Its good to know the consultation process works Crunch. I think your new position is right on the money, now its over to the various interested parties to make it happen.Originally Posted by crunch
Its good to know the consultation process works Crunch. I think your new position is right on the money, now its over to the various interested parties to make it happen.
I have just read thru the last 7 pages of posts comments view
Here is my $1.50 worth
Formula Ford is alive around the world in various guises in Historics classes and modern car design cut off dates classes in different countries.
Here in the "motherland" we still run FFord to the letter of the rules set out donkeys years ago
Kent engines as per the original rules ( USA has alloy heads different pistons flywheels and cranks) we can now use the Scat crank
Dampers and wheels are steel Usa has modified this rule
Dampers are 2 way units at most
Tyres are still a treaded tyre not slick
we have avon ACB10 for modern FFord and softer ACB9 with the old dunlop tread pattern for classic & Historic FFord
FYI Historic is pre 72
Classic is 73pre 82 ie rocker suspension
We have Pre 90 Fford
then the regional championships are headed by Vd 90-92 type cars and VD2000 zetec conversions with later 06 ish Rays VD cars converted from Zetec Duratec cars
However some of these cars become expensive to convert to Kent spec as the donor car has alloy dampers alloy callipers ( need to often change uprights radial calipre need lug mounted uprights) alloy wheels engine cover
Most people opt for VD 99-01 car as easiest car to convert for Zetec
Kent FFord in UK ran to 92 and in 93 we had the Dreadful Zetec car and class B Fford was kent engine and Swift built 93 kent car VD didnt bother
In 2003 ish? Ford introduced the Duratec motor but the grids where not good and even the zetec B class didnt bolster things but a lot of this was down to the inept way Ford dictated things and the crass management/organiser involved
Then in 2012 Ford in their infinate wisdom brought out the Eco bosst motor ran car less wings and it flopped
Now they have wings on it and it will have double figure grids but sill a poorly managed promoted championship with high budgets
IMHO IF NZ wants a stepping stone category from karting to F Toyota then look at running 2 year old Duratec cars from Pomland or dig in and sort Kent out in NZ by getting techy with cars
1 steel dampers 1 way or 2 way at most ( maybe nominate damper supplier)
2 weight limit in UK is 420 kg for car 505 car driver
3 ban data logger allow digital dash rpm oil water lap timer but no other sensors
4 Tyres what do u run? our avons now have bar code on them so easy for Techy to bar code tyres so make it 4 new tyres for 3 rounds and allow 1 front 1 rear used as spare/accident damage puncture
this way you can keep tabs on what guys are spending
5 Kent engine parts are getting harder to source for rebuild few issue with pistons and relinering costs heaps
so maybe allow plus 20 though type over bore but add weight to car to compensate for possible extra power the over bore gives versus the £500 relinering cost we have here
Regarding new cars
who needs new car?
Plenty of VD90-92 cars around few Stealths from 93-98 era you have Vd99-02 cars there just get on and get them out of the shed and run them
If precious little Johnny cannot better the times set by Stitchbury Kenny etc etc who drove them 5 10 20 years ago then they aint really trying
We have great FFord Festival for Kents and the Walter Hayes Trophy meeting and numerous local championships running the cars of all different ages
As for combining grids of different year cars ie modern and classic/Historic FFords just get set up some classes with some incentives ie best novice prize /highest u the grid older car etc offer free tyres fuel race entry ferry crossing to encourage grid swelling by finding some donor sponsors
Each year a newer Fford has gone 1-2 tenths alap quicker not leaps n bounds so a 2001 car is only going to be 1.5-2 seconds a lap quicker than a 76 car
In the old days at Brands hatch the pro FFord lap record was set in 85 by Johnny herbert 47.4 the club series guys in champ of brands managed 48.5 as best time circa 93 ish
Jan Magnusson left the record in 92 a tad quicker
Today the circuit has been changed and is slower
Kent record was set in 2011 at the festival @ 49.95 in a Vd2k and the Champ of Brands runners are doing 50.3/4 ish in similar age car
The VD80 car in classic FFord is doing 51.8 ish and Historic cars are 52.1/2
FFord is a great class it does not need new engine it does not need new chassis it does not need 1 make chassis engine either
It needs promoting ( ignore FoMoCo they are a holes) from within NZ on north and south island let them have own "national" championship then have 2 festivals rotating each year to different tracks at the same date each year on each island then get everyone down for heats final to determine who is the best.
