Just see you Steve, with your Magenta walker all crossed up scarpering out of the kitchen.
Actually put a couple more bits together on old girl, time and money and not actually in that order, but it will happen.
Just see you Steve, with your Magenta walker all crossed up scarpering out of the kitchen.
Actually put a couple more bits together on old girl, time and money and not actually in that order, but it will happen.
Rod- what track and when is the Fahey 104 Mustang? That looks like my Mini Cooper S number 51 (my Number) in the background
Aussie trip John.
Odds are that with all the two tone Minis, there had to be more than one with 51 on the side.
John, to reply to your question. I am a danger to shipping out there, and while I got away without hitting anyone this time, who knows, next time might be different, and bruce302's worst nightmare might come true!!
SO........plain 1, purl 1..............bedsox anyone?
Ah well, one door closes, another door opens..Originally Posted by AMCO72
Is the purl double declutching as the needles change direction at speed?
Also is your zimmer frame going to be matching colour to the Mini?
Bruceshvilli- have just got a slightly used, low rust right rear quarter. Price confidential as publication may affect the market value of them.If I bought it, it was affordable
I figure if you have one, then you wont need one.
I am grateful to Steve H for drawing a line in the sand and wanting to provide something different for you , me and the others, to let the public see the icons from the past still run and not museum pieces .
My Monaro when restored will not be a pristine over restored work of art.It is quite simply the car that I fell in love with in 1969 and I will never have to opportunity to own anything like this EVER again.. we wont even discuss that I have looked for this car to OWN for 43 years. Not an impulse buy just to be a big noter.
I am on the same side of the fence as Bruce in regards looking after my car and not wanting it banged.
I can always do skids in the Smurf Coupe.
Last edited by John McKechnie; 03-05-2013 at 07:20 AM.
Hi everyone. I'm the JD with the Halliday Escort and the race Aston Zagato (rebuild finished just last week, and will be at the Leadfoot).
Thanks to Steve for promoting this discussion here and happy to share my own thoughts. Firstly, I have to admit to being influenced by how the UK and Europe get their historic cars out on the tracks, competing in a wide variety of series. It's relatively easy for them of course, with literally hundreds (probably thousands) of historic saloons running on circuits from Mondello in Ireland, to Snetterton in the UK, and all points in between. I fully understand that the challenges here are quite different, but there are some interesting things that might be relevant.
1. How people run historics there is entirely up to the series organisers; they decide what cars will run. If the owners don't like the series, they go elsewhere. It's a common misconception that FiA/HtP predominates there. It doesn't, and the MSA does not dictate documentation or regulations for historic motorsport, other than the Historic Rally Championship (which is an FiA event anyway). Goodwood, U2C, Gentlemen Drivers, Heritage GT etc etc, all run their own series, and papers not required and non existent. There are races for historics with FiA papers only, but they are usually one of a number of races at a meeting (eg, I ran a Group C car in support races for FiA ETC and F3 championship races, but we had nothing to do with the FiA; very simply, the meeting organisers could pick and choose who came to support, and they chose us). The MSA provides governance and safety parameters for all motorsport. Quite why MNZ here wants to get involved in dictating (to my mind, completely misguided and ultimately pointless) T&C and CoD regimes, is beyond me. However, that's not for this forum (sorry Steve, will desist).
2. The emphasis is on getting cars that ran together in period together. That means Minis, Alfas and Escorts with Falcons, Camaros and Mustangs. The Anglo American series that ran there in the 80s and 90s was a huge success, and entirely self administered. I have to admit to being disappointed at the curious aversion that some people have here to seeing that sort of racing which is obviously entertaining and will bring crowds back. Rather than splitting the U3L grid off when there are enough cars, wouldn't it be better to just have two grids separated only on times? The best fun I ever had racing was being on track with Andy Rouse in his epically wild Camaro, surrounded by a gaggle of British saloons heading into the Old hairpin at Donington.If you can't learn to race with anything other than identical iron around you, you probably shouldn't be racing at all; ask Paul Radisich, Foggy or Andy Booth.
3. Everyone needs to get over the slicks thing. As I've tried on countless occasions to explain, there are no (and I mean a very big NO, so please don't point me in the direction of some tyre manufacturer or other, as I have spoken to very single one), 50+ profile DOT tyres that will fit on my period correct (bought at some expense) minilites. I run Kumhos, and they are fine, but they look daft on my rears as they are 45 profile (I've got 50s on the front, but they are a stretch as I can't get the correct width). I can get period correct slicks and groove them and the car will look as it should do. Someone please explain what the problem is, as I haven't heard a single rational explanation yet. It certainly isn't performance, as a six lap race at HD is hardly going to push the envelope on cold tyres. "Bonkers" was the word used by my man at Avon performace tyres in the UK.
