MSNZ - Schedule K and T&C and maybe FIA HTP related questions info etc

[nzeder]

I agree - like a Datsun Z with a V8 should be built like a true Sarab was back in the day to be called a classic. However targa has it own set of rule outside of the T&C, Schedule K stuff does it not?

Is this part of the problem? Should T&C which I think are good KISS set of rules that are applied to any class that want to hold a classic field/grid etc. Then the series organizers can make rules that are tighter not looser around T&C? If cars are entered ie the said Avenger, Renault A110 which would surely conform to K cars rules should be classed as such? Therefore run as they did against car as they did in a K cars group then other "classic" run under the T&C - anything outside of that goes into the groups the series organizers wishes but are not called "classics"

The Datsun I have as track car was getting built as a Targa car by the PO - it had modern brake setup, modern Nissan 6 cylinder engine (still over 20 years old and to be honest a good old L6 that was factory fitted to a Datsun can be made to go just as well as the later DOHC version in NA form - turbo....well different ball game). I am going back to T&C or Schedule K hence starting this thread to make sure I understand the rules before I spend more $$ and time over winter getting ready for September.

Not really sure what the answer is hence the starting of this thread also so we can all discuss issues/rules etc.

If you look at T&C putting K cars aside for a bit. What is wrong with the rules as they stand today? Anything? Rays grid does not enforce a COD yet I believe more than 2/3 have COD's surely that tells a story - it is mostly working. So what needs to be addressed if at all to make the remaining 1/3 conform?

Is the issue a little more complex?

K cars rules are great for standard unmodified car - so that box is ticked.
K cars rules are great for "the car" or new builds built 100% period correct as they ran "internationally" - did some more reading and that is what I get from the Appendix K stuff it must have run in that configuration at an FIA international event - not a national event. so that box is ticked.
T&C is for us Kiwi's that like to modify our cars - within a given set of rules ie period brakes, limited by tyre size and aspect ratio for the pre 78 groups with more mods allowed to the engines vs the later groups - that is all in the aim of keeping the grids at a level playing field. T&C is not locked down to as raced in period at an international event. You just have to prove that somewhere in the world the car was raced like it was with X and Y.

Currently under T&C you have to run both drivers and passengers seats - yet some grids under their series rules allow the removal of the passengers seats etc. So this comes back the bit in bolt above (someone else idea not mine but I like it) is it currently backwards? Should T&C allow the removal of the passengers seat then if a series organizer does not like that rule they can "tighten" the rules under their series but not go "looser". If we have groups under T&C for pre 78 with X mods but no room for engine conversions from the same manufacture aka Fiat story above - out side of T&C rules as the engine is too large - yet this is what we have seen happen at the tracks time and time again. So can this be fixed? Sure there is the hard nosed - not T&C go away....or should this be allow that but then the group changes? ie a 1971 once was 1600cc Fiat which would have been group 2 under T&C now with its 1995cc has to be moved into group 4 - where the group 4 rules now apply? I guess the tricky bit comes to brakes and suspension. Under pre 78 brake can be upgraded but the post 77 to 15 years old can't change - only pads can be changed. Now lets take a YB power Escort or a Alfa with later twin spark engine. So as a result of the conversion only 1.5mm overbore is now permitted and this Alfa or Escort now has to follow the group 3 and 4 rules. If a series organizer does not want repowers - he locks down his series rules to stop that.

The only one thing I can say about the above is for any pre 78 car with an engine conversion or not the wow should be managed and maybe a simple rule if the chassis is pre 78 15" rims is the bar nothing higher even if used in period - if you want to run with the larger rims in period then go K car racing and be 100% period correct. Then allow brake upgrades that will fit within the 15" rims using period style calipers - however the rest of the later group rules apply.

Anyway guys looking for more thoughts and comments keep this alive.

[ERC]

Fair comments above, but let's not get too tangled up in terminology as a means for either banning or accepting any car. I fail to understand why the Morrari or Zephyr Corvette is lauded as a piece of NZ history; a single-seater built out of period bits last year is OK; but a saloon built out of period bits is not. In other words, you couldn't put that Ferrari engine in the Zephyr as it wasn't done in period.

