NZ Historic Racing Saloons Group

[Steve Holmes]

OK, before anyone gets excited, NO, I am not looking to form a new historic motor racing category. Way too much of my time is already taken up with doing stuff that I don't get paid for without tacking on another volunteer role. This is purely out of interest, curiosity, and perhaps something I'd like to see happen one day, should someone be brave (crazy?) enough to step up and try and take this on. I really just want to stimulate some discussion.

I've noticed lately there is an increase in the number of old racing saloon cars, with history from the 1960s and/or 1970s, that are being restored and/or preserved and brought out to be enjoyed again in historic racing. Typically, saloon car racing is a little late on the scene compared to single seater and sports car racing, in which old cars with history are generating a lot of interest, being restored, and raced once more. With single seaters, in historic racing they usually only race against other single seaters with history. In saloon car racing, old cars with history are often mixed in with newly built cars specifically created for historic racing.

However, are there now enough old historic racing saloons in NZ that they could have their own race at a premier NZ racing event? A cut-off date would be required. Perhaps the end of 1973, as that seem to be around the time saloon cars started to race on slick tyres, and were designed around slick tyres. Its also the stage at which 'Sports Sedan' type cars began appearing, which quickly raised the performance bar.

So, lets say there was a cut-off date of the end of the 1973 NZ racing season. The cars eligible to race would have had to have raced (not necessarily in NZ) at some stage prior to that 1973 cut-off date. The category they may have raced in could be anything from Allcomers, to Group 2, to Group 5, etc. But they must have had a saloon car competition career prior to that 1973 cut-off date. Furthermore, they must now be presented as they were in period, at one specific time in their period, prior to that 1973 cut-off date. Many cars were raced up to and beyond 1973, and some even into the 1980s, and were evolved to keep pace with modern changes. These cars wouldn't be eligible, unless returned to their pre-1973 guise. Also, they must be fitted with either period correct cross-ply tyres, or DOT radials. No slicks.

The racing itself is purely for fun, for the entertainment of car owners and punters. No prizes for winners. Just the enjoyment of racing old cars with history.

So, just for fun, why don't we establish a role-call of existing cars that are either currently racing, or being restored to race, that fit this set of requirements. Replica's would be eligible, but only on the proviso the original car no longer exists, and the replica is an exact copy of the original.

Here are some I have thought of:

Jim Richards Willment Racing Escort
Paul Fahey Lotus Anglia Allcomer
Red Dawson Shelby Mustang
Ivan Segedin Mustang
Rod Coppins Pontiac Firebird
Jennings Special
Rod Coppins Zephyr Corvette (replica)
Ron Sylvester Chevy coupe
Rod Collingwood AMCO Mini Cooper
Clyde Collins A40 Farina Allcomer (replica)
Peter Bennett Lotus A40 Farina Allcomer
Garth Souness Morrari (replica)
Dave Simpson Lotus Anglia Allcomer
Sidchrome Hilman Imp
Spinner Black HK Monaro
Neil Doyle Anglia Corvette
Barry Phillips Lotus Cortina
Frank Hamlin Minisprint
Joe Chamberlain/Dennis Marwood Camaro
Paul Fahey Allan Mann Escort
Jack Nazer Cossack Escort
Red Dawson Kensington Carpets Camaro

OK, theres 22 cars to kick things off. What have you guys got?

[AMCO72]

Steve....interesting thread. My guess is there are a lot of old ex racers out there but nowhere to race them.
However you are starting to lay down some rules!!!!! You say they are to be as they raced in the 60's and 70's up to about 73, which as far as I am concerned is a great cut-off date........BUT they cannot race on slicks, and yet I'll bet that most of these old war-horses raced on slicks in their day. So why this weird anti-slick thing on cars designed and raced with these tyres. Surely it is not a monetry thing.....all tyres are expensive.

