I agree John, It fills me with dread to think restored drifting cars will perhaps command premium prices in 30 years as desirable collectables.
Bruce.
Originally Posted by John McKechnie
I agree John, It fills me with dread to think restored drifting cars will perhaps command premium prices in 30 years as desirable collectables.
Bruce.
You know, Bruce, I had never thought of that. Then again I never filled my garage with 120Y Coupes.Then again , its not worth the emotion thinking this for the next 30 years-you will have all that time with the Firebird- and Mustang -to fill you with exquisite feelings
Last edited by John McKechnie; 03-03-2013 at 10:23 AM.
Better get used to the idea Bruce - my son, who is 25 has what he calls a classic car - it's a mid-80s Mazda 323 turbo. He loves coming out to the classic car and motorbike meetings with me but he drools over Japanese cars. He was fizzing about the TKR Primera at the recent Hulme Festival.
What is nostalgia - surely the love of cars (and other things) that you lusted after back in the day. (Usually before you could afford them!).
The BOAC Fahey Mustang?
That is an awkward one as the car still exists in PDL electric blue form, which makes a case for dead nuts replicas of early forms of several cars that evolved or changed class over the years, there seems to be a number of knockers in & around motorsport classic circles that dont want this sort of thing to happen, but are quite happy to have the originals parade around in funeral procession style, but actually race or inadvertently bump into one another, heaven forbid [ or should it be welcome in!]
That`s right Jac Mac, my ex USA 68 Camaro A Sedan which I imported to run in HMC was originally built as a race car in 1975 as per its original SCCA log book, and whilst it wasn`t a `name' driver car, it still has racing history throughtout the US, and is only 5 - 6 years newer than some of the period cars here in NZ that other owners would rather just parade around in. Same can be said for Nigel MacDonald who bought the ex Red Dawson Shelby back from the Bowdens to run in HMC, which he did with us at the Denny Hulme Festival. These cars were built to race, so get them out and do some skids. Yes it`s important to preserve historic things, but really we are only caretakers for the next bugger to own it, and life isn`t a rehearsal, so get them out for yourselves and everyone else to enjoy!
These two guys have hit the nail on the head. As 'custodian' of one of these 'super valuable' historic racing saloons, I cant see any point in going out, between races, and 'demonstrating' our cars to a public audience who frankly want to see, and hear them how they used to be. Trundling along at 100 k's I'm afraid is just not going to do the business.
We may, as Jacmac says, inadvertently 'bump' into one another, but we would try VERY hard not to........ YES....... To say that most of these cars are original is being a little economical with the truth. The Amco Mini has been rolled, boled and arsholed during its racing life, and it shows. Just look at the crinkly old floor and battered engine bay. Some of these machines have had complete body replacements, as in the old days it was easier to find a replacement body and fit parts to it, rather than repair what is damaged. After the contact with the concrete wall at the festival, the Mini has gone to a panel beater who actually knows how to panel beat, rather than just replace panels. Might not look as pristine as a new panel but much more satisfying.
Most of these old stagers were as rough as guts when they were built, quite unlike the concours examples we are seeing appear now,
and after spending zillions of dollars getting them up and running again, owners are of course reluctant to get them 'scratched'. But here you are loosing site of what they are, and why they were constructed in the first place. To actually get them out on the track and give them a bloody good workout is very satisfying, knowing you are sitting in the cabin, looking out the windscreen that its original owner did.
Some folk say they are too valuable to race. Why..........they might look smart sitting quietly in a display area or, heaven forbid, in a museum, but that, I think is a sad end to a creation that gave pleasure to people all those years ago, and is what those same people want to see again.
And the valuation thing. How do you put a value on an old race car. Is it worth what someone paid to have it restored, plus a premium, or is it worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.......willing seller, willing buyer. We have all heard stories about wealthy business men, who flick out their check-books and invite you to fill in the blanks......yeh right.
