New Zealand Pre 61 Saloon Register

[Oldfart]

Previously this was called "Going Even Older".
As of last night we have a set of "Guidelines" for pre 61 saloons.
The initial focus is for the 2014 Roycroft meeting, but "Watch this space". There WILL be more opportunities to use these cars.
The basic premise is that we are providing a place for enthusiasts to take their eligible vehicles for a thrash. This is NOT intended to be an older version of Pre 65s. With that in mind, here are the guidelines. This is it. After a period it is likely that the people taking part will meet for suggestions in the light of experience.

Guide lines for pre 1961 saloon car class

1. All vehicles as defined by the rules of the VCCNZ and accepted under those rules are eligible for speed events. Subject to organisers approval. These regulations further define what is expected in this class of vehicle competing in pre 1961 period specification and any vehicle not meeting the spirit of these regulations may be excluded.

2. All vehicles must be entered by a financial member of the VCCNZ or a club affiliated to Motorsport NZ

3. The driver on the day must be a financial member of the VCCNZ. .or a club affiliated to Motorsport NZ

4. Current VCC ID card, log book and historic racing licence or current Motorsport licence and log book must be presented.

5. All production cars must retain full interior trim (period race seat acceptable) and full exterior trim. Except in the case of genuine historic racing vehicles which may compete in their original racing configuration. Hub caps-wheel trims must be removed & headlights taped before scrutineering

6. All vehicles other than those with genuine status shall be WOF standard.

7. Tyres must comply with log book specs and the following regulations.
• General
Tyre compound and construction must respect the specifications that were applicable to the period the vehicle represents. Chassis and suspension componentry were designed to accept the loads and forces induced by the tyres of any given period. To install a tyre of improved technology could impose loadings that exceed the chassis and suspension design parameters.
• Race tyre for circuit racing and speed events
Cars in period 1931-1961 must use Dunlop vintage or L section racing tyres which have 204 compound only and tread pattern CR65 or earlier.
• Road tyres
All cars may as an alternative to using period racing tyres use tyres suitable for legal road use (ie DOT approved road tyres having 2mm minimum tread depth across 75% of the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference of the tyre. Aspect ratio is restricted to 70% minimum.
• The tread pattern must be in keeping with the period the vehicle represents.
Any road tyre used in a race or speed event must have a speed rating compatible with the capability of the car.

8. Wheels must be of original diameter up to 4.5” maximum width and of steel construction. Wheels of greater width may be used if it can be proved they were a factory option for the make and model of vehicle concerned or were used on the vehicle concerned prior to the cutoff date

9. Cars to be dated by the newer of 2 items:
◦ Chassis/body shell or;
◦ Engine

10 Engines should be of the type available in the body shell to pre 1961 specifications. Modifications to be of those available pre 1961.Engine swaps may be considered subject to the vehicle having a LVVTA Certification plate and provided that the engine is pre 1961 Prior approval should be obtained from the organising committee

11 Engines may be Supercharged but not TurboCharged.

12 Gearbox must be pre 1961.

13 Suspension and steering to be of original configuration. Swaybars (anti roll), track rods and axle location rods may be added where documentation can be supplied by the entrant to show that this was available in the period.

14 Disc brakes may be fitted if documented proof is supplied of availability in period for that make and model of car and of the same specification.

15 Date carry over to be accepted on case by case basis.

16 Any proposed major modifications should be referred to the event organiser prior to commencement for approval.

Any questions can either go here, or PM me for contact details.

[CobraV8]

Would like to race my mini in this, but cooper s starts in 64, pre 65 too serious and rough.

[Steve Holmes]

This is great news Rhys! I hope this takes off, I think its a great idea. Just a quick question, have you considered adopting an existing set of regulations to take the hassle out of putting the rules together yourselves? There are FIA Historic touring car regulations already in place, although I can't recall the cut-off date. It could possibly be earlier than 1961?

This was racing at the Goodwood Revival on the weekend:

[Oldfart]

We have looked at all the overseas rules, and spoken by phone with most of the co-ordinators who happily told us of the short-comings in their rules.
We are also governed by the agreement between Motorsport NZ and the Vintage Car Club which imposes the cut off dates. Yes I know Cobra that we have to exclude your car, I am sorry, but there is AES and Arrow which would cater for you.
Buy an A30?

[Spgeti]

Steve, I have recently seen a very nice VX490, 1963 but again to late for Rhys's cut off date. Cool photo and good luck to Rhys with his group. I need to buy an early Alfa or Fiat.....

[CobraV8]

A 1959 mini 850 could still be competitive somehow!

[Oldfart]

A 1959 mini 850 could still be competitive somehow!

Yes it could, and read the "period mods" bit Likewise read the very first (#1) rule and the premise. Go away from the spirit, and you might not get to come back!
So now find a GENUINE pre 1961 Mini, magic wand stick, etc
BYW lets hear from you guys, this is supposed to be fun. There might be the odd chocolate fish, or lemons given out at the post match function, but don't look for prizes.
There will be NO sponsorship signage either. As it was, so it shall be.

[CobraV8]

Sounds like a challenge! I like the idea, about time there was a class that isn't too focused on bashing into each other.

[Oldfart]

Sounds like a challenge! I like the idea, about time there was a class that isn't too focused on bashing into each other.

In this class I won't wait for the "bashing into each other". If someone looks like they are heading in that direction they will be requested to leave (and won't have future entry considered).

