No problem, just let me know which one & I'll send them a HiRes version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldfart
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No problem, just let me know which one & I'll send them a HiRes version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldfart
Hi, great ideas. Love the basic concept, I am sure it could be made into something workable. Rules have to be enforced strictly. Just a thought why not make the adge of the driver plus the car is more than 100. A 1950 car would have a driver who must be over 39, a 1940
car the driver would be 29 or over. Who knows we could use our Austin A105 to tow our serious race car to the track, race them both and then hitch hike home. Done that before. If you used your tow car as a race car it would have to be worth an extra place or two up the grid.
Boy, you guys, this has the potential to be really interesting! A 39 Ford coupe would fit right in.
OK Steve, your entry number is???
Remember the 4.00 by 16 crossply tyres?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf
Age + car is too young! 62 for me + 55 car = 117?
Or is a 1955 car 57 + my 62?
Ha beat you. My car is 48 years old plus my age of 70 =118. And I'm not competitive! Don't think that sport/ racing cars would be accepted though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldfart
If we are talking about the car which has your site name, it's barely pre 61?? I took photos of the car at the initial Baypark meeting emerging from the cement dust clouds. I think the "guidelines" address the type of cars! And I am pretty sure I spent a bit of time crawling over your car at the 2010 Roycroft meeting. Then I may be reading too much into names!Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf
I've been discussing this idea with a number of people since Oldfart rang me and told of his idea. Almost everyone has had the same response of "what a great idea, but now you've ruined the next few days while I think of cars". I reckon this will be a great step in increasing field numbers, and now HAVE to find a car. Please don't put the 100 year car+driver in, I don't think a pre 45 car would be too race ready without WAAAAAAAAAAAAYY too much work.
Might have a winner here I mentioned the idea to a couple of " older " people today ,they think its a great concept and next question they asked me is what do I use
I think the average 29 year old would throw all the toys out of the cot if you suggested that he drive/race a 71 year old car, he wouldnt be able to find the 'press enter to start' button...... No dont need them, keep it at 50 or over for the driver, when they see how much fun your having they might start to grow up quicker!!
Now I just happen to know who Peril is, and he is not too far away from the 29 years you mention. He is more often known for those funny engines they claim are 1200cc and make a "crap, crap, crap" noise! Now if he is enthusiastic, there is hope for the next generation! Then again my 21 year old son wanted to get a car too, but he might have to wait a wee while before he comes hom from a rather interesting job in thee UK designing Triumphs. Not all the young guys are only capable of driving PS3!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jac Mac
Oldfart, have you come up with a name for your class yet?
Surely...."Old Farts Racing' !!!!!!Not something boring like.... 'pre 61'. Have been raking my brains trying to think of a suitable machine and I keep coming back to BMC. As peril787b says, some of these potential 'race cars' are going to need massive amounts of work to get them competitive,or even safe, and at what cost. All those old 50's cars are very heavy, so I want to know how much lightening are we going to be able to do. Probably the most sensible would be an A40 Farina, but apparently we cant bore out to 1275cc, although I cant see why not, as the technology was there in the late 50's. Better still would be an A95 or A105 as these motors can be made to give serious HP, also have the option of over-drive, and a lot of other advantages compared to say Bobs choice of Borgward.....not the least a better spares availability. Other than that we are going to have to resort to super-charging with all it's attendant problems. I like Beowulfs idea of towing your 'real' race car to the circuit with the pre61, and racing both....marvellous. Tough luck if they both come to grief. Clearly this whole idea has got a lot of people thinking ,so I'm sure something will come of it....we just need some secure guidelines, no, more than guidelines, RULES.
I do want you all to remember that these will be primarily used at VINTAGE CLUB EVENTS, at least that is where the initial focus will be.
I guess there is a huge potential for the "mainstream" events to take them on board too.
In the UK they are known as "Oldies but Goldies" and run with the masters series.
Amco, in regard the Farina, it needs to be a Mark 1 with the shorter wheelbase as the Mk 2 was post 60. Lightening is within the same basic rule, what could and would have been done in the period. Personally I would be very disappointed to see bolted on perspex and portholes. If the windows appeared to be in the original tracks and the drivers' window opened as originally manufactured then that is OK.
