they are at "Classic or Historic" events for, but some just can't help themselves! atleast Rays handicapping sorts these gentlemen out, LOL
Dale M
nzeder
04-01-2014, 11:41 AM
Parnelli,
In regard to your question if you look at the T&C rules Group 3 and Group 4 is for saloons or sports/GT cars from 31 December 1977 to upto 15 years old.
Then if you then look at the brakes the only permitted mods are friction materials ie pads etc. Rotors and calipers can't be changed from the oem items or oem spec items. Eg wilwoods are aftermarket caliper so not oem so can't be used on a post 77 T&C compliant car.
RogerH
04-01-2014, 12:17 PM
Parnelli,
In regard to your question if you look at the T&C rules Group 3 and Group 4 is for saloons or sports/GT cars from 31 December 1977 to upto 15 years old.
Then if you then look at the brakes the only permitted mods are friction materials ie pads etc. Rotors and calipers can't be changed from the oem items or oem spec items. Eg wilwoods are aftermarket caliper so not oem so can't be used on a post 77 T&C compliant car.
That may be the case for a post December 1977 car but the T&C rules are different for pre 31 December 1977 cars.
For these pre cars, brakes are "free" subject to disc and drum friction surfaces being ferrous. "Free" means that the original part may be replaced with a newer part as long as the new part provides no additional function relative to the original part and must be from the same era and was available or used on that make and model in period. "Era" means the period when a particular vehicle model and its components were actively used in motor sport competition.
This could be interpreted to mean that an original 4 pot calliper could be changed to a Wilwood 4 pot of similar dimensions if it could be proved that the Wilwood (or the form of calliper on which the Wilwood was based?) was available to be used in the period (era) related to the subject car.
nzeder
04-01-2014, 06:59 PM
That may be the case for a post December 1977 car but the T&C rules are different for pre 31 December 1977 cars.
For these pre cars, brakes are "free" subject to disc and drum friction surfaces being ferrous. "Free" means that the original part may be replaced with a newer part as long as the new part provides no additional function relative to the original part and must be from the same era and was available or used on that make and model in period. "Era" means the period when a particular vehicle model and its components were actively used in motor sport competition.
This could be interpreted to mean that an original 4 pot calliper could be changed to a Wilwood 4 pot of similar dimensions if it could be proved that the Wilwood (or the form of calliper on which the Wilwood was based?) was available to be used in the period (era) related to the subject car.correct.
Howard Wood
04-01-2014, 08:36 PM
One benefit of slicks and race dot tyres is that they grip and can actually last longer than slidy lower spec tyres. If you are trying to encourage more drivers good tyres will help the budget issues.
Despite Dale's reply, by and large I think you are right. The Dunlop (DoT and NZ road legal) tyres I use come in Soft, Medium and Hard. Many of the other BMW series guys also use them and the tyre life, particularly the Soft and particularly at Taupo can be alarming. I screwed out a Soft set in a weekend of qualifying and 3 races before changing back to the mediums. However they are quicker and the tyre performance deteriorates noticeably as they wear so if your budget was not an issue, guess what?
The Hankook in question is a G51 compound and in slick form will last V8ST long format races with no deterioration and there are several class A BMW guys who use second hand V8ST tyres, they do seem to deteriorate with multiple heat cycles but don't wear out. The question of going away from DoT tyres comes up each year at the BMW series AGM and the argument for slicks is always a cost based one, many of the front running class B guys would love to be able to run the Hankooks as well.
If there is no series rules, eg ERC or BMW (or indeed HMC) that specify DoT AND NZ road legal then I can't see any reason why the Hankook is any different to the Hoosier for a meeting such as NZFMR. Both are a DoT compliant semi race tyre, both have reasonable tyre life and are (relatively) cheap.
Neil Tolich has sent me a very good email stating a case and I have passed that on to Crunch and Tony.
There are arguments for and against (aren't there always!) but my own take is that if a driver comes along with his road car and one spare wheel, then we know exactly what to expect in terms of track performance and lap times.
I have a pile of emails thanking us for the season and complimenting the other drivers for not only being aware of what is around them, but consistently high driving standards.
If a driver is going to keep swapping tyres, then first of all, it can make a mockery of the handicaps, but it also means that whereas you normally know where and when it is safe or overtake (or get overtaken in my case!), all of a sudden, you are taken by surprise.
Bearing in mind most of our drivers are just amateurs, I am not sure that this extra dimension of uncertainty is a good thing. I would never go along with any form of control tyre as it is not feasible in our series, so we'll always have a variety of tyres.
Will the harder charger type pull off and pit when one of Pukekohe's cloudbursts hits, or will he run the risk of falling off and maybe taking another driver with him?
Maybe this tyre issue deserves a new thread of its own as it needs debating?
Parnelli
04-01-2014, 10:24 PM
Thanks Mike and Roger for your clarifications.
Jac Mac
04-01-2014, 11:48 PM
The addition of a cage to any saloon has an effect on the chassis stiffness, most competitive cage builders will probably try to take advantage of this.
Wider race type slicks or DOT Hoosiers etc will by virtue of extra grip will distort the compliant factory rubber bushs in the suspension to the point where you have to make changes to get the tire in full contact with the track ( the dropped inner fulcrum point of the top wishbone on Dale & John Mck's cars along with probably many others, is a step in that process ).
Bryan
04-02-2014, 12:21 AM
The addition of a cage to any saloon has an effect on the chassis stiffness, most competitive cage builders will probably try to take advantage of this.
Wider race type slicks or DOT Hoosiers etc will by virtue of extra grip will distort the compliant factory rubber bushs in the suspension to the point where you have to make changes to get the tire in full contact with the track ( the dropped inner fulcrum point of the top wishbone on Dale & John Mck's cars along with probably many others, is a step in that process ).
That's the bit that scares me about building up an "historic" 1972 saloon, even for ERC, when the factory designed the suspension for skinny standard crossplies (or 165x13 radials on the "performance" model).:o
Do all the suspension mods necessary to stop it tripping over on "sticky" tyres take it outside the spirit of the rules, or just plain bust the budget?