In the UK we have Irish series runners Scotland and england and the festival and WHT brings everyone together to see who is top dog
USA and Canada also send over their top drivers to these 2 events
France runs pre 94 cars as they see Kent as it ran up to Zetec cars
Germany was pre 93 until this year
now they allow pre 02 cars to race
I run VD2k i have just bought a VD90 to rebuild and i have Alexis 71 car to restore to race this year
I have 84 Mondiale semi restored ( allegedly eddie irvine car)
I am also in middle of buying another historic car that I will bring down to your January festival to race and you will be excited to see it run in its original drivers livery
I also race modern F3 cars and i enjoy driving my VD2 k as much as my dallara
Remember these dads with karting sons are spending la la money in karting anyway in UK USA EEC and NZ and its been like that for 40 years so let the front runners spend the $ just encourage the rest to come out and race fill the grid and have someone else to dice with after all If Kenny is still racing FFord what does that tell you?
Yes I know Im behind you guys, i like warm beer and it rains a lot here too.
The only time I drink warm beer is in the winter and then it's pommy brew. BUT! You talk a lot of sense even though you like warm beer. Have to agree with most of what you say but really we have to put a stop on rich daddies, somehow.
I have tried your cold beer and i know why you keep it cold !!
Cant beat a good english ale but you can beat an egg!
The rich daddy syndrome has been around from the beginning of motor sport
Gordon Bennet was a wealthy man so was Lance Reventlow Maston Gregory and countless team owners who put young drivers into their cars
To stop daddy shelling out the $$ limit testing limit tyres do away with data logger fancy dampers but the old kent engine cannot be monitored like modern motors with ecu and Fuel injection it has to stay as it is
Perhaps bring in the purchase rule that any driver with the cash can buy the motor on the spot but it will still allow mega buck dad to just buy up the paddock motors
Over here in karting i heard 1 dad bought 70 new cadet motors tested them all kept the 5 best sold the rest off
I also heard that this dad later when kid was older had his SEALED motors opened up fiddled with and then the RAC scrutineer re sealed them and he had £30k into his hand
Kid won the championship and al this came out after wards at the Tribunal and RAC scrutineer was banned for life
Money talks and always has done so let mega buck dad spend his money win the championship and the rest can get on and spend their house keeping money going racing and the real yardstick is the rest of the boys racing
Forgive me for not knowing who your quick boys are as i do not get Motorsport NZ weekly over here but IF i was coming down to race you lot my target is Kenny- If i can be on his tail i am doing well If i beat him then i am happy and i then target the next guy on the result sheet BUT i am not going to be sucked into $15k motors $2k per day engineer $2k on tyres in a weekend to do it
There are sons and dads that can run a good FFord set up with methodical approach spend money wisely get the best out of teh motor tyres test days etc
Last year at the WHT at silverstone the kid in next garage dad said to me we have 8 sets of tyres for sale all new that weekend and will be used 8-10 laps for the each practise session and heat that weekend ! FFS it is a bit of fun i was running 2011 made tyres that were unused in 2012 till i fitted them for the October festival and use again at WHT and i will use them again in some Champ of Brands rounds in 2013 till i have to reluctantly buy another new set
BTW can some one advise me what FFords race at the Hampton Downs hysterical meetings in January?
is it pre 74 or do you include pre 82 cars as well?
Also how does the shipping work do you pay for us to come over? free entry?
any chance we get as much free beer as we can drink and pick of yer women folk too?
I am not bringing my welly's !!
Yes I know Im behind you guys, i like warm beer and it rains a lot here too.
Hey Drift - we had 36 entries for the FF races at the Denny Hulme Festival.
We run Class 1 and 2 cars all together - anything with a Hewland Mk8/9 can run so we range from a Lotus 51B to a vD RF88.
We had six visting Europeans all organised by ringleader Alan Crocker - if you know him, he would be a good person to talk to about shipping, having just done it. As a matter of interest, the six cars comprised Crossles 16/25/32Fs, a Titan Mk6, vD RF88 and Alan's 71 Ray.
Free entry? Yeah good one...Free other things will depend on charm - suffice to say 'Team Europe' (two Ulsterman, a Frenchman, a Dane, a Dutchman and Alan) and all seemed to have a great time - off track at least.
