NEW CLASS / SERIES; Historic Sports Sedans. formation meeting.20/04/13 ACC

[Frosty5]

Well Johnny that was a nice little attempt to lay all this on me, its a shame theres just a nasty little thing called the facts to get in its way. Firstly after talking to people about these old cars and finding there was interest in starting a class I canvassed everyone as to would they run their cars if I could arrange a series for them to run in beginning September and could they make the first meeting. 80% said yes, and no I was not holding a gun to their head. So much for the " came together very quickly and needed time to get ready.
second "and the seal went on him and didnt race at the first meeting" Hello Johnny I paid my entry fee and was there and did practice!! Yes I should have had the car for a test day but instead I was slacking, rebuilding the engine and fitting it back into my daughters car and helping my son with the gearbox in his Falcon, having to buy and organize 2 other cars and drivers to run them because I was worried I was going to be let down, run my electrical business, correspond with all the others (email and phone), try and help with my 84 yr old mothers failing health issues, liaise with the car club, and try to finish my car with my sons help in the 2 last days, finally loading it in the transporter 1.30am Saturday night!!! and what were you doing at that time Johnny!! Oh and by the way you announced Barry needed a new radiator AFTER I had said on this forum that I had bought the 2 cars. and so what does that mean , that I should pay for everyone's parts so they can go racing!!!!! And yes after sidchrome declining both times I put Sheweiry on the car cause I couldn't afford to be sued by them if they really didn't want it on. So tell me again how I let this deal down, Didnt do enough Maybe!!! So thanks very much for let me see, what was your quote for the owners of these cars??? Oh thats right some respect and support!!

I am stunned by the opening line of a members comments (Last post is demeaning, belittling and insulting- car owners not playing ball?) and need to comment. Unless I am sadly mistaken this is a "I told you so" line and it pains me to see that a fellow member has the temerity to comment like that. You put in a monumental effort to get this class up and running only to be let down by those who were so enthusiastic at the beginning. I guess they all have their reasons for not fronting up and that is something that needs to be accepted, unpalatable as it may be. But I think those who witnessed the initial debut of the class were mightily impressed and you should take heart from that. This was not a failure in my view but more of a speed bump. While I am not suggesting for one moment this should happen to you I think the sentiments are apt given the previous outburst.
"To do something well is so worthwhile that to die trying to do it better cannot be foolhardy. It would be a waste of life to do nothing with one's ability, for I feel that life is measured in achievement, not in years alone. Bruce McLaren.
And by God you certainly have achieved in life George. Take care, chin up and look forward.
Best regards
Dave Graham

[George Sheweiry]

Look thanks for those kind words Dave, and to all the others who have said kind things. Its very humbling to hear such praise but that was not my reason for doing this, its just that it seemed like it was what everyone wanted, hey including myself, to have these neat old cars out there. I guess as well it is good to have criticisms as well as then you can readdress the issue and of course make changes to anything you may have missed or not thought of but that is not easy to listen to either as you can see from my reaction. I am a car guy, always have and always will be and yes I now move away from this "exercise" as I have completely run out of ideas to get these people motivated and their cars out there, so my use to this proposed series is at an end for me and this is only because I am one of those dumb "do it guys", I virtually dont have a social life as I find it hard to relax, that's why you never see me at the pub or out and about other than things to do with cars or my family. Boring Aye! but that is one of my failings, I am also not one bit PC but if you want my opinion you will get it, not done with mirrors and shadows and as well, if I have something to say I say it, so Sorry to anyone I have unwittingly offended. But any way enough of me and what could be and couldn't etc. Thanks of course to Steve Holmes we have a great information channel that is a good way indeed of thrashing all this old stuff about and I think enough has been said about all this and again thank you all for the heart felt support but it is time to move on and forward and you never know something may eventually happen, Fingers crossed aye. Regards, Shrewsberry.

[ERC]

Rome wasn't built in a day...

Maybe some people expect too much too soon? I can undertstand ACC's position, but we all know that there is a need for this class as I said before, it is the missing link. It is the only class of cars I can think of, that currently doesn't have a place to race.

Maybe I should take a long hard look at our own two groups as if our own active numbers don't increase, then maybe we can push a few of the slower guys in the fast group, down in to the slower group to re-boost their numbers and create another class within the faster group.

Then the issue would probably be (from both groups), "No, we racers with our older race saloons, don't want to race against Porsches, MGB V8s, TR7 V8s, Capris (6 & 8 cyl), Ferrari etc", and our Sports/GT drivers running on road tyres, might well object to racing against race cars on slicks...