We have exactly the Dunlop tyres that the Amco Mini raced on in it's two seasons and yet we would not be able to use them, but instead some thinly disguised slick, masquerading as a dot rated road tyre. Take a look at the tyres on the under 3 litre class cars at the festival and you will see what I mean.

Also, are old style roll cages allowed or do they all have to be up to present specs......I think Rod Grimwood has this problem.

Are we all going to 'race' together? There are some BIG differences in performance in that group already, from the Sidchrome Imp upwards, but we would much prefer to race with a group like this instead of the present under 3 litre class.

But hey..I'm just a negative bastard.........this is a great idea, I hope it grows.

[Steve Holmes]

Its just a thought really Gerald, I'd personally love to see a field of old original cars all running together, even though they may not have all raced together in period. My reasoning for the non-slick thing would be that slicks were only just being introduced around the time of the cut-off period I gave, the vast majority of the cars on the list above would never have raced on slicks in period.

The performances of the cars listed above wouldn't be that vast, even the V8s would not be fast cars. Consider where the Segedin Mustang was when the Rat was driving it last year, or where the Dawson Mustang was at this years event in relation to your car. I'd hazard a guess your Mini would be one of the fastest cars in the field, with you at the wheel (assuming you haven't sold it?).

As for rollcages, well thats something quite outside the powers of anyone who creates a historic racing class. Anything to do with safety is governing body territory.

[Steve Holmes]

I should also say, that list of cars above, most are already racing in historic events somewhere around NZ.

[fullnoise68]

Steve, on paper it says `shit these would be good to watch' but in reality, as Gerald mentioned, the red tape, the politics, event organisers saying one thing and then doing the opposite, etc, would determine such a groups existance.
With HMC, the easiest option is to let the `actual' smaller cars, such as the Willment and Fahey Escorts, the Sidchrome Imp, Collingwoods Mini,etc, run with us, at selected meetings, because the rest apart from Bruces Firebird and Tonys Camaro,are as you say out on a limb at present.
This is why I think the potential to have two big `Period Historic' meetings a year, as in era/class correct such as the Allcomers you mentioned, is possible, and could happen if logic prevailed, once you`ve addressed the `arm band' brigade with a shotgun!

[John McKechnie]

Good to get the ball rolling on this Steve.However it may be a sticky one. Yes the cars are there, but who do the drivers want to share the track with. Keep them in their own group as a display and not combine with those outside this group. Keep them schedule K COD . Dont worry about the tyre debate, just get them out as they were or as they are now.

[Steve Holmes]

Steve, on paper it says `shit these would be good to watch' but in reality, as Gerald mentioned, the red tape, the politics, event organisers saying one thing and then doing the opposite, etc, would determine such a groups existance.
With HMC, the easiest option is to let the `actual' smaller cars, such as the Willment and Fahey Escorts, the Sidchrome Imp, Collingwoods Mini,etc, run with us, at selected meetings, because the rest apart from Bruces Firebird and Tonys Camaro,are as you say out on a limb at present.
This is why I think the potential to have two big `Period Historic' meetings a year, as in era/class correct such as the Allcomers you mentioned, is possible, and could happen if logic prevailed, once you`ve addressed the `arm band' brigade with a shotgun!

Yeah I know Steve, and it'll probably never happen, I don't know of anyone who'd want to take on such a headache of an idea. But it'd only be to get the cars all out together, no club, no series, none of that. Just a formation of old original cars that raced in period. Evan Munt managed to pull together a field of old original OSCA cars a couple of years ago for the 40th anniversary of OSCA.

Another one for the list: Alan Boyle Coke Viva

[Steve Holmes]

Good to get the ball rolling on this Steve.However it may be a sticky one. Yes the cars are there, but who do the drivers want to share the track with. Keep them in their own group as a display and not combine with those outside this group. Keep them schedule K COD . Dont worry about the tyre debate, just get them out as they were or as they are now.

Thats really up to the individual John. Do double duty if you want to, race both HMC and historic period saloons.

