Roycroft Trophy 2013

[AMCO72]

I don't think Jim's Wolseley is quite the sort of machine that organisers are thinking about when discussing pre 60 saloons. Jim was out there to WIN.....nothing else, although the car LOOKED quite standard from a few paces, and he was a fearsome competitor......I was up against him a few times in the late 80's.

So Jims' is an example of a pre 60 saloon looking ok, but under the skin.....no sir, and I'm not sure how you would control this sort of thing. If it looks ok....no mags etc then what is the problem, because I assure you there are 'other Jims' out there.
The car that I would like to turn into a pre 60 saloon racer is the Austin A95/105. Shove a Healy 100 6 engine in, put some decent shocks on and stand aside buddy, Im coming through.

But you are right ERC.......where are all those old saloons now. A few, very few have ended up in the VCC, but not that many really when you consider how many used to be running around on our roads. Some got their browns at 'butchers picnic' meetings at the local speedway, but most just ended their days resting in piece under a tree, or resting in pieces in a junk yard, and have probably come back to NZ as baked bean cans......

John, when you describe those funny foreign jobs as 'frisky', do you mean their handing, or lack of it, or their performance, or lack of it!!!

[Kiwiboss]

What really stops that class or a pre 1960 saloons class here, is that nowadays, far too many cars have either been scrapped or turned into concours trailer Queens and for many years, there has not been any racing continuity in NZ for them - certainly not since I arrived in 1983. I think the only pre 1960 car we have ever had on our books is John Ure's Mk 7 Jag - and that is carrying a 4.2 engine and smaller wheels...

Classic saloons as such have just been whittled away over time, but to create a resurgence now of fairly original or mildly modified pre 1960's, I would suggest, is nigh on impossible. Somehow or other, we have let a whole class or era slip away and that is very sad

So true Ray, the old engish cars just arn't around like they use to be, even myself i grew up with Zephrs, A35's, anglias, 100E's etc and these were cheap and the hot ticket in the late 70's when i was a teenager doing my mechanics apprenticeship, but today you just don't see them let alone make a classic race car out of one!! which is a shame because they were so many on the scene in early NZ motor racing.

This is why HMC still has some time left and we looked pretty hard at those facts!! the cars are still avaliable in America in large numbers(slowly dissappearing) because they made so many and most from the south western states still in mint rot free condition, they have a huge aftermarket parts industry and most parts are interchangeable amongst models, its not that im stating this is were everyone should go as i too still luv the british cars but the substainablity for US made 60's and 70's vehicles is quite easy and cheap and looking to the future can be substained as a historic racing class for sometime yet.

Thats why when Gerald stated moving VCC out to 1965 for Saloons my first thought was a 64.5 Mustang, easy and affordable but would probably have a devastating effect on the group. They have it right by leaving it 1960 but probably have a vanishing group on there hands, shame really

Interesting times ahead for classic and historic racing

Dale M

[fullnoise68]

A 64.5 Mustang Dale. One of those wouldn`t be too hard to find!

[RogerH]

Pre 1960s saloons at Goodwood 2012 (they are far from "standard" or period modifications).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEIDnb5XYEc

[John McKechnie]

Gerald- You know the Euros -French, Italians- always think they are lively and that the Brits are stodgey like porridge. Ever driven a Singer SM ?
Also Dale makes a good point - Australian cars from 50s, 60, 70s have rust problems-look at my XA coupe and Monaro. I had a Wolseley 15/50 it needed huge rust work to anything with it. No panels available.
American cars that are being used are real no brainers- you can buy the new panels.Quick turn around and on the track.
Most Brit cars are a long term resto, I should know, I had a MK1 Jaguar.
It could take many years to actually assemble suitable cars with the body work involved. After all , good cars get restored .Not flash ones get turned into race cars, as they are too expensive to restore.

