New Zealand Pre 61 Saloon Register

[AMCO72]

John......what is the +1 for?

Re cylinder heads........your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted. Well the Cooper S cylinder head was not available till 63 or 64........ has bigger valves etc so cant be used is the way I read it.

I wasn't aware that superchargers are still made, and if they were would be of modern construction and design, therefore not permissible.

Maybe I am reading too much into your guidelines, but to a casual observer like me it all sounds very restrictive, which is fine if that is what you mean. And this is where problems come in. People are always trying to bend the rules to their advantage, in any sport, and motoracing in particular. They always have and always will so maybe the guidelines have to be more specific or people will interpret them differently as I obviously have.

[John McKechnie]

Gerald- it means that I am in agreement with Rhys, you have been away from this site for too long and missed this new term. I assume you have just got back from your stated trip to Siberia.
In post #1- "The basic premise is that we are providing a place for enthusiasts to take their eligible vehicles for a thrash ".
Motor racing , it is clearly pointed out, is not the basic premise.

[Howard Wood]

Gerald- it means that I am in agreement with Rhys, you have been away from this site for too long and missed this new term

And welcome back Gerald, some of us have missed you!

[ERC]

Thanks Rhys. Spot on. Your point about Mark Parsons is particularly spot on. Cars with "attitude" do not have to be fast, but are fun to watch, fun to drive. I seem to remember James Hunt enjoying his A35 van and either Frank Sytner or Frank Williams, managed to put an A40 on its roof - in the middle of Nottingham...

[AMCO72]

Whats the difference John. You are out on a race track with others[yes] some of whom you are determined to beat [yes] This used to be called Racing. You will remember my story way back in Y & Y where I pitted the Singer against an Austin 7. We were racing, believe me, even though the speed we reached was 'only' 45 mph!!!!!!

As to the Siberia trip. Well, I was hoping you would be able to come with me to show me around as it were, but you are too damn busy with Team Holden Monaro, so I flagged it away.

[Oldfart]

Gerald, please quote where you have found "your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted."
I can't find that, and I don't really think putting an interpretation of your own is helpful. We have constantly, and consistently said "as it was, so it shall be" if someone wants to push the boundaries they might not be invited back, perhaps that's where you are coming from?
Superchargers are not uncommon on some of the mid 80s and later Toyotas! Lancias have a very similar to old style too. Again, where have I said these are not permissible, in fact there is a very specific clause.
Yes I guess you have interpreted in a way nobody else yet has, there is also a comment re proposed modifications. Outside the spirit will be suggested that a proposed participant may be invited to find a different sandpit to play in.

[Frosty5]

AMCO72-Re cylinder heads........your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted. Well the Cooper S cylinder head was not available till 63 or 64........ has bigger valves etc so cant be used is the way I read it.

So I am assuming my old 100E (59) Prefect fitted with Aquaplane gear (Alloy cyl.hd, lightened flywheel, O/S valves & springs, exhaust manifold etc from the UK) would be eligible. And fitted with Jolly wheels. Certainly gave Dad's std 64 Anglia a fright!!!

[Oldfart]

AMCO72-Re cylinder heads........your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted. Well the Cooper S cylinder head was not available till 63 or 64........ has bigger valves etc so cant be used is the way I read it.

So I am assuming my old 100E (59) Prefect fitted with Aquaplane gear (Alloy cyl.hd, lightened flywheel, O/S valves & springs, exhaust manifold etc from the UK) would be eligible. And fitted with Jolly wheels. Certainly gave Dad's std 64 Anglia a fright!!!

Frosty, as long as the wheels comply the answer is yes. That is exactly what I want to see.
Not sure about what you mean with your first copied paragraph though!

[Kiwiboss]