John McKechnie
04-02-2014, 12:35 AM
That's the bit that scares me about building up an "historic" 1972 saloon, even for ERC, when the factory designed the suspension for skinny standard crossplies (or 165x13 radials on the "performance" model).:o
Do all the suspension mods necessary to stop it tripping over on "sticky" tyres take it outside the spirit of the rules, or just plain bust the budget?
Always talk to people who have already been down this track- too expensive being a trailblazer
Bryan
04-02-2014, 01:23 AM
Too right, John:).
Fortunately I'm "blessed" with the a similar obsession for quaint and unusual cars as some other forum members, so I already know far more than is probably healthy about my particular choice:eek:. Suffice to say, the tweaks to get it to handle adequately on road tyres are relatively easy (and cheap), but to make it work with DOT tyres is a different ball game. Just as well I'll be happy to be a "clubbie", having fun plodding around at the back of the field.:p
RogerH
04-02-2014, 01:40 AM
That may be the case for a post December 1977 car but the T&C rules are different for pre 31 December 1977 cars.
For these pre cars, brakes are "free" subject to disc and drum friction surfaces being ferrous. "Free" means that the original part may be replaced with a newer part as long as the new part provides no additional function relative to the original part and must be from the same era and was available or used on that make and model in period. "Era" means the period when a particular vehicle model and its components were actively used in motor sport competition.
This could be interpreted to mean that an original 4 pot calliper could be changed to a Wilwood 4 pot of similar dimensions if it could be proved that the Wilwood (or the form of calliper on which the Wilwood was based?) was available to be used in the period (era) related to the subject car.
Further to my post, there is an interesting possible interpretation of what "era" means. This is a relatively important definition as it defines during what time period you can select parts that were available (not necessarily fitted to a subject car or model). You could then fit these parts and on the face of it, have a compliant T&C car.
Under the T&C definition "Era" means the period when a particular vehicle model and its components were actively used in motor sport competition. I understand in an initial draft of the rules, era was limited to the model production life of a specific car - for example the"era"of a Mk1 Escort would have been January 1968 to November 1974.
Under the present definition (using the Mk1 Escort example), we would need to determine when the Mk1 Escort was actively used in motor sport competition. What does this actually mean? It seems to be a very subjective assessment as some could no doubt argue that the Mk1 Escort has been continuously actively used in motor sport competition and therefore any component available up to 2014 could be fitted to a compliant T&C car?
Bryan
04-02-2014, 02:21 AM
Further to my post, there is an interesting possible interpretation of what "era" means. This is a relatively important definition as it defines during what time period you can select parts that were available (not necessarily fitted to a subject car or model). You could then fit these parts and on the face of it, have a compliant T&C car.
Under the T&C definition "Era" means the period when a particular vehicle model and its components were actively used in motor sport competition. I understand in an initial draft of the rules, era was limited to the model production life of a specific car - for example the"era"of a Mk1 Escort would have been January 1968 to November 1974.
Under the present definition (using the Mk1 Escort example), we would need to determine when the Mk1 Escort was actively used in motor sport competition. What does this actually mean? It seems to be a very subjective assessment as some could no doubt argue that the Mk1 Escort has been continuously actively used in motor sport competition and therefore any component available up to 2014 could be fitted to a compliant T&C car?
Or would you use the FIA Appendix J homologation period "homologation expiring at the end of the fifth year after production ceased", which would allow a Mini Cooper S 1963 to 1975, and 1275GT 1970 to 1985, and Mk1 Escort to 1979?
Having absorbed the above and a small mountain of personal emails that arrived in the time it took to get lunch, it appears that the onus is indeed on Series organisers to make a call. Typical. I have to make a call on a subject I know very little about...
Dons little black moustache and proceeds...
I see practical difficulties in administering the handicaps when drivers swap willy nilly, but as we do run a 100% handicap system, then whereas I normally use a mixture of historical and current best times for the weekend, maybe 4:1, or 3:2, I may have to have a play, but I think that what will happen if we allow these tyres in, is that once a driver has recorded his fastest time using these tyres it will show up in the system just as a fast time, but if it then rains and his performance is vastly reduced in percentage terms, compared to those using the same tyres throughout, then the handicap is going to work against them. To which I would reply - hard luck!
In other words, a bog standard MGB on good, fresh Toyos may only be 3% slower in wet weather at Pukekohe (Old track) but a stonking V8 switching from the good tyres may then be down 10%.
The handicap system sorts it all out eventually other than we will enforce the 1:13 speed bar at HD and a similar time at Pukekohe. That means that say Derek Atkinson and Tony who were NOT running the tyre we are talking about would gain no advantage, but would have to button off anyway. Equally, Neil may have to button off because of the tyres.
We will trial it for a season as Neil suggested and if there is a wet race and there are incidents, or throughout the season, if there are suspension failures attributable to using these tyres, then we'll reserve the right to ban them as from the next meeting. Unless I get a differing view, I'll incorporate that into our rules so that everyone knows where they stand.
The points above regarding T & C, the era and an exact period, are fine but for us and given the stance of two thirds of the drivers not having a CoD or interested in having one, I see no specific problems.
If the HMC/U3L is opened up to CoD only cars of any capacity, (scrap the U3L limit) this gives an arena for those who object to our stance somewhere to play with like minded drivers. In other words, banning the Hankook from that grid. If one or two drivers switch to that grid and leave the ERC grid, that is fine, it is a matter of choice based on not just performance, perceived equality etc but also on driving standards.
That a seems a reasonable compromise to me so now I'll remove the moustache.
Howard Wood
04-02-2014, 03:19 AM
If the HMC/U3L is opened up to CoD only cars of any capacity, (scrap the U3L limit) this gives an arena for those who object to our stance somewhere to play with like minded drivers. In other words, banning the Hankook from that grid. If one or two drivers switch to that grid and leave the ERC grid, that is fine, it is a matter of choice based on not just performance, perceived equality etc but also on driving standards.
