Here's a photo of the 5.0L Chev in the "Simpson" Eagle. Lucas/MacKay injection, SuperMagII magneto. No modern electronics or rev limiters. 542hp. 8000rpm. Bob builds vintage race engines of all types with a specialty in Cosworth.
Printable View
Here's a photo of the 5.0L Chev in the "Simpson" Eagle. Lucas/MacKay injection, SuperMagII magneto. No modern electronics or rev limiters. 542hp. 8000rpm. Bob builds vintage race engines of all types with a specialty in Cosworth.
Wow, small world! Thanks for that info on Bob Slade.
You've certainly done a magnificent job with that car. You must be very proud.
Re Garner, did he have any motorsport involvement after leaving AIR in '69? I know he ran Corvettes at one stage, but I'm unsure if this was with AIR, or after he left? He ran a pair of Lola T70 MkIIIs in early '68 too.
Interesting he was connected with AMC. Penske later had an AMC contract, and among their projects, tried F5000 with an AMC motor in the back of a Lola T330. Whether due to Donohue being such a perfectionist, that car never performed to his liking, and after trying everything he could think of to make the car handle, eventually conceded that the extra weight of the AMC motor did have an affect on handling.
I am surprised to an extent that no one has mentioned Allen Brown's excellent site -- OldRacingCars.Com -- during what little discussion there has been on this thread. Lots and lots of "Eye Candy" but little substance for the most part.
Thought it interesting that a discussion of F5000 began with a few photographs of a USAC Championship car, an Eagle, rather than a pukka F5000 machine.
Liked the notion of F/A or F5000 from the beginning, but its last season or so in the US was a bit painful to watch at times. The US series was as much of a victim of the declining fortunes of the SCCA as the original Can-Am and Trans-Am were, the club's governors wanting to return to the nostalgic past when it was an amateur organization and run like a gent's club. Its attempt to revive "Can-Am" by putting bodies on the F5000 cars was an interesting one, but missed the mark by a wide margin. The IMSA Camel GT series was now the game in town and the SCCA simply could not find a means to truly compete with it. The departure of USAC from F5000 after the 1976 season was another factor, with USAC having its own problems to deal with at the moment.
Just an observation.
There are several web-sites about James Garners racing involvement. http://www.airl88.com/ details the Gulstrand Corvettes. Also, after his partnership in AIR Garner ran Scooter Patrick in Formula/A - 5000. He made a movie about their season The Racing Scene, youtub short http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtOgml5O5SM I believe he also ran a T70 for Dave Jordan (Eagle 512 driver),Lothar Motschenbacher, Ed Leslie, and Scooter Patrick at Daytona. As for the AMC motor, I have the build sheet for the original that went into the AIR Eagle. It was an AMC block with Chevy internals.
[QUOTE=HDonaldCapps;6345]I am surprised to an extent that no one has mentioned Allen Brown's excellent site --
Thought it interesting that a discussion of F5000 began with a few photographs of a USAC Championship car, an Eagle, rather than a pukka F5000 machine.
Liked the notion of F/A or F5000 from the beginning, but its last season or so in the US was a bit painful to watch at times. "
Donald,
In answer to your pertinent questions:
Allen Brown's oldracingcars.com has certainly been mentioned in the Formula Pacific thread and is an amazing resource.
In NZ, Formula A/ 5000 began as a one off promotion by the somewhat anti establishment promoters of Bay Park and the earliest cobbled together fields here (and thus photographs) were an oddball mix of machines and it was only when F5000 became the official premier single seater class here that the field consisted of pukka F5000 cars, albeit with the occasional F2 car thrown in.
I suspect the demise of F5000 here and elsewhere had much to do with a fundamental flaw in the "stock block" concept, as used at the time in both F5000 and F2. Introduced to keep costs under control, as engine builders found ways to extract more and more power from the stock block, perversely, costs spiraled out of control as engine reliabilty declined. In European F2, the rules were changed to allow pure race engines, thus as an example, Brian Hart could build the Hart 420R using all the leasons learnt from the ubiquitous Ford block with none of its limitations.