[AMCO72]

I have a sneaky suspision that the HMC boys dont really want us, the U3L, with them, and I fully agree. Although it was a stirring sight at the festival with all these cars mixed up, the fact of the matter is that it was a 'convenience' thing. I have no doubt in my mind that Dale and his boys will be able to field a full grid of proper Muscle cars next festival, or before.

Where does that leave the U3L brigade ?
Arthur Vowels is a bit worried that this class is not attracting many new entries, and I dont know what we can do to improve the situation. The theory is that spectators come to these events to watch. Maybe they race in another class now but see U3L as a better alternative and decide to have a go. You cant do anymore. If the racing grabs people they may be tempted to try it themselves.

But I think if it could be got off the ground as it were, the Historic saloon cars racing together would be magic. As you say a lot of these machines are already up and running, so is just a matter of getting them altogether.......yeh right!!!!!

By the way the 0-1000cc class were racing on Dunlop slicks for both the 70/71 season and the 71/72 season.
I refer you to the MSNZ manual no35 page 480 where it states clearly that a historic race car should compete on the rubber it was on in period.

The Amco Mini would be very happy tooling around with these guys. Howabout you also stipulate that the ORIGINAL driver/s do the driving!!!!!!!!!!!LoL

[fullnoise68]

Gerald, to add to my previous comments, and in regards to your `convenience' remark, 43 or 44 cars in our first race at the festival was just bullshit.That is why a select few such as the likes of your Mini -with you driving it - and the `actual' small cars of that era of NZ motorsport, such as the Willment Escort, are good to race with, so long as they are on the same enjoyment page. Sure with the interest in HMC and the projected growth of the class, we`ll be able to field 20 - 25 cars regularily which is a good grid in itself, and that will happen.
Glenn Allingham and I had some great real close racing on the second weekend of the festival in our Camaros, and we had little cars all over us in the corners, but those particular guys - apart from one???? - gave us room to manoeuvre, which was great.
The U3L is quite a mixed bag, with a lot of the cars in that group being able to run in many different catergories, whereas with HMC we`re trying to showcase a period correct big banger class, that if the response from the public at the two weekends of the festival is any indication, is what they want to see.

[AMCO72]

I think Alan Boyle would up to having a go behind the wheel of the Viva. He seems a sprightly sort of Gent. Had a long chat with him at the second weekend. We were sitting in the Mini and he said that the front passenger seat looked familiar. He had actually made a mould in the late 60's, and Rod was one of the racers who bought a pair for the Amco mini. We have the drivers seat as well but arent allowed to use it!!!!!!! Rules dont you know.

Isnt it amazing who you meet up with at these gatherings......far better than the driving.



fullnoise, a question.........who is ???????????

[kiwi285]

Don't forget the Fahey Cologne Capri hopefully finished this year.
The PDL Mustangs
The Boyle Viva
The racing 3.8 Jaguars
The Moffat Capri
The Harrington and Halliday Escorts

[fullnoise68]

He`s the centre spread in a current magazine.

[John McKechnie]

I think Alan Boyle would up to having a go behind the wheel of the Viva. He seems a sprightly sort of Gent. Had a long chat with him at the second weekend. We were sitting in the Mini and he said that the front passenger seat looked familiar. He had actually made a mould in the late 60's, and Rod was one of the racers who bought a pair for the Amco mini. We have the drivers seat as well but arent allowed to use it!!!!!!! Rules dont you know.

Isnt it amazing who you meet up with at these gatherings......far better than the driving.



fullnoise, a question.........who is ???????????

Gerald- Do you have to run the original mini front seat for schedule K or the racing seat used for the year you specified.
Also do you have to have one seat or all seats for this schedule K

[ERC]

Totally agree that there needs to be a class for race saloons as opposed to roadgoing (which we are at the moment).

However, before anyone gets too carried away, I respectfully suggest that to go through all the hoops to get an old car back on the track to race just once a year, is hardly worthwhile - unless the Classic/Historic fraternity can resolve the current issues with MSNZ re cages etc.