So why ban the Hankooks from U3L? If U3L cars are able to run with the Hankooks at say NZFMR alongside HMC (with their own specific tyre regulations which seems to have settled on the Hoosiers) the relative speed gap will close and U3L entrants will enjoy a tyre cost reduction as well. Win win it seems to me.
I for one am keen to try the Hankooks, what do you think Tony, Chris and Jim B, bearing in mind that currently the Hankook as a DoT rate tyre probably fits the regulations? There is currently well over 2 seconds a lap between the fastest HMC and U3L cars so no issue of the HMC cars being beaten but the whole field will close up.
Good point Howard. Is it then up to Arthur to make a call on behalf of the U3L group? I for one would think that as there are no series/points as such for U3L anyway, then most are just running to enjoy themselves, but, if drivers object to them in ERC, then maybe they need a sand pit to play in that is 'pure'?
Personally, I'd love to see cars such as yours mixing it with the HMC cars to overcome the massive capacity advantage that the HMC cars have. Long term, if/when HMC becomes viable in NZ without padding the grid, then it might be time to have another look anyway.
nzeder
04-02-2014, 04:00 AM
I think a lot like to see the David vs Goliath on the track which makes the U3L and HMC combined grid so entertaining and with a handicap even more so.
RacerT
04-02-2014, 04:14 AM
So why ban the Hankooks from U3L? If U3L cars are able to run with the Hankooks at say NZFMR alongside HMC (with their own specific tyre regulations which seems to have settled on the Hoosiers) the relative speed gap will close and U3L entrants will enjoy a tyre cost reduction as well. Win win it seems to me.
I for one am keen to try the Hankooks, what do you think Tony, Chris and Jim B, bearing in mind that currently the Hankook as a DoT rate tyre probably fits the regulations? There is currently well over 2 seconds a lap between the fastest HMC and U3L cars so no issue of the HMC cars being beaten but the whole field will close up.
Hi Howard
I'm one of the people emailing Ray off line to ruin his lunch!
Personally I don't think these tyres are in the 'spirit' of the regulations. They may be DOT approved, but a testing station would not give them a warrant of fitness, as they are clearly only for dry usage.
Ray's proposition of running the Hankooks, as it will slow V8 cars down when it rains doesn't wash, (if you'll excuse the pun), because competitors will simply have a set of 'wet' tyres/wheels that they can swap on to if it rains. I don't think moving people like Derek (Morgan) and Tony (Corvette) into 1.10's at Hampton Downs is going to do anyone any good. Then the question comes, what will be allowed at the Festival?
The new, tailor made, Historic Sanctioned Series regulations would be a fine place for each series to specify the tyre that they want to use. MSNZ and the Commission have come up with a very user friendly sanctioning strategy and there are already three series looking to sign up.
From what I gather, some testing stations will pass them and some will not, in which case, we have a much bigger problem!
If just one driver turns up with a current WoF using those tyres, (not that we'd know of course, what tyres were fitted at the time) then are they road legal or not?
I'm like some others on here, I really want a black and white definition. We can rule on exceptions if we so wish, but we do need a proper assessment o these tyres. If they are indeed illegal, then they are not a road tyre and therefore can't be used in the ERC Series. I believe that some cars have been issued a WoF, so the real problem isn't so much ours, but belongs elsewhere. So are we going to get a specific NZTA (or whatever they call themselves these days) ruling?
My big worry is when it rains part way though a race that started dry. If they behave like slicks in the wet, then surely they should never get a WoF? If the race starts wet, then they'll have to go a road legal tyre anyway.
As I also pointed out above, we will not allow the faster cars to do 1:10s. We will invoke the speed bar at 1:13 anyway, however, we all know that drivers will always be able to rush past and then back off! It has always been so with a speed bar.
Apart from the recent commission discussion about sanctioned historic series, I have nothing yet in writing setting out either the application procedure or the structure or what it really means to either drivers or convenors. Up until now, we have had a set of rules anyway and apart from safety implications at a meeting plus the usual driving standards, the MSNZ race stewards do not interfere in any way shape or form, into any race series that is not currently sanctioned.
Howard Wood
04-02-2014, 05:06 AM
Thanks Tony. We seem to have hi-jacked Ray's thread but these things need to be discussed and rulings made. I am unaware of the Historic Sanctioned Series regulations you refer to but keep us posted especially as regards what you propose to allow at the Festival. At least you know my preferred option.
As an aside, most serious competitors will have a set of "wets" anyway, regardless of tyre choice/ regulations, in my case I try to keep a set of scrubbed Dunlops in the truck and manage/ rotate/ eek life out of the "drys" available. I don't think we have had a wet race this year so several times the "wets" have become the "drys".
Luxury Howard! I'd like to do the same, but I only own 4 wheels for the car and it takes me about an hour to change all 4 using the equipment I have. So trying to sort out the two handicap grids, I really don't have the luxury of a 'Harry' or the time to do the work.
Tyres have to last me about 4 seasons anyway, by which time even the Toyos are two a seconds a lap slower in the dry and not too good in the wet. If I have a puncture, I am out. Full stop. If as happened last time when the tyres were worn out, there is a three month wait for a new batch of Toyos, then I either have to purchase secondhand (Mal Clark usually has a couple) or do without.
Dunlop Direzzas as on the Magnette, I gather are no longer made.
Howard Wood
04-02-2014, 05:39 AM
Luxury Ray! We were so poor, we had to live in shoe box.......etc, etc (copywrite Monty Python).
RacerT
04-02-2014, 05:56 AM
Luxury Howard! I'd like to do the same, but I only own 4 wheels for the car and it takes me about an hour to change all 4 using the equipment I have. So trying to sort out the two handicap grids, I really don't have the luxury of a 'Harry' or the time to do the work.
Tyres have to last me about 4 seasons anyway, by which time even the Toyos are two a seconds a lap slower in the dry and not too good in the wet. If I have a puncture, I am out. Full stop. If as happened last time when the tyres were worn out, there is a three month wait for a new batch of Toyos, then I either have to purchase secondhand (Mal Clark usually has a couple) or do without.
