H&C Commission at the Legends of Speed Meeting, Hampton Downs

Hi All;

The full MSNZ Historic & Classic Commission will be attending the above meeting on Saturday and Sunday 23rd/24th March. We will be out and about during both days checking COD's as auditors, but also available for a sharing of ideas and opinions at any time.
A more 'formal" setting for you to give us feedback is on the Saturday afternoon after the last race where we would like to met you all in the events centre at Hampton Downs. Good time for a BBQ and a beer or two, but as importantly to answer your questions, address your concerns and listen to your ideas.

Hope to see you all there

Raymond Bennett
Chairman
MSNZ H&C Commission

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Originally Posted by crunch

Hi All;

The full MSNZ Historic & Classic Commission will be attending the above meeting on Saturday and Sunday 23rd/24th March. We will be out and about during both days checking COD's as auditors, but also available for a sharing of ideas and opinions at any time.
A more 'formal" setting for you to give us feedback is on the Saturday afternoon after the last race where we would like to met you all in the events centre at Hampton Downs. Good time for a BBQ and a beer or two, but as importantly to answer your questions, address your concerns and listen to your ideas.

Hope to see you all there

Raymond Bennett
Chairman
MSNZ H&C Commission

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Hell you couldn't get a much better chance to air your views and try to get some of these issues put to bed or at least let everyone have their say. Good on you and your team Crunch

Crunch-just a shame Leadfoot is on at the same time and many of our numbers will be there.
However those of us who will be there will certainly take advantage of your offer.
I personally will be gratefull for an audience to confirm things for my Monaro.
I agree with Mike-good on you and your team.

Agree.

Sad that Leadfoot is a clash as it takes away far too many regulars and probably a fair few spectators.

Shouldn't HRC & Mr Millen talk this through, as it will probably clash next year as well, as HRC already have their date set for March 22/23 2014? (Apparently, they are now discussing 2014, so I hope we can get to both.)
Maybe you could bring along one of the technical team too Crunch? Just an idea... But a very serious suggestion. Time that the Technical department came to a North, North Island meeting and spoke to the classic troops, as even with Leadfoot, there will still be twice as many licence payers as at a Tier 1 meeting!

Crunch,
As you seem to attract more than your fair share of complaints here, I would like to say that the two auditors who checked my COD at HDFMR could not have been nicer or more obliging. They turned up when things were a bit hectic, waited paitently until I had a moment for them and were quick and efficient. Well done to them.

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Originally Posted by Howard Wood

Crunch,
As you seem to attract more than your fair share of complaints here, I would like to say that the two auditors who checked my COD at HDFMR could not have been nicer or more obliging. They turned up when things were a bit hectic, waited paitently until I had a moment for them and were quick and efficient. Well done to them.

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Thanks Howard, great to here good news. I will pass that on to them. I am proud of the Audit team as they are a great bunch of enthusiasts

Crunch, with your more `formal' meeting on the Saturday afternoon, would it not be a good idea for each HRC class to have one or two of its members stand up to put forward some valid points relevant to their particular class, as all you`ll end up with is a drawn out shit fight that everyone will walk away from none the wiser. Some of the competitors/classes at the Legends meeting have no involvement in Historic Racing, therefore their views will only be time consuming. The best participant you could have at the meeting is Julian Leach, as he needs to front up, be confronted with some serious questions, and respond with some intelligent answers.
One point I will raise that seems to be a revolving scenario on here is roll cages: Who, and at what stage of their illustrious career, decided that `Historic' meaning old, and `Roll Cage' meaning new, would somehow end up having a relationship! Would it not be more logical to look at the `big picture'. If someone is going to slide their arse into a forty five year old race car such as my Camaro, and race against similarly minded people in very similar cars, at what stage does signing an idemnity form take effect? I don`t have a problem with my car, but there seems to be plenty that are. If you simplified a rule whereby a car that has competed in NZ or any FIA sanctioned country with a roll cage with proof, prior to 1980, making effectively a 30 year rule, can compete at Historic meetings, subject to general scrutineering, where is the problem in allowing these cars to run. I understand that safety is paramount, as is common sense, but who is the risk really with here? A lot of the early Shellsport cars, Minis, Sports Sedans, etc, that have previously raced, and plenty of people want to see them race again, won`t leave their current hiding places because of some pretty pathetic red tape which should be targeted more towards `modern' motorsport rather than the effect it currently has on the older cars and owners. It`ll be an interesting meeting.......

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Originally Posted by fullnoise68

If you simplified a rule whereby a car that has competed in NZ or any FIA sanctioned country with a roll cage with proof, prior to 1980, making effectively a 30 year rule, can compete at Historic meetings, subject to general scrutineering, where is the problem in allowing these cars to run...

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There is no problem in allowing these cars to run as what you have suggested is the current rule MSNZ has worked to for years. The key word is PROOF. If that is provided (either as a logbook, photos, original drawings etc) there is no problem.
The "new" Shellsport group of enthusiasts know that as I have informed the president, the current HMC class understand it as do most people. Some choose not to...