Also remember in VCC there are NO PRIZES so running away in the front will have no benefit. If "all those old 50's cars are heavy" what is the problem? Every car has the same disadvantage? You don't HAVE to spend lots of money, sometimes that is just the personal ego making a person do it. If you are at the tail end battling with 4 others you probably have just as much fun (probably a lot more) than someone who is at the front running away with no-one else to play with?
I agree with the need for rules, I put the "guidelines" out for discussion, so where are the suggestions? Easy to pick holes, harder to offer thoughts??
This Borgward thing worries me Bob. If they are as good as you say, and I dont doubt your word, cos you know what you are talking about, why did they just fizzle out so quickly in NZ. Funnily enough I have just managed to sell the MG TF1500 that I mentioned in another thread. It was left-hand drive and I had given up trying to sell it in NZ. I had been corresponding with a German guy about it, and this last weekend he came here on business, and after inspecting the car bought it on the spot. The interesting thing was that he owned....a Borgward Isabella Coupe, so remembering Bobs penchant for these things asked him a few leading questions as to the suitability or not of racing a Borgward. I think he was rather taken aback that someone would want to do such an appalling thing to such a fine classic car, so I'm no further ahead. He says there is a reasonable spares supply in Germany and some repro stuff and theoretically would be possible to get spares here, even though car production stopped in the early 60's, I think. Is a bit like Paul Radisich racing that dreadful Russian thing at Goodwood...a Zil was it......looked a bit like a 50's Studebaker. It went OK with Paul behind the wheel ,as you would expect, but the A105 still beat it into a cocked hat. Cant see any point in competing with something that hasn't got a chance of winning, even with a sympathetic handicapper. And dont tell me that race car drivers dont want to win....even us old fogeys enjoy a win or two, or we would stay at home and do our knitting.!!!!!!
Point taken, Oldfart, but this was your 'baby' so I think is up to you to draft some rules, and I'm sure there will lively discussion. Dont know whether you should model this class on something already happening in the UK but would probably be a start. This will be motor-RACING, not Classic Trialing so everyone will be thinking performance.....wont they? When I raced the MG 1100 in Classic racing in 1987, I got sick and tired of coming last in every race with just about everyone lapping me, and in the end just gave it away. Yes I had some 'dicing' with back-markers but I would sooner have been nearer the pointy end of the field.
Old Fart, cripes he could be anyone with a moniker like that!!, better not be Dave Slater..that would ruin my day...
Rules, I hate that term, guidelines, why dont you start with a post on what you would like, then we can quote your post & add our individual thoughts within that post, preferably by using a different colour on the text we type in on each topic.
Theres some!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldfart
Actually, there are no 'prizes' in ANY NZ motorsport that I can think of, certainly not monetary ones. Have been 'connected' to NZ V8's for some years now and the boys sometimes get a bottle of 'Chardon' for their efforts, or a chocolate fish!! And Jac Mac, good idea....once a few things are down on paper then the discussions will start. We seem to be just tossing it around at the moment to gauge the interest, and there seems to be no lack of that, and we can move forward from the 'guidelines' page. Too much WRC to concentrate on anything else!! And Jac Mac....dont think it is DS....he is otherwise engaged, I think. So rest easy.
Jacmac and Amco, go back to post #18. There are the initial thoughts for discussion! I am happy for you to add thoughts, however it is not solely my baby. The Waitemata branch of VCC has already had input. They will be run under VCC at their meetings (given sufficient cars) need to have VIC (vehicle Identity Card) no cost, need to have VCC race licence $35 odd for 3 years, these are set in stone. It would need discussion with Motorsport to comply with some of their rules, although there are some combined meetings where MS accept VCC cars. Personally I can't be bothered with some of Motorport requirements and particularly costs.
Totally agree about gearbox, same number of ratios as original, later box is Ok (in my opinion). A period car should reflect the period, WITH ALL ITS' COMPONENTS, any later major component of the core 5 (engine, body, chassis, transmission, suspension) makes the whole unit of the later period. There are some grounds, I believe to discuss this, electronic ignition is a case in point, I believe that if it looks like points and coil that's OK who wants a fleet of cars with burnt out points littering the circuit? An event I have competed in for the last number of years now has "classic" cars which are a body shell with late model components. They ain't classics.
Jacmac, last time I looked a "vette was not a saloon car! Neither is a Tbird is it? Fine line there, how did Ford market the aircraft carrier?