I really don't care what you call a Triumph Herald coupe with period Rover V8, as run in Targa for several years, but whether you call it a Hot Rod, a Retro Classic or an orphan, shouldn't bar the owner from driving it on a race track if he so wishes. As long as he drives it to a standard acceptable to the classic fraternity, that is fine by me as it is a far more honest car than a F5000 with illegal heads, or a schedule K car driven like a fairground dodgem.

Therefore whether we use the word "classic" or not, is somewhat irrelevant. What is important is that overall, we present decent sized grids of cars where there is a degree of mutual respect between drivers, regardless of the car.

[nzeder]

ERC fair call - way can't a 70's Escort be powered by a 70's Rover V8 for that matter - it could have been done by someone in period like you say just because it did not happen does not make a car any more illegal than a Morrari.

Is that not was MSNZ Schedule CR is all about? Has anyway tried to get a Saloon/Sport & GT approved under CR? I know CR looks to be around single seaters but could we not have T&C which is all about the Saloon/Sport & GTs with a CR like component to it maybe a group 5 and 6 with rules allowing these type of Retrospective Specials and Replica's that could have been build in the day.

[Spgeti]

Hello nzeder, this is a great thread and bound to get all sorts of opinions. I own a 1974 105 series Alfa Romeo GTV 2000. I last raced the car in 2007 and put it all aside to get my health in order and now I am well and ready to bring it out again to play with. The car was originally built to T&C and I would like to continue along that line. Having fun is my kick and not winning at all cost. Yes ERC, Ray, I belong to the Alfa Romeo Owners Club NZ, known as AROCNZ. The Alfa Trofeo Racing series have their own rules which cater for a wide varity of cars with different modifications to suit their classes. For me living in the Manawatu and apart from one meeting held at Manfield which is organised by AROC Manawatu Branch they are in my opinion a North of the Bombay thing.
Don't get me wrong I respect what they do and have many good friends amongst the Trofeo members.
My problem is that down here we are limited to the MG meetings and the Manawatu Winter Series that cater for us. The rules of Trofeo do not match the rules of MG and The Winter Series for my car.
If I was to build my car to K that would involve a fair bit of research and cost so for me keeping as T&C is my option. My car is not heavily modified and has standard body and interior, but well modified twin cam. If I was to replicate a GTAm 2000 a correct 2ltr engine is $60 thousand Euro,........mmmmm.
Twin Sparks are not correct, being manufactured 1986 with variable cams and not avaliable in 105s or Alfettas and in my interpretation not even allowed in T&C. (Nor are 16 valve Boxers in Suds and Sprints since the manufacture date is 1990 and only made for the Series 3 Alfa 33.)
They are allowed in the Trofeo rules and that is fine for their Series and I can appreciate the reasons, lack of avalibility and parts for the Boxer but that also applies to the 16 valve.
The Twin Cam, all parts are still avaliable be it at a cost along with the majority of parts for the 105.
I really like Howards BMW and wish you all the best with the 240Z

[Kiwiboss]

Keep it up guys, this is a great thread!! im keeping and eye on you all, LOL

Still in keeping with K, T&C but more to do with meeting events themselves! one of the problems i've seen with the NZ Classic and Historic scene over the years is that most event organizers don't control the legality of the groups!! its sort of like "lets scoop all the entries up" and divide them like chopping up a apple!!Hmmm whether the control should be done with the event organsers or MSNZ H&C commission i don't know, but something needs to be done!! in Australia(some on here may know more correctly) i believe CAMS wont even issue a permit for a C&H event unless the cars are correct to the "rules" when when entering!! they won't even let non-period signage on these old girls!! Do we need do the same?

Dale M

[ERC]

And therein lies the stumbling block Spgeti. I believe Alfa run a set of rules that are practical and pragmatic, but not 100% within the current T & C.

They are the surely the acknowledged experts as to what is viable, affordable and practical but above all sustainable, for Alfas. Because they sit outside the T & C/CoD system. It means that there are events to which they are not a good fit as a class. The same applies to the ERC series. They can live with it as we can. Both series have more than enough invitations to sufficient events to make a viable series and the same applies to BMW who seem able to transcend meetings from Tier 1 to "classic" one day clubbies, HRC meetings to annual Hampton Downs Festivals - without CoDs or an adherence to T & C. Race organisers make the overall rules and if they want to invite a specific series, they can - and do.