The other logical mix - and probably more sensible is for the race saloons to race with the Historic Muscle Cars as in both cases, the numbers are not yet there. Steve, Dale and Tony have a solid set of rules for their own cars, but at this stage, they cannot yet field a cost effective grid. Surely this is the most logical step forward as even with the vast pubicity the HMC has had over the last couple of years, on here and in print - plus backing from the Historic Commission, being realistic, the reality of a consistently cost effective grid in the future is still some time away.

I may get shot down for this, but at the real end of the day, race meetings do have to be cost effective and if drivers can't cope with another class of cars sharing "their grid", the answer has been noted earlier. No one (or two or even three) driver(s) is bigger than the class and let's not forget it.

The U3L grid shares the track with the HMC at non-series meetings. The commonality however is not the cars, it is the CoD or the perceived rules.

[touringcarfan]

I wish to apologise for my comment regarding drivers playing ball. It was said based on my simple philosophy of `if you make a commitment you stick to it`. This may have been a bit harsh and I really don`t go out of my way to offend people, so sorry.

Anthony

[Rod Grimwood]

"sharing" a grid in some form with HMC on a meeting by meeting basis is something that has crossed my mind, while both have smaller numbers. . Maybe something along the line of starting each class with a half lap space.? and only with the blessing or invite from HMC so as not to offend.

Just got computer back after 2 weeks and been away so bit behind

This email answer I sent to some of the guys tonight. just my way of looking at it.

Roger you are thinking in the direction I have been.

Copy email;

Guy's for what it is worth my thoughts are:

This will not happen over night, (it hasn't) and if as cars become ready/available and they appear at classic meetings (who will put them in some class to have a run) and the numbers pick up then the groups running the meetings will make room available to run the cars.
The reality is at the moment, you will have to run with later (or re-engined) similar cars that are quicker, but I think just to run the car and don't worry about how fast others are and look after your cars is the priority. I do not think the realistic motorsport person would expect the 'Siddy', 'Charger', or 'Alfetta' to be quicker than the 'Merc' or later Trans Ams but will pay more attention to them. I believe, Just run the cars as time and money will allow to finish them, and some people who have other commitments at different times, cut them some slack, as they will (already do) run at classic meetings and you will all end up together.

I am only a small player and only filled out fields in old days, but when I do run my car it will be a real slug as I do not have the latest tech engine etc. I will be against Lotus twin cams which make alot more now than old days, and Cosworths etc.

But will have my chilly bin as in old days.

Lets just chill and get on with what we are doing.

Cheers
Rod Grimwood

[rogered]

Wise words

[ERC]

The reality is at the moment, you will have to run with later (or re-engined) similar cars that are quicker, but I think just to run the car and don't worry about how fast others are and look after your cars is the priority.

And that gentleman is it in a nutshell. It is not now and never has been and never will be, a level playing field. The other cars can't all be quicker so there is a natural grouping by lap times. As long as no one expects to get the vacant seat at McLaren and gives everyone racing room, all is sweet.

[AMCO72]

Rod,I think you are selling yourself a bit short there when you say that 'you only filled out fields in the old days'.

In my experience it is the Guys that 'only filled out the fields' that had the best racing, while the Hot-Shots roared off into the distance!
The racing would be pretty damn boring if there were not the `'amateurs'......read impecunious.......competitors providing most of the thrills, and yes spills, of racing.

As ERC says........'it is not now, never has been, and never will be a level playing field. How true. Viva the 'Field Fillers'!!!!!!!

[George Sheweiry]

Rod,I think you are selling yourself a bit short there when you say that 'you only filled out fields in the old days'.

In my experience it is the Guys that 'only filled out the fields' that had the best racing, while the Hot-Shots roared off into the distance!
The racing would be pretty damn boring if there were not the `'amateurs'......read impecunious.......competitors providing most of the thrills, and yes spills, of racing.

As ERC says........'it is not now, never has been, and never will be a level playing field. How true. Viva the 'Field Fillers'!!!!!!!

You are dead right there Gerald. I would doubt whether there was any more than a couple of tenths in driving ability between the whole field. Its just that probably 90% of the guys were there doin it out of their back pockets and probably didn't give a toss where they finished but they did what they could with what they had. Also car setup etc was so secretive most of those guys were doing a bloody good job driving bad handling cars! That's why I liked the handicap races so much cause 1/ it was great to watch instead of a procession and 2/ it gave those guys a chance. It always used to annoy me watching a race and someone was saying oh look how slow that guy is, he should'nt be out there, but he was out there and not sitting on his ass but giving it a go. Good on the Battlers!!

[Ellis]

Mid fielders have all the fun and can see the race and be part of it.

The leader just has an open track and no cars ....

Handicap stuff is lots more interesting for all concerned as George said.