I don't even know who Dave Slater is! It sure ain't me. Amco I know, Jacmac no idea.
Lets keep this fun, that's what it's designed for.
Thats one!Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldfart
Gerald I was only suggesting the Borgward as something I wanted to do one time ,but you have got to be sensible ,its only a fun thing and you don't want to go off on some spending spree for nothing other than your ego ,I think there are those amongst us that would perhaps want to do build up something different to satisy dreams or thoughts that never happened ,I think you have got to keep in mind you don't need to have something that you have to mortgage your house to own The Farina is sensible ,you will need to check on how big the engine would end up as from memory the 1098cc version didn't appear until late 1961 ,which might mean that with in the limit of the 1960 time frame around 1040 cc is as bid as you can go ,I guess one thing that is going to have to be stipulated is keeping it all period ,perhaps like retaining the original stroke for the modelQuote:
Originally Posted by AMCO72
Now that is positive, thanks. When I was thinking coupes, my mind was thing like Renault Florides rather than Dauphine, or Alpines. Yes the Mercury, Chev etc is some what different.
Agree on your wheel thoughts, but I guess we don't want white spoke 8" wheels on a 100E! That will take some wording, input needed.
Steering wheels is "sort of", don't want current Momo types. Certainly agree on the steering wheels which were dodgy in the time 50+ years later they would be a disaster. Perhaps have to be within x mm of the original diameter?
OK, all this is great, and we are all pumped up with excitement imagining fields of 20/30/40 glorious old 40's/50's cars humming round Hampton Downs thrilling the crowds that will be flocking to the circuit to watch, and relive the glory days of NZ motorsport. BUT....where are all these potential race-cars going to come from? The American sedans of the 40's/50's have been snapped up by the Hot-Rod boys and are ineligible; those that haven't ,and the other makes, mostly English and French have been lovingly restored by VCC members and are driven gently on rallies and trials by careful Mom and Pop teams with their picnic baskets in the back. I cant think of any owners in our branch of the VCC who would put their machines through a tough race programme and expect to survive without major problems. Bob's idea of a Borgward is a case in point....first find your Borgward. Of course Bob may have a stash of them in his back shed, but I doubt it. We have a 'collector', read horder, here in Cambridge on a 10 acre block who does have a few rustyish examples of 50's, mostly English, saloons, but all of them require extensive bodywork to even get them safe, let alone in race condition. And of course he thinks they are all worth big money because they are so rare....well he's right about the rare, but not the big money, so they will sit in his shed slowly dissolving into the floor. Talking of floors, we will need decent mounting points for seatbelts, which were not fitted in the fifties, and with no chassis to hook into is going to be a problem with bodies not designed for seat-belt mounting. You see, when these things raced in the 50's, they were all 'current' models and used everyday on the road, so there was a good stockpile to call on. Someone has said we dont need to spend large amounts to get the cars race worthy, well I'm not so sure, and I can see dead cars littered around the track enveloped in clouds of steam and smoke, and that wont speed up the meeting after they have all been recovered. I was thinking that a Humber 80 might be a good machine to use but I couldnt tell you where I could find one. So, If anyone has a stash of cars ripe for turning into Classic racers, give me a call, because at the moment the cupboard is bare!!!!
Those thoughts have been nagging me overnight as well, I think we will find that 'competitors' would fall into three basic types,
1. Existing VCC members who already have a treasure trove of their favourite cars & have one or two examples that are never going to be concours winners, but would make worthwhile candidates for this type of race series & the drive to & from race meets plus having a spare road car makes it all feasible.
2. The guys/gals who have old cars with a view to selling in future as per your 10 acre example that might get their A into G with this and decide to compete or liquidate the assets..
3. Those older racers who are looking for a more fun & less expensive class to race in in the twilight years, these are the danger guys as coming from what are more $$ spending & must win series they dont take kindly to the re-education process, will probably pick what they consider to be a potential winner & just build it, regardless of $$ in order to compete, I dont see how we could or even if we should try to control that...to old to learn how to age gracefully:)
I had a scout around on ebay last night... 1959 studebaker Lark- 259 V8 US$ 900-00+ ( two cars ) in Illinois.. didnt one of those win one of the early Bathurst races?, 59 /60 Chev two doors, Fords Mercs, 1960 Falcon, yes I know all US stuff... I really think for euro & UK stuff the best bets are what is here now, there were a couple of 356 Porsches on T/Me not long ago, would they be eligible?
