NZ Historic Racing Saloons Group

[Steve Holmes]

OK, before anyone gets excited, NO, I am not looking to form a new historic motor racing category. Way too much of my time is already taken up with doing stuff that I don't get paid for without tacking on another volunteer role. This is purely out of interest, curiosity, and perhaps something I'd like to see happen one day, should someone be brave (crazy?) enough to step up and try and take this on. I really just want to stimulate some discussion.

I've noticed lately there is an increase in the number of old racing saloon cars, with history from the 1960s and/or 1970s, that are being restored and/or preserved and brought out to be enjoyed again in historic racing. Typically, saloon car racing is a little late on the scene compared to single seater and sports car racing, in which old cars with history are generating a lot of interest, being restored, and raced once more. With single seaters, in historic racing they usually only race against other single seaters with history. In saloon car racing, old cars with history are often mixed in with newly built cars specifically created for historic racing.

However, are there now enough old historic racing saloons in NZ that they could have their own race at a premier NZ racing event? A cut-off date would be required. Perhaps the end of 1973, as that seem to be around the time saloon cars started to race on slick tyres, and were designed around slick tyres. Its also the stage at which 'Sports Sedan' type cars began appearing, which quickly raised the performance bar.

So, lets say there was a cut-off date of the end of the 1973 NZ racing season. The cars eligible to race would have had to have raced (not necessarily in NZ) at some stage prior to that 1973 cut-off date. The category they may have raced in could be anything from Allcomers, to Group 2, to Group 5, etc. But they must have had a saloon car competition career prior to that 1973 cut-off date. Furthermore, they must now be presented as they were in period, at one specific time in their period, prior to that 1973 cut-off date. Many cars were raced up to and beyond 1973, and some even into the 1980s, and were evolved to keep pace with modern changes. These cars wouldn't be eligible, unless returned to their pre-1973 guise. Also, they must be fitted with either period correct cross-ply tyres, or DOT radials. No slicks.

The racing itself is purely for fun, for the entertainment of car owners and punters. No prizes for winners. Just the enjoyment of racing old cars with history.

So, just for fun, why don't we establish a role-call of existing cars that are either currently racing, or being restored to race, that fit this set of requirements. Replica's would be eligible, but only on the proviso the original car no longer exists, and the replica is an exact copy of the original.

Here are some I have thought of:

Jim Richards Willment Racing Escort
Paul Fahey Lotus Anglia Allcomer
Red Dawson Shelby Mustang
Ivan Segedin Mustang
Rod Coppins Pontiac Firebird
Jennings Special
Rod Coppins Zephyr Corvette (replica)
Ron Sylvester Chevy coupe
Rod Collingwood AMCO Mini Cooper
Clyde Collins A40 Farina Allcomer (replica)
Peter Bennett Lotus A40 Farina Allcomer
Garth Souness Morrari (replica)
Dave Simpson Lotus Anglia Allcomer
Sidchrome Hilman Imp
Spinner Black HK Monaro
Neil Doyle Anglia Corvette
Barry Phillips Lotus Cortina
Frank Hamlin Minisprint
Joe Chamberlain/Dennis Marwood Camaro
Paul Fahey Allan Mann Escort
Jack Nazer Cossack Escort
Red Dawson Kensington Carpets Camaro

OK, theres 22 cars to kick things off. What have you guys got?

[AMCO72]

Steve....interesting thread. My guess is there are a lot of old ex racers out there but nowhere to race them.
However you are starting to lay down some rules!!!!! You say they are to be as they raced in the 60's and 70's up to about 73, which as far as I am concerned is a great cut-off date........BUT they cannot race on slicks, and yet I'll bet that most of these old war-horses raced on slicks in their day. So why this weird anti-slick thing on cars designed and raced with these tyres. Surely it is not a monetry thing.....all tyres are expensive.

We have exactly the Dunlop tyres that the Amco Mini raced on in it's two seasons and yet we would not be able to use them, but instead some thinly disguised slick, masquerading as a dot rated road tyre. Take a look at the tyres on the under 3 litre class cars at the festival and you will see what I mean.

Also, are old style roll cages allowed or do they all have to be up to present specs......I think Rod Grimwood has this problem.

Are we all going to 'race' together? There are some BIG differences in performance in that group already, from the Sidchrome Imp upwards, but we would much prefer to race with a group like this instead of the present under 3 litre class.

But hey..I'm just a negative bastard.........this is a great idea, I hope it grows.

[Steve Holmes]

I should also say, that list of cars above, most are already racing in historic events somewhere around NZ.

