yes 928 that is the plan in the process of removing the running gear now should be down to a bare frame in a week, I have to fit it in around work 12 hour shifts mean limited garage time during the week. Cheers
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yes 928 that is the plan in the process of removing the running gear now should be down to a bare frame in a week, I have to fit it in around work 12 hour shifts mean limited garage time during the week. Cheers
the Herald track is only 1/2 inch different so should be good Cheers
Today I removed the engine and gearbox I thought this would be an easy job but because of the limited room around the rear of the engine and gearbox a lot of stuff had to be removed before I could get at the mounts and bolts , the headers had to be removed along with the Weber carbs these where bolted on to the head with cap screws but some of them had limited space to get a key into the hex so I had to cut a key down to fit and removing the generator let me get a hand up behind the headers [only just] I could only get a few degrees of movement at a time so this was a long process.
The engine had to be parted from the gearbox to come out of the hole due to the frame tubes being in the way and then I lifted the gearbox out by hand, the gearbox mount was broken and the engine mounts had sagged with age [havent we all] so the engine will sit a little higher with the new mounts this will help with the ground clearance as the sump was only 1 inch from the floor because the front suspension had sagged and the rear top spring cushions had disintegrated as well.
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I had a chance to visit an old guy that lives here in Waimate that has a collection of Triumphs rusting away in a paddock so that I could take measurements of all the components of the front suspension still in the car this will help me in fitting the new Herald parts. I now have enough measurements across the car from different points on the turrets that I will be able to run bars from turret to turret to get them square in relation to each other and then I will be able to figure out how to mount them.
Removing the engine and gearbox let me get a good look at the frame tubes and to my surprise every thing looks in good condition from just behind the front suspension all the way to the back of the car so other than adding a few extra tubes and some gussets for strength some sanding and paint will suffice . The tubes around the front suspension and the steering rack mounts have been chopped, repaired and changed over the cars life and will get reworked during the fitting of the new suspension and the radiator and nose cone will be remounted to suit.Attachment 71800
Good work Bruce, and your Project has a good mate in the garage - a C ..
Cheers
Roger
Hi Roger the strip down is going quite well, I'm good at pulling things to bits but putting them back together is a different story but it will all come together in the end. trying not to change too much but that front suspension was fighting its self and must have felt like riding a three legged horse in a corner. but the rest of the car seems to be pretty good so mostly just a freshen up and some small mods for safety's sake. I don't want it to look too pretty as a lot of old race cars are shinier than when they were built.
The Corvette is our weekend and trip car I rebuilt the suspension and did some small upgrades last year to keep myself occupied in the shed during Covid she will crank up to 150MPH and goes round corners like a champ but the missus says no racing in it she thinks its too fast, I'm too old and shes the one that has to wash my undies...
Today's job has been temporarily tying the front suspension turrets together as a unit to enable me to work out how to mount it into the frame, I used some measurements from a Herald that I had access to here in Waimate and I found a factory chassis drawing on line with the dimensions I needed to set them up in relation to one another. Some 10mm threaded rod inside alloy tube fitted through the chassis mounting bolt holes gave me the right width at the bottom and some alloy channel with some holes drilled through fitted to the top A arm bushing bolts set the top width. I should be able to work out the best way to mount them by fitting the whole unit into the frame and measuring them in relation to one another.
I have decided how much of the old frame tubes around the front suspension will need to be removed to fit the new parts so time to start cutting, the bits I am removing had been repaired, modified and poorly welded at some stage in the cars life and the suspension was misaligned and not true in its range of motion, So the new setup should be an improvement and this coupled with the increase in braking response with the disk brakes should help with control in the twisty bits.
The front track will be almost the same width and have the same ride height, but with sorter and heaver springs and better top spring/shock mounts and the ability to adjust the ride height with spacers.
The turrets when fitted to the Heralds and Spitfires are only bolted to the frame at the bottom but I will brace them from the top frame rail as well to increase the stiffness and I will need to figure out how to put some form of support at the bottom of the turrets to bolt the bottom A arms to. so on with the thinking cap.Attachment 71819Attachment 71820Attachment 71821Attachment 71822Attachment 71823Attachment 71824
Time to start stripping the rest of the car down, Removal of the fuel tank and battery has allowed me to get a decent look at the rear suspension and diff, the setup is pretty standard for an early track car long parallel 4 bars with adjustable rod ends with mounts welded to the Standard 10 axle housings, coil springs and shocks and a panhard bar. all good stuff and with some new bushings and shocks and some paint it should be good to go.
I will also check the brakes and redo whats needed, the standard light 3/8 wheel studs have already been replaced with longer and thicker ones so that will save me a job as I have already ordered Land Rover Freelander M12x1.5 studs for the front hubs, this is a fairly common modification when fitting wider wheels on early Heralds and Spitfires as the stud shank size is the same and they press right into the hubs.
The small battery will be relocated to what would have been the passengers foot well if the car had 2 seats as I don't like the idea of having it so close to the fuel tank.