4. I think some of the engineering of cars here is exceptional. Paul McCarthy's Escort is superb (and driven well). It's his choice as to how he builds it, and series organsiers will make their own decisions about whether they want his car and others like it to enter. Ironically, he'd be in big demand in the UK in series like the Heritage GTs. The same goes for the front running cars in Arrows, and without Ray Green, I have to wonder where many of the cars would go. The point I think I'm making is that there has been no compelling reason up to now for owners of period cars to engineer them 'backwards'. Why put on four pot girlings, small SUs, unreliable drivetrains and lever arm suspension and sit at the back of the grid, when you can buy off the shelf reliable performance parts? Of course it's a shame that so many of the period cars have disappeared or been compromised with non period mods, but that's the way it has been here, and it has resulted in some epically good cars.
Times are changing as historic motorsport is the fastest growing branch of our sport world wide. Part of it is driven by money of course and there's no doubt that genuine period race cars fetch serious money. Not only that, but any car rebuilt to period standards and specs (and that is where FiA/HtP papers have come into their own) will fetch equally eye watering amounts. Whether we like it or not, that's a fact, and maybe that alone will prompt rebuilt cars to head towards the period correct specs...maybe.
Hats off to all pushing the historic scene here; Steve, Chris and Tony at HD, Arthur Vowles and Dale Mathers and all the owners. We don't have to do it, but it's bloody good fun and racing here in NZ is certainly that.
JD......I'm glad someone else on this forum is as puzzled as we are about the use of slicks, as in paragraph 3 of your post. If you have read some of my other posts you will see that I am continually asking the question.....what is the problem with slicks. Your car and ours and several others ran with these things in their day. The suspensions were designed for them, the wheels made for them, and like you we cannot get ANY decent dot rated tyres to fit our 10 inch rims.
All tyres are expensive, so that cant be an objection, and as to a performance advantage, well you hit the nail on the head when you say the heat required for the slicks to operate at their optimum, is hardly an issue in a 6-8 lap race.
Thank you for a thoughtful and comprehensive piece of writing, and I'm glad someone is on the same page as us.
I will be interested in the replys we get.
I have the utmost respect for the above two gentleman as drivers, car owners and also being able to promote their ideals.
We bent over backwards to allow John's car into the ERC series, even though it is in most respects, rather more of a race car than a road car. The reason for allowing it to run is simply that there was then, logically, nowhere else for it to run!
Our series has always been promoted as a series for cars effectively to WoF standards, and that therefore includes DoT rated tyres. Some have pushed the envelope a bit too far, but until such times as grids are over subscribed, far better they have a sand pit to play in.
In my very humble opinion, the major difference between a road car and a race car is not stripping out the interior, installing a miniature of the Eiffel Tower and souping up the engine, but the tyres, as they are NOT able to be used on the road. Simple as that. Right from the day I drew up the original rules, I was also aware that there were many Targa cars that wanted some race action and made sure that we could cope. Gordon Burr's ex-Proctor Escort (Ford V8) is the perfect example. It was road registered. I am not sure that there is a compelling case to change our stance as I suspect ther would be a rush from those with deeper pockets to go out and buy another set of rims and tyres for some sort of temporary advantage, nullified immediately by a shift in the handicap.
We need entry level race groups. We have them.
JD also made the quote after the Auckland driver's meeting to thrash out T & C that is now my mantra, regarding repowers (with certain limitations). "If it looks like an Escort, it probably is an Escort."
What is under the skin is indeed up to series organisers and race promoters and has nothing whatever to do with MSNZ, and very little to do with the H & C commission either. If it isn't schedule K, it is not really your problem. (Crunch already knows that is my opinion!)
HMC has its rules. End of story. We have our rules. End of Story. Ditto BMW & Alfa. As John points out, if those series rules don't work, the series' fall over. Couldn't be simpler.
Allowing people to run slicks (without a very good reason, such as John's) changes the whole ethos of the series, which was always aimed at the drive to the meeting, empty the boot, stick on the numbers race brigade.
Over the years, most have elected to use trailers (myself included) as it is cheaper overall to tow the car than to pay all the various charges, including that high ACC content, an annual authority card, WoF, insurance etc for 200-300kms a year.
John's car is a classic case of when there is a more appropriate arena, he will probably move to it, though we'd never refuse his participation in the ERC group. One of the reasons for that is that we have never had a complaint from another driver - and I have a soft spot for Aston Martins...
Last edited by ERC; 03-05-2013 at 07:07 AM.