Sorry, but I can't agree that just because period proof is required, one car can run in that spec and another can't.

If a car ran in period without a 44mm steel cage, (or has been caught out in the transition trap), or is supposed to be period correct, I still struggle to accept that a newer cage with 38mm main hoop to a previously approved design is a problem and is rejected out of hand. Yes, let the technical department front up, as most of our issues do not seem to be with the H & C Commission.

So I agree generally with fullnoise68.

Can you also please clarify something publically Crunch. I received an email last night (from a respected senior figure) stating that the H & C Commission was only responsible for cars with a CoD. If a car - even a bog standard classic Mustang/MGB/Ford Escort etc. - had no CoD, then it only came under the auspices of the race commission?

This is a crucial point given that whatever is covered at the meeting by the H & C Commission could only relate to cars with a CoD?

Obviously if that is the case, then there are going to be an awful lot of drivers with 100% Classic cars, particularly with bog standad cars, who are not going to front up with $240 just to buy a piece of paper.

ERC, your dilemma with your rollcage is not what I was referring to. I was referring to people like Craig Stacey with the Nazer Victor, Rod Grimwood with his Escort, etc. These cars should be able to race again on the basis they have previous race history. If the log book has been lost,etc, the cars are well enough known and documented in magazines, photos, etc, it should be a no brainer. Supposed classic or historic cars built in the last few years are obviously a different kettle of fish. I wasn`t taking a swipe at Crunch or the Commission as you repeatedly do, I was merely stating that surely a common sense approach needs to be taken with the known existing older cars. The thing that I can`t work out is why people like Dave Sturrock and his nearly completed HMC Camaro have had to put bloody near a Super Tourer rollcage into what is essentially a historic class car, rather than something relevant to Schedule K as it should be. That is why I said Julian Leach should front up, as his attitude seems to be costing a lot of people a lot of money. I have no problem with Crunch at all......

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Originally Posted by fullnoise68

Supposed classic or historic cars built in the last few years are obviously a different kettle of fish. I wasn`t taking a swipe at Crunch or the Commission as you repeatedly do....

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If that is your opinion... Far from taking a swipe at Crunch, I believe he has an impossible job.

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Originally Posted by fullnoise68

The thing that I can`t work out is why people like Dave Sturrock and his nearly completed HMC Camaro have had to put bloody near a Super Tourer rollcage into what is essentially a historic class car, rather than something relevant to Schedule K as it should be. That is why I said Julian Leach should front up, as his attitude seems to be costing a lot of people a lot of money. I have no problem with Crunch at all......

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Amen to that. If Dave has to put in an Eiffel tower, then I presume it is for the same reasons that MSNZ demand I do the same - and mine is a road car with a 1956 shell and less than 200bhp...

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Originally Posted by ERC

Can you also please clarify something publically Crunch. I received an email last night (from a respected senior figure) stating that the H & C Commission was only responsible for cars with a CoD. If a car - even a bog standard classic Mustang/MGB/Ford Escort etc. - had no CoD, then it only came under the auspices of the race commission?
.

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Absolutely incorrect. Any car that belongs to a classic type car club, or marque club, or enters a "H&C " race meeting is a "classic" car.
Would like to know who that person was Ray as they are out-of-touch, or being mischevious...or both? PM me if you can

Just to follow on from that....you could have a bog-standard MGB, or Jowett Javelin, or Mark 2 Escort they dont need a logbook or a COD but can enter race meetings as a classic car

Therein lies the problem ERC. This has nothing to do with YOUR car! A `67 - 69 Camaro is a worldwide recognised muscle car. I will guarantee if you put 22 of YOUR 1956 cars in a marquee as we had with the HMC at the Denny Hulme Festival, you wouldn`t have got 5% of the punters that were interested in our cars. I simply stated that Dave has had to go to a hell of a lot of trouble and expense to build something far more complex than what Schedule K would have required. Yes, that is my opinion, as is you don`t need to twist everything around to revolve around you.

[QUOTE=ERC;25770..... the H & C Commission was only responsible for cars with a CoD. If a car - even a bog standard classic Mustang/MGB/Ford Escort etc. - had no CoD, then it only came under the auspices of the race commission? ... [/QUOTE]

An interesting point Ray. Without trying to preempt Crunch, some comments :

Under the MSNZ By Laws each Commission has it's terms of reference set by Council :

4.5.2 Terms of Reference: Council shall determine the terms of reference for each advisory commission.

Under the MSNZ Manual Appendix Six it states under "Responsibilities" that "The Historic and Classic Advisory Commission will provide : a framework of competition regulations for vehicles produced during the time period covered by the Commission's brief ...". It then goes onto to talk about compliance with current regulations, CODs, Identity Classification, Vehicle Categories (K, T&C, CR) etc.

So it seems the H&C Commissions are focused on MSNZ's interpretation of what constitutes an historic or classic vehicle - being one that complies with their established Vehicle Categories (but not necessarily having to have a COD as Appendix Six only states that it is the "preferred method of vehicle identity classification ...").