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It looks like it has Herald front shocks and springs on the rear...
Could be I will have them out today so we will see. Cheers
The first job for today is to remove the rear suspension components and the diff, the 4 bars are in good condition straight and true the rod ends are a little tight but I will grease them up and see if any will need to be replaced, the shocks are in poor condition so they will need to be replaced I should be able to adapt Triumph Herald front shocks and bushings to keep things simple. the springs will need a good sand and a coat of paint, the panhard bar is also in good condition so will be reused once painted.
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The wiring has all been removed and will get redone and the gauges will be replaced with a matching set of Smiths style black face ones just a rev counter and Amp, Water temp, and Oil pressure gauges.
Removal of the seat was a simple task as it was only held in with one self tapping screw, its hard to believe you could once get away with that, A new seat will be fitted with some proper adjustable mounts so I will need to see what the new requirements are for this and if I will need to modify the frame to suit.
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On with the fun, Removal of all the inner alloy panels is the next thing on the list, drilling out the rivets is harder than you would think as some drill out fine and some rivets just start spinning so with a mix of drilling, chiseling and sanding the heads off the panels are all out of the car.
This has revealed just how elaborate the frame is with a lot of triangulation of the tubes, some one has put a lot of thought into this. but I will add a few tubes and gussets where needed.
When compared to an early Lotus or Mallock chassis frame it appears to be quite different and although it looks like a lot of steel tube the use of 3/4 inch thin wall has made it reasonably strong and light.
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Some may think I am going into too much detail on this thread but a lot of people don't get the chance to see the insides and dirty bits of these old Specials and if any part of this rebuild story is of any help to some one looking to rescue an old race car then that is enough for me.
I am not a mechanic or an engineer and I am equipped only with simple tools in a small cluttered home garage but luckily aided with the help of a few friends,
So I will make a few mistakes along the way and march to my own drum on a few occasions but there is an old saying '' If it don't get you dirty its not yours'' and in the end the journey can be as much fun as the destination.
Some of us, me for one, are enjoying reading about your efforts. The one thing I did notice was the angle of the panhard rod but i wonder if that is because the diff is at full droop.
Thanks for that Allan yes you are correct the angle changed due to the diff not being supported , the panhard angle when the car was sitting on its wheels still looked a little steep but due to its length and the fact that the suspension movement is minimal I don't think it is having an adverse effect on handling.
I did jump up and down on the rear of the car before I started stripping it down and the frame did not move unduly in relation to the wheels. [ high tec chassis tuning for dummies Ha Ha]
A good day in the shed today out with the drill and chisel extracting rivets,rivets and more rivets but at last the remaining body panels are off the car. the bottoms of the large panels had been folded under and wrapped around the bottom frame rails and have sustained a lot of damage over the years.
My plan has always been to keep as many of the outer panels as possible, I could easily reskin the whole car as the panels have simple curves but I like the patina that the car has and I do not want the car to look like it was built yesterday, Too many old race cars have been restored to better than new condition and that's fine if you want an art piece or investment. In saying that I should point out that I have the original 1950s build boot lid of the Lycoming Special hanging on the wall of my dining room but that car is an exception as the car is still racing and in the thick of it at most meetings.
So I will try to keep all the panels above the second rail from the bottom this will be a good compromise and will make things easier for me as all the inner floor panels had been poorly fitted on the inside of the frame and this exposed the bottom tubes to the elements and road debris so I will fit an alloy belly pan under the frame and have it meet the top panels at the second rail. This would have been common at the time the car was built on factory or series built race cars. Being able to see the frame rails inside the car will give it a period look as well.
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Great work B J B .. and again the " C " is in the background.
When taken apart the body panels look very simple.
Cheers
Roger
https://www.automotobookshop.com.au/...econd-edition/ loving this thread btw
and a signed copy https://biblio.com.au/book/high-spee...0/d/1409609751
My Great Nephew has this one ...
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Hi Roger they are very simple and a bit tatty but too good to replace, It dawned on me when I looked at the photos I posted how much it looks like an unmade Airfix model kit, its got me worried as I could never do one well I would just end up with bits missing and my fingers stuck together.
Thanks for that Bry but book purchase's are on the back burner all my spare cash is going into parts for the car as I am a man of limited means and expensive tastes.
With the frame naked I have had a chance to run a tape over it to check for squareness and it is mostly good except the front right hand corner was kicked up a little but before I dropped it down onto the floor I thought I would straighten a bent cross tube second from the front at the top, it looks like because there are no real jacking points under the car someone has used a lifter hooked to the middle of the tube to lift the car for some reason. A few taps with a jewelers tool [12 pound ] and it was straight again and that also fixed the kick up at the front corner easy as that. I will be adding some tubes into the front to help hang the new suspension parts so that should add some much needed strength into that area.
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I've never seen a Clubman-style frame with so many tubes and so little triangulation...
Well, maybe I've seen worse on the triangulation front.