All three series have been criticised for NOT adhering to T & C and it is 100% up to race meeting promoters to decide whether to invite T & C or CoD compliant cars or not.

I think is sad Spgeti, that you have a car that would be acceptable in two popular, well supported series around here, but there are meetings in which you cannot run, even though to 99% of observers, your car is still a Fiat, powered by a Fiat engine.

To paraphrase Jaydee - "If it looks like an Alfa Romeo, it is an Alfa Romeo." If T & C rules exclude it, then maybe it is the T & C rules that need adjusting - though sadly, many see the T & C rules as sacrosanct, even where there are areas that have proven to be unworkable or unacceptable with some cars or marques.

I am not challenging the T & C rules as such nor demanding change, as we have now accepted that we are viable as we are, running just outside outside them.

[Allan]

Good thread guys with great information coming out.
The car I refer to is a FIAT 124 special T saloon with an engine capacity of 1592cc which would allow the use of the 1756cc twincam engine based on the 12.5% rule. The thoughts we have at the moment are to fit a FIAT 131 transmission (1975-83) and a Mazda diff. The brakes both front and rear would be FIAT but larger vented rotors at the front and larger rotor at the rear with calipers from FIATs of the late 1980s or early 90s. We would use 14 inch wheels (13 inch was standard). We are looking to build something that is reliable and safe that we could use for a variety of events without spending a huge fortune. We've already done that to achieve one good Targa finish in our FIAT 131R.
As an aside and not to highjack this thread Targa have a weird rule (my personal opinion) that places the car in a class/category according the last year of production which I find unusual as the way I see it the technology that built the car is normally 10 years or so before that.
Allan

[ERC]

Dale, I would shudder at the thought of any interference by MSNZ or the commission, poking their noses into what is working well - having just made a bank transfer to MSNZ for just on $2,500 from our April meeting!

Far from the race organisers "scooping up the entries" many invite specific groups (series) and therefore are bound by series rules of eligibility. If they were to try and pick and choose or interfere, then those series would go elsewhere - which has happened in the past.

Or, like the HD Festival, they elicit entries for conforming cars and allocate them to appropriate grids as they see fit. However, although entries may conform, the disparity or speed differentials within the grids is not acceptable to many of us and to be honest, at the recent festival, the driving standards left a lot to be desired with far too much car damage compared to a "normal" series meeting, where drivers know each other.

[nzeder]

I started this thread to

1. Make sure my understanding of the rules as they are is correct - tick I think I have the rules down.
2. Help me make a decision as to which direction I go with the car - K car or T&C - sort of tick I am still not sure which way to go. So time to ask more questions

At this point in time Spgeti I am learning towards T&C for much the same reasons.

I can't go K as a Standard Production Sports & GT as the car has mods done by the PO which are outside of the rule as I read them. The cage in the car goes front strut to rear strut and as mush as K rules don't focus on safety leaving that to the correct Schedule/Appendix it does state for that group the cage is not permitted to past thought the bulk head or finish near the suspension location point (going by memory this time). Plus it has a pedal box installed.

So that leaves K as a Competition Sport & GT car for the correct period which would be GT27 H1 for my 74 260z 2 seater - this does allow my to fit an L28 as approved in 7/75 without change the period or group for the car. I have the optional triple mikuni carbs and I have sourced the period works calipers (need rebuilding and new pistons + rotors are NLA). The car has adjustable suspension/coil overs/lower control arms etc so I am still researching what was done in period in this regard. Under MSNZ K I need to run 60 aspect ratio tyres yet under FIA K 15" and 570mm min total diamember aka 45/50 profile 15" come in larger than 570mm

Then T&C - body must be standard - check, period mods ie triple mikuni's, l28 check, adjustable suspension is ok check, brakes - I could run the works stuff or I can run other period calipers that were installed on the car and raced anywhere in the world. 15" rims with a 50 aspect ratio check .

So T&C is my lean right now as that is the cheaper option and the car with a pedal box and strut to strut cage fits those rules.

So my questions to those far more knowledgeable than I on these matters are.