[AMCO72]

Ah, the Singer SM1500........when they first arrived in NZ in the early 50's my Dad, bless him, had his surgery in ChCh next door to Tench Bros, who were the Singer agents. So of course he had to have a test drive. I think at that stage we owned an A40 which was purchased just around the corner from Tench Bros at Croziers. Now you could hardly call the A40 an exciting machine, but the Singer was even less so, although it did have a rather interesting OHC engine......a development of my old 1928 Singer Junior. [see Y & Y]

Sadly, or perhaps not, I didn't get to drive one, but many years later a friend in Cambridge, Michael Swayne had one, and I went for occasional rides in this beast. We both belonged to the Cambridge Repertory Society, and he used to pull a trailer behind the Singer when we were picking up sets for plays. My abiding memory is of being gassed in the cabin by exhaust fumes. Michael was not a wealthy man, and he had 'repaired' the exhaust system with a length of vacuum cleaner hose which was not terribly gas tight to say the least, and had burnt the outer fabric coating off leaving the springy tube to do the work!!!!!

[Kiwiboss]

Pre 1960s saloons at Goodwood 2012 (they are far from "standard" or period modifications).

Why do you say that RogerH? im sure hidden behind the scene "modern thinking" has made them quicker but they appear to be "Standard" and/or "Period correct Modifications" such as skinny wheels, complete correct body work with bumpers, headlights, non flares, full interior(EG: inside shoot of Jag) etc, but this is only visual to me so i can only arsume they are correct under the bonnet, gearbox, diff, brakes, etc? correct me if im wrong!! but really that is a fantastic race and would truly luv to see this in NZ at a pre 60 VCC event.

Dale M

[AMCO72]

'Standard'....yeh right.......notice all the body roll!!!!!!!!! NO........... Listen to those A40 engines......not quite standard in there either. I would say these machines have been heavily modified. OK they are still on narrowish tyres, but everything else has had a tuners touch. So, they still have full trim......that's to fool the scrutineer!!!!!LoL

But hey, good, and fast racing......the poor old STANDARD Auntie Rover stuggling along at the back. Don't worry he will be back next year suitably hotted up!!!!

[RogerH]

These cars at Goodwood in the St Mary's Trophy race may look standard but they are very highly modified in mechanical aspects - for example the A40 Farinas and A35s have 1380cc (or more) trick engines - in period (pre 1960) they only had 948cc. I think the philosophy is to have them looking like standard cars but performing like they are on steroids. As a result these cars are very expensive to build.

[John McKechnie]

'Standard'....yeh right.......notice all the body roll!!!!!!!!! NO........... Listen to those A40 engines......not quite standard in there either. I would say these machines have been heavily modified. OK they are still on narrowish tyres, but everything else has had a tuners touch. So, they still have full trim......that's to fool the scrutineer!!!!!LoL

But hey, good, and fast racing......the poor old STANDARD Auntie Rover stuggling along at the back. Don't worry he will be back next year suitably hotted up!!!!

Was that Hammond from Top Gear?

[ERC]

So Jims' is an example of a pre 60 saloon looking ok, but under the skin.....no sir, and I'm not sure how you would control this sort of thing. If it looks ok....no mags etc then what is the problem, because I assure you there are 'other Jims' out there.
The car that I would like to turn into a pre 60 saloon racer is the Austin A95/105. Shove a Healy 100 6 engine in, put some decent shocks on and stand aside buddy, Im coming through.

Andy Culpin was ahead of you there AMCO, but I think he has changed tack and now wants to do a Sebring MGC instead...

We used to have problems with Jim's car, as the MSNZ manual was contradictory. On one page, it stated that original block and head materials had to be used and on the next, that period mods were allowed. With an alloy crossflow head as a period mod, it was tricky.

Jim's "must win" attitude was why we changed the BMC/BL Series to an invitation only one and two handicaps. Sorry to say, but the finger pointing and "illegal" engines were common even then, and much as people would like absolute authenticity, enforcing it is all against the spirit anyway, so choccy fish racing (may change the name of our Series...) is better to be self policed by the drivers and if one 1957 Wolseley 1500 goes like stink and a Riley 1.5 in standard trim is heaps is slower, so be it. It is all a bit like cheating at golf, a bit pointless really unless you are up front about it.

I'd be rapt to see a pre 1960's saloon's grid out there at Roycroft even if the cars weren't 100% kosher, as at least the spectators would know what these older saloons looked like, even if not fully au fait with the finer points. We don't want V8 Magnettes, V8 Zephyrs, Morrari recreations out there, but twin carb A35s and Morris Minors or even triple carb Zephyrs and Westminsters I have no problem with at all.