An idea might be to find five like minded old fart FFers to share a container and head on down - I think Team Europe's cars were loaded in early November and arrived here just in time - but there is Taupo the weekend before the first Festival race and then, if the appetite is there, the South Island meetings.
All this means that in six successive weekends there is Taupo, Festival 1 at Hampton Downs, Festival 2 at Hampton Downs, Ruapuna, Levels and Teretonga.
Go for it!!
thanks for info i will find Mr Crocker
the car i have in mind needs full restoration and that might be tight for Nov departure
I could only do the auckland events time wise and $ wise hence the word "free" used
i still need to buy an expensive full peak plane ticket survive for 2 weeks in NZ hire a car etc
I assume the shipping is from UK to the track so i dont need to organise tow car trailer from dock to track etc
Yes I know Im behind you guys, i like warm beer and it rains a lot here too.
Regarding the forthcoming April 21st meeting at Hampton Downs, we have reluctantly had to drop the invitation to modern FFs. I understand that mixing the old and new versions is not without issues, so I do apologise to any moderns who had intended running - though none had entered as at this morning. I thought I was doing the right thing by inviting them, having followed this thread, but I guess that with the best will in the world, you can't always please everyone. Sorry.
We have always had a very good rapport with the Historic FFs and whereas the FJs and smaller capacity historics will happily share the track with them, as they understand the meeting philosophy, the speed differential with modern FF's is seen as too great, especially if any FJs also enter.
That's a great pity. Never mind, full marks to you for attempting to achieve this.
I ran my VD92, by invitation, at a "Classic Oldtimers" meeting at Ruapuna last weekend. I think it was Oldtimer drivers they were referring to. I was most put out being classed as an "Oldtimer"! Entries ranged from wings and slicks FF2000s and an F Renault at the pointy end to an Elden PH25 which is actually not that slow. No problems, perceived or otherwise. Often in club races we run with F5000s and a F Holden which still holds the outright lap record there, set by Baird or Dixon I don't remember which at the time that was the current formula.
Unfortunately FF in the NI appears to be adversely affected by a whole lot of misconceptions such as this, and cost etc. Also, I guess the meeting philosophy thing as well.
So the question remains, where to from here for the NI and the Championship?
Glad we are down here in the Mainland Russ, they seem determined to shoot themselves in the foot up there. What a shame.
Yes Wal, things seem to be looking up on the Mainland. The reason I accepted the invitation to race with the classics last weekend was so I could bend the classic FF drivers ears about entering the SIFF Championship next season.
I keep on at them, and it looks like it may be having an effect. From conversations that I have had, I have reason to be confident that we will see increased numbers of classics for next season. The fact that one competitor in an 84 car managed to take home over $1400 prize money this season is also probably not lost on them. That's not too far away from paying for a set of tyres and fuel for the car for the six rounds! At the level that we operate down here that's a fairly good chunk of direct running expenses covered. If you want to race, you might as well race where you get some returns....
At this point it is probably worth reiterating that the prize money structure for SIFF means ALL competitors in the SIFF Championship pick up prize money. And it is skewed to attracting the older cars.
Hopefully too, with some of the top guns in their Mygales and Stealths moving on, we will manage to attract the next band of young hopefuls. That's a perennial problem..... Certainly there is an advantage having competitive seat time in a series before you embark on a National campaign.
I wonder how Brendon would have gone had he actually done some of the SIFF races beforehand? The NZ Championship was pretty close fought in the end and that could possibly have given him the edge? We will never know...... Certainly, I know James considers that cutting his teeth, and learning from the mistakes he made, in SIFF in the months beforehand helped him win the NZ title.
Last edited by Russ Noble; 04-10-2013 at 08:57 AM.