As you point out, this leaves quite a number of cars that consider themselves historic or classic cars but for whatever reason they fall outside of the established Vehicle Categories.

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Originally Posted by crunch

Just to follow on from that....you could have a bog-standard MGB, or Jowett Javelin, or Mark 2 Escort they dont need a logbook or a COD but can enter race meetings as a classic car

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I think the COD requirement that Ray mentioned is a bit of a red herring. Isn't it just that a compliant historic or classic car is one that meets one of the Identity Classification / Vehicle Categories under Appendix Six.

ERC- you have a separate thread already for your roll cage problems, lets keep this thread for other things we want to discuss

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Originally Posted by crunch

Just to follow on from that....you could have a bog-standard MGB, or Jowett Javelin, or Mark 2 Escort they dont need a logbook or a COD but can enter race meetings as a classic car

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Thanks Crunch. Will send a PM. However, I was under the impression that a Clubsport car doesn't need a logbook, (Classic Trial etc) but ALL cars racing under a national permit do.

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Originally Posted by ERC

Thanks Crunch. Will send a PM. However, I was under the impression that a Clubsport car doesn't need a logbook, (Classic Trial etc) but ALL cars racing under a national permit do.

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Straight from the rule book, As you can see any Clubsport car that is a dedicated motorsport vehicle the logbook is a mandatory item

1) Issue and use of Logbooks: MotorSport NZ issues Vehicle Logbooks on receipt of a
completed application form and fee. Logbooks are used to record all relevant
information pertaining to a vehicle’s competition history.
(2) Requirements: It is recommended that all vehicles have a Logbook, however for the
following vehicles a valid Logbook is mandatory:
(a) All vehicles competing in a Series, and
(b) All Purpose Built and all Dedicated Motorsport Vehicles, and
(c) All vehicles requiring a LVV / MotorSport Authority card, and
(d) As required by the Event Supplementary Regulations.

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Originally Posted by fullnoise68

The thing that I can`t work out is why people like Dave Sturrock and his nearly completed HMC Camaro have had to put bloody near a Super Tourer rollcage into what is essentially a historic class car,

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Lot more to this story Steve, Dave's Camaro had an existing "log-booked" roll-cage made out of seamless steel but was pretty basic so he cut it out to build a new one in Chrome-moly, his builder forgot to up-size the main hoop in the build(or something along those lines) and this was not MSNZ's fault(i believe) so they had to work with the MSNZ tech department and add bars as per the "tech-departments requirements"(and rightly so) or cut it out again to add the correct size, it all worked out in the end with everyone happy except it does have a bit of a V8 Super-car look!! but them again Dave is a bit of a "V8 Super-car" driver, LOL.

If Daves on this forum he may chime in here with more accurate details!!

Im behind the MSNZ tech department on this one!!

Dale M

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Originally Posted by Carlo

Straight from the rule book, As you can see any Clubsport car that is a dedicated motorsport vehicle the logbook is a mandatory item

1) Issue and use of Logbooks: MotorSport NZ issues Vehicle Logbooks on receipt of a
completed application form and fee. Logbooks are used to record all relevant
information pertaining to a vehicle’s competition history.
(2) Requirements: It is recommended that all vehicles have a Logbook, however for the
following vehicles a valid Logbook is mandatory:
(a) All vehicles competing in a Series, and
(b) All Purpose Built and all Dedicated Motorsport Vehicles, and
(c) All vehicles requiring a LVV / MotorSport Authority card, and
(d) As required by the Event Supplementary Regulations.

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So to put this simply; if you have a standard road car, you dont need a Log Book. This covers clubsport to circuit racing, EXCEPT where some events such as SOME gravel hillclimbs stipulate you must have roll protection (so then you would need a logbook). This is up to an organiser to decide.
As far as circuit racing you don't. It does say if you are competing in a series you to, but I have got round this one in the past by simply not registering for a series, but entering the races. It was a few years ago...and I do have a couple of oldish Fords in the garage that are my old road cars and I might want to bring them out one day, just as they are.

Hi Crunch I will be there SAT.
To have A chat with you Crunch on SID Mk 111 Role cage ECT complete with A log book and full photo history of car and I will bring my COD swinger AND A SMILE Jamie A

In the latest Australia Muscle Car on page 15 they have a wee article on the Historic Motor Racing scene over in Aust, it mentions CAMS COD's for Group A and C Saloons costing just under $1000, they say it adds more than that amount to car values!! Hmmmm aren't we lucky here in NZ with COD's under $100.

Dale M

Can't see a bog standard $4,500 MGB GT or MGF bought off TM, increasing to $5,500 just because it has a CoD Dale!

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Originally Posted by Kiwiboss

Hmmmm aren't we lucky here in NZ with COD's under $100.

Dale M

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hmm with the salary/wage difference across the ditch (and govt closing the gap plans....well...only getting wider apart) it is about right here in NZ.