I really hope this takes off. Add Rover P4, Standard Ensign, Morris Minor, Austin Westminster, Jag Mk 1 etc., to the above mix. It doesn't matter what the lap times are as long as there are plenty of cars willing to put on a show. I want to see Harry's Citroen at HD's turn 2! It always looks fantastic at the Chelsea Hill Climb - which must be coming up soon.
Please let us know know when that is...
Hi Ray, Chelsea is next Sunday, Nov 3rd (with a rain day of the 10th)
The cars I have posted are the ones who have indicated that they wish to take part. We need to find some 15" rims for Harry, the metric (400) tyres took a pasting at the first Roycroft and they are expensive. Until that is sorted we probably won't see him at pace. Sad!
This class is looking good Rhys, i can see myself in a 390 61 Galaxy(not 406 or 427 as these were 62 & 3) trundling around Hampton with this lot!!When is the first event? VCC at Hampton i guess?
Dale M
And is big enough to carry a Standard 10 in the boot as a spare when it runs out of gas on the 3rd lap.
We CAN see you in that, Dale.
You betcha John, not that i know were i'd find the time!!!! but i do luv some of the Goodwood YouTube footage with the galaxies and small cars all racing together, those tanks look a handful that's for-sure and its great to see the small cars beating up on themOriginally Posted by John McKechnie
!! this is what this pre61 class should be about, with no modern technology added!! whats that saying??? "How they were, so shall it be" something like that anyway?
Dale M
Last edited by Kiwiboss; 10-25-2013 at 10:18 PM.
Some of us are keeping an eye on trademe cars up to 1960 looking for a suitable contender but I have never owned a yank tank. However tonight I have come across a 1956 Ford Tbird. a 1955 Cadillac Coupe de ville and a 1959 Ford Edsel. Has anyone ever raced a Ford Edsel in New Zealand. That could be a first.
Correct GeeBee, some great vehicles available rite here in NZ, and this class is similar to what we are doing with HMC, trying to keep the vehicle entry level reasonably affordable, but to me the secret of any "historic" race class is not to let "modernisation" take over were it becomes a money race to win, build a car today and it must be-able to fit the group in 10 years time and not be out classed!! this is were the Aussies got it rite with there Na, Nb, Nc historic racing, 30 years ago.
Dale M
59/60 Edsel or T/bird would be the go 430 cu in on that MEL with the O-Drive glass box, they used 9" rear axles as well, drum brakes might be an issue, but seeing your going to allow 'enthusiastic' driving then just chuck her sideways at the last second.....counting the seconds before Dale dreams up a rule to counter such antics...
Post #7 has the saying. As it was, so it shall be. The Galaxy on skinny wheels and the drum brakes would be good! Except Dale it won't be a 61! Pre 31 December 1960 is the date.cars beating up on them
Dale M
And you are right about the modernisation. I spoke with the co-ordinator of group Na, and was told they made mistakes, but too late to go back now.
I also love the St Marys footage from Goodwood, another class where I phoned the co-ordinator and was told they got it wrong with the cut off for later componentry allowed. It might look like a '57 A30, but has much newer components, and again they regret where they got to. Named race drivers does not help there either, especially when they don't care what happens to either the car they are driving nor the one they just rubbed.
Last edited by Oldfart; 10-25-2013 at 10:47 PM.
Agree. Sadly, Goodwood has degenerated in driving behaviour over the years, as it appears that too many people attach too much prestige to winning. We have seen some very expensive cars badly damaged, as some of these drivers have too little respect for the cars or mobile history, and some of the rich owners are no better for recruiting these hard chargers.
As we keep saying over here, the stars are the cars and over-driving is just not tolerated. If there is a sizeable speed difference, then for goodness sake, run handicap races, then it doesn't matter who wins and encourages drivers to seek out cars that are interesting.
I'm not sure that saloon car racing in the UK benefitted from the introduction of the Ford Galaxies, and I sincerely hope that potential entrants here, can see that seeking out a load of cars car with massive 427cu ins engines is going to kill off the series before it has even started.
I'd rather be looking at a Morris Minor, Standard 10 or an Austin A35, something fairly common, fairly cheap, not too quick but easy to maintain in standard trim - but I wouldn't care too much for racing amongst a field of small aircraft carriers!