[crunch]

[QUOTE=AMCO72;25073]Also, are old style roll cages allowed or do they all have to be up to present specs......I think Rod Grimwood has this problem.

QUOTE]

If the car is the genuine article and is spec'd in period, then it would get a Schedule K COD. As long as proof can be shown that the cage is period then it fits under Sch AA and could run without modification. Not as hard as many people make out...

[Steve Holmes]

The Rodger Anderson Cambridge BMW 2002 would be another one that would fit.

[Spgeti]

It is a good idea Steve. I am staggered by reading the old programes on SFOS 2013. Where are all the Mini Cooper "S"s, the Lotus Cortinas etc. Have they all disappeared to the confines of garages never to be seen again or are they just to precious to bring out ?

[hilstwist]

The BOAC Fahey Mustang?

[Jac Mac]

The BOAC Fahey Mustang?

That is an awkward one as the car still exists in PDL electric blue form, which makes a case for dead nuts replicas of early forms of several cars that evolved or changed class over the years, there seems to be a number of knockers in & around motorsport classic circles that dont want this sort of thing to happen, but are quite happy to have the originals parade around in funeral procession style, but actually race or inadvertently bump into one another, heaven forbid [ or should it be welcome in!]

[Steve Holmes]

Its just a thought really Gerald, I'd personally love to see a field of old original cars all running together, even though they may not have all raced together in period. My reasoning for the non-slick thing would be that slicks were only just being introduced around the time of the cut-off period I gave, the vast majority of the cars on the list above would never have raced on slicks in period.

The performances of the cars listed above wouldn't be that vast, even the V8s would not be fast cars. Consider where the Segedin Mustang was when the Rat was driving it last year, or where the Dawson Mustang was at this years event in relation to your car. I'd hazard a guess your Mini would be one of the fastest cars in the field, with you at the wheel (assuming you haven't sold it?).

As for rollcages, well thats something quite outside the powers of anyone who creates a historic racing class. Anything to do with safety is governing body territory.

[John McKechnie]

Its just a thought really Gerald, I'd personally love to see a field of old original cars all running together, even though they may not have all raced together in period. My reasoning for the non-slick thing would be that slicks were only just being introduced around the time of the cut-off period I gave, the vast majority of the cars on the list above would never have raced on slicks in period.

The performances of the cars listed above wouldn't be that vast, even the V8s would not be fast cars. Consider where the Segedin Mustang was when the Rat was driving it last year, or where the Dawson Mustang was at this years event in relation to your car. I'd hazard a guess your Mini would be one of the fastest cars in the field, with you at the wheel (assuming you haven't sold it?).

As for rollcages, well thats something quite outside the powers of anyone who creates a historic racing class. Anything to do with safety is governing body territory.

Steve-I have started the ball rolling on this.I have been told to get pics of the car showing cage, results of the races, pref a log book.The cage on my can be done as original using modern material. Recommended to take to a specialist.They are not keen on bolt in cages.

[fullnoise68]

Steve, on paper it says `shit these would be good to watch' but in reality, as Gerald mentioned, the red tape, the politics, event organisers saying one thing and then doing the opposite, etc, would determine such a groups existance.
With HMC, the easiest option is to let the `actual' smaller cars, such as the Willment and Fahey Escorts, the Sidchrome Imp, Collingwoods Mini,etc, run with us, at selected meetings, because the rest apart from Bruces Firebird and Tonys Camaro,are as you say out on a limb at present.
This is why I think the potential to have two big `Period Historic' meetings a year, as in era/class correct such as the Allcomers you mentioned, is possible, and could happen if logic prevailed, once you`ve addressed the `arm band' brigade with a shotgun!

[Steve Holmes]

Steve, on paper it says `shit these would be good to watch' but in reality, as Gerald mentioned, the red tape, the politics, event organisers saying one thing and then doing the opposite, etc, would determine such a groups existance.
With HMC, the easiest option is to let the `actual' smaller cars, such as the Willment and Fahey Escorts, the Sidchrome Imp, Collingwoods Mini,etc, run with us, at selected meetings, because the rest apart from Bruces Firebird and Tonys Camaro,are as you say out on a limb at present.
This is why I think the potential to have two big `Period Historic' meetings a year, as in era/class correct such as the Allcomers you mentioned, is possible, and could happen if logic prevailed, once you`ve addressed the `arm band' brigade with a shotgun!