1. Under FIA HTP or Schedule K is a pedal box permitted if used in period?
2. Why does the FIA Appendix K allow for 15" with 50 aspect ratio - fits in the min tyre diameter yet Schedule K states 60 aspect ratio.
3. Under K it states you can remove the heater and use another cateloged item for the made/model - but what if I want to remove the heater altogether and not have hot water from the engine bay inside near my feet - and just use a fan/blower for demisting only is this permitted?

Questions about T&C
1. T&C states Schedule AA for safety which also refers to Schedule A. Under Schedule A any liquid passing thought the cock pit is to be in a steel braid hose or hard line. If these lines pass thought a bulk head then a threaded bulk head fitting is to be used. So if I was to leave the heater in then my water which is a liquid inside the cock pit and passes through the firewall aka bulk head to the engine all this needs to be as stated. Is this correct?
2. Because of 1 this is why I want to remove the heater and again just run something for demist only and I can do this in T&C correct?

So it might be my personal desire not to have hot water from the engine bay that might dictate the class/path I go as T&C will allow it and if Schedule K or FIA Appendix K does not then T&C it will be

[Spgeti]

Yes ERC I agree with your summary of Alfa Trofeo rules.....they are made around what is sensible and what the trends are worldwide. Twinsparks are a logical solution to an ever disappearing twincam. While the 2ltrs twincam engines are still out there 1300s and 1600s are thin on the ground. What I don't like is the loss of oringinality and I have for several years considered it to be by some an easy way out.
The Trofeo Veloce Class is the closest to T&C but for me to run down here I have to be Bumpered where in Trofeo exemption is given to 105s to run as they were historically bumperless. Small thihg as it is but I find it quite annoying as bumpers are bloody near imposible to replace on the 105.
For us down here running our May Maddness Meeting we accept all comers as we need to fill the grids and this month had 25 Alfas on the grid.....all ages of cars and not one bump or damage after the day...smiles all round.
My car is correct in every part of T&C apart from the bumpers are removed.
I admire what you have done with your series over the many year but I also admire Dale and Steve for their strong stance with there rules with HMC....the yanks have all the parts to buy to achieve that desire where as us Itailians are at a disadvantage. Yes there are fewer 105s that come out to play these days and part of that are there increasing value.

[Carlo]

Good thread guys with great information coming out.
The car I refer to is a FIAT 124 special T saloon with an engine capacity of 1592cc which would allow the use of the 1756cc twincam engine based on the 12.5% rule. The thoughts we have at the moment are to fit a FIAT 131 transmission (1975-83) and a Mazda diff. The brakes both front and rear would be FIAT but larger vented rotors at the front and larger rotor at the rear with calipers from FIATs of the late 1980s or early 90s. We would use 14 inch wheels (13 inch was standard). We are looking to build something that is reliable and safe that we could use for a variety of events without spending a huge fortune. We've already done that to achieve one good Targa finish in our FIAT 131R.
As an aside and not to highjack this thread Targa have a weird rule (my personal opinion) that places the car in a class/category according the last year of production which I find unusual as the way I see it the technology that built the car is normally 10 years or so before that.
Allan

Running Schedule RH over a few things mentioned re the FIAT 124 special T saloon remembering that “The Period” Means prior to 1st January 1987. And that we have to look where the word “or” is used

4.3. Engine
(3) The original make of cylinder block and crankcase from the manufacturer of the vehicle or the homologated / Period option must be employed.
(4) The original make of cylinder head from the manufacturer of the vehicle or the
homologated / Period option must be employed. Modifications are free.

The thoughts we have at the moment are to fit a FIAT 131 transmission (1975-83)
4.4 Transmission:
(b) An homologated non OE option from an alternative vehicle of the Period, or
(c) An alternative transmission from the same vehicle manufacturer where the alternative transmission was fitted to a series production vehicle from that same manufacturer within the Period.

and a Mazda diff.
(3) Final drive: Free, provided that the original type of axle housing must be retained.

