Indy Roadsters

I was speaking to a fellow 'TRSer' this afternoon and suggested he would love to indulge himself in some quality You Tube time looking at highlights of the Indianapolis 500 during the Roadster period - as I had done over part of Easter.

I rather got the impression my friend wouldn't be interested in even the 2 to 3 minute highlight package, let alone the 15 - 20 minute versions I watched for all 12 Indy 500s where a Roadster led.

I cannot precisely explain what it is about these cars and the era that have captivated me so but there is no doubt part of the attraction is the personalities involved - drivers, team owners, mechanics, sponsors etc.

This is probably a thread that will sink without trace - but if you have a few moments, and are remotely interested - have a look at a highlight package. Pick a year between 1952 and 1964 and see if you can stop at just one after watching it...

There is a man in Rotorua building one ,that will bring back some fun again

There is a real one at Beachlands!

The one in Rotorua is real and from the USA,just needs a bit more work to make it fly

Interesting - I wonder what sort and what the history is.

I thought I'd sat in the only one in NZ!

I love the roadsters as well.. not sure if this one qualifies in the beauty stakes though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fdRY__lLu0

Jim, we have a new multi-million dollar velodrome being built here in Cambridge for the 6 cyclists that live in town!! I should think there will be plenty of time between training sessions that the Indy Roadster could be put through it's paces. Could be worth watching.

Remember the 'Belond Exhaust Spl'........and the STP turbine....some good names the Yanks thought up for these machines.

My favourite name was the Dean Van Lines Special. It wasn't until I made my first trip to the US that I found out that it was Dean Van Lines, and not Dean van Lines (as in a Dutchman!)

Does this count? The Monzanapolis Lister Jaguar? Taken at the Goodwood Revivival 2009

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Or from the 1996 Goodwood Festival of Speed

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What about Norm Hall, ran in 1964 in a Watson which he entered as the "Nothing Special".

The Roadster era was doomed from the moment Jack Brabham took his Tasman spec Cooper to Indy in 1961, complete with 2.7 Climax making 280hp on a good day. The Yanks initially laughed at the car but after running 3rd at one point and finally finishing 9th, the laughing was a bit hollow.

Jim Clark and Lotus of course then went and did the job properly but it was Black Jack thinking outside the square who sowed the idea.

Absolutely right Howard - next month marks two significant roadster anniversaries - it is 60 years since the first roadster victory, and 50 years since Jim Clark seriously rattled the dinosuars with what they called 'his funny car'.

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Yes that is the car I sat in at Beachlands - it was the Bob Cortner car in which he was killed when freak gust of wind caught it during qualifying for the 1959 Indy 500.

I know it looks prehistoric alongside a Cooper or Lotus - but so do 250Fs, D50s and 246s, yet that doesn't diminish their appeal.

Did these Guys have seat-belts in those days? All the Roadsters seem to have a large padded piece in the middle of the steering wheel. Dont think it would do much good in the event of a crash.

The history of that car would make it a sad car. Don't think I could buy a car knowing that it had killed someone.
Prehistoric they may have been, but don't they look the part with all the colours and sign-writing.

16 inch wheels Dale........LoL.....

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Originally Posted by Michael Clark

I know it looks prehistoric alongside a Cooper or Lotus - but so do 250Fs, D50s and 246s, yet that doesn't diminish their appeal.

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I've always liked the look of these roadsters too. I can't imagine it'd be that easy getting hold of one in the States

Even the name "Offenhauser" engenders a bit of spirit! We sometimes used to listen to the live commentary on dad's short wave radio!

I can reccomend Smokey Junick's 3 books if you all are interested in this period of Indy racing. He states that if you let the steering wheel go when the engine was up to speed, you would be lucky to get a grip of it again, as the engine vibration made the rim grow to about 4 " in diamater! Those Offies were 4.2 litres and only 4 cylinders.

The first type of car to be dubbed 'Roadster' was built by Kurtis for Indy in 1952 - a Cummins Diesel powered version sat on pole but it was the Offy powered one of Bill Vukovich that dominated the race - but didn't win. That went to a converted dirt car - but from 1953 until Jim Clark and Lotus won in 1965, every Indy 500 was won by an Offenhauser powered Roadster.

Yes there were some great names - my favourite was probably the John Zink Track Burner Special. Zink's cars won in 1955 and 56 (Kurtis then the first for a Watson) - there were only a few basic Roadster designs but there were a many builders. A J Watson seemed to be quite happy for other builders to make copies of his designs.

In general terms, Roadsters were either 'uprights', or 'lay-downs'. The Epperley/Salih lay-down design turned up in '57 and the same car won again in '58 but that after that, the 'uprights' won from 59-64, although the lay-downs were still there or thereabouts.

Ray - as to whether the Monzapolis qualifies - that's not up to me to determine but man it is gorgeous.

For what it is worth, here are my top 10 Roadster conductors:

1. Bill Vukovich - won in '53 & '54 and killed during the '55 race. It was Vukie that coined the 'Roadster' nickname.
2. Roger Ward - won in '59 & '62 in Leader Cards Watsons
3. A J Foyt - won in '61 then took the final dinosaur win in '64 - in '61 the 'Bowes Seal Fast Special' was a Trevis chassis - but really a Watson.
4. R P Jones - Rufus Parnell took to Indy like he was born to do it. Won in '63 ahead of Clark in controversial circumstances.
5. Jim Rathmann - won arguably the best Indy 500 ever in 1960 in the 'Ken-Paul' - a story worthy of a film...
6. Jim Bryan - winner in '58 - hard man who was a racer's racer
7. Pat Flaherty - '56 winner
8. Bob Sweikert - won in '55, 6th in '56 and then killed just when he might have been on the verge of greatness
9. Sam Hanks - won in '57 in the 'lay-down' then announced his retirement in victory lane - it had been a long road
10. ?