Yeah I know Steve, and it'll probably never happen, I don't know of anyone who'd want to take on such a headache of an idea. But it'd only be to get the cars all out together, no club, no series, none of that. Just a formation of old original cars that raced in period. Evan Munt managed to pull together a field of old original OSCA cars a couple of years ago for the 40th anniversary of OSCA.

Another one for the list: Alan Boyle Coke Viva

[AMCO72]

I have a sneaky suspision that the HMC boys dont really want us, the U3L, with them, and I fully agree. Although it was a stirring sight at the festival with all these cars mixed up, the fact of the matter is that it was a 'convenience' thing. I have no doubt in my mind that Dale and his boys will be able to field a full grid of proper Muscle cars next festival, or before.

Where does that leave the U3L brigade ?
Arthur Vowels is a bit worried that this class is not attracting many new entries, and I dont know what we can do to improve the situation. The theory is that spectators come to these events to watch. Maybe they race in another class now but see U3L as a better alternative and decide to have a go. You cant do anymore. If the racing grabs people they may be tempted to try it themselves.

But I think if it could be got off the ground as it were, the Historic saloon cars racing together would be magic. As you say a lot of these machines are already up and running, so is just a matter of getting them altogether.......yeh right!!!!!

By the way the 0-1000cc class were racing on Dunlop slicks for both the 70/71 season and the 71/72 season.
I refer you to the MSNZ manual no35 page 480 where it states clearly that a historic race car should compete on the rubber it was on in period.

The Amco Mini would be very happy tooling around with these guys. Howabout you also stipulate that the ORIGINAL driver/s do the driving!!!!!!!!!!!LoL

[Steve Holmes]

I have a sneaky suspision that the HMC boys dont really want us, the U3L, with them, and I fully agree. Although it was a stirring sight at the festival with all these cars mixed up, the fact of the matter is that it was a 'convenience' thing. I have no doubt in my mind that Dale and his boys will be able to field a full grid of proper Muscle cars next festival, or before.

Actually Gerald, HMC and U3 are a fantastic match for each other. The combination of the two groups is just that, bringing together two groups that compliment each other. All the cars are period correct, and they look amazing out on the track together. Perhaps eventually each will grow in car numbers to the point its not possible to race together at the high profile events, because there are simply too many cars. I reckon if you spoke to the HMC guys at the Denny Hulme event, almost all would be full of praise for the way the small car guys drove. And I think the same would be true of the small car guys. Remember, 40 years ago big cars and small cars all raced together. Nothing has changed, there is no reason why it can't still be the case.

I've been trying to get Arthur on this website to create a thread specific to the U3 group. More exposure is what is needed to help create enthusiasm and boost grids. The HMC thread has now had nearly 60,000 page views, and has been really helpful in building the profile of HMC, and it amazes me that other historic racing groups aren't doing likewise. It bonds competitors and educates people. Trouble is, by his own admission, Arthur is fairly technologically challenged, so this may take a while to achieve. But I'm happy to help him through it if it means helping the U3 group.

[ERC]

I've been trying to get Arthur on this website to create a thread specific to the U3 group. More exposure is what is needed to help create enthusiasm and boost grids. The HMC thread has now had nearly 60,000 page views, and has been really helpful in building the profile of HMC, and it amazes me that other historic racing groups aren't doing likewise. It bonds competitors and educates people. Trouble is, by his own admission, Arthur is fairly technologically challenged, so this may take a while to achieve. But I'm happy to help him through it if it means helping the U3 group.

As 95% of Athur's group are already running in the two ERC grids, (AES & Arrows) I am not sure what difference it would make. I started a thread for our group and publicised it on here, but even with 115 or so driver's registered, there is minimal response on here as presumably they are happy enough where they are and don't really have too much to say?

Steve, you do a great job of publicising HRC and between yourself and Dale, put out a lot of words each month, but is the intention to take drivers and cars out of the ERC group because our rules are a little more pragmatic than adhering to 100% period or T & C to get them into U3L?

I think not, as you don't seem to strike me as someone who would try to derail a proven series. For the U3L to create its own stand alone niche, it has to bring cars to the track that are not already racing. So far I can't think of a single U3L car that doesn't already have a regular place to run.

Over the years I have copped a lot of flack from relatively few people regarding our eligibility rules and can justify our/my stance on several grounds. The fact that we are close to T & C but not 100% is unfortunate but also totally justifiable.

I ask again. Can any meeting promoter afford to put on six grids of a few cars each and pay out $12,000 to run a 1 day meeting at HD? The answer is obvious but a few people are so totally wrapped up in the purity aspect that they ignore the realities.