The brakes both front and rear would be FIAT but larger vented rotors at the front and larger rotor at the rear with calipers from FIATs of the late 1980s or early 90s.
4.6 Brakes:
(1) Dual circuit braking systems are permitted, as is the installation/removal of vacuum power assistance.
(2) Brake lining material and hydraulic hoses are free.
(3) Drum brakes may be replaced by Disc brakes. Rotors must be constructed only of ferrous material.
(4) Pedal boxes enabling adjustable brake bias are permitted.
(5) Hydraulic handbrakes are permitted.

We would use 14 inch wheels (13 inch was standard)
4.9 Road Wheels & Tyres:
(1) Wheel diameter may be varied by no more than two(2) sizes up or down from the
manufacturer’s specifications. Otherwise, wheels are free.

[ERC]

The Trofeo Veloce Class is the closest to T&C but for me to run down here I have to be Bumpered where in Trofeo exemption is given to 105s to run as they were historically bumperless. Small thing as it is but I find it quite annoying as
bumpers are bloody near impossible to replace on the 105.

Snap! The condition of the only bumpers I have for the MG detract from its appearance and I am not about to spend a couple of thousand dollars, getting them up to an accepable standard only for some wayward driver to bend them!

Which is why we have these niggling little hiccups. People making blanket rules need to understand that the chances of minor damage when racing, even with the high standards shown by the majority of classic racers, are generally to bumpers and impossible to source trims. (The H & C Commission have stated that they will grant an exemption for hard to source trims - but I presume that only extends to the application for a CoD.) Whilst you seem to be able to get absolutely anything for a Mini or an MGB (including a new shell), a Ford Mustang or Escort, the same cannot be said for many other makes. The last thing I want is for another bland grid of identical cars, forced upon us because the powers that be cannot see that the very essence of Classic racing is the sheer variety of vehicles presented, even to the extent of variations on a theme. ie 1300cc Escorts through to Gordon Burr's V8 Escort, Capri 2 litres to Perana V8 Capris, albeit most are not all that true to the original Peranas!

MG (Whittakers as was) is a prime example. They have always insisted on bumpers yet history shows that in many classes over the years, bumpers were removed, initially to save weight, but in the classic arena, it is to preserve the originality. The fact that MG always put on a well promoted and well supported meeting merely emphasises the point I made earlier. That is that the race organisers call the shots, not MSNZ and not the H & C Commission, so if we have a few cars that fall outside the requirements of two or three meetings a year, so be it.

The push for purity needs to be balanced by the commercial viability of a race meeting.

I too totally support Steve/Dale/Tony with their tight HMC rules, but it wouldn't work for us and it wouldn't work for some others and at this stage, HMC is still in a steady growth phase and has yet to achive financial viability as a stand alone grid. They are currently only doing 4 or 5 meetings a year.

[nzeder]

Even one of the most massed produced sports cars of it era - the Datsun 240z - has parts that are hard and almost impossible to obtain aka unobtainium unless you have big $$ to get a collector to part with them. Yes I am talking bumpers too. Once you could get parts from Nissan via Japan however more and more Nissan have retired the stock selling it off to private hands who sometimes will not part with them or only releasing parts bit by bit on a Japanese auction site for big $$.

Once you could just get a complete 260z 2+2 for parts at around $500-1500 but now they are ask up to $10,000 and a 240z (a good one) $20,000+

So even a car like the Datsun Z which was seen as an affordable classic is now becoming not affordable - I guess this might be why cars are in sheds? Parts are getting too $$ or hard to find? Sure it is ok if you can get new parts still that makes it much easier. I purchased a new bonnet from Nissan for my road car and that was $850 RRP and the first one they imported for me was damaged in transit so I refused to take it asking them to get another one - which they did and that too was damaged not as bad easy repair so I got a discount - I actually wanted another one I was not going to pay big $$ for damaged goods but I was told that was it they could not get another one out of Japan and that was 10 years ago. Front guards at the time were $450 RRP each and I have been told those too are NLA and that is front of the car that is shared between 2 seater and 2+2 version - rear of the car..well they have not been available for years.

[Spgeti]

I started this thread to



Questions about T&C
1. T&C states Schedule AA for safety which also refers to Schedule A. Under Schedule A any liquid passing thought the cock pit is to be in a steel braid hose or hard line. If these lines pass thought a bulk head then a threaded bulk head fitting is to be used. So if I was to leave the heater in then my water which is a liquid inside the cock pit and passes through the firewall aka bulk head to the engine all this needs to be as stated. Is this correct?
2. Because of 1 this is why I want to remove the heater and again just run something for demist only and I can do this in T&C correct?

