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I'm sure Allen Brown's oldracingcars.com site is well known among you all here...
He has a mystery with the Cooper T58 originally raced by Jack Brabham in 1961 with the first of the Climax FWMVs in it.
It might help if he can see some pics of Jim Palmer's various Cooper mounts for the '62 and '63 seasons.
I'm sure there are pics around, probably already posted on a thread here somewhere, can we bring them together so the mystery might be solved please?
Ray,
Did Jim Palmer really have a T 58 ?
I remember him in a T53 and a T 55 plus various Lotus race cars.
Attachment 48791
Jack Brabham - Cooper Car Company - Cooper T58 FI-11-61/Climax Monza,1961 #F1 #Formula1
Ken H.
Ray, Best wishes for 2018.
Ken, I don't think Ray is suggesting that but a question about Cooper's T58 has arisen on The Nostalgia Forum.
Jim raced the Bowmaker Cooper T55 in early 1963 - indeed racing it initially on his 21st birthday in the NZGP (the first at Pukekohe) and although the car was offered to the Palmers, the decision was made to buy the Hyslop T53 because it was a known quantity.
Whoops,
Perhaps I should take the time to read the question properly !
Here are 2 photos of Jim Palmer at Mount Maunganui. Dec. 1963. (One photo thanks to Milan Fistonic. )
Attachment 48792
Attachment 48793
(Ken H )
Was he leading Matich or being lapped, probably the later.Quote:
Originally Posted by khyndart in CA
Terry,
I think you will find the answer here at this site. Jim was probably looking hard in the mirrors !
https://primotipo.com/tag/jim-palmer/
KH
Palmer led at the start but was passed by Shelly before the end of lap one. Matich was third at that stage. Palmer re-took the lead on lap two before Matich moved ahead of Palmer and Shelly on lap three. On lap eight Matich had a four-second lead over Palmer but retired soon after.
I should have made it clear that this was the Mount Maunganui meeting in December 1963 when Palmer was using the ex-Hyslop car. I was answering Terry's question in post 5.
That should answer Terry S's question.
What about the car Palmer drove in the International races of early 1963?
Probably not the answer Terry was expecting!Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Clark
Think it was the Bowmaker car T55 FPF F1/2/61Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Bell
Allen points out that there were no 'T55' or 'T58' designations...
He also says this of the Bowmaker-owned F1/2/61:Quote:
Firstly, as background, it's important to remember that the term "T58" was not used at the time. Cooper only invented their "T" number system in 1963, so the T58 was just the V8 Climax prototype to reporters in 1961 and 1962.
So that car was already with Davison in '62.Quote:
One clue may be that Parnell had a spare Cooper for the 1963 'Tasman' races two months later. It's not obvious what that was, as Parnell had sold or wrecked all three cars they had taken out to the antipodes in 1962 (F1-1-61 to South Africa. F1-2-61 to Lex Davison and F1-4-61 wrecked by Salvadori). Could it be they took the T58 as their spare and that was the car raced by Jim Palmer? Photographs of Palmer's would be really useful.
Ray,
Is this site of any use to Allen ?
https://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/...ooper-t55.aspx
Ken H
Thanks, Ken...
I doubt that there's anything there that's new to Allen as he's most diligent in searching out cars' histories. That site does nothing to reveal where the car is now or what path it took, which is Allen's quest.
Already we see a potential clash of information, both Davison and Bowmaker owning F1/2/61 during 1962. Unless Kwaussie has the number wrong, this could well be a case of duplicate chassis numbers being used to confuse certain authorities and it could well be a clue to the life path of the T58.
I recall this was only the second meeting for Matich in the Brabham.Quote:
Originally Posted by khyndart in CA
It arrived in Melbourne by ship, was trailered to Sydney, and given some practice laps at Warwick Farm short circuit.
Shortly after it was in its first race meeting at Warwick Farm on December 1, 1963. This race was the Hordern Trophy.
Matich and Stillwell were dicing for the lead when at half distance they tangled and both went off. Stillwell recovered to finish 4th.
Matich then shipped the car to NZ for the coming 1964 Tasman Series. He entered this race as a warm up.
PS isn't it nice to have a genuine historic thread rather than the fluffy stuff that plagues this forum.......
There is a small photo of Jim Palmer in this link - http://www.sergent.com.au/motor/1963.html
Ray,
In his book "Can-Am Challenger" Peter Bryant writes about his early career as a race team mechanic working for Reg Parnell.
On page # 117 he states regarding the first Grand Prix at Pukekohe in Jan. 1963.
" Reg Parnell had brought over one of last year's (1962 NZGP ) Tasman Coopers as a spare car and ended up loaning it to a young Kiwi named Jim Palmer."
So that would mean that the Jim Palmer car at the 1963 NZGP would have been a Cooper T 53.
But which one ? F1/1/61,(Surtees) F1/4/61,(Salvadori ) F1/2/61 (Lex Davison) or was there another Yeoman Credit car ?
Attachment 48861
Jim Palmer. Pukekohe. Jan. 1963.
(Ken H )
Here is a scrapbook photo of John Surtees talking to Stirling Moss in dry weather at Ardmore in Jan. 1962.
John is in his Yeoman Credit Racing Team Cooper T53 F1/1/61. # 1
Attachment 48870
In April 1961 John Surtees drove this rare model Cooper T53/ VR Climax for a brief period at the Syracuse Grand Prix.
(Note the almost Lola type body styling.)
Attachment 48871
(Ken H)
According to Sergent's records Palmer droveQuote:
Originally Posted by khyndart in CA
Cooper Climax T55 chassis F1-2-61 in 1963 NZ GP and 1963 Levin International
Cooper Climax T53 chassis F2-13-58 in 1964 Tasman Series (including Australia)
We know that T53 'F2-13-58' is nonsense - Angus Hyslop took a car carrying that chassis plate to the UK and returned with a T53 that, for reasons of convenience, retained that plate.
A T53 could hardly have been built in 1958 - however Vercoe's book refers to the car having been 'low-lined' by Cooper...not the work of a moment. David McKinney was the most fastidious chassis number noter I have ever encountered. If the 'T55' wasn't 'F1-2-61', then I'd be amazed if he hadn't noticed it.
I am catching up with Jim in a few days - I'll ask him what he can recall.