+1
You know, there hasn't been much humour on the roaring season for a while, not in fact since the early days when there were some good stories posted on yards and yarns, or when we were 'discussing' the merits or otherwise of Skodas. But with the advent of Oldfarts pre 61 saloon class, I can hardly wait to see what 'hilarious' comments folk have made regarding this new class of 'racing'. I say racing, because these activities are being held on a race track where the main idea is to race.
I have to take issue with ERC when he says that he would like to see cars such as the Morris Minor, Standard ten, and A35, and other cheap, at the time, cars, and would not want to see 7 litre Fords rumbling around with all this small fry, none of which are particularly fast. For fast, read SLOW, especially in 'standard' trim. I begin to wonder whether anyone on here has actually driven any of these working class cars that were so popular in their day, and knows just how pathetically gutless they all are. To give an example........I drove my Mothers Morris Minor from Ashburton to Christchurch sometime in 1957, a distance of about 55 miles. On the day in question there was a 'stiff' nor-easter blowing, hence I had a head wind all the way. Do you know that the Minor could not cope with the wind in top gear, and I had to change into 3rd to make any progress when I couldn't slip-steam behind a truck.......I kid you not.
I am therefore having trouble imagining a Morrie racing, or to use Oldfarts term, having a good thrash, round HD, or any other track for that matter. Unless I do some considerable modification to the machine, both engine and chassis wise, it is going to be pretty boring to drive AND to watch. BUT, I am not allowed to do any modifications other than very small changes to this very basic car, and will certainly NOT corner like the Vauxhall as shown in a previous post. All the cars competing at Goodwood have been seriously uprated, and it makes for a good spectacle, something which STANDARD 50's saloon cars will not provide. I cant even put a later model cylinder head on the Morrie cos its not allowed, even though from the outside it looks, and IS identical. The only way I can get some urge and excitement into it is by adding a supercharger. When did you last see a supercharger for sale? We used to buy surplus cabin blowers from retired aircraft to do the same thing, but I doubt you will find one now, and all the old superchargers are all worn out. Remember it has to have been made prior to 1961!!!!!
A lot of these 1950 cars had column change and a lot had bench front seats. Not much location there for spirited driving. Ok, put in a race seat......what happens to the passenger seat that was part of a bench seat. Plonk in another race seat maybe. Not a problem with the Morrie, but will be on other makes. Am I not even able to change the dreadful lever-arm shock absorbers on the car to some later hydraulic ones........no because they weren't around on Morries in the 50's.
An so it goes on. When in fact did you last see a Riley Pathfinder, even in the VCC. ......and a Rover P4......they weren't call "Auntie Cars' for nothing. The only machines that are going to work are the bigger engine cars, and cars with a bit of sporting history....Jaguars. And talking of Jaguars, I hope no one thinks they are going to drop a 3.8 or a 4.2 litre engine in a Mark 7. or for that matter into a Mk1 or Mk2. They may superficially similar to a 3.4 but most definitely weren't around in the 50's. Big 6 cylinder Austins might be the go, but their cooling systems are not going to cope, despite having about 15 gallons of water to play with!!!
I think there has got to be a salutary lesson here after Georges efforts with the Sports sedans. He gave it his best shot, but after the initial burst of enthusiasm, and the adrenaline had worn off, and the owners had inspected their cars in the cold light of day, it all became just too hard just to get them back into track condition again. And remember these machines existed, sitting in someones shed, unlike the pre 61 class of car, most of which will have to be purchased from somewhere, and I will bet they are in worst condition than Georges group. Just getting them into WOF standard is going to be a mission, and that is a minimum requirement.
Now, before there is a flood of replies accusing me of being a negative bastard, I would like to point out that I would like to see this take off as much as anyone, but I would urge potential competitors to do their sums carefully. The country is littered with vehicles that have been half restored, only to bog down when money and enthusiasm has dried up. And make no mistake, this is being promoted as 'cheap' racing. There is no such thing. Even going for a good thrash is going to cost, so the whole thing better be worth while, and I have yet to meet a Morris Minor enthusiast who wants to go and do 'skids' in his pride and joy!!!!!LOL.
I can see both sides here, but as I remember, the UK's pre-1957 series had great racing and Austin A35's with stiffer springs made for very entertaining cornering. I don't really see the value in 100% bog standard either, but as Oldfart has already discovered, race series organisers regret some of their earlier decisions, but surely we can learn a wee bit from that? 100% bog standard - no, mildly period modified, yes, extensively modified, no. As we have also found out with our own series, the less bonnet lifting and finger pointing the better, so either leave it to a series convenor (not acommittee!) to have a set of rules that allows a degree of control, or on a driver vote.