In NZ a combination of reduced fields due to rising engine costs with even more depleted numbers of finishers due to unreliability lead to the final series being farcical.
Further to Howards excellent post above, I wrote a very brief history on the class back when this forum was still new, in May, although that thread dried up pretty quickly: http://www.theroaringseason.com/show...mula-5000-CarsQuote:
Originally Posted by HDonaldCapps
There seem to be quite a few theories as to why the formula failed, cost being the most obvious which was probably more the case in NZ. But I wonder also if the SCCA switching to the centre-seat Can-Am formula also had a negative flow-on effect to other countries as it dried up the chassis supply. Afterall, this formula was almost exclusively based on teams being able to purchase an engine and chassis and go racing, as most didn't have the capacity to build their own chassis'. It survived on the ability to assemble a field made up of customer cars.
Thanks for that, some great links and excellent reading material there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle512
Here is that Youtube link you supplied:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtOgml5O5SM
Didn't the Can-Am switch come after F5000 died in NZ? In any case, it was English builders who supplied most of the F5000 chassisQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve Holmes
I think the formula died in NZ largely because its lifespan coincided with enormous growth in saloon racing, and new saloon categories, which appealed to spectators more. Any available sponsorship money went increasingly to saloon operations, thus depriving the once-drawcard single-seater series of funding. And, of course, the promotional establishment was insufficiently far-sighted to do anything about promoting 5000 racing as much as it could have
Yes David, agreed. F5000 in NZ was on its way out as the SCCA switched to the new Can-Am formula. The last year for the formula in the US was 1976. In fact, by the time the SCCA made the change the formula was all but dead in the UK too. Now that I think about it, Australia would have been the only country affected by this. The English builders did supply most of the chassis', but Lola was dominant here, and they would have switched to building centre seat Can-Am cars, even though the early examples were really modified F5000s.
Saloon racing was certainly on the up and up by the early 70s in NZ, although in reality saloon car racing was also suffering with thin grids and lack of money. NZ came to rely heavily on importing overseas teams for the international events, and Bay Park regularly imported international teams for their bigger events, but really this class was suffering, and this eventually showed when it was canned following the 1977 season. Only two cars contested the entire 1977 NZ Saloon Car Championship! All in all, the mid-70s were probably not a good time for NZ motorsport. Though in saying that, the mid-70s were a difficult time in many countries.
But the promotion and magazine coverage at this time still suggested open wheeler racing was very much considered the premier form of racing in NZ.
Not to show my considerable lack of knowledge or familiarity with Racing Down Under, but it obvious that it was literally a very different world than that of US F/A & F/5000 racing, even if there were various connections.
In the US, there were several factors that seemed to lead to the demise of F/5000, the withdrawal of USAC after its agreement with the SCCA to con-sanction the series ended in 1976 and USAC decided to not renew or adopt a similar program for a road racing series of its own. There were also concerns expressed by the promoters regarding the series, the lack of spectators buying tickets being among them as well as questions as to what next given the loss of USAC and any possible series sponsorship being a big question mark.
Within the SCCA, there was still a strong sense of yearning, a nostalgia, for the days of the old Can-Am, many thinking that the club should return to sports car racing and get away from the formula cars. The compromise was to clothe the F/5000 in sports-car-like bodywork, revive the Can-Am name. Many assumed that this would be the ticket to success, a success greatly needed by the SCCA since IMSA had largely usurped its position in professional sports car racing in the US with the Camel GT and other series, the Trans Am also being on life support at the moment.