My turn!
In regard who has driven these? Me perhaps that's why I chose Oldfart. Going up the old highway 27 in a Standard 8 in 1966 was a blast, at least for me, I'm not sure about the gf at the time nor my best mate in the back seat, right foot nailed to the floor on the way to a meeting at Puke from Matamata. Fast? No flat out, yes. Fun, in sodding great big lumps.
Take a current car through the same antics, fast? yes, flat out? no way, fun? no, boring as Coro St
Gerald, who said you can't modify? Not me! Just period mods. (don't want silhouette cars) as an example I now have an Alexander tuning document on file, and what could be done is far from restrictive.
Likewise Woodhead Munroe advert for various telescopic shock conversions. (Even Morrie 8!)
Personally I would far rather watch Mark Parsons skidding all round the circuit than someone "on rails" who barely gets out of shape. Fast not really, good to watch, you betcha!!!!
I know these cars won't be over fast, but does really fast make the spectator thing work? I suspect that armfuls of sideways, even if it is at a lower speed is way more interesting. The other bit you have missed is that a lot of people love to say, "Oh look that's just like Uncle Fred used to have, what a hoot!" I simply can not see the same with the current plastic body cars. Extreme comparison absolutely.
A few years back we were forced to do a car swap in Targa. The classic car was always chatting to the folks who came up. The much newer car meant that we were transparent.
Springs are free, even the UK guys reckon lever arms can be made to work with an alteration of oil, panhard rods, sway bars, all allowed, bigger drums, or discs on the "prove you are OK" basis. Wheels are on application, first query already approved.
If I am wrong after a few meetings I am big enough to say "I was wrong", hope you all will be too

Jac, sorry I can't see how your post is relevant to these at all.

BTW, good to see you back Gerald! I look forward to the banter. Where were you for Kairangi?

I keep seeing more to respond to!
Gerald, who said anything about the cylinder heads?
Who said anything about the supercharger having to be period?
You have written in stuff that is just not accurate or true. Please don't.
Have alook at UK historics, there is an "Auntie Rover" with a driver almost (but not quite) as good looking as someone close to Angus!

Great examples you've mentioned Rhys so keep at it and keep move forward, forums like this are great but are typical of when anyone can have an instant say so you get those that are opinionated and negative(NO, not mentioning you) but don't let it get you down, listen to everyone then take the positives and disregard the negatives is what i do, Pre 61 Saloons(like HMC) is a great concept but will take time and hard work and as seen overseas it can and will work, unfortunately its guys like you(and i)that step up with a passion for old car motorsport that takes the brunt for something that should have been done 20 plus years ago by MSNZ in a similar way to what CAMS Classic and Historic did in Australia, and although they know(and so do we) that they made mistakes at least they've had 30 years to build a historic racing fleet(same in GB i presume) were-as here we are starting now(or as in HMC 2 years ago)!!

I also hear what you say about spectical value Rhys, EG Skid Mark Parson's, Targa, etc and without a doubt the most spectacular group currently is the Central Muscle Cars, sure silhouette hotrods beyond anything Historic or Classic but the show they put on is beyond belief and the spectators including myself just luv it, infact I'd rather watch them than Supertourers or Aussie taxi's, and they started out 10 years ago with just 6 cars at Manfeild and one was a Nissan Skyline(i was there watching) so it can be done. Now Pre 61 Saloons including HMC may not have the same appeal but not all is lost, some spectators do luv seeing an ol A30 in period guise doing the biz but as in overseas historic racing its more about the cars and the owners hence the catch fraze "Cars are the Stars" this doesn't mean one can't race as hard as they can, its just while doing so please have respect for "thou fellow racer" is more what we're pushing. We are lucky that Hampton Downs came along and now has the Festival every January to help push the more pure "Historic and Classic" theme, prior to that it wasn't much so long may it continue and if anything like the likes of "Goodwood" and "Monterey" is something to go by the future looks good.

I also value Ray's, Gerald's, and other opinions because they have "been there done that" and by god your first posting Gerald is very good and has merits and concerns but hasn't everything? but its those that "grasp" and take up the Pre 61 Saloon concept that will make it work(or not) and this may not be you Gerald, same with HMC. From my own experience HMC has had huge interest but understand(or lack of it) i find interesting, after all we are a "Saloon" class which means a Corvette and Cobra although Muscle Cars in road form are actually considered "sports cars" in racing form, its only been that way since the 60's, still i value Mr Jacmac's opinion as i do others from the mainland but it does seem to be a bit of a mess down there?. Also i've found that getting those that have shown interest in HMC off the TV couch and to the race track is another thing and several in our group are over 2 years into car builds due to $$$ or the lack of it and then i have those with turn key ready to go cars that don't even come racing, but certainly the biggest factor has been the "economy"(or lack of it i guess) as many have said they wish, and will at some stage join HMC and its not even the money, its the "time at the coal face" especially if self employed or a large business and as one pointed out, we're all working twice as hard for half as much these days