I can 'see' one of our Snr Citizens now, pulled over by one of NZ's finest patrol cars, explaining why he is driving home at night with numbers on the doors, race tape still on the headlights & period leather straps holding the bonnet shut :):)
Just out of interest, you've got written: "Engine. To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion". Small block Chev V8s (called Corvette engines in the period) were popular transplants into pre-war American coupes. Is this considered "a common conversion"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldfart
Just some opinions here Oldfart. You know what they say about opinions, they're like arseholes, everyone has one. So you can take or leave my opinions as you please.
Both Dale (Kiwiboss) and myself used to be involved in a muscle car racing class a few years ago. We have both long since left, but what we learned from our involvement has taught us a lot of lessons about what works and what doesn't when it comes to 'enthusiast' car racing. Despite best intentions, there will always be those who try to manoeuvre the direction of the class for personal gain, to the detriment of the class.
Here are some things we learned.
1. It should always be about the cars. The cars are the stars, not the people driving them. When you think this way, you'll remember why you're doing this.
2. Championships, points, race wins don't matter in historic/enthusiast car racing. Those who think they do should probably be racing in Formula Ford or something. To the punters paying to come watch, they don't care who wins races in classes like this. They are more interested in the cars themselves. In classes like this, the car that has the biggest crowd around it in the pits between races is more valuable than the car that wins the races.
3. This class has loads of potential. Just look at the number of comments its received already. That means, it'll be popular with punters, and that means it'll be popular with event promoters. And as soon as you begin appearing at high profile historic events, you'll start attracting the ego-maniacs, who want to demonstrate their driving talents in front of a big crowd, at the expense of your class. So, long before you ever have your first race, make sure your rules are bullet proof. As Gerald has said above in an earlier post, these are really important. When you have strict rules, YOU always stay in control of your class. It sounds over the top to have strict rules in historic racing, but I promise when you're racing at high profile events and the ego-maniacs have jumped onboard, you'll be glad you took the time to write the rules properly.
Anyway, judging by your comments throughout this thread, I reckon you already know most of this stuff anyway. Dale and I have formed a new historic muscle car class and these are the principles we have built the class around. Enthusiasts having fun with old cars. Thats what its all about. But you have to protect your creation as well.
Thank you Steve.....bang on!!!!!!
This is great! Is the large orange thing a Tatra?Quote:
Originally Posted by bry3500
Some precious metal for potential candidates, and all under 10K:
1957 Austin A35:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-406617853.htm
1952 Morris Minor:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-407481352.htm
1953 Humber 10:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-381863530.htm
1951 Jowet Javelin:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-406348301.htm
1957 Borgward Isabella:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-405654339.htm
1957 Hillman California:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-409013298.htm
1955 Ford Consul MkI:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-408121825.htm
1960 Fiat 500:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-406056587.htm
1955 Ford Popular:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-408613305.htm
1959 VW Beetle:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-406867267.htm
1955 Vauxhall Velox:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-407035100.htm
1959 Morris Oxford:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-407485303.htm
1952 Austin A40:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-407889209.htm
1958 Vauxhall PA:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-406456386.htm
1957 Ford 100E:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-405999893.htm
1946 Ford V8:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-404627921.htm
1957 Ford Consul MkII:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-401261664.htm
1954 Vanguard:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-400369599.htm
1958 Triumph Standard 10:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-399277066.htm
1957 Ford Zephyr MkII:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-398145529.htm
1949 Morris Minor Lo-Lite:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-388100244.htm
1960 Jaguar MkII:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-361037249.htm
1958 Jaguar MkI:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used...-356775938.htm
No excuses now boys!
