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This beautiful Lola 300 #4 was entered by "Reg Papps & Sons" and driven by Bob Muir.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel watts
"Reg Papps & Sons" appear to be a bit of a mystery. I have never seen anything at all written on them, which is strange.
I believe one of the sons may have briefly driven a Lotus 22/31, without distinction. Then they appeared out of nowhere with this Lola 300, ran it for a very short time and then just as quickly disappeared, never to be heard of again.
I think they may have come from Central Coast of NSW, but can't recall where I got that. Perhaps Aussie readers may be able to help.
I recall seeing the car in the pits at Warwick Farm and it was absolutely beautifully prepared and presented. Probably the best presented open wheeler I have ever seen. It just stood apart from the other F5000's, even the internationals.
I would love to know who they were, and their story.
Found this very brief excerpt from another site
The AUST/31 etc. was done by Reg. Papps and sons when they did the '' update'' to Lotus 31 sort of specs.
The rear uprights had been modified by Papps's by welding a new magnesium top section to the existing Lotus 20 uprights
which during the course of restoration we painstakingly removed and linished back down to correct spec.
When purchased by myself the car was on 8.0'' front and 10.0'' rears , the fronts were Lotus , the rears MRC from Lionel Ayers
and were swapped in a standard chinese deal with Stephen Fryer as spares for his MRC 23B for a pair of 45 Webers.
Also found this, not sure if it is the Reg Papps you are after.
http://www.gourmantic.com/2016/04/04...rk-distillery/
Thanks go kiwi, any little bit appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by gokiwi
Reg Papps was a 'drinking mate' of several, including Bob Muir...
He is not the man with the distillery. Reg would be in his mid-seventies now, he was one of those people who, like Bobby, was a part of the Parramatta Road car dealer world in some way or another.
He didn't race very much, but was well-known for his meticulous preparation. The Lola, however, I seem to recall as being originally trimmed like that by Niel Allen's crew. I could be wrong, of course, Niel was never seen at a race meeting in the car.
Unfortunately this does not increase my knowledge much as these are just a few generalisations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Bell
Re the Allen crew doing the original trim of the car, I very much doubt this as the car was green when Allen had it, and it was involved in big crash at Surfers.
What I was after was along the lines of
- Was "Reg Papps and Sons" a business, where/what etc.
- They came from nowhere to Australia's top formula with a beautiful car, and then just as quickly disappeared again.
- Are they still around?
Reg Papps, to the best of my knowledge, worked on his own...
Like I said, he was part of that Parramatta Road car dealer scene. I met the man several times in that era, usually at after-meeting sessions when the sun had gone down.
I can offer no more until I get home and ask others, but I'm sure you could make contact with someone who knows more.
So why was his business name "Reg Papps & Sons"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Bell
I don't know, but perhaps it was his father's business and he took over?
If I was at home I'd call Bobby Muir and ask him, or Peter Molloy, but I'm a fair way away from home at the moment...
Ray, your posts seem to imply that you know very very little about Reg Papps.
However I found another forum post by you, and I quote one sentence from your post:
"Please do not tell me he's bringing that dreadful Reg Papps with him".
So who is this mysterious Reg Papps?
I'll be home in July...
Remind me then to call Bobby Muir and ask him.
Why do ou need to ask Bob Muir, Ray?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Bell
You purport to know very little about Papps yet you label him "dreadful".
Er, anyway, lets keep this on subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry S
Steve, with the greatest respect I believe what I am asking is entirely in line with the subject of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Holmes
The Reg Papps & Sons entered Lola T300 F5000 as shown in post#8 is the most beautiful racecar I have ever seen.
The Papps seem a complete mystery, they appeared and went very quickly. Why does nobody know anything about them?
That is what I am trying to find out.
Why don't you contact Bob Muir direct and stop sniping at Ray, then ?
If you keep marking others' contributions the mod can get hacked off and close the thread, then we all miss out. If you really are busting for the info there are ways to get it, not just grumbling at Ray.
And consider the fact that you asked the question a week too late...
I flew out for three months away on April 20. I don't have Bob's phone number with me.
I never, to my knowledge, saw another Papps other than the one I've mentioned. The '& son' could relate to his father, it could relate to his son if he has one. But neither or both were never present to my knowledge with the cars at the circuit.
I remember looking at that car at Warwick Farm and thinking the same as most, gee, it is immaculate. I also had never heard of Reg Papps and Sons and have never heard of them since. Maybe it was their one only involvement with racing cars. ???
Dale.
There was a photo of that car in the annual review of Australian Motor Racing for about 1973 and I recall thinking that even those colours could make a Lola T300 look good. The 'immaculateness' of the car oozed off the page.
Dale, as already discussed, Reg owned and raced a Lotus 20 which he updated to much later specs.
Hi Dale, and all Reg Papps fans(?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Harvey
Not quite their "only involvement" - at the following link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Hardie-Ferodo_500, it shows they entered a VH Charger in the 1971 Bathurst 500, which Bob Beasley qualified in 10th.
It finished in 10th overall (only one lap down), so must have run consistently all day. No co-driver listed- looks like Bob played a lone hand that day.
I checked the '70 and '72 events, and it didn't show them as entrants/runners in either.
If Bob B is still "going around", might be a good contact to follow up on the "mysterious" Papps clan.