Rankings 1-9 comprise all the Roadster winners. So who was the best Roadster chaffeur never to win?

For me there are three immediate contenders - in no order:

Tony Bettenhausen, Eddie Sachs and Dick Rathmann. But ther eare others - HEAPS in fact...

Just love the shape and muscle look of these period cars.

Jim Hurtibise is another serious contender for the top 10

Pics ( mostly from 1959) photographers unknown

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That's an interesting front row from '59 - #3 is the pole car of Johnny Thompson - a Lesovsky which was a 'left hand drive' Roadster.

In the middle is Eddie Sachs in a Kuzma - Kuzmas were always there or thereabouts but a Kuzma Roadster never won the 500.

On the outside is Jim Rathmann in an upright Watson - all three are Offy powered...in 1959 all 33 starters were , the only exception being that one was a supercharged 168 c.i. (in '55 and '60 every starter was a normally aspirated Offy)

The V8 Novis were the only real opposition but the best finish for one of these was 4th in '57.

The red #82 has got me stumped - any #82 Roadster I can find that started were blue and white/silver..

If its any help the #82 in post#21 would appear to have a Chev SB V8 in it, or at least a V8 with similar porting sequence- pairs of inlets & paired center exhausts.

#82 SanDiego Steel (AACA 127) Chenowth Chevy 1961 First 'production' chevy V8 to attempt to qualify for the Indy 500, I believe by Mike McGill
Currently owned and shared with others by Dave Schleppi)

Thanks Bruce - no Chev powered Roadster ever qualified for the 500, but it sure is a beauty

Footage of the Chenowth Chevy here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=T4nMNjOIRbA&NR=1

Indeed the key word is attempt, and I believe it was trying over a 3 year period.

Bruce.

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Originally Posted by Michael Clark

Thanks Bruce - no Chev powered Roadster ever qualified for the 500, but it sure is a beauty

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Great thread Michael. These are some of the most beautiful cars ever to race. My personal favourites are the streamliners, even though they achieved very little success. This is the magnificent Sumar Special, which was also tried without its beautiful streamliner body.

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Out of interest, when was the first time someone ran a mid-engined car at Indy? Much is made of the impact the Lotus 29 had there, and how the eventual success of Lotus ultimately brought about the end of the roadster, but Lotus first ran at Indy in 1963. Mickey Thompson entered three mid-engined cars for 1962, powered by 215ci Buick production car motors. But there must have been others before this?

Rounds Rocket in 1949? , mid engine & rear wheel drive, but in the modern era I think Brabham in a Cooper might have been first in 1961, 200 laps & 9th place. Having said that I have a nagging feeling that Ive read of a car with an offy before that.

Rounds Rocket. I also had a feeling that Harry Miller built a mid engine car in the late 30s. I'll have to do some digging.

Nice one Bry - that was 1949, and reasonably good looking. As compared with the 1939 Miller which got trashed in practice

Steve the Sumar Streamliner dates from '55 - that year the Belond Miracle Power Special streamliner made the cut - but sans the cockpit bubble.

As for mid engines - George Bailey made history in '39 when he qualified a Miller mid-engine - and what a simple piece of kit: supercharged and four wheel drive. It qualified 6th but was out after 47 laps.

George Barringer's Tucker Torpedo ran in '46, as did Paul Russo's Fageol Twin Coach Special - it had twin supercharged Offys - the front engine drove the rear wheeels and the rear engine drove the front. It qual'd second but was the first retirement.

Al Miller drove the Preston Tucker thing in '47 and after that, another rear/mid-engined car (because most front engined cars are also 'mid-engined'...I guess) didn't qualify until 1961 when Jack Brabham and the Cooper team arrived.

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Originally Posted by Bruce302

#82 SanDiego Steel (AACA 127) Chenowth Chevy 1961 First 'production' chevy V8 to attempt to qualify for the Indy 500, I believe by Mike McGill
Currently owned and shared with others by Dave Schleppi)

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There were two Chevy V8-engined entries at Indy in 1961, and as has been said, neither qualified.

http://s6.postimg.org/hu0u7zj75/Car_...th_Chev_V8.jpg




Floyd Clymer's Yearbook said : "Mike Magill ..(didn't take the flag).. in the Chuck Chenowth Chevy, one of the two entered. They had been having a lot of trouble with the beautiful little car and even (with) the talents of Mickey Thompson in the last few days (of qualifying) they can't seem to get the oil problems solved."

http://s6.postimg.org/mtyafxott/61_I...hevy_V8_NQ.jpg

Not sure if the Robert Peterson car ran, there is no indication of who the driver might have been.

Stu

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Originally Posted by Steve Holmes

Great thread Michael. These are some of the most beautiful cars ever to race. My personal favourites are the streamliners, even though they achieved very little success. This is the magnificent Sumar Special, which was also tried without its beautiful streamliner body.

Attachment 17633

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Looks like a Lister at the front! What year is the photo from?

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Originally Posted by Kwaussie

Looks like a Lister at the front! What year is the photo from?

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If you "hover" over the photo, it says 1955 Sumar Special. Car in background looks mid-50's. If it is 1955, it's a very nice body for the time.

Stu

Thanks Stu, very nice shape.
Would be great if it is still around, enclosed cockpit etc!

Yup - '55. Underneath is a Kurtis with the inevitable Offy. The car was naked when it qualified 17th and came home 9th.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kwaussie

Looks like a Lister at the front!

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My first thought too! I am so glad I grew up in an era where both front and rear engines were the norm, even though the only rear engined ones initially were the 500cc cars.

Overall, I suppose I do prefer the look of the front engines cars, but I also have a soft spot for all the 1961-66 F1 1.5 litre cars.