Thanks Steve. Yes the cars are out there at a reasonable price. This era gives a wide variation of makes. The PA Vaux is a proven performer on the track and the Zephyr would be good if it wasnt an auto. Shame the Jags are 2.4s. And how about a Vanguard you could tune to racing TR2 Specs. There have been some very quick A35s and A40 Farinas in the past and we musnt forget the late Harold Heasley in his Consul and Paul Fahey in his VW. Finding a pre 1960 Fiat 500 would be hard as the owner of the one advertised is a bit unsure of the age. They have raced before but may be a bit slow in this company. Roll on Hampton Downs 14th April
I'm going to risk getting shot here by Gerald but both the VW and the Fiat 500 could be made to go a lot faster than was ever intended .The Fiat 500 with a couple of o/size barrels ,a bit of head work,cam and a bigger carb ,would actually respond quite well ,Nardi used to do a 650 cc conversion for them ,perhaps Abarth might have done it as well ,don't know how long the rear drive couplings would last if you had to keep them as standard under the rules.The VW now that could be another can of worms depending on how you police the age etc of the allowed engine components ,all worth thinking about though
Thats got me thinking Bob. I have a Nardi 650cc engine in the garage. It is on a 500D crankcase 1960 to 1965 Has the VW barrels etc and a Dellorto FZD on it. All I need is 1960 or older 500D. Also have the Abarth 695SS sitting there waiting for a new floor. Has all the bits and a factory top speed of 88mph but the car is 1967 and ineligible in this class.
I can remember driving one with the VW barrels etc ,sounds similar spec to what you are talking about it went pretty well ,would make a modified 1000 mini earn its keep ,lower her down with a bit wider tyre contact ,it might surprise a few people and with a good exhaust it will sound like a big twin !
Thats it Bob I could run the 5 inch wide 10 inch Campagnolos off the Abarth and with the right exhaust sounds like a Ducatti on full song.
I think Oz Cams Historic Group Na rules seem to cover most of the points being discussed.
It may be worth a read for some ideas from the online handbook.
http://www.camsmanual.com.au/08_historic.asp
Quick looks close, I have some issues but close!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis
See, I told you.......performance, performance, performance!!!!!!!sounding like a Ducatti....would give a Mini run for its money...sounds like a big twin......could tune it to TR 2 race tune..... Yeh Right.........this is NOT going to be a lot of old fogeys driving around in their 'standard' Standards. Oldfart....you are going to have to rein-in these guys before it's too late. But thats the thing......all us fellas on here are RACERS....as Stirling Moss said...he likes to RACE. We want to push the boundaries. Clever guys like Bob aren't going to tootle around in some stupid little standard Fiat....and why would he. He might bring a smile to crowds watching, but the handicapper is going to have to give him 4 laps start ,or the sun will be setting when he finishes. The performance difference of some of these potential racers is huge.....Jag v's Fiat 500.....mmmmmm. This is why we are going to need RULES. I remember very well the meeting at Taupo in the late 80's when one competitor arrived with a very modified car. The bodywork looked standard, a few light panels, but my goodness underneath was something else. He of course blew us all into the weeds and there was nothing to say he couldn't do what he did, other than sticking to the 'spirit of the class'. Well that was about as useless as tits on a bull!!! Then wouldn't you know it, next meeting a couple more competitors had joined him, and that was it...all over. That car is still racing today, although now it is 'only' average, but back then it was what we all aspired to. This first year is going to be critical...the standard set now will set the tone for the future. Even if there are only 10 genuine cars on the track it will be worth it. Incidentally, I was hoping to get a car sitting on the grid for $10,000, but clearly that is not going to happen. And Bob, the only reason I rark you up is because I know you can take it, AND I know who you are, which is not the case with some of these other fellas.....dont know who I'm taking on, though I can usually hold my own in a war of words. Also Bob, please stick with your original choice...the Borgward....although you are a little guy, I cant see you behind the wheel of a little Fiat!!!!
$10000.00 !!!, I assume your not counting your own hours in that, just the actual parts & outwork that you 'would' have to get done by someone else either because you did not have the equipment or the 'Rules' state you couldnt. On a similar basis I guessed around $15000.00+ for the cars I had in mind.. T-Bird, Customline, Studebaker Lark( Yes the T-Bird would add about $10.000/12000.00 to that figure for the donor car- I know I know, but there would be a spin-off benefit in that for me:)... mind you if we were building & getting paid for that part by someone else I dont think there would be much change out of $40/50k.
RULES, yes as per steves post above you got to set them in concrete from day one..
What a fantastic collection of old cars. To see some of those out on track racing again would be special. I for one would be along there just to see them running in anger. I certainly wouldn't care who won the event - THE CARS ARE THE STARS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Holmes