Quite where and how you draw the line is always the $64,000 question, but as with all classes, the last thing we want is a tiny, loss making grid of pure vehicles. I just don't want to see potentially interesting cars ignored simply because they are not dragsters.
Series convenors have to be willing and able to change according to circumstances and to ensure long term survival, yet not lose sight of their original intention. Tracking our own series back 28 years shows subtle and not so subtle changes all the way, but the basic concept hasn't really changed since it was opened up 18 years ago, to allow in cars other than 4 cylinder BMC cars. Had we not opened it up, it would have sunk at least 15 years ago.
Rhys will have a pretty good idea of what he wants to achieve and how so let his vision be the guide and I for one hope he succeeds as he has identified a niche within local motorsport that could be filled.
Last edited by ERC; 10-27-2013 at 01:11 AM.
Im with Gerald on this one, I think part of the problem comes from the prospective competitors being from three seperate camps, those who have raced in those glory days of the sixties, those from later years & those who did not race in either period & now want to have a go at resurrecting one of those era's. I raced in the late sixties thru~1980, started on Imps, Anglias, Cortinas, T2000, before getting into a class C IMP in OSCA & then onto the V8 Cortinas, so I know what its like to be in a tiddler & literally have your doors blown off by a big car & then later having the opportunity to do the same to a later group of small cars & I dont remember feeling threatened or bad about either situation, the other thing any damage incurred was relatively minor compared to what we see today, probably biggest fright I ever got was being passed by Inky @ a Teretonga Clubmans in the wet& he dropped a couple of tires onto the grass verge and coated the screen with grass clippings, bloody hard to drive while looking thru a silage pit!
Soo, why do I suggest something like a T/Bird with 430 cu in, I guess 45+ years of being competitive & trying to get stuff to go faster wont die off quickly,I just look for what I consider to be a 'better' choice of car to start with & eliminate those that have too many negative points. Looking back our predeccesors did the same, you did not see many 4 cyl vauxhall victors, but plenty of 3300 examples, how many 1000cc Anglias as opposed to 1340 or 1500 ones, the list goes on, the Skoda thing is quite funny as with the benefit of hindsight I reckon I could make one of those old girls quite competive if the need arose! I simply do not comprehend this cars are the stars & dont race the other guy stuff your proposing, just doesnt seem to have any real purpose at the end of it.
Last edited by Jac Mac; 10-27-2013 at 01:13 AM. Reason: I type too slow
We can still race door handle to door handle, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept dodgem car tactics!
I think there is often a misapprehension that because we elect to leave racing room or allow faster cars to pass, (particularly in a handicap race) that we are not actually racing. I wasn't fortunate enough to be able to race when I was young(ish), so have no comparisions but I can say that since racing regularly, in the same car since 1991, apart from the old Hotline GT series being blown away by the full race Turbo Porsches, then the McLaren and Amon festivals, being thrown in with out and out sports racers, that racing a relatively slow road car against others of similar ilk, has been most enjoyable and in 20+ years I think I have managed a total of just two or maybe three race wins. However, the wins mean diddly squat as I have enjoyed many races even though finishing way down the field!
Remember, classics and historics is still about participation and enjoyment.
Yes, and none of the cars depicted above in the coloured photos would be eligible for this class. Look at the wheels.....they are all on widened steel rims..........not allowed!!!!! So goodness knows what is under the bonnet or holding the axles on. This is where I think the specifications are too tight. They need to be opened up a bit or we will get what ERC says and that is tiny fields with 'pure' cars.
What was the saying in the 1980's..............'there is only one thing worse than taking pictures of Lady Diana....... that is..NOT taking pictures of Lady Diana'. Same here. My diatribe above is/was meant to encourage comment. Once the discussion stops, it's all over. We do not want this subject to slip to page 3!!!!!!!!!!!
JacMac.......I have had an issue with this 'Cars are the Stars' thing right from the word go. A car by its very nature is just so much metal,rubber and plastic with a bit of water and oil thrown in for good measure. The combination of all these things does little to excite the brain UNTIL the pilot gets into the cockpit and presses the start button. Then this pile of nuts and bolts and metal comes alive. Presently warm vapours assault the senses the whole thing comes alive. So to be a star, the car needs a driver, good or bad, and then depending on the skill or otherwise of the driver will become a star.