[Oldfart]

Well it's on. The first event officially, is the Roycroft Trophy 8/9 March 2014. Practice and 3 races Saturday, 4 races Sunday. Eligible vehicles would also be welcomed at Taupo Nov 30/Dec 1. Roycroft entry is $160. That's pretty good for the amount of track time.
It WILL go ahead. I won't promise to buy cars and find drivers like George did
We now have a name too
Pre 61 Saloon Register.

[Shoreboy57]

Well done. Great to see the variety of historic classes developing to bring out more cars. Exactly why V8 "Supercars" no longer appeal

[Steve Holmes]

Well it's on. The first event officially, is the Roycroft Trophy 8/9 March 2014. Practice and 3 races Saturday, 4 races Sunday. Eligible vehicles would also be welcomed at Taupo Nov 30/Dec 1. Roycroft entry is $160. That's pretty good for the amount of track time.
It WILL go ahead. I won't promise to buy cars and find drivers like George did
We now have a name too
Pre 61 Saloon Register.
Steve, is it possible to change the thread header to reflect this?

Great stuff Rhys, I really hopes this takes off!

[Kiwiboss]

This is fantastic Rhys, but please use the original historic rules as used overseas for guidelines rather than reinvent the wheel, with some Kiwi adjustments off-course!! I see this working well as HMC and HSC(Historic Saloon Cars, U3L) will cater for post 61 vehicles so this gives us a firm 1961 to 12/1977 vehicle period and when approached by anyone wanting to race a pre 61 saloon we can send them in your direction!! The VCC Roycroft meeting is an excellent place to start, cant see how this wont take off but be firm!!

PS: Why are we doing NOW what MSNZ should have done 30 years ago as they did in Australia?

Dale M

[Oldfart]

Hi Dale, as we have said there has been a couple of years of consultation with most overseas groups and taken them on board from suggestions. Personally I did want a bit more but there are "powers above me".
MSNZ, previously MANZ lost the plot a number of times, and forgot that grass roots is where it all starts and if you wanted to throw a date at when they did that....

[Steve Holmes]

Sure you've probably read this Rhys, but here are the FIA Appendix J Pre 1961 Historic Touring Car Regulations. Makes for good reading I think, and well thought out. Adopting these would allow people to either buy existing cars from overseas, and/or race their cars overseas if they wish, plus you could eventually invite international touring car drivers to race their cars in NZ, just as the VCC does with historic single seaters and sports cars.

But people do respond well to a well laid out set of regulations where they always know where they stand if building a car. Also gives you guys running the show something to refer to, and to provide this info to those building cars: http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fil...1961%20ANG.pdf

[Allan]

Does the carry over rule apply here?

[GeebeeNZ]

Allan, That's an interesting question and the answer may be no. Given that the last Mini was driven off the production line by Lulu in the year 2000 I don't think that its intended that it be a home for retired Mini Sevens. Motorsport NZ does have an agreement with VCC allowing pre 1961 cars to race on circuits but I am not too sure whether that includes carry over vehicles. However Motorsport NZ does allow carry over vehicles to run in Motorsport NZ events without roll protection such as Post 1960 Daimler SP 250 and MGA mainly because there is little difference between them and their pre 1961 brothers.

[Allan]

Thanks for that GB. When I consider the carry over rule I tend to think of a vehicle that is IDENTICAL to one made before the cut off date. A couple that spring to mind are the Mini (848cc floor start long lever) and the Anglia (997cc). The moment an alteration of any kind is made then it ceases to be a carry over vehicle. If such a rule is to be used the we need an eligibility committee to decide if a particular competitors vehicle is eligible or not and then communicate that to every other competitor asking for objections. Or failing that come up with a definitive list of eligible carry over models.

[Oldfart]

Hi Allan, there is a committee already in place, and if you look at the guidelines (Post #1) it clearly states that carry over is on a case by case basis.
In most cases committees tend to produce camels, in part that is why this has taken the better part of 2 years to get off the ground.
As previously commented, I did contact most overseas organisations and universally they suggested not using their own rules. Of course we would welcome any Australian Na car, and the FIA J fits. Many if not most St Marys Trophy cars would not fit as they have engines which are too new.
I would also like to remind all that this is intended as a place for people to take their appropriately dated cars for an enthusiastic thrash with like minded people. It's something of a different mindset for the racers of this world to understand.
Personally, I would like to see a variety of period vehicles rather than a bunch of near to cut off date cars. Think 56 Humber 80, A35, Vanguard Riley Pathfinder etc

Please, anyone contemplating something, contact me. pre61saloonregister@gmail.com

[Oldfart]

I have a ruling from "on high" in regards carry over.
If a person with knowledge of the car in question could say "That could be within the year" it would be accepted. If there are major differences, then the answer is likely no.
2 examples from "Marques I have knowledge" A Peugeot 403, remained almost identical from 56 to 63, so no issue. Triumph Herald had significant changes from even 1960 to 63, so the later car would likely not be OK. Currently a Triumph Herald Coupe on Trade Me, repowered with a 13/60 motor. The car is OK, the motor not.
I have been told we already have; Mk2 Zephyr with Historic Race status, Jaguar Mark 7 (now returned to correct period wheels) A30 Speedwell, V8 Coupe, probable Standard 10, 107E, another V8 Coupe, possible Citroen Light 15, DKW, Humber 80.
4 and a bit months to go, and of course these do not have to be "race cars". Take out the spare wheel, picnic basket, rug on the back seat and the tools, and come and have a number of "enthusiastic" drives. Probably practice + 3 or 4 races (runs) each day!
pre61saloonregister@gmail.com