We already have several saloons in the ERC grids that are thinly disguised racers and would be better off racing with similar cars, but we allow them in simply because they have nowhere else to race.

Arthur's U3L group hasn't brought out more than a couple of cars that are not already racing in other groups, so maybe we need to get our heads together to decide just how many viable grids there are - and I think that we also need to look at North and South Islands when listing present or past cars.

North Island Classics (Saloons/Sports/GTs) only

HMC is well on the way to being viable but I think it is going to take another year or two to fully mature.
BMW can field at least two or three viable grids.
Alfa and MG grids and classic Japanese could all really do with a grid boost.
Central Muscle cars are viable.
Our ERC (AES & Arrows) grids seem to mop up the others (including sports and GTs) and generally have viable grids, though there is a lot of overlap with Alfa, MG & BMW.

The U3L grid is only stand alone viable when the other grids are not running.

It seems to me that the only grid not represented is indeed classic race saloons.

[John McKechnie]

Its just a thought really Gerald, I'd personally love to see a field of old original cars all running together, even though they may not have all raced together in period. My reasoning for the non-slick thing would be that slicks were only just being introduced around the time of the cut-off period I gave, the vast majority of the cars on the list above would never have raced on slicks in period.

The performances of the cars listed above wouldn't be that vast, even the V8s would not be fast cars. Consider where the Segedin Mustang was when the Rat was driving it last year, or where the Dawson Mustang was at this years event in relation to your car. I'd hazard a guess your Mini would be one of the fastest cars in the field, with you at the wheel (assuming you haven't sold it?).

As for rollcages, well thats something quite outside the powers of anyone who creates a historic racing class. Anything to do with safety is governing body territory.

Steve-I have started the ball rolling on this.I have been told to get pics of the car showing cage, results of the races, pref a log book.The cage on my can be done as original using modern material. Recommended to take to a specialist.They are not keen on bolt in cages.

[crunch]

[QUOTE=AMCO72;25073]Also, are old style roll cages allowed or do they all have to be up to present specs......I think Rod Grimwood has this problem.

QUOTE]

If the car is the genuine article and is spec'd in period, then it would get a Schedule K COD. As long as proof can be shown that the cage is period then it fits under Sch AA and could run without modification. Not as hard as many people make out...

[Steve Holmes]

Thanks crunch, thats a really great post, and a really good point.

In fact, one of the reasons I listed the cars in my opening post was because the majority are already competing in historic events somewhere in NZ, or are being restored for historic racing, so hopefully rollcage issues shouldn't be of any concern.

Remember, this thread was really only created to stimulate conversation on this subject, and to get people thinking about the idea. The idea is not that it be a series, a championship, or anything like that. Its really just about bringing together a field of old racing saloons that all have a competition history, just for the sake of history. It shouldn't have any affect on existing historic saloon groups, as it'd only be a one-off.

When you see a field of F5000s, a field of Formula Juniors, Historic Formula Fords, etc, all the cars on the grid have some sort of period history. But this isn't the case with racing saloon cars. Most are new builds, created for historic racing. The reasoning for this is usually because there aren't enough original cars for every person wanting to go historic racing. So the question is, are there enough cars currently in NZ whereby if someone was motivated enough, they could pull them all together for a single event to have a race?

[Steve Holmes]

Don't forget the Fahey Cologne Capri hopefully finished this year.
The PDL Mustangs
The Boyle Viva
The racing 3.8 Jaguars
The Moffat Capri
The Harrington and Halliday Escorts

Hi Mike, thanks. The PDL Mustangs and Moffat Capri would be too modern. The cut-off would be the end of 1973. PDL I originally began racing in 1970, but raced right through to the early 1980s, and has since been restored to its 1975/76 period.

[Steve Holmes]

The Rodger Anderson Cambridge BMW 2002 would be another one that would fit.