To get a large group of these machines together one day would be fantastic. We do have a 'problem' in NZ in that we are two islands divide by a stretch of water, and these two islands seem to have gone their own separate ways when it comes to motorsport. But hey, us owners of these super valuable cars have tons of money, travel the length and breadth of NZ will be no problem. Will it?????
You have raised an issue that appeared in March 2012 Octane magazine, "To conserve or to restore?".
Part of the article quotes Doug Nye (precis) "Cars are an assemblage of consumables, from brake pads to cranks, spark plugs to in some cases, bodywork and crankcase" etc. He also postulates that unlike the owner of a painting, by enjoying the use of your car, you are effectively consuming your possession.
Your choice to lock it away, display it, cruise around in convoy at 100kph or race it. I for one am happy enough to see (and hear) the cars in action. I am happy to make parade time available at any race meeting I run for any group who wants to cruise around the track at lunchtime behind a safety car, but going any quicker raises issues with the Steward and MSNZ's rules for issuing a permit, where even convoy runs have to be specified.
As an arena, you'd really only want a higher profile event where the owners of such cars can then mix and mingle throughout the meeting and show the public. Racing (even low key) would only come about if the numbers are there to justify grid time which has to be paid for; cars (and drivers) would be subjected to the normal criteria for any race meeting.
What the well heeled in Europe are doing, is to have a replica built then race the replica, the Drummers Auto Union is said to be just that. The issues will surface later in time when two cars appear as being both the same car.Greed and quick profits will overcome common decency.
Agree entirely with your last sentence.
Gerald- so will you in your not so pristine Mini, and me in my repainted Monaro be on the start line next January, and this time will you complete the first corner so we can have some of this fun you are alluding to ?
John, I have re-read my post above, and NOWHERE does it mention having fun!!!!!!!!!! Or indeed ALLUDING to having fun.
Sorry to be so pedantic, but I sure as hell wasnt having FUN when that bloody wall jumped out and devoured large chunks of my precious.....VALUABLE Historic Race car.
When the paramedics arrived to drag me from the smoking wreck, they thouight I was off my trolley, as I was raving on about the damage to the car. Clearly I had had a serious BUMP on the head rendering me temporarily insane. The very kind lady asked me how I was as she was concerned about my well-being. I said to her...'stuff MY well-being, look at the f###ing car'.
She managed to calm me down sufficiently to get me into the back seat of her vehicle, where I sat like a stunned mullet contemplating, not my navel, but my incompetance behind the wheel. How was I going to face my No1 driver and tell him the bad news. She assured me that cars can be fixed, but sometimes bodies are a bit more difficult. She was infuriatingly calm about the whole episode and I felt like wringing her neck!!!!!
No, she was very professional about it all. Aren't we lucky to have such a service at out tracks. Out on the main road I would probably have flung myself under a truck and ended it all.
But there we are. .......owning these 'valuable' cars what do you do. Stick em in a shed with a cover over them, or get them out and shoot the breeze, even if every now and then disaster takes over. If I was a car, I know which I would prefer. If I was a car I wouldn't be writing this......would I ??????????
There is another issue beneath all this talk of ' demonstration/procession ' type event, the cross section of drivers and their respective skill levels becomes wider, you get those who wish to drive around with something like 75% effort and are just there to enjoy driving the car at higher, but not on the limit type speeds, and those who are there to race, one of the frequent comments you will hear from drivers of faster cars is that the slower [ cars & drivers ] tend to swap lines and wander around on the track rather than maintain their lines/position & often misjudge the closing rate of a faster car. I think you have to come to terms with either your there to race or not. Those that are actually racing at somewhere near the limit will usually find a defined racing line around the circuit, those driving at something like the 75% level will find they can wander all over the place and end up becoming mobile chicanes to the faster cars/drivers.
Last edited by Jac Mac; 03-04-2013 at 07:01 AM.
Wow, some seem to get the wrong end of the stick entirely. It seems to me that there will be the opportunity to see the cars on the track, making plenty of noise and doing some skids, but NOT banging into each other, or they won't be brought to the track at all because there is no invitation or place to be. (arena)
Why 100 K ? I was told I couldn't go in the noon parade as it was a "high speed" display, yet the cars in the later afternoon "demos' were well going over 200 kph.