So it might be my personal desire not to have hot water from the engine bay that might dictate the class/path I go as T&C will allow it and if Schedule K or FIA Appendix K does not then T&C it will be

I removed my heater after 2 failures of the heater radiator......hot water running around on the floor was not fun and yes guess what, no new radiators avaliable and to repair was just over the top $$$$.
The antiquated system wasn't up to demisting anything so I will go to an electric bilge fan and hide it under the dash.

[nzeder]

I removed my heater after 2 failures of the heater radiator......hot water running around on the floor was not fun and yes guess what, no new radiators avaliable and to repair was just over the top $$$$.
The antiquated system wasn't up to demisting anything so I will go to an electric bilge fan and hide it under the dash.

Exactly my plan. I have seen guys at the track with this setup and if the bilge fan is getting the air supply from outside the car (standard vent source is my plan) then the car has a good clear screen - better than a 1960's designed hot water heater system and what I would call a "safety" upgrade so should be permitted by any rule book in my opinion.

[Allan]

I look at mods such as this heater radiator removal as having no bearing on the cars performance and therefore should be allowed. But having said that it I think it should be made clear to ALL competitors using the same car that the mod is permitted thereby stopping those who would try and do it correctly from sending large dollars after the problem.

[John McKechnie]

Oldfart- never give up your principles and beliefs. Many more of us feel the same, and views need constant airing.
Unfortunately motor racing is all about pushing boundaries.

[nzeder]

I know this much.

Weather I go down the K car path (if the mods already done before I purchased the car ie pedal box and strut to strut cage are ok under K) or the T&C path the car will be to the rules and will stay that way.

I have a better understanding of the rules having read and re-read them time and time again. FIA Appendix K is longer and is much harder to get your head around - and at first seems overwhelming. I think MSNZ Schedule K and T&C rules are much easier to understand and therefore built to.

So you summarize - this is for those who are looking to build a car or make a car conform to the rules as they are today.

FIA Appendix K is for (talking about production based cars not 1 offs or special stuff)

1. Standard Series Production Cars (saloons or Sport & GT) as homologated as such so little or non modifications from the show room floor - no movement.

2. Competition Cars (based on the cars that qualify as #1) as homologated in modified form of the period in question and group in question. Parts can be replicated if NLA but be 100% replicas/dimensional correct. ie 100% as it was.

FIA HTP cars therefore have a known config and can (does not mean they will be accepted by the event organizers) run at Historic & Classic International Meetings

The above is based on cars as homologated by the FIA in the day for an International Event - this does not cover locally build or raced cars - only those the competed in International Events - correction see my post lower down but this is from the FIA Appendix K rules.

Cars without an international competition history but which have a competition history in national championship events or other significant national events of equivalent status may also be accepted.

MSNZ Schedule K much like above however can be based on any National race series around the world - is this correct?
Again MSNZ K COD is for

1. Standard Series Production Cars same as above

2. Competition Cars (based on #1) just like the FIA Appendix K stuff but the cars can be national/local level + International level cars

A COD in K does not mean the car can run at FIA HTP Historic and Classic events internationally - if you want to play that game FIA HTP is for you.

MSNZ T&C

1. Must be based on a Series Production Car and retain the Standard Production body work - if your car does not fit this it does not fit T&C without correcting this or looking to a different Schedule maybe K as Competition Car of the day.
2. Depending on the group your car fits into - Group 1 & 2 - more engine mods, brake mods, suspesions mods, wheels free + 1" more than period is permitted - all these mods must be as period. Groups 3 & 4 - limited engine mods, only pad/fluid can change, suspension shocks free, springs free so limited mods, wheels free + 1" from standard rim.

So that is basics - you need to read the rules as this is just a summary. So have I missed anything?

[Kiwiboss]

If you can't read this E-mail me direct at dmathers@xtra.co.nz and i'll send it though, its from the latest USA Vintage motorsport magazine and is a great read.

Dale M

[Spgeti]

Thanks Dale, a very good article.
Cheers, Bruce