Dunlop Direzzias as on the Magnette, I gather are no longer made.
Hi Ray
You will run a fancy foreign car and then complain that you can't get bits, wheels, tyres etc - you're not English are you?
The answer may be to specify a minimum treadware rating, as is done in the 2K Cup Series (theirs is 190, which is quite hard).
It sounds like a treadware of 80 – 100 is probably appropriate for most Classic/Historic cars and could be the simplest solution.
LOL Tony. Can I borrow Harry? We English don't have a manservant to change the wheels like the Kiwis!...
Until today, I wasn't even aware there was a treadwear rating! Is it moulded onto the tyrewall or just a specification? (Too full of curry - the English national dish - now, to go down on my hands and knees to check.)
Kiwiboss
04-02-2014, 06:58 AM
LOL Tony. Can I borrow Harry? We English don't have a manservant to change the wheels like the Kiwis!...
Until today, I wasn't even aware there was a treadwear rating! Is it moulded onto the tyrewall or just a specification? (Too full of curry - the English national dish - now, to go down on my hands and knees to check.)
I spend most of my life on my knees Ray so yes I can tell you that it is imprinted into the side of every DOT rate road legal WOF tyre I have ever seen in NZ, the Avon CR6ZZ is about the most period correct DOT radial historic race tyre there is and they are 80 tread wear, this should be the minimum wear rating requirement and would eliminate all these other no threaded slick type DOT tyres and solve the problem!!
Enjoy your English dinner :)
Dale M
CobraV8
04-02-2014, 09:09 AM
Bugger I just went and checked the tyres on the Cobra! The kumhos that central muscle cars used to run, so we're cheap as second hand and better in both the dry and wet than my road dunlops, but... Tread wear is 50.
Kiwiboss
04-02-2014, 09:26 AM
Bugger I just went and checked the tyres on the Cobra! The kumhos that central muscle cars used to run, so we're cheap as second hand and better in both the dry and wet than my road dunlops, but... Tread wear is 50.
What model of Kumhos CobraV8? the V700 Victoracer has a very light tread pattern new and after a few scuff in laps is basically a bald tyre or a slick, designed for Autocross and Solo racing in America and not a wet weather tyre, i believe these are not as good as these new Hankooks!! Hmmm. and the V700 is not made by Kumho anymore?
Dale M
CobraV8
04-02-2014, 09:37 AM
Yeh that's them. The fronts have more tread than rears, and outer third of tyre is basically close to a slick, and has wear holes like a slick does. My car used to be such a handful on road tyres, and with the amount of racing and road work I do the tread wear isn't my issue. The car was awesome on slicks, but there is hardly any class to use them in now.
CobraV8
04-02-2014, 09:39 AM
What price are the hankooks?
Howard Wood
04-02-2014, 09:40 AM
Is the treadwear rating the moulded number following the size and ending in a V? If so the Dunlop Direzza is 85 and is the same for S1, M1, M2 and H1 which seems a little at odds with the actual wear rate I have experienced.
And Ray, I have such a pile of used 205/50 x15 Direzzas that I had to climb up to see the numbers so curry remained undisturbed!
Paul Wilkinson
04-02-2014, 09:48 AM
Is the treadwear figure the moulded number following the tyre size and ending in a V? If so the Dunlop Direzza is 85 and the same for S1, M1, M2 and H1 which does not tally with my tyre life experience.
And Ray, I have such a pile of used Direzza 205/50 x 15s that I had to climb up to look so curry remained undisturbed!
That's the speed and load rating. I think V means rated to 240kph and 85 is somewhere around 500 kgs. A Google search will give you the exact figures.
Also, apparently treadwear ratings often aren't consistent between brands so it is hard to compare.
Kiwiboss
04-02-2014, 10:25 AM
What price are the hankooks?
Thats the problem CobraV8, they are cheap(as far as performance tyres go) around $1000 a set for 4 new(unless corrected) but i believe the wear rate is very high? i have never raced on them so relying on supplied information!! others may have a better idea. I believe race class's like Central Muscle are marking the tyres and regulating there usage to stop the more wealthy racers fitting a new set every race?
Come to think of it the Wear rating is for the American market and although this will capture most tyre manufactures there are probably some that won't. The words "Wear rate 80" "Temperature 120" etc should be molding into easily readable words on the side of the tyre!!
Dale M
Oh boy. So like bra sizes, it rather depends on who the manufacturer is as to what the numbers really mean?... Ironically, I know more about bra sizing than tyre wear numbering.
GeebeeNZ
04-02-2014, 11:00 AM
Don't know much about bra sizes but even the 2K cup guys are spending $1,000 on tyres to be competitive. I know I have spent it.
Graeme
Oh boy. So like bra sizes, it rather depends on who the manufacturer is as to what the numbers really mean?... Ironically, I know more about bra sizing than tyre wear numbering.
Parnelli
04-02-2014, 08:59 PM
Tire Sidewall Branding lesson 101. A hugh amount of information is available from the sidewall branding but not all information is equal. Depending upon where and which market the tires are manufactured for then there are several different brandings applied i.e. Europe ECE , America DOT , Asia CCC etc so expecting all tires to be DOT marked or not and as such , street legal or not , is a misconception. Race tires will have no such branding but the cheater style tires may have DOT or similar branding but are essentially race tires with lighter all-round construction, minimal tread grooves etc. and not realistically street legal. Similarly the UTQG labeling ( Treadwear, Traction, Temperature ) give an indication of similar performance of like branded tires , but given that all manufacturers use different combinations of products to produce their tyres and perform their own controlled testing and branding then not all similarly branded tyres will perform the same.
The point I’m trying to make is that if you ask 5 different “ tire experts “ the same question then you are likely to get 5 different answers and possibly not any of them are wrong.
