Talking to someone this week about this,who said it goes on in all classes out there.
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Talking to someone this week about this,who said it goes on in all classes out there.
no sutch thing as cheating, there is only getting caught. a nascar expression i think. and one I follow
Well, Nascar would know. It was said years ago that there's enough rejected stuff left over after Nascar tech inspection to build another car. The main thing is, if you cheat and get caught, you've gotta go hands-up and no complaining.
While ever there's racing, there will always be cheating...
Funniest story I heard about that "rogue of the rules", Tom Walkinshaw. One of the team drivers brought his Group C Jaguar XJR into the pits at the end of pre race qualifying at Le mans in 1987. Rival teams had been monitoring how many laps the car seemed to be able to do on a (rules controlled) tank of fuel. Before the qualifying session, Tom had told his drivers that when they finished their sessions, that they must press THE button that had appeared, unlabelled, behind the race seat. He didn't tell them what THE button was for.
Tom: "Did you press THE button?"
Driver, getting out of the car: "You mean 'THE' button that you told me about?"
Tom: "Yes, I do mean THAT f****** button, did you press it or not?"
Driver (knowing exactly what Tom meant, and having no idea what THE button did, but winding Tom up anyway: "Yes, Tom, I did press the button, twice to make sure."
Tom: "Twice? Why bloody twice? I said once." Tom presses his head into the car and fiddles about behind the race seat.
What we were told (but we were all slightly worse for wear at the time) was that Tom had fitted a small electric pump and ram that squashed into the bag tank and reduced its apparent volume in case there was a formal objection to the scrutineers about the possible size of the tanks.
All rumour of course....
A quote attributed to Parnelli......
All those behind me are very fast.....all those in front of me are cheating
Define what you consider cheating, one mans creative engineering or such like can be anothers rule breaker.
I remember when I got involved in building HQ's I sent off a long fax list of questions to the organisations of stuff I was considering, reply came back, No,No,No, fair enough, then ended up @ Manfield for final & stood in the scruitineer shed & watched teardown of top three cars, all three had most of the mods / changes I had sought approval for & passed with flying colours, when I asked the gent who had knocked me back what was going on he looked somewhat uneasy!!!
Similar stuff has dogged the 'old' NZV8's ( 302 Ford & 305 Holdens ), have you read the rules in engine specs, no limit on amount off top of block, no dimension for compression height, no limit to amount machined off intake manifold, & yet get 5 thou oversize on a valve or seat & your out...
Biggest problem in the past was who took responsibility- scrutineer before racing, race organizer afterward.
If rules are there, someone must examine and enforce. No friends wanted for this job.
Cant complain on HMC rules- no title at stake , not worthwhile cheating.
On two of them, yes, but it wouldnt be fair to name two & not the other ( the car I had been involved with was 4th ), my point was that the 'rules' were not being administered in a fair & equal fashion. You still have not defined cheating for me:). One of the reasons given for why I ended up as a tech officer for HQ's in the SI for a while was a couple of 'good old boys' felt I was a bit too creative!, funny thing was I was thinking of them in the same way only worser!!:)
With regard to Johns post, OSCA in its early non-spaceframed formatt had very few if any problems with regard to rules compliance, any who got too far away from the envelope seemed to get brought into line without any great drama, yet there were trophys & series points up for grabs.
If HMC has no title & therefore no need to win, why are so many owners building better motors , modifying suspension etc to try & be more competitive?
i have never been caught. nuff said
i have never been caught. nuff said
sorry reply to post#4
No such thing as cheating;
Can be covered in many ways;
Known as interpretation
Known as 'bending the rules'
known as 'he who bends the most, goes the fastest'
Known as 'I bought it like that'
Known as 'I didn't know that was there'
Known as 'when did that rule change'
This is tongue in cheek
Interesting topic,i always remember the top place getters in the 1967 Wills 6 Hour being stripped down after the event,everyone had a fully port and polished head,the excuse was ,rules said you could balance engine parts and all they did was balance the combustion and exhaust chambers.If they had chucked them out there would have had to have gone down to 4th 5th and 6th place !!!!!