[Kiwiboss]

These cars at Goodwood in the St Mary's Trophy race may look standard but they are very highly modified in mechanical aspects - for example the A40 Farinas and A35s have 1380cc (or more) trick engines - in period (pre 1960) they only had 948cc. I think the philosophy is to have them looking like standard cars but performing like they are on steroids. As a result these cars are very expensive to build.

True RogerH but in today's world we all have the knowledge(modern thinking) to make older cars faster but hide it, once only the factory had this knowledge!! Engine piston, ring, bearing and cylinder head air flow technology has allowed anyone of us to take these old girls and make them perform like never before(as in this case, on "Steroids"), but as long as they are within the historic rules or set out schedule this group races under(today) i don't see a problem. Even just suspension and shock absorber knowledge has probably made these old girls quick, the disc pad material alone would make them stop like never before, so as long as everyone can have it. As for cost, this is all in ones interpretation, alot of $$$ to one person may mean little to another, this can never be stopped!! but by making the rules of ALL is about all one can do. Hell, after-all i race against a damn Mini on steroids at the Festival, when others say my Mustang is too quick i "shrug my shoulders" and say HEY, damn near got beatin by a Mini so can't be, LOL

Dale M

[John McKechnie]

Just remember to take the hand brake off, always helps.
You can handle it when its a Mini, what about when Angus is in the Morris 1100 sedan?

[AMCO72]

OK, went to the Roycroft festival today. Entries were down a bit on last year but still a good turnout. All the usual 'funny' people that compete at these VCC type events.......sorry oldfart, but all ready willing and able to have a chat about their beloved machines.
Our very own oldfart was having some good runs in his A7, and caught up with 'gbnz' doing his stuff.

Last year for the lunch time parade I took an old fella from a rest-home, this year I was treated to Ron Roycrofts great grand-children, two little girls and their Mum, so that was a bit special. They enjoyed 'speeding' round in an 'old car'.....the MG 1100, and were hanging on tight in the corners!!!!

Browsed the second-hand and new book stalls, and of course made a purchase......a signed edition of 'Wilkie'..... Wilkie Wilkinson........motoracing legend from the old days, and racing manager to some very famous teams and drivers.

Fairly small crowd today, but should improve tomorrow. I'm sure there were some photographers there who hopefully will post on here.

[ERC]

I have Wilkie Wilkinson's autograph on the same card as Jackie Stewart, Graham Hill, Raymond Mays, Richard Attwood, Tony Brooks Cyril Atkins, Peter Berthon!

Sorry I couldn't get today AMCO. Wife still not too good first thing. Hopefully, I'll make it tomorrow for a couple of hours.

Sun: Sadly, not to be. The rain doesn't help. Ah well. Will just have to look forward to next year instead and hope it will be even bigger and better.

[AMCO72]

And looking at the fields today I was thinking what a great addition to the meeting a grid of pre60 saloon cars would be. Nice mix of open and closed cars. Probably 95% of cars at the Roycroft are open......a couple of FHC's........XK150 and Lotus Elan......but to be honest the Lotus looked too modern compared to its race buddies. An advanced car for its day and looking streets ahead of the opposition. Was beaten by the Lycoming and a Formula J....... they are grouped in years, but certainly stood out amongst the chrome radiator brigade.

One day............

[ERC]

Wouldn't that be Tony Herbert's Lotus Elite AMCO? An Elan would be too new. There was a time in the UK when just about the whole under 1300cc sports/GT grid was Lotus Elites. I have one race programme where there was a full grid of 14 cars at Mallory Park and 13 were Elites!

[AMCO72]

Yes ERC, that is what, and who it was. Went like stink and as I say was only bettered by the Lycoming and a Formula Junior.

Is interesting to see that the big V12 Lagonda lapped the slowest car in its race TWICE !!!!!!!!!!!A big speed differential in all the races between slowest and fastest, and cars were seldom together 'racing', so very little chance of contact, which was good.

[PhotoSmith]

Photos from yesterday....pre '60 races

[PhotoSmith]

Pre '45 group....