Paul Wilkinson
04-02-2014, 09:39 PM
Maybe the trick with the ERC series is to go around the paddock at the next meeting having a quick look at the tyres being used and make a list of all of them. Then make that the list of acceptable tyres for the series (assuming you don't find anything unacceptable). Then anyone wanting to run anything different can apply to have another tyre added to the list - a couple of minutes on the internet should show whether it is in the spirit of the series and if it should be accepted. That way no-one turns up saying 'but it is a WOF-able tyre so I should be able to run it'. That conversation has been had well upstream of purchasing. Set a criteria e.g. min 4mm tread covering 3/4 of the tyre or whatever is desirable so there is a good basis upon which to reject or admit new tyres....
RacerT
04-02-2014, 09:41 PM
Tire Sidewall Branding lesson 101. A hugh amount of information is available from the sidewall branding but not all information is equal. Depending upon where and which market the tires are manufactured for then there are several different brandings applied i.e. Europe ECE , America DOT , Asia CCC etc so expecting all tires to be DOT marked or not and as such , street legal or not , is a misconception. Race tires will have no such branding but the cheater style tires may have DOT or similar branding but are essentially race tires with lighter all-round construction, minimal tread grooves etc. and not realistically street legal. Similarly the UTQG labeling ( Treadwear, Traction, Temperature ) give an indication of similar performance of like branded tires , but given that all manufacturers use different combinations of products to produce their tyres and perform their own controlled testing and branding then not all similarly branded tyres will perform the same.
The point I’m trying to make is that if you ask 5 different “ tire experts “ the same question then you are likely to get 5 different answers and possibly not any of them are wrong.
Thanks Parnelli.
You have pointed out the problems, but what's the solution?
Jac Mac
04-02-2014, 10:23 PM
Thanks Parnelli.
You have pointed out the problems, but what's the solution?
Supply your car/tire inspector with a durometer, worst case scenario some 'old' race tires might pass.
richiev8
04-03-2014, 12:33 AM
$1000 a set sounds like the right money.
The Kumho V700 that CMC ran at one point lasted well, ( have been told nearly a season)
Howard Wood
04-03-2014, 02:57 AM
Thanks Parnelli.
You have pointed out the problems, but what's the solution?
It seems that restricting tyres on some treadwear number may well be a real can of worms Tony. We are still waiting to hear back from Dunlop regarding a treadwear number for the Direzzas (probably one the most popular DoT/road legal race tyres in NZ) or even if such a number/ rating exists. It seems that this number is primarily a US market initiative and may not be available for tyres not used in that market and at best seems to be somewhat arbitary.
Given that there were a number of competitors using the Hankook at last year's Festival and Ray appears happy to allow them in his series maybe that ship has already sailed. I am finding the combination of purchase price, performance and a wear rate which seems at least no worse than other DoT tyres to be a fairly compulsive argument.
Interesting diversion. Thanks Parnelli - I think I now know who you are!!!
The last thing I want to do is over complicate what we have , which is currently very simple. If I look under a car and see tread, then I assume that all is reasonably OK. If what I see is just two grooves and no tread pattern , then it suggests to me that maybe it is more of a race tyre than a road tyre.
That is about as simplistic as it gets without getting bogged down with numbers, lists, acceptable and exceptions.
As I said earlier, with a speed bar in place which only affects maybe 5 people (two are 'rebuilding') then a slight performance improvement for the majority is not going to make too much of a difference. As Pointed out earlier by Dale, over the last 25 years or so, there has always been 'the tyre of the moment' which has gradually improved lap times. I think the first race I entered in NZ, the winning Lotus Cortina at Pukekohe had a fastest lap of about 1:20.
By enforcing the speed bar, those who are pushing the very limits at the front end are going to have to back off anyway, so further performance improvements in the handicaps are pointless, but as Tony and Derek prefer scratch races anyway and there is no speed bar, their lap times are still fed into the system because that is the way we do it. The tyre rules are still the same but the rules also state that if they continually break out, they may be asked to go and race elsewhere! Or, they do something to reduce their performance, either by driving more slowly, detuning the car or as in this case, using a tyre with a lesser performance.
Parnelli
04-03-2014, 04:11 AM
Hi Tony and Ray , To be honest there is no Fair and Equable way to sort it out over a range of tire brands. The only honest system is for a class to specify one type of tire brand for all competitors ( V8 Utes, Supercars, Central Muscle etc ) . This is obviously no solution for a class running numerous wheel sizes because no one supplier can offer the same tire product across a range of sizes.
What’s the solution ? You don’t want to here this but it all comes back to Handicap Races. If any competitor chooses to run the latest, stickiest tires available then it is up to the co - ordinater to handicap that person accordingly. When that person realizes that spending all this extra money does not let him unfairly win races then he will realize the futility of the exercise. It really is that simple to do !
Spgeti
04-03-2014, 05:09 AM
if you are running a 14 inch rim like and Alfa 105, the correct size rim for the car, you are really scatching to find tyres.
nzeder
04-03-2014, 06:17 AM
if you are running a 14 inch rim like and Alfa 105, the correct size rim for the car, you are really scatching to find tyres.even in period correct rubber ie Avon vintage tyres most are 13" or 15" - 14" is like rocking horse doo doo
Thanks again for the debate. Parnelli, I think you are correct as it covers not just tyres but any or all other tweaks a driver elects to use, but we adopted that philosophy 18 years ago when it was blatantly obvious that a small straight four cylinder was generally no match for a V8 or V12 monster.
When you get people jumping up and down about 100% standard cars and then blowing the wheels off much larger cars, and you find out that the internals of their car have been tweaked, illegally, it merely points to on track performance is all that really matters at the end of the day, otherwise you are going to be either totally stressed or demented or both. Live is for living, not stressing about the little things.
Agree also that with 10, 12, 13, 14" wheels the choices are limited as manufacturers go for bigger and bigger wheels on current production vehicles. Running on true period rubber isn't very easy either therefore not really feasible.
Series such as BMW E30's can run with a control tyre, weight limits, shocks/springs but it isn't so easy for the remainder but as we promote variety anyway, it is sometime easier to stand back.
We still need a definitive ruling on the Hankook. Is it road legal or not?