Cheating is such a vulgar word.....the thing is, someone or ones have to interpate the rules, and sometimes the official black or white colour is simply the wrong shade....lol :-)
Back to front pistons....May not have been illegal
It happenned in GTHO Ph3 engines in 71
Section from Ford memo on the QC engines dated 8/4/71 (This is prior to the HO3 being released in May)....
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...psb746e6f5.jpg
No, adrenaline is brown...
Come on, everyone is deadly serious on here.
Some thought I bent the rules once, but it was just interpretation, (there's not mine of course). I still have those 'springs' hanging on the wall.
So would putting the chassis of a car inside the body instead of underneath, or fitting a 1500cc Cortina 5 bearing crank into a 109e 3 bearing block be considered cheating or just getting creative?:) Funny how the guys with non de plumes cant take anything seriously, now whats a Buckler?
Jac Mac, yes you have been that forever, I am just an Old Fart but nom de plume or just being honest?
I presume that a good South of the Mainland like you is tongue in cheek about Bucklers as there were several from the town on your neck of the woods, and not too long before your time. Kelvin Brown did exactly that crank into block thing you mention(in his Tahuna Beach Ford 8), only rule was capacity class. Is that "cheating"? Is it possible to "cheat" with an allcomer? :)
A couple of great quotes.
One by Douglas Bader (WW2 Fighter Pilot)
"Rules are for the guidance of wise men & the obedience of fools"
Unknown
"May the best cheat win"
Another funny little story I heard of Harry Firth (the king of bending rules to breaking point) from the 70's after he left Ford & went to HDT. He put in a complaint about illegal parts being used on the falcons. When he was questioned about how he would know about those parts. He replied I put them on!"
Also in the days of the Cortina GT, to qualify the cars to be production cars all parts had to be listed in the factory parts catalogue & available in the local dealer. So Harry would re write the Ford parts catalogue & make a few available to certain people.
A couple of days before the race a crate would arrive at the local ford dealers that no one but Harry was allowed to open. If the scrutineers questioned the parts used on his car, he would pull out his special parts catalogue & then take them down to the dealer & crack open the crate showing that the parts were available at the Ford dealer. Not cheating but cutting it very close.
OK, at the Glenvale 200 in 1973 Jim Richards rolled up in the Norris Miles GTHO (A C Gill menswear) and was lapping 4 seconds faster than Leo Leonards Charger- he was lapping in 64 secs. He was allowed to run in production race. Was that cheating, or is it the fault of the scrutineers and organisers for accepting it? it was described as ... looking more like a Bank of Wales car than standard production .Also was s comment- cars were no more standard than OSCA cars.
Ellis- I dont know, but I do know that Allan Moffat told the world that Leo Leonard had the fastest Charger in the world after it dusted his GTHO at Wigram.
.There was a time in the race when Leo was putting up faster times than Richards, but then he pulled out
.In 72 it apparently was really wet. Jim Richards was driving Escort 1300 GT came 13th
My point is only- when there are no rule or clearly defined rules ,there is no cheating.
That is why standard production and production racing then was so hard to police-look at those running racing tyres in these races- Francivic did at Wigram in his GTHO- the organizers allowed him
I remember hearing the comment made at a B & H race "if you win it drive it into the rubbish tip at the end of the back straight on your warm down lap".
You can hardly blame anyone for getting creative in car racing in NZ, virtually all 'Factory Or Factory assisted ' saloons have mods that many consider outside the envelope, a few examples, The fahey escort & capri, torsion bar rear suspension & coil over rear suspension, but with the original leaf spring still there,only in plastic/nylon leaf material, Mustangs with relocated wishbones, front suspension towers, rear axles & wheel arches shifted, dual firewalls on factory rally cars. You can hardly blame the locals when examples like that were being brought into the country. Those examples were only the tip of the iceberg. Got to hand it to you Custaxi 50, so if Robbie did it it must be all right?:)