Somewhere buried in my files is an interview I did with Cameron Argetsinger regarding this issue, he being the executive director (or some similar title) for SCCA pro racing at that time. The meeting held towards the end of of the 1976 season to discuss the future of the formula made it clear that the cost-benefit analyses for all involved was not one that favored the current direction in which things were headed. Turning the F/5000 machines into "Can-Am" cars seemed to be the best of the options that seemed available at the time. That change was both needed and desired by those involved carried the day. Argetsinger made it clear that it was not one or two things that "killed" F/5000 in the US, but rather a combination of factors and also that US racing overall -- with the possible exception of IMSA and maybe NASCAR Winston Cup -- was in something of the doldrums at that moment.
On a strictly person note, it was clear that US F/5000 was in serious trouble as early as the 1974 season. Although the 1975 seemed to go well, it merely flattered to deceive, the next season, 1976, showing all the signs of a series beginning to if not collapse, at least not long for this world. I thought that the introduction of qualifying heats during the 1973 season was a step in the wrong direction. Plus, the purse monies seemed not to be commensurate with the investments required to compete. In truth, the F/B/Atlantic races often tended to be better. To me, the series seemed to lose its way by some point in 1974 and definitely by 1975. As someone who really liked the F/5000 series from its inception, this was a bit dismaying. Wandering through the paddocks and observing as well as talking with various folks involved with the series did not boost my confidence in its long-term survival. I was not surprised with the series essentially folded and reincarnated itself as Can-Am in 1976. In truth, I just never seemed to take to the new Can-Am series, never really paying it all that much attention after the first season or so. I will admit to being surprised it lasted as long as it did, something I would never have imagined.
In some ways, what may have killed US F/5000 was the success of IMSA and the inability of the SCCA to find a countermeasure to the success of John Bishop's approach to racing, which was quite different than that of the SCCA: IMSA made money while the SCCA pro series struggled to minimize its losses.
At any rate, just some food for thought on this topic.
Thats an excellent post Don. Your point about the length in which the single-seat Can-Am survived is a good one. I think it may have actually survived longer than F5000?
Was there an undercurrent within the SCCA to return to amateur racing, from which it originally grew?
Isn't it amazing to compare the SCCA and where it was in 1970, and where it found itself just 5 years later. In 1970 they had the Can-Am (the original and proper Can-Am), Trans-Am, and F5000. The Trans-Am in particular was enjoying good manufacturer support in 1970. The Can-Am had McLaren, Lola, BRM, Shadow, Chaparral, and March involvement. But things were very different by 1975. Granted, they were probably victims of the times as they were by their own decisions, the ponycar market had completely fallen away, and the world was in the midst of an oil crisis.
By the time most of the field were in Lola 330/332s, some of the appeal had gone, but also the closeness of the racing. Arguably a similar thing happened with F.Atlantic/Pacific - when it was Ralt RT1s, Chevrons B34/39s and March 76B/77Bs - racing was much closer than when everyone got RT4s - wasn't it?
Both F5000 and F.Atlantic started with multiple constructors - and both prospered. In time, both became dominated by one-make, or a small handful at the most, and the categories petered out - coincidence?
There is possibly something much simpler. How much horsepower did a decent SBC spit out in 1969/70 - 430/450? By 1973-75 they had in excess of 520 - and the fields spread out more and more. A bit like Can-Am - the faster they got because of more power, the quicker the spectacle diminished.
Thinking about it now, you have a good point Michael. You'd think that with most of the cars being similar makes/models, the racing would be closer, but that often wasn't the case.
I think F5000 was forgiven a lot and I think peoples memories of it now are often viewed through rose-tinted glasses, because the cars themselves were so charismatic. But often the racing was drawn out and processional, with little overtaking after the first few laps, and the only question mark over the eventual race winner was whether his car could reach the finish or not.
The 5000s are running at Manfeild next weekend - i.e. the 12th/13th and are at Ruapuna this weekend for the Lady Wigram.
Kenny will be debuting his T332 - I'm looking forward to seeing the livery. It isn't his 1974-77 car but I know he has been tempted to turn it out in red - I wonder if he'll put La Valise Travel stickers over it..
It seems likely Michael, I think he ran La Valise stickers on his Matich many years ago didn't he?