Creating the U3L class to run at HRC meetings might well give a fair few drivers an additional 3 races, which they are doing, but if they had to pay full price for their grid space, I am pretty sure they'd opt for a series of meetings that are still chocolate fish based rather than running just two or three events a year. Or am I reading this all wrong?

Crunch is well aware of where T & C doesn't work for us and other like series, but creating an extra class just to appease those who believe that T & C in its present form and CoDs are the way forward is not going to bring cars out of the garages. It didn't in the previous Arrows Series (CoD essential) and it isn't happening now, even though publicity at the time was coming from MSNZ that this was the way forward.

Arthur himself has made the suggestion that we do not need the current cumbersome CoD 15 page system that tends to put people off, especially newcomers. Far better to have a simple declaration where anything non-standard is declared and can be easily audited.

You can go out today and pick up a roadworthy MGB GT for a song, but why the heck do you need to state the size of the clutch plate to get a CoD???? And who is ever going to check whether it has an 1800cc or a 1950cc engine? Does it matter, given that there is no level playing field?

The CoD system was intended to document and provide a provenance for an historic race car where that history and originality was deemed to be important.

Bringing out an historic race saloon or replica or even a saloon built out of period parts is all OK by me as currently they need a platform but you can't come out with six cars. Far better to have classes covering different levels, periods, capacities. They could just as easily pad out the HMC grid now, as a short term measure.

Without better paying grids then entry fees will rise. A 15 car grid covers the basic costs and puts something into the promoter's pocket as long as all drivers are paying a fair contribution and not doing double duty on one race fee. Where only one or two drivers are paying, it is a different story. Their grid is being subsidised by the other drivers.

The MGCC series is still in its infancy, but I can't guarantee a space on our programme after this year. Their club committee has elected to not join up with another marque club, so do we disband the ERC series so that the U3L series, the Alfas, MGs and the open BMW series have more members, thus leaving a fair few cars totally out in the cold, particulary Jaguars and the like and over 3 litre Porsches? After a total of 27 years, have we done our dash, or do we carry on with a class that is popular and successful as it is, with zero support from MSNZ, and minimal support from one or two other key areas?

I think the answer is pretty obvious but any proposed additional classes have to be justified and an open (Classic) race saloon class is.

[crunch]

, or do we carry on with a class that is popular and successful as it is, with zero support from MSNZ, and minimal support from one or two other key areas?

.

Hi Ray

Can I ask what you mean by zero support from MSNZ?

[John McKechnie]

Good to get the ball rolling on this Steve.However it may be a sticky one. Yes the cars are there, but who do the drivers want to share the track with. Keep them in their own group as a display and not combine with those outside this group. Keep them schedule K COD . Dont worry about the tyre debate, just get them out as they were or as they are now.

[Steve Holmes]

Good to get the ball rolling on this Steve.However it may be a sticky one. Yes the cars are there, but who do the drivers want to share the track with. Keep them in their own group as a display and not combine with those outside this group. Keep them schedule K COD . Dont worry about the tyre debate, just get them out as they were or as they are now.

Thats really up to the individual John. Do double duty if you want to, race both HMC and historic period saloons.

[fullnoise68]

Gerald, to add to my previous comments, and in regards to your `convenience' remark, 43 or 44 cars in our first race at the festival was just bullshit.That is why a select few such as the likes of your Mini -with you driving it - and the `actual' small cars of that era of NZ motorsport, such as the Willment Escort, are good to race with, so long as they are on the same enjoyment page. Sure with the interest in HMC and the projected growth of the class, we`ll be able to field 20 - 25 cars regularily which is a good grid in itself, and that will happen.
Glenn Allingham and I had some great real close racing on the second weekend of the festival in our Camaros, and we had little cars all over us in the corners, but those particular guys - apart from one???? - gave us room to manoeuvre, which was great.
The U3L is quite a mixed bag, with a lot of the cars in that group being able to run in many different catergories, whereas with HMC we`re trying to showcase a period correct big banger class, that if the response from the public at the two weekends of the festival is any indication, is what they want to see.

[AMCO72]

I think Alan Boyle would up to having a go behind the wheel of the Viva. He seems a sprightly sort of Gent. Had a long chat with him at the second weekend. We were sitting in the Mini and he said that the front passenger seat looked familiar. He had actually made a mould in the late 60's, and Rod was one of the racers who bought a pair for the Amco mini. We have the drivers seat as well but arent allowed to use it!!!!!!! Rules dont you know.

Isnt it amazing who you meet up with at these gatherings......far better than the driving.



fullnoise, a question.........who is ???????????