I tend to agree. The frame looks like it wasn't drawn, it just happened. Two diagonals in a bay where one thoughtfully placed would do.
Not denigrating the effort for a minute. It's very typical of it's period.
One question - what's the welding ? TIG or gas ?
How long has TIG been around?
I love taking things apart. Zero engineering expertise putting things back with modifications.
Hi Ray I Know what you mean but surprisingly strong from the firewall back, I have had no experience with tube frames mainly hot rod ladder frame stuff so I am doing some research, I am lucky that I have an extensive library of older motor racing history and racing and sports car chassis design and development books from the 50s and 60s so I am slowly getting my head around the issues I am facing and have started to plan some small improvements. But I am always open to suggestions I know a lot of people on this site have many years of experience doing this stuff so any constructive comments are welcome.
Hi GregT yes there are a few too many tubes in places buy still surprisingly light I can lift it up at either end with one hand with little effort and it has lasted this long without any major twisting or sagging so it can't be all bad. the welding looks to be mainly gas but with some TIG as well for the repairs. I am not a confident welder so I will do all the donkey work and then a friend who is a tradesman welder will do the hot stuff.
Hi ERC that sums me up too but you get points for giving it a go and I am learning all the time, I am running out of sticking plasters and hand wash. HAHA
Well, that does help to date it a little. TIG was available in ChCh from the 50's - there were a couple of specialist welders with the gear. If it had been MIG welded IMO that would have dated it as reasonably late work.
Gas of course has been around for years - but fusion welded gas is actually quite rare I'm told, most fabricators preferring bronze welding or refining it by using nickel bronze.
My personal preference based on 30 plus years of building roadrace motorcycle frames is bronze welding as I find distortion to be much less.
Carry on.
Today I turned the frame upside down to deal with the last of the rivets drilling them out or punching them thru this has left a lot of holes that will be plugged with weld and dressed later before painting.
The biggest surprise of the day is that the tubes that make up the floor of the frame have only been welded from the top with all the bottoms of the joints left unwelded, I guess they just forgot to flip it over to finish them when the frame was first built, none of the joints have fatigued or broken over the years and there is very little flex, the photos show the gaps, it will all be welded up when the rest of the frame is done. I think I might be making it sound like the frame is poorly built but I think for a home built of that era it is suprisingly strong and has lasted well. everything from the firewall back will stay the same except for adding a few tubes to support the new belly pan under the drivers feet.
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Not having a chassis jig to measure and square up the frame the best I can do is get it on a flat surface and have at it with string lines, rulers and tape measure, I found the flattest part of my garage floor and laid down a thick sheet of MDF marked with a center line. I have lined up and fixed the rear bulkhead of the frame to the back edge of the sheet with the middle of the crossmember on the center line the frame sits flat on the MDF sheet all the bottom cross members are parallel and the side frame rails at the firewall are only 5mm off center so that is good enough for me, But the rails forward of the firewall are cranked over to the right quite a bit as just over 1 meter forward of the firewall the side rails are 30mm off center, This does not seem to be as a result of accident damage as the front top crossmember is still parallel to the firewall and the floor, it looks more like the original builder got the measurements a little wrong.
This explains why the front suspension had a lot of shims on one side and the centers of the front and rear hubs on each side of the car were 15mm different.
This will all be addressed when I redo the way the tubes run at the front to add in some more triangulation,strength and fit the new suspension components.
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hi,
just remember the old henry ford expression "simplicate and add lightness". best way of making any car faster.
Good advice 928 I think the car will be a little lighter when I am finished even though I am having to add some tubes around the front end as some of the bits I have cut out that I thought was tube was solid bar and the steering rack mounts were flat steel bar the new rack will mount to the suspension towers to save using brackets.
I bought a pair of cheap of bathroom scales fron the big red shed so i could keep track of weight.
I'm doing the same
so now I have the frame mounted to a sheet of MDF I can start to get some of the poorly placed tubes forward of the firewall removed and to make sure I don't place any of the new tubes in the wrong position I have placed the engine back in with new engine mounts the aim is to get the bottom of the sump as low as I can but without it being any lower than the bottom of the frame.
A lot of the tubes around the bottom of the engine have been removed as they did not add much strength and the frame in front of the suspension that hung the radiator and nose cone has also been removed. they will be replaced with a more simple but stronger arrangement that should be a little lighter and tidier.
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I have marked the MDF sheet with a center line and added lines across the sheet spaced at 100mm and by using these as a guide and measuring from the edges of the sheet I can make sure the frame is square using rulers and a large square, It may be a little crude but is effective enough for the job in hand, I am lucky that the bottom of the frame is flat so I don't have to deal with uneven heights while taking measurements.
To keep the frame steady I have screwed blocks of wood onto the MDF hard against the tubes this holds it in place quite well and they can be adjusted if need be latter, one of the bottom crossmember's has some rust inside the tube so that will need to be replaced before I can start adding in the new tubes.
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