Think of some of the cars Nuvolari drove. Many of them were not stars until he drove them.
A line up of HMC cars is very nice, but how much nicer when fired up and taken out on the track.
You will hear this phrase a lot over the next couple of months leading up to the Festival, but frankly I think it is rubbish!!!!!!!!!Likewise a group of 1950's saloons will not excite me until they are fired up and put through their antics on the track, the guy at the wheel turning the car into a STAR!!!!!
Last edited by AMCO72; 10-27-2013 at 03:18 AM.
From memory, the pre 1957 UK rules did allow a certain amount of modification but apart from a limitation on carb size increases, wider steel wheels etc., I seem to remember springs were free (hence the two wheeling A35s) but it was a case of decent handling rather than huge horsepower.
I can admire a static car that has beauty - 250F Maserati, P25 BRM, V12 Eagle, 212 Aston - and any number of exotics, but the run of the mill does needing firing up to be of interest. The festival will of course say the cars are the stars, but as a visit to the Goodwood Festival usually proves, many static cars are indeed the stars, whereas a modern wailing screeching advertising bedecked F1 car or Aussie V8 taxi is not a star.
Yes there are cars that should have been winners & drivers that made lesser cars look good. I remember the late Lin Neilson having a yarn to me at Teretonga one day and told me that my 1600 Ford powered Imp would always be a brave mans car!, he probably was right but as I had spent a lot of time at club gravel events with it I never felt that way about it.
Dont want to drift but the HMC thing has always amused me going under the 'Muscle Car' logo & then not allowing Corvettes, Cobras etc, that must be news to some!
Perhaps the SI has a bonus in the matter of the clubs running the three circuits & all running club championship series within their meetings, series like these being proposed can/could be trialed within these meetings to see if there is some interestwithout a lot of organisation or hassle like George had with the his setup, Going back I remember most of the local OSCA cars also ran in club events at Teretonga, still happens today with old NZV8, OSCA, Endurance cars etc, so perhaps the NI guys need to try something along those lines & run your classes within one big club race @ Manfield/HD, Taupo, & Pukekohe, be a lot easier for the circuit owners if your going to just have say three max grid 'club' races rather than a whole lot of 'mini' grid marque races.
My turn!
In regard who has driven these? Me perhaps that's why I chose Oldfart. Going up the old highway 27 in a Standard 8 in 1966 was a blast, at least for me, I'm not sure about the gf at the time nor my best mate in the back seat, right foot nailed to the floor on the way to a meeting at Puke from Matamata. Fast? No flat out, yes. Fun, in sodding great big lumps.
Take a current car through the same antics, fast? yes, flat out? no way, fun? no, boring as Coro St
Gerald, who said you can't modify? Not me! Just period mods. (don't want silhouette cars) as an example I now have an Alexander tuning document on file, and what could be done is far from restrictive.
Likewise Woodhead Munroe advert for various telescopic shock conversions. (Even Morrie 8!)
Personally I would far rather watch Mark Parsons skidding all round the circuit than someone "on rails" who barely gets out of shape. Fast not really, good to watch, you betcha!!!!
I know these cars won't be over fast, but does really fast make the spectator thing work? I suspect that armfuls of sideways, even if it is at a lower speed is way more interesting. The other bit you have missed is that a lot of people love to say, "Oh look that's just like Uncle Fred used to have, what a hoot!" I simply can not see the same with the current plastic body cars. Extreme comparison absolutely.
A few years back we were forced to do a car swap in Targa. The classic car was always chatting to the folks who came up. The much newer car meant that we were transparent.
Springs are free, even the UK guys reckon lever arms can be made to work with an alteration of oil, panhard rods, sway bars, all allowed, bigger drums, or discs on the "prove you are OK" basis. Wheels are on application, first query already approved.
If I am wrong after a few meetings I am big enough to say "I was wrong", hope you all will be too
Jac, sorry I can't see how your post is relevant to these at all.
BTW, good to see you back Gerald! I look forward to the banter. Where were you for Kairangi?
I keep seeing more to respond to!
Gerald, who said anything about the cylinder heads?
Who said anything about the supercharger having to be period?
You have written in stuff that is just not accurate or true. Please don't.
Have alook at UK historics, there is an "Auntie Rover" with a driver almost (but not quite) as good looking as someone close to Angus!
Last edited by Oldfart; 10-27-2013 at 06:38 AM.
+1
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