When I started enquiring about Reg Papps & Sons in post 362, I didn't realise they were so Unknown. I thought it was just me in that situation.
Ray Bell has in a forum post labelled Papps as "dreadful" but claims to know very little of him. He wants me to contact Bob Muir on this.
That is completely and utterly irrelevant and a distraction. Why should I ask Muir why Ray has labelled Papps "dreadful". Why can't he tell me himself? That's all I am trying to do, but it has taken a lot of unnecessary posts......
Terry,
Perhaps Ray was just being tongue-in-cheek when he described Reg as "dreadful".
After all, he was in pretty good company in regards to "drinking mates" referenced by Mr Bell; may have just been a bloke who wanted to keep a shout going!
Indeed...
Very much tongue in cheek. And I thought Terry's question was about who he is and who the '& sons' refers to, not the 'dreadful' bit.
John Cummins, he would have heard 'dreadful' used in relation to a lot of people in the same manner.
I was actually referring to calling up Bob Muir to learn more about Reg Papps and any appropriate 'sons'.
This thread is starting to sound like Monty Python's regular mentions of the mysterious Sydney Lotterby.
Werner Buhrer
There are many opinions on what was / is the best F5000. One way to look at it is their current relative values.
The authorative US magazine “Vintage Racecar” each month includes a table of the values for cars in different Historic Racing classes. In September last year it was the turn of F5000.
There are three levels of values based on degree of originality, Overall condition & restoration, competition history etc. They also note that their values are based on US values. “The values of historic racecars can vary by as much as 25%-35% in other countries, depending on local market appeal, currency rates and import duties”.
So the value of an Elfin will be higher in Oz than in the US for example.
The following are for top class cars and are in USD:
Chevron B24/25. . . . . . . . . 135,000
Chevron B37. . . . . . . . . . . .140,000
Elfin. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .125,000
Leda LT22 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 120,000
Lola T140. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90,000
Lola T190. . . . . . . . . . . . . .100,000
Lola T300. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
Lola T330/332. . . . . . . . . . .180,000
Lola T400 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .165,000
Lotus 70 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
March 73A. . . . . . . . . . . . . .115,000
March 74/75/76. . . . . . . . . .140,000
McLaren M10. . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
McLaren M18. . . . . . . . . . . . 140,000
McLaren M22. . . . . . . . . . . . 150,000
McRae GM1 . .. . . . . . . . . . . 135,000
Surtees TS 5/8. . . . . . . . . . .115,000
Surtees TS 11. . . . . . . . . . . 125,000
Trojan T 101. . . . . . . . . . . . 115,000
Presented for interest and discussion.
Wow, thats really quite fascinating Terry. Thanks for posting. Interesting that the Lola T330/332 is the most valuable. I can understand why this might be, its a superb looking race car which was hugely successful in period. But I wonder also if part of the reason for its value is because in modern day historic racing its still a very fast car and hard to beat. Certainly, it'd have to be one of the more common, if not the most common of all F5000 models made? So rarity doesn't appear to play as much of a role as I'd expect.
steve,
the lola's cost more due to medical expenses to cover the famous lola limp
928
Having worked at Trojan during 1973 it surprises me that not only alphabetically but also in value that the Trojan T 101 is near the bottom of the list.
Only five were raced that year and between the Rothman European F5000 Championship and the North American L&M Continental F5000 Championship there were a total of 24 races.
The Trojan T 101 had 8 wins and three 2nd placing's in those races, so it was not a bad car.
Drivers such as Jody Scheckter and Bob Evans found it a car that could be thrown around with ease. Plus it had two of the best designers at the time of Ron Tauranac and Patrick Head.
I think it is a "sleeper" on that F5000 list.
(Ken Hyndman )
ken- with your post, another $25,000 may now be added
Lola name has magic....just look at the song the Kinks bought out........................
John,
A "Trojan" that is driven properly can also be exciting !
( As long as there are no problems with the breaks / brakes !)
KJH
Here is a nice Lola T332 for sale at USD 179,000, which is in line with Vintage Racecars valuation as above
https://vintageracecar.com/classifie.../formula-cars/
Just a reminder Ray, if you are back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Bell
Yes, I'm back...
So I've phoned Bob Muir and this is the story of how Reg Papps came to prepare the car.
"I was going in to Royal North Shore Hospital to visit John Moxon and I saw Niel being wheeled in. We had a quick chat and he got wheeled away, then I thought, 'What's he doing with the Lola?'"
So he got in touch with Tom Floyd and did a deal to buy the wreck etc. The body had been destroyed so he ordered a new body with the blue colour impregnated in it. The bits were all there at his workshop and, while Peter Molloy was to build the engines, he had nobody to work on it.
"Reg used to do a bit of work for me, buy some cars and so on, and he suggested he could take the car to his father's service station at Mascot and prepare it." The service station operated as Reg Papps & Sons, Reg being named after his father and his brother was also there working on cars.
As Reg had previously prepared a couple of Bathurst cars and had updated the Lotus 20, Bob agreed and Reg took on the work. It was Reg's idea to put the yellow onto the car and turn it out as nicely as it was ultimately finished.
Is that enough?
Thanks very much Ray. That closes the loop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Bell
As I said earlier I was intrigued for years as to where they fitted in.