Spgeti
04-03-2014, 07:04 AM
I agree Ray with some flexiblity in the tyre choice but I also believe that they must meet WOF regulations. I also don't see that you have the time to check every car. Running a control tyre or designated option as Dale does in HMC is a good idea but it doesn't suit the variety of cars that race. Tony you have a hurdle in front of you with this but legality is the issue of what you can use and that will change month by month.
Sorry Ray its hijacking your thread a bit but is a good subject.
Not hi-jack at all. These issues deserve an airing somewhere and maybe they'd get more traction as a stand-alone thread but it is good to get a variety of opinions from both within and outside the series. For people such as myself who tend to work from home, unlike those in workshops with people coming and going, the message boards are an essential means of communication.
I just wish there were even more contributors as if we are not careful, we get swayed by a minority. Polling our drivers is useful but the same people respond each time, which is fine by me. They all have the opportunity to be heard.
Kiwiboss
04-03-2014, 08:16 AM
The last thing I want to do is over complicate what we have , which is currently very simple. If I look under a car and see tread, then I assume that all is reasonably OK. If what I see is just two grooves and no tread pattern , then it suggests to me that maybe it is more of a race tyre than a road tyre. That is about as simplistic as it gets without getting bogged down with numbers, lists, acceptable and exceptions.
Achtung fuhrer Ray, great debate going on here, i agree with your statement! The last thing I want to do is over complicate what we have , which is currently very simple. If I look under a car and see tread, then I assume that all is reasonably OK. If what I see is just two grooves and no tread pattern , then it suggests to me that maybe it is more of a race tyre than a road tyre.
So its a easy solution and i figured this out while been on bended knees all day today because i know how you like to stand straight and tall at these events with one arm upwards, LOL! BUT all anyone needs to do is go directly to the T&C rules and the problem is solved? Currently the tyre regs read: Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand may be used. (ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect ratio is restricted to 50% minimum
Its the "road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of the width of the tyre" that solves this problem and all you have to do is get an ERC SS officer to bend down and check the tyre every racer has because a Hankook 2 stripe slick and a Kumho V700 with a light tread pattern "does not" have 1.5mm depth tread across 75% of the tyre and thats pretty obvious to see!!
Dale M
Carlo
04-03-2014, 08:29 AM
Currently T&C rules quoting portions of the WOF requirements are quite some number of years out of date. The current version of the NZTA Vehicle Inspection Requirements Manual states the following:
14. A tyre, other than a winter tyre (Note 3), fitted to a vehicle capable of exceeding 30km/h, does not have a tread pattern depth (Technical bulletin 7) of at least 1.5mm (excluding any tie-bar or tread-depth indicator strip) around the whole circumference of the tyre:
a) within all the principal grooves that normally contain moulded tread depth indicators, or
b) if the tyre does not normally have moulded tread-depth indicators (such as some retreaded or vintage tyres), across at least three-quarters of the tread width.
Just thought that I would throw that into your discussion
Kiwiboss
04-03-2014, 08:49 AM
Currently T&C rules quoting portions of the WOF requirements are quite some number of years out of date. The current version of the NZTA Vehicle Inspection Requirements Manual states the following:
14. A tyre, other than a winter tyre (Note 3), fitted to a vehicle capable of exceeding 30km/h, does not have a tread pattern depth (Technical bulletin 7) of at least 1.5mm (excluding any tie-bar or tread-depth indicator strip) around the whole circumference of the tyre:
a) within all the principal grooves that normally contain moulded tread depth indicators, or
b) if the tyre does not normally have moulded tread-depth indicators (such as some retreaded or vintage tyres), across at least three-quarters of the tread width.
Just thought that I would throw that into your discussion
True Carlo but been outta date with what LTSA say's doesn't matter as this is a ruling for "Motorsport car racing" and is currently in the MSNZ manual so nothing needs changing just enforcement so Ray may as well use this!! also this helps alight ERC and Arrows to MSNZ and the H&C commission which Ray is eager to do so is gotta be good for old car racing! true?
Dale M
CobraV8
04-03-2014, 08:55 AM
I am still wondering why this is an issue? Let people run anything, no need to complicate things. They shouldn't be changing tyres and breaking out from the official times for handicaps.
Carlo
04-03-2014, 09:01 AM
True Carlo but been outta date with what LTSA say's doesn't matter as this is a ruling for "Motorsport car racing" and is currently in the MSNZ manual so nothing needs changing just enforcement so Ray may as well use this!! also this helps alight ERC and Arrows to MSNZ and the H&C commission which Ray is eager to do so is gotta be good for old car racing! true?
Dale M
"Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand may be used."
So either you need to remove these words or update the definition within the motorsport regulations
Kiwiboss
04-03-2014, 09:34 AM
"Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand may be used."
So either you need to remove these words or update the definition within the motorsport regulations
Not me Carlo, im just quoting whats currently written as a rule about tyres under the T&C section of the MSNZ manual!! wording seems pretty clear to me?
CobraV8, look some will do anything and its worst if they can afford it!! you could have a 1:10.00 vehicle around Hampton that has onboard lap timing system so he can just stay ahead of those behind him but not fast enough to break out!! CRAZY sure!! but someone will do it? still Rays handicapping will sort him out anyway(correct Ray) just put them back even further!! :)
Interesting
Dale M
Dale M
CobraV8
04-03-2014, 09:52 AM
I guess the guys that have loads of money will just buy the best legal tyres and run them with as little tread as they can. The only people I see this affecting are those that have racy road tyres and don't want to have to change them because of new rules when they can't afford unnecessary expense.
crunch
04-03-2014, 10:50 AM
if you are running a 14 inch rim like and Alfa 105, the correct size rim for the car, you are really scatching to find tyres.
Under T&C regs you are allowed to go 1 inch bigger...plenty of 15" choice of rubber round things around
Spgeti
04-03-2014, 09:00 PM
I was aware of that Crunch. I last ran the car 6-7 years ago and bringing it out this year after a long layoff I find that for my 14x6.5 inch GTA replicas, tyres are there but are difficult to source. Most the guys down here running 105s, 116s etc apart from 2 others have upgraded to 15 inch rims.