Russ, I think your method of sponsorship has a lot of merit, too often when a sponsor is found for any series the $$$ is soaked up in advertising & promotion rather than being used as a prize money fund in the manner you have done, organisers and sponsors alike often seem to think that competitors have a bottomless money pit ( and given some of the examples on track today they could be briefly forgiven that! ). When discussions like this come up I am reminded of how things used to be when I first ventured into motorsport back in the late 1960's.... Teretonga clubmans series, early entry fee refunded on passing scruiteneering check on race day, prize money paid out on points down to about tenth place ( might have been more?). OSCA ...that was interesting, when I started with the Imp~1971 prize money from meeting on placings in class was in the mail the following week and a further amount based on season points at the final race meet of the season, by 1978/79 when I gave it all away the meeting checks were up to 3 months late and the season final points tally also late. The point here is that the prize money in my case paid for gas money to & from the events plus accomodation at the local camping grounds etc, it simply would not have happened without it. Older & Wiser? I might be, but everyone in Motorsport these days seem to have forgotten that without cars & drivers willing to take that first step into motorsport they will eventually have nothing for the public to actually look at, we have also lost that 'can do' kiwi attitude which created all the stuff that we are reminiscing over on this site, doesnt need to be that way.
Last edited by Jac Mac; 04-10-2013 at 08:07 PM.
Agree. Yet people on here are still repeating the misconceptions and they have already been told they are not true. Nothing surer will kill F/Ford than these sorts of rumours.
As for Ray's offer, it was great but it seems as though some people are being a bit precious?
Unfortunately that seems so, Sad really.
Couldn't agree more, but Ray has to be cognizant of the wishes of his existing competitors. If enough of the "precious" ones and their mates decide to no longer enter because he has invited moderns, that would certainly be detrimental to his efforts. Especially if no moderns entered..... And we can't say that they would......
I am not close to what is happening in the NI but it appears to me that there seems to be a lethargic malaise amongst the modern car owners/drivers preventing them from getting together to instigate or support any initiatives in order to try and improve the NI and National situation.
I am not sure what role NZFF Inc has, or could have, in all this. But I have exchanged the odd note with Eric Mallard, and he has mentioned "we did put a lot of work in to encourage people". But whatever that was, and for what ever reason, it seems not to have born fruit. It appears the NI owners/drivers have lost interest?
So can someone with the knowledge tell me what is going on in the NI? Are the owners/drivers not responding to NZFF Inc. initiatives? Is NZFF not communicating effectively with the owners/drivers? Or is NZFF's role merely that of coordinating the national championship and it is not geared up to resuscitating a rather dormant FF scene on it's doorstep?
Towards the end of last year I joined NZFF Inc as a show of support, and I also thought that would keep me up to date with everything to do with FF, but other than forwarding of Championship articles, regs, dates etc and a request to enter, the only other communication has been in reply to emails I have sent.
By comparison, SIFF has had newsletters going out during their season, they have drivers meetings during the off season where matters pertaining to FF are discussed. There is an enthusiasm and sense of camaraderie amongst all.
And all this is due in no small way to the continuing efforts over many years of long time SIFF stalwart, Ian Bisman. Is there sufficient enthusiasm for someone to take the lead and do this in the NI?
In the SI there are club races put on by the likes of Canterbury Car Club, South Canterbury Car Club and Southland Sports Car Club for, amongst other things, Formula Libre where anyone with a Sports or Single Seater can compete. There are some interesting speed differentials there! LOL. Does anyone in the NI run these sort of club meetings?
I know. Lots of questions! But I am trying to understand what is (or is not) going on up north.
Last edited by Russ Noble; 04-11-2013 at 08:05 AM.
...you and me both Russ..
An interesting topic that has drifted a wee bit, but that is no bad thing. Read through this message board overall and what do you actually see?
Steve and Dale Pushing HMCs, along with Tony Roberts because they are passionate about its long term future - which I totally support and it will eventually become more viable as more cars hit the track as the basic formula is correct.
Our own series goes from strength to strength, partially again because the formula is correct and over the years, it has had sufficient support from sponsors (not at a high dollar value as such, but support that is appreciated).
Alfa Trofeo, by allowing in more modern Alfas has good support as there are a lot of Alfa owners around and most of their promotion is via their club, rather than through these message boards.
BMW has had spectacular growth both in the E30 series run under tight controls now there is BMW Open, under and over 2 litre, again pushed by their own committee.
BMWs and to a lesser extent, Alfas, are relatively easy to get hold of due to the numbers. MGCC Series on the other hand, cannot grow to spectacular heights as there are so few around, relatively, but the numbers are creeping up. Again, promotion is internal.
So where does that leave FF? For one thing, they are a vehicle that has one purpose and one purpose only - to race. You can't use a race car to nip out for the chips or the beer so they get less overall exposure, so as Russ points out, someone has to grab it by the scruff of the neck, lead it, expose it and most of all develop it. (I say someone as you don't always need a committee!)