So there we have it. If you cant get a WOF with the tyre for road use then we cant use them on the track. Well I can tell you that several [a lot/most of ] the U3L cars had tyres that although they were dot rated, they were NOT RECOMMENDED FOR ROAD USE.
Why, because as I have said before, they are thinly disguised slicks and cant manage anything more that a DAMP road. Not a big problem on the race track, but a major one out on the highway.
Ray you summed it up when you said that most [all ? ] of the competitors in the ERC series trailer their cars to the track for all the reasons you say, PLUS in the event of a major malfunction you can get them home again. Events like classic trials should be ok with WOF's and being driven to and from the track with their dot rated tyres, but all these other machine are to all intents and purposes RACE cars, and should be dealt with accordingly.
I have bought the matter of the Amco Mini up with you before, as we both know it is not, and never has been a road car. Your reply to me, and I have it front of me, is that it is entirely within the spirit of the meeting, and please hurry back.!!!!!! Now I couldnt have a more welcoming invitation than that, could I.
John, who are you referring to when you say 'not an impulse buy just to be a big noter'?
Thanks Gerald. Yes, you and you know who, are always welcome. The U3L group run to their own rules regarding tyres but as I understand it, to T & C rules.
There are in fact quite a few ERC cars still driven to the event - and not just up the road either. I see quite a few heading north after the events. As an entry level series, drivers can graduate from Classic Trials, seamlessly, as budget and experience dictates.
Drivers with limited or no track experience who may want to shake down a muscle car prior to an HMC run, or any other sports, saloon, GT, can do so at their own pace and with no expectations of going too fast. (They have a speed bar anyway). An ideal stepping stone or transition to racing.
There was no implied reference to anyone at all.
Last edited by John McKechnie; 03-05-2013 at 09:52 AM.
I better get this thing in the garage together so John can come and run around with me. The more I read the more I wonder were I will run it. 1 roll cage ?. 2 slicks, never had anything else. 3 it has no inside except alloy panels. 4 only glass in windscreen, plastic elsewhere. 5 no muffler. 6 no radio. 7 no heater. 8 owner has no money but has a trailer.
I only suggested DOT or period correct cross-plies because I'd originally suggested a 1973 cut-off date, and most of the cars I'd listed would have been built and raced in period on treaded tyres. Then again, in period, what actually constituted a slick tyre? Was any racing-only tyre that was not for road use considered a slick? Or did it have to be completed free of any tread to be considered a slick?
Here is a photo of Allan Moffats Mustang at Pukekohe in 1972. Note the tyre next to the car. This is a Goodyear Bluestreak tyre, which is still being produced today for historic racing. This tyre has always labelled for competition use only, therefore, its not a DOT tyre. This was the ultimate in racing tyres at the time. Was this considered a slick tyre in 1972? This seems to be what most cars were fitted with at the time, hence my suggestion tyres by either period correct cross-plies such as this, or DOT tyres.
Then again, if as Bruce suggested, you're opening the cut-off date right up to allow '70s and '80s Sports Sedans, OSCA, ShellSport etc which were all built for and raced on slicks, then obviously anyone who wants to fit slicks, could do.
John Weston in Tauranga a bit of a rascal
There has been a lot of talk on this thread about restored race cars, where, how, and even IF they should be 'raced'. Everyone has their opinion, and they have a right to that opinion, but fortunately there are still a lot of restorers out there who are happy, some very happy to give their precious machines a good workout on the track, in the company of others.
I think this is the time and place to quote Mr Justice Otton, the presiding judge in the 'Old Number One Bentley' court case...........
'Continuous history is the basis for evaluating a classic car; the car has a life of it's own that transcends the sum of it's parts, and this is surely how it should be.
A motor car is not a painting or a piece of antique furniture that you put in your house. It is a functional piece of machinery to be driven and enjoyed, and then repaired when it breaks, and driven again.
The motor car is a product of the machine age, not the craft age. The obsession in certain quarters with 'all matching numbers', is to loose the sense of what a motor car is, and risk consigning them to mothballs and museums. The thought upper most in your mind when out driving should NOT be that the car is loosing value if you break the engine'.
Amen to that.........
Well put Gerald, my father in law is in the process of whittling down his quite large collection of assorted cars and motorbikes - 22 of his motorbikes are going through Webbs Auctions this Sunday - and many of his cars haven`t seen the light of day for 20 odd years. He has a few favourites that he gets about in, but as much as he has enjoyed `owning' them, the next owner is no doubt going to enjoy `driving them.' This scenario is relevant to the various views on this thread.
The Velo & Vincent on offer are almost enough to drag me back to 2 wheels...
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