I am faced with that as well and have made the decision to go to 15 inch Revolutions to keep the period look correct.
My point was that the smaller size wheels the tyre choice is limited.
Correct Crunch, but many 1960's/70's cars, including mine, were on 13" rims and at 14", have already gone up to maximum allowed.
Correct Dale. Drivers who have transgressed get their handicap 'adjusted'! Not very often maybe, but although some believe that the fastest car should always win, I don't, and spreading the chocolate fish around creates a far better attitude than knowing who will win.
If someone askes 'How' they can win the series, there are two responses.
1) Why do you want to know? or,
2) Turn up at every meeting, drive sensibly and finish every race - but you may never actually win a race.
It really is as simply as that.
Dale is also correct in that some drivers are using various modern devices to moderate their speed, but the vagaries of handicap racing are that if for whatever reason you lose a couple of seconds on one lap, as in life generally, you can't get it back.
Some drivers amaze me by their ability to get through traffic so easily and safely and they manage to finish quite high in the results. They are usually the ones who have a certain amount of 'excess power' and can shoot past, but those with a lot less power have to bide their time. Part of the fine tuning of the handicap system takes that into account. Some races turn out to favour the slower cars and some favour the faster cars. Who cares?
nzeder
04-03-2014, 09:58 PM
So long as everyone is :) :) :D
Love supporting/watching and come Ice Breaker racing in the ERC group keep up the great work.
Parnelli
04-03-2014, 10:03 PM
Tire Lesson 102 - Manufacturers can only afford to produce tires in a range of diameters that they hope will sell in volume. As the performance level of road cars has improved then the diameter of wheels has increased ( larger brakes ) and the profile of tires has reduced ( 70,65,60,55,50,45,40,35 etc ) One can only assume that when the T & C rules were set up ( 1970’s ? ) they made allowance for the then gradual increase in Tire diameters 13” to 14” and 15” to 16” that the availability of suitable tires dictated. For us greybeards in 2014, to still be expecting to purchase performance street tires in 13 to 16 diameters when the manufacturers have moved on to 17” to 20 “ production is getting to be fairly futile. This situation is very bad now and only going to get a whole lot worse.
Yes, there are a few manufacturers still producing reasonable performance tires in small widths for 13 to 16 “ rims and some still making ‘cheater type’ tires but to find larger width, performance street tires in these sizes, is like finding the rocking horse doo doo.
Maybe it’s time for a re - look at tire diameters under the T & C rules . Auckland based Production Muscle Cars class don’t allow Willwood brakes, Dry sump engines, Yeriko Gearboxs etc but have made allowance for larger diameter wheels to cater for readily available street legal tires !
p.s.. Hey Ray, what’s this “tyres “ language ? Here was me thinking you spoke the Queens English !
Tyres IS the English spelling!!! Tires is the US spelling. :)
Parnelli
04-03-2014, 10:09 PM
Geez, that was quick !
One soon tires of this tyre discussion. Does that make it easier to understand the four letter words parnelli
Geez, that was quick !
Yup. And before my first large, strong, sweet coffee of the day too! No, not a tea drinker either - but you knew that...
nzeder
04-03-2014, 11:39 PM
Racing a production based car is compromise be it a new or a classic. Given we are talking Classic cars then rim size is a compromise and as pointed out so is tyre choice due to availability in today's world.
Bryan
04-04-2014, 12:09 AM
Would I be right in thinking most smaller British classic saloons (Escorts etc) would struggle to fit anything wider than a 205 tyre under the standard guards? Fortunately 205/60x13 seems to be well catered for (or is it?), and keeps the gearing standard (same diameter as 155/80 or 175/70), and would be adequate for a slow-poke like me.:p
nzeder
04-04-2014, 02:51 AM
Would I be right in thinking most smaller British classic saloons (Escorts etc) would struggle to fit anything wider than a 205 tyre under the standard guards? Fortunately 205/60x13 seems to be well catered for (or is it?), and keeps the gearing standard (same diameter as 155/80 or 175/70), and would be adequate for a slow-poke like me.:pCorrect 15" rims on a standard body Escort (aka T&C compliant) is almost impossible hence so many Forest Flares on these types of cars so they car run a 225/50/15 - however as I understand the rules with Forest Flares that means Schedule K which does not have a 50 percent aspect ratio but a 60 percent aspect ratio for DOT tyres - or period correct tyre required. Under FIA Appendix K which MSNZ Schedule K is based Escorts with Forest Flares are limited to 13" rims anyway.
This is one of the points that keeps running through my mind - T&C = 50 series tyres = I can run a 225/50/15 or even a 235/50/15 on my Datsun 260z. Or I go Schedule K, which allows me to run Group 4 type flares and wide rims - 15x12 in the rear in period but only period rubber and that is going to be big $$ for someone with a small budget for this hobby that is not going to happen - so I don't flare run stock body work and DOT tyre that needs to be 60 series for Schedule K so I am down to 205/60/15 (same diameter as the stock tyre for a 260z which is 195/70/14) or slightly larger 215/60/15 or 225/60/15 - which you can't get a track tyre in those sizes, just high performance road rubber.
However I guess that is the point of all this is it not? Road tyres or period spec tyres - no semi slick track only tyres.
There is a silver lining for us lower budget guys is that road tyres are general a lower price than the higher performance semi-slick. You get what you pay for. I will never have the budget to be at the pointy end of the field, so if that means I run a standard road tyre and be mid/rear of the pack that is fine that is where my pay grade has me playing. So long as there are others in the same boat and we can have a good bit of fun along the way + with the odd handicap there might be a chance of getting to the checkered flag first just to make the simile a little wider once in a while.
I will never have the budget to be at the pointy end of the field, so if that means I run a standard road tyre and be mid/rear of the pack that is fine that is where my pay grade has me playing. So long as there are others in the same boat and we can have a good bit of fun along the way + with the odd handicap there might be a chance of getting to the checkered flag first just to make the simile a little wider once in a while.