One could suggest that this applies equally to about any type of automobile racing, present as well as past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Holmes
One of my favorite in-car videos. Kenny Smith at Pukekohe. Watch the hands. Listen to the wheelspin and throttle application just on the verge. Never give up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhdglIyKLNE
Hey thats great! Thanks for posting. Why did the T400 and T430 not enjoy the same popularity among teams as the T330/T332?
I could be wrong and should be corrected ;) I heard that the T400's rising rate suspension was extremely difficult to dial in (pitch sensitive?). There were stories of T332 suspension being adapted/grafted to the T400. In Europe the T400's did ok. In the US the top teams reverted to the 332's and so (I suspect) development on the T400's suffered.
Here are some shots from Ruapuna last weekend
http://i40.tinypic.com/30ucvmd.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/13zx18p.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/33lpbvr.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2gvu7hh.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/t6cf2o.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/e6esev.jpg
Thanks. Yes that was my understanding too. It seemed that the T400s were potentially faster, but that there was a much smaller window to get the set-up right with them. At least thats always been my limited understanding of them. Kevin Bartlett joined this forum recently. I was hoping he might jump in here and give us some first hand insight into the differences, as he raced both at the highest level during the '70s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle512
I hear there was a big shunt at Manfeild (NZ) in the F5000 race last weekend. Was everyone OK?
HISTORIC RACING CLUB/NZ FORMULA 5000 ASSOCIATION
Press release
For immediate release
* 2011/12 MSC New Zealand F5000 Tasman Cup Revival Series
Rnd 2
Solid Gold MG Classic meeting
Manfeild
Feilding
Sat-Sun
Nov 12-13
2011
EVENT REPORT
13-11-11
ROSS WINS MSC FEATURE AFTER SMITH AND ESTERER SIDELINED EARLIER BY STARTLINE CRASH
Dunedin driver Steve Ross led home a McRae GM1 1-2-3 in the feature McLaren Cup Formula Libre Grand Prix at the second round of the 2011/12 MSC NZ F5000 Tasman Cup Revival Series at Feilding's Manfeild circuit today (Sunday) after pace-setters Ken Smith and Jay Esterer were sidelined earlier in a spectacular startline crash.
Smith proved the value of his freshly rebuilt Lola T332 on Saturday, pipping Rnd 1 winner Esterer (McRae GM1) in qualifying before going on to win the first race. But the pair got no further than the rolling start in the second race of the weekend this (Sunday) morning thanks to a shower of rain which swept across the Manawatu circuit as the MSC field was lining up for the rolling start.
The start lights had just gone out to signal the start of the race when Smith's car snapped hard left on the wet track, clipping fellow front row starter Jay Esterer's MacRae GM1 before hitting the concrete pit (outside) wall hard.
Esterer's car also hit the pit wall and came to a stop as the field streamed past but Smith's car glanced off it (the pit wall) and careered back across the track before coming to rest on the grass strip between the track and the inside wall.
Roger Williams, who started the race behind Esterer, missed the Canadian's car but was himself hit from behind by one of the other cars and his Lola T332 ended up jammed against the inside wall with a broken left front wheel and suspension componentry.
Fellow Lola T332 driver Russell Greer also ended up against the pit wall, but though his car spun 180 degrees to face the way it was originally coming the only damage was to a front upright.
The race was immediately stopped then cancelled to allow track workers to remove the cars and the MSC field to re-group for the longer McLaren Cup Formula Libre feature later in the day.
Incredibly, the accident was the biggest Smith can remember - and that's going back over 54 consecutive seasons of national level racing for the 70-year-old.
"It was a biggie, alright,"said the four-time Lady Wigram Trophy and three-time New Zealand Grand Prix winner whose only injury was a tweaked left ankle caused when his car first hit the wall. "I've never had one like that before.
"It was wet and the track was greasy and when I floored it at the start she just snapped sideways," he said. "There was nothing I could do. I could see the wall coming up and I knew I was going to go in hard."