Develop it? Class structures that may well attract the Historic guys in, or alternatively, develop classes from the existing stock that does not yet qualify as historic, but is no longer competitive at the top level.
Of all the single seaters around over the years, there MUST be more FFs gathering dust than any other. As I see it, there is nothing wrong with older FF chassis sporting engines other than the venerable 1600cc Ford. Lets say you could fit any 1500cc or lower capacity engine into a FF chassis and race, whether that is limited by age or not or even source, is up to those who want to run.
One of the major reasons for my love of FJ's is that there is a variety of engines. It is also one of the reasons why the FF doesn't attract me, though I do support it. Different sounds as well as looks are an essential part of motorsport for me.
That of course Ray is one of the disadvantages of FFs in so far as they are a class that many people can't relate to, and to the untrained eye they all look the same. They also look slow and unspectacular but in actual fact have quicker lap times than all the classes you mentioned earlier in your post. Certainly from the drivers seat it doesn't seem slow or unspectacular,particularly when you are mixing it with several other drivers doing similar lap times.
But because they are not 'grocery baskets' you are not going to get spectators waving Mygale or Van Diemen or Spectrum flags at Tier 1 rounds as happens with Ford and Holden fans at some meetings. I think there needs to be some lateral thinking, or maybe just more effort, in trying to explain and promote the championship, and the drivers, to the great unwashed. So that they can understand the finer points of the competition and relate to the drivers and their efforts.
The drivers too are often their own worst enemies when it comes to promoting themselves and the class. All the cars look the same to Joe Public and if they are browsing in the pits and they haven't got a program handy they don't know what they are looking at or whose car it is because the make of the car is seldom on it and the drivers name usually almost needs a magnifying glass to read it! This does nothing to develop spectator interest in the class.
Personally I don't think this is a good idea, the Kent engine is admirably suited for classic/historic racing where you don't need the last 5 hp. It is cheap and reliable and of course original.
Have to agree that the FFs all sound the same and are much too quiet so certainly don't sound fast either. Maybe we should make megaphones mandatory.....
Last edited by Russ Noble; 04-12-2013 at 05:36 AM.
Nothing there I disagree with Russ. Speed has never been the issue, with FFs, but speed is always relative anyway. If cars look similar, and also sound similar, when only an expert can tell which is which (and I certainly can't, even though I have been a spectator since FF began), then trying to educate Joe average on the finer points is not going to be very easy. You are 100% correct, you are not going get people waving Elden/Crossle/Valour flags, which then means you have to come up with fairly full grids, as we have all seen fantastic wheel to wheel dices over the years.
The reason for suggesting a class with alternative engines was to try and get different sounds and also might encourage the builders as well as the drivers.
Formula Libre in the UK in the 1960s used to have everything from Chris Summers V8 Cooper (before F5000's) down to F500's and everything in between and it was great to see some original stuff out there. Having 50% of the field in true FF's and the balance with other single seaters, was just a suggestion, as some lateral thinking is obviously required.
If I may ‘waffle on’ a bit here, Motor racing at a club (non sponsored level) has changed a lot from where I started in the late 50’s.
I have records of receiving 5 quid for finishing 3rd in a hill climb back then. Nowadays as driver I accept that it is pay, pay, pay for the privilege to drive.
So we now have ‘The interest of the Paying driver’, ’The interest of the Club/promoter’.
I really don’t care if there is nobody coming through the gate to pay if I am getting no discount.
Should we as Drivers who are paying for the privilege to race - in say our Formula Fords - worry about the noise and presentation. All I/we want to do is go out and have a good days racing as economically as possible – and as far as I am concerned Formula Ford offers that. I am also very aware that one of the bottom lines of this forum is ‘The Future’ and balancing ‘The Old’ and ‘The New’.
If there was going to be some return in the form of Prize money from the Club/promoter, who had gone out and organised sponsorship then I would paint the car in whatever colour they wanted, and as politically incorrect as it is, have it make a noise.
Great attitude Wal.
Now if you are going to do SIFF next season I would like to request that your car be painted nipple pink!
I don't give a shit about political correctness, but unfortunately excessive noise will eventually cause the demise of many of the tracks as they become besieged by urban sprawl! The end of motor racing as we know it. We don't really want to be party to that.
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