Er, winning a handicap once in a while? H'mm. Generally once every few seasons maybe. Wide smiles frequently though, oh yes!
Will be sending the dinner bookings email out shortly, now that I have just confirmed the price with the caterers. Numbers starting to roll in for the April 20th (Easter Sunday) practice day too via HD ticketing (not motorsport entry) website. Within the first few, were two Z's... Just a reminder that the practice day is not limited to ERC drivers.
nzeder
04-04-2014, 05:11 AM
Lol maybe should clarify my term once and a while. I am in my early 40's so I guess I have 20+ years in the sport (I hope, wish, dream) so once in a while is as you say while = few years. Looking forward to the dinner.
Might have to see if I can share a drive :)
Make that 30 years. We still have one or two over 70's racing. Plenty of time yet Mike. You can even wear your Z gear at the dinner, as the theme this year is "Marque". Anyone turning up with Subaru, Honda, Mitsubishi, Mazda gear, buys everyone else a drink.
The "Ford Mustang" wearers, may have to provide chocolate fish - but we haven't decided on that one just yet.
Make that 30 years. We still have one or two over 70's racing. Plenty of time yet Mike. You can even wear your Z gear at the dinner, as the theme this year is "Marque". Anyone turning up with Subaru, Honda, Mitsubishi, Mazda gear, buys everyone else a drink.
The "Ford Mustang" wearers, may have to provide chocolate fish - but we haven't decided on that one just yet.
Limezed
04-04-2014, 07:24 AM
Your welcome to the keys of mine Mike on the 20th. I believe it's just like riding a bike, you never forget how.
Then it's back to the shed with you as Ice Breaker will be creeping up before we know it.
Cheers, Karl
Allan
04-05-2014, 04:00 AM
I have been watching this thread with interest and find that if follows other situations that occur within the sport that we love. It would appear that those with the funds to do as they please are happy to spend the money on the best tyres they can find to suit their needs and those who race on a small budget want to be able to compete on a level playing field with all the field running on similar, but not necessarily the same, rubber. Unfortunately you are never going to please everyone. Those who run expensive machinery naturally want to run on good quality tyres in order to protect their investment, and I can understand that. So where to from here? In my opinion organizers of the series have got to look at doing the most good for the most people. Now this poses a problem which has been previously mentioned in that in certain tyre types the range of sizes is not great. So that leaves us in never never land because there is no realistically logical answer to all this. In series like ERC running a control tyre would be totally impossible.
You do a great job Ray and I certainly don't envy you trying to come up with a solution on this.
Allan
Allan
04-05-2014, 04:01 AM
I have been watching this thread with interest and find that if follows other situations that occur within the sport that we love. It would appear that those with the funds to do as they please are happy to spend the money on the best tyres they can find to suit their needs and those who race on a small budget want to be able to compete on a level playing field with all the field running on similar, but not necessarily the same, rubber. Unfortunately you are never going to please everyone. Those who run expensive machinery naturally want to run on good quality tyres in order to protect their investment, and I can understand that. So where to from here? In my opinion organizers of the series have got to look at doing the most good for the most people. Now this poses a problem which has been previously mentioned in that in certain tyre types the range of sizes is not great. So that leaves us in never never land because there is no realistically logical answer to all this. In series like ERC running a control tyre would be totally impossible.
You do a great job Ray and I certainly don't envy you trying to come up with a solution on this.
Allan
Thanks Allan. By running one scratch race at each meeting where the lap times are taken into account, but no points, no speed bar, it gives those who want to push a bit, the opportunity to race fairly hard without being slowed down by the traffic.
They then have to accept that those times set in the scratch race are still going to be used for the handicaps anyway, so if they decide to use a different tyre in the scratch race, they run the risk of being over handicapped. Their choice, their risk. Remember we also use historical lap times too, so that faster time rolls over to future meetings.
I still stand by the credo that it is not only all about participation, but AES is an entry level race series for those graduating from Classic Trials and we owe it to them to not be frightened off by having to spend megabucks to keep up. As long as their lap times are acceptable (ie. not too slow - in which case they should revert to trials) we want them to stay.
Just sorting out the points for the end of season and collating a bit of info.
Having previously announced that we'd probably only run one grid next season, now I am not so sure!
Not only did we get 54 turn up to race for the last round - just over 50% - but the AES group averaged just under 24 across all meetings, including the January Taupo and the Arrows group averaged just over 18. So with an overall average of 42, the quandary now is this:
An average of 41 is still less than a full grid, but with a huge speed differential, but compared to most other groups, pretty healthy as separate grids.
Do we run the risk of chaotic speed differences and a load of pit lane starts, or stick to two grids maybe with the exception of the Taupo round, which is just one week before the Festival.
The figures above represent those who turn up, but as we all know, there is always a fair degree of attrition, which can severely knock the numbers fir the last races of the weekend.
IF we elected to combine the grids for the last race, we still have the speed differential but at least the grid sizes are healthier.
Does anyone have any sort of feeling about this?
Allan
04-09-2014, 08:36 AM
My thoughts on this are two grids. It appears that these races are more about participation than spectator appeal (although the vast range of makes and models probably negates this) so I would consider the competitors first.
Oldfart
04-09-2014, 09:07 AM
Spectators don't seem to turn up to many events, so in my opinion they are very secondary.
Andrew Metford
04-09-2014, 11:44 AM
I agree with Allan and Oldfart. What few spectators are there, are usually because they know / crew / support someone who is racing ( not necessarily ERC ) anyway, so do what is right for the Series, and for it's entrants.
briteyes
04-09-2014, 07:18 PM
It is hard to turn up to an event if you do not know it is on.
the recent Legends of speed up north. I didnt know it was on.
Yes I am in wellington but travel when ever I am able to to watch good motorsport.
There are plenty of people that would go if they only knew.
We in NZ do a piss poor job of advertising or motorsport to the general public, whats the point in only the people in the know or involved being the only ones there. We need punters through the gates and bums on seats. Broarder advertising may be a good place to start.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.