Though he agreed it was extremely fortunate that neither he nor anyone else was injured in the accident Smith said that it was hard to see his new car so badly damaged so early in his time with it.
"That's definitely the toughest bit, particularly knowing the time and effort Barry Miller (Smith's crew chief) has put in since we bought it."
In the absence of Smith, Esterer and Roger Williams the 15-lap McLaren Cup feature produced two entertaining three-car battles.
The first involved pole-sitter Stu Lush and fellow McRae GM1 drivers Steve Ross and Aaron Burson with Ross passing Lush for the lead at Turn 1 and dictating the pace from that point. Both Lush and Burson got close at times, but not quite close enough to launch an attack on Ross' lead.
"Yep," said Ross, "it was one of those races that was going to be won or lost on the first lap. It hasn't been the best weekend for me for one reason or another but this was a brilliant way to end it."
In what turned out to be a something of a race of attrition, visiting UK driver Greg Thornton (Chevron B24) earned his best result of his 2011/12 MSC series campaign so far with fourth after spending the early laps working his way past Brett Willis (Lola T330) and Sefton Gibb (Lola T332).
Willis made the initial running after Gibb admitted he messed up the start, however Willis ended up in the pits just after the half way point of the race with gear selection problems and Gibb stopped on the last lap when his car ran out of petrol.
"We've changed the fuel system since we last ran here and didn't quite have enough for the full 15 laps, "Gibb explained.
Russell Greer, who managed to repair the damage to his Lola T332 after the morning's start-line accident was next home in fifth place followed by Shayne Windelburn in fellow Aucklander John MacKinlay's March 73A/2 with Aaron Burson's father Peter seventh in his McRae GM1 and Dave Arrowsmith (Lotus 70) the first of the Class A category (for older model cars) runners to cross the line in eighths.
Series newcomer David Banks from Auckland (Talon MR1) was ninth and local driver Tim Rush (Begg FM4) tenth.
Race 2 (8 laps)
canceled
Race 1 (8 lap)
This was the race that Smith proved just how quick his new T332 was, converting the pole position he set in qualifying earlier in the day to a 10.79 second lead over Jay Esterer (who, in his defence, had a problem holding his car in third gear) with Roger Williams and Stu Lush third and fourth respectively.
Lush was the big surprise in qualifying, setting the third quickest time to split Esterer and Williams with Steve Ross fifth and Sefton Gibb sixth.
Lush retained his speed in the race, crossing the finish line fourth between Williams and Ross.
It was behind them that the real battle raged, however, with Gibb, Greg Thornton and Aaron Burson entertaining the large crowd with a race-long battle for sixth place only finally resolved - in Gibb's favour from Thornton, Burson - and a catching Brett Willis - on the line.
The MSC F5000 Tasman Cup Revival Series is organised and run with the support of sponsors MSC, NZ Express Transport, Bonney's Specialized Bulk Transport, Mobil Lubricants, Pacifica, Smith & Davies, Avon Tyres and Exide.