Last time I looked I couldn't find any acid dipped '69 Firebird Trans Am body panels on Trademe . And damn straight I don't want it banged up.
Gerald, you banged the Mini, and packed it all in. Steve, I recall how upset you were that your Camaro was damaged, and rightly so. But there were grids of 40+ privateer Camaros in many T/A races. Hundreds were raced if not thousands. 6 factory backed 69 Firebirds raced.
Who is going to pay for new alloy fenders flares on the PDL Mustangs, or the Sidchrome, How about the Nazer Victor ? None of those on trademe either. I'm sure Tony Boyden won't be happy if his beautiful Camaro gets wrinkled.
It's all easy when it someone else's car, and you want to see them out there getting wild. You want me to race the Coppins car, I'll build one of those 600 hp race engines like the Aussies run. (history be damned) Might as well run a replica, but I'm not well healed, and not in Europe.
I'm looking at getting the cars out there. Isn't that what we want ?
McKechnievich, how much is a new rear quarter for a 68 Monaro ? and where do you get them ?
Gerald- a very touching piece,especially as I saw that wall jump out in front of you, happened right in front of me, think I even saw your glasses fly off- no double tie downs there. We must do this for fun, as we dont get money for it., However you have not answered my question.
I've read this thread with interest. It is a subject I can relate to.
I decided to sit on my hands and bite my tongue but Bruce302, as he does often, has eloquently stated more or less exactly what I was thinking. Owners of historic cars or any car for that matter are exactly that, owners. That gives them the right to do exactly what they want with that car. Park it under a tree, park it in a barn, restore and park it in a museum, restore and race it or even park it in a concrete barrier. Bottom line nobody has the right to 'guilt' anyone into doing anything other than what they want or can afford to with a car they own.
Should the day come I own a restored piece of racing history will I put it on the track and race it. No. If I could afford to go racing I'd build a racing car and would have done it 30 years ago. Fact is I could only afford to do it once, bend it and it stays bent. The point is not everyone can afford to do it all. Good on you if you can but shame on you for criticising those who can't.
Bruce 302, clearly if I had read your post more carefully I would not have got the wrong end of the stick. Any 'demonstration' laps that I have seen have been behind the pace car at a very limited speed. You are obviously thinking along the lines of the Can Am cars at the Festival, where they had 'claytons' race........racing but not racing, and well spread out so there was no chance of contact.
But things can also happen where there is no contact between cars and things just go wrong for whatever reason. In my case it was probably old age, but when you are driving at 200kph, a slight error, a slight malfunction and things happen very quickly, and walls are very unforgiving.
And frankly whats the difference in repairing the replica as to repairing the real thing, which MAY not have its original panels anyway. You still have to find replacement panels or repair the damaged ones.
Most race cars carry scares from battles fought. It is part of their history, that is why we are beating out the Mini rather than replacing, which with a Mini is dead easy as I'm sure you can appreciate.
This one Jac Mac, she had a few different colour schemes.
I suppose the main thing here is each owners enterpretation of what they want with their car. Value? well how much is a F5000 to buy these days, let alone run one. Enjoyment? it`s all right mate all the others will be back soon. History? yeah the longer you keep it the more historic it becomes.Satisfaction? yours or other like minded people. Bruce, I asked Craig Stacey at the Festival if he would consider selling me the Nazer Victor so I could get it going again for such events as we`re talking about here. He declined as he wants to do just that himself. When I leave this world, I don`t want to have a dribble stained bib around my neck wondering why my Triumph Stag wheels didn`t fit my Triumph Herald, or why didn`t I get my cheesecutter hat drycleaned more often. Hell no, I want to go out knowing that I`ve enjoyed myself, have helped others along the way, and can chuckle to myself `man, what a ride...........
couple more colours (got a photo of her in pink/purple somewhere)
Last edited by Rod Grimwood; 03-04-2013 at 09:25 AM.
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