Ellis

[ERC]

Spot on. Which is one of the major reasons I have given up racing at the Festival meetings at Hampton Downs.

Running around in glorious isolation at or near the very back the back of the field - even if you have beaten your best time ever - is no fun at all. You don't see another car for 5 or 6 of the 8 laps then the leaders just gobble you up and you finish the race having only completed 7 laps. I'd rather pay $135 and do a Play Day, or, one of our series races, or, take photographs of the nice cars at the Festival.

If I finish last in a handicap race, I still get 8 laps and I generally have the mirrors full for most of the race and I feel part of the action.

[AMCO72]

I know I have gone on about handicap races since 'Auntie fell off the tram' !!!!!!!! I have seen some of the best racing EVER under a handicap system, so WHY are so many people against it. Surely it cant be THAT hard to work out handicaps. Ok, so you aren't going to get it dead right, because of all sorts of reasons, but it will be near enough.

Watching those hard chargers working their way through the field, while those they are trying to catch are doing their best to keep in front has made for some very memorable battles.

And don't tell me it is dangerous. For one thing it avoids that mad scramble at the first few corners in a scratch race.

If we don't get some handicap type racing in the future, I am predicting that cars that usually run at the back of the field will slowly drop away, never to return.

I have spent some time myself being tail-end Charlie, and have spoken to other drivers in the same situation. Without exception they have all said how surprised they were at the speed difference between them and the front runners.

We are all being told that we are out there to have fun, well I can tell you it is NO fun at the back, especially when you get lapped.

[Ellis]

At Baskerville Historics (Its in Tassie for George's benefit) each Oct, they have for the last race of the 2nd day , a handicap 10 lapper called the Boss of Baskerville.
Apart from the field sometimes being slightly depleted after 2 days of racing the spectators in the main stay on till its over.
It can have Improved Production , Sports Sedans , HQ's and Historic Grp N cars all out together.
Its well worth watching.

[Jac Mac]

I know I have gone on about handicap races since 'Auntie fell off the tram' !!!!!!!! I have seen some of the best racing EVER under a handicap system, so WHY are so many people against it. Surely it cant be THAT hard to work out handicaps. Ok, so you aren't going to get it dead right, because of all sorts of reasons, but it will be near enough.

Watching those hard chargers working their way through the field, while those they are trying to catch are doing their best to keep in front has made for some very memorable battles.

And don't tell me it is dangerous. For one thing it avoids that mad scramble at the first few corners in a scratch race.

If we don't get some handicap type racing in the future, I am predicting that cars that usually run at the back of the field will slowly drop away, never to return.

I have spent some time myself being tail-end Charlie, and have spoken to other drivers in the same situation. Without exception they have all said how surprised they were at the speed difference between them and the front runners.

We are all being told that we are out there to have fun, well I can tell you it is NO fun at the back, especially when you get lapped.

That sounds like really good plan Gerald, rather than creating a whole heap of 'new' class's with the constant difficulty of decent field numbers, just start a 'classic' handicap series where all types are catered for. First race for any competitor at any circuit if they have no previous lap times they go off the back of the handicap or perhaps something like 20 seconds should cut down on any first time out hedging and let the new boys dial themselves in, shouldnt be difficult to get good fields with a larger pool to draw from..

[ERC]

We have run our series 100% on handicaps for 17 out of the last 18 seasons.

I keep an historical record of lap times at each track for each car/driver combination. On race day, race one is never a points race, always a scratch race.

Races 2 & 3 are for series points and are handicaps. My system uses a mix of current times and historical, at a ratio of anything from 5:0 to 0:5. A bit of massaging is often applied if a driver has had it too easy, or had problems, but overall, it works pretty well. Sure, a yellow flag or safety car intervention can stuff it up, as can a driver who has struggled with a misfire and suddenly resolves it.

Needless to say we COULD apply a rule whereby you can't beat your previous best time that weekend by more than a specified %, but why bother? It is chocolate fish racing and if people don't like the structure, or don't drive with respect for the other drivers, then they can play in someone else's sandpit.

In terms of eligibility, it has always been a pragmatically applied Euro 'road' series, which is why we need this race series, as road and race cars don't mix too well.

[Peter Nelson]

Hi Folks, been a while since I managed to log on here, but is there any chance the historic sports sedans will race in the coming season again? There is a great group of cars and hopefully they will get to race this season. Any information wouldl be really appreciated

[John McKechnie]

Peter- the guys who ran in the Historic Sports Sedans at HD in Jan and March want to do it again and will be running Ice Breaker at HD mid September- see HSS at Ferrari meeting thread for info. Glad you appreciated the show, and hope you and others can come along.