Ends
CAPTIONS
The MSC NZ F5000 Tasman Cup Revival Series field streaming down Manfeild's back straight immediately before the startline shunt at the beginning of the second race which claimed the cars of front row starters Ken Smith and Jay Esterer, and second row starter Roger Williams. Steve Ross leading the field in the feature race later in the day. Photo credit: Fast Company/Alex Mitchell
2010/11 MSC New Zealand F5000 Tasman Cup Revival Series
Rnd 2 Solid Gold MG Classic meeting Manfeild Sat-Sun Nov 12-13
Qualifying
1. Ken Smith (Lola T3232) 1.02.71
2. Jay Esterer (McRae GM1) 1.02.93
3. Stuart Lush (McRae GM1) 1.03.93
4. Roger Williams (Lola T332) 1.03.95
5. Steve Ross (McRae GM1) 1.04.13
6. Sefton Gibb (Lola T332) 1.05.33
Race 1 (8 laps)
1. Ken Smith
2. Jay Esterer +10.79
3. Roger Williams +11.25
4. Stuart Lush +14.01
5. Steve Ross +15.36
6. Sefton Gibb +25.31
7. Greg Thornton (Chevron B24) +25.71
8. Aaron Burson (McRae GM1) +26.43
9. Brett Willis (Lola T330) +29.66
Race 2 (8 laps)
Cancelled
Race 3 (15 laps)
1. Steve Ross 16.18.60
2. Stu Lush +0.70
3. Aaron Burson +6.88
4. Greg Thornton +20.23
5. Russell Greer +42.48
6. Shayne Windelburn +64.90
7. Peter Burson +68.93
8. Dave Arrowsmith +70.89
9. David Banks +1 lap
10. Tim Rush +1 lap
dnf Sefton Gibb, Brett Willis.
Calendar
Rnd 1: Nov 05/06 2011 Wigram Revival meeting, Powerbuilt Tools Raceway @ Ruapuna Park Christchurch
Rnd 2: Nov 12-13 2011 MG Classic Manfeild Feilding
Rnd 3: Jan 21-22 2012 NZ Festival of Motor Racing - BMW meeting x 1 Hampton Downs Auckland
Rnd 4: Jan 28-29 2012 NZ Festival of Motor Racing - BMW meeting x 2 Hampton Downs Auckland
Rnd 5: Feb 04/05 2012 Skope Classic meeting Powerbuilt Tools Raceway @ Ruapuna Park Christchurch
Rnd 6: March 09-11 2012 Phillip Island Classic meeting Phillip Island Victoria Australia
Thanks for that Eagle. A nasty crash, and its never good to see these beautiful cars getting damaged. Sounds like Kenny Smith has a broken foot. Amazing how quickly these things can happen. There is some amateur footage here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10150354345575163
Other than the crash, looks like it was a good weekend of racing and a good turnout of cars.
Here's a shot of the Gurney Eagle, brand new, rolling out of the Gurney shop. Lots of other period photos on the website as well.
http://www.riversideinternational.or...viewing36.html
Pic of Lola
Who? What? Where? When?
The POSB decals suggest it was running in an NZ Gold Star round, but it's not ringing any bells
It was Kenny's crash at Manfield a couple of weekends ago. He had done his Lola up in the old La Valise Travel colour scheme so I suppose to keep the period theme correct he got some replica POSB decals made up.Quote:
Originally Posted by David McKinney
Of course - my brain was back in the '70s...
I spotted the POSB decal as Kenny was showing me over the car on the Friday - when I used words like 'Kenny it is beautiful - maybe even too good to race...'
He told me he had an old POSB decal and had some new ones made up.
Dagnab it ! The car looks quite badly mashed...and now the little bloke's got the Lola Limp...
I understand Jay Esterers McRae is quite badly damaged too?
Message
Is there a better way !!!!
The BMW Festival looks to have a great line up of these cars. Maybe it could become the world's best F5000 racing series with the overseas drivers coming out again this year. A few more of the Aussies would have been welcome, although I believe that the field size is at maximum allowable size.
From Bathurst Program
Steve,Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Holmes
Yes it was but he's brought his other GM1 over from Canada. I'm going to say (having seen the gearbox through many corners) it's equally as fast as the one he lost at Feilding.
There are 35+ 5000's entered for the NZ Festival of Motor Racing. Drivers from North America are Jay Esterer, Hamish Somerville, Seb Coppola, Eric Haga, and Harin DeSilva.
Seb heads up the US F5000 Association, stop and say hello if you get a chance!
Steve Davis
Eagle #512
Press Release:
http://f5000.webdesign.net.nz/?id=243
Hey thanks for that info Eagle. I hope the damaged car is repairable though, given enough time and money?
I think it was just the time that ran out for this event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Holmes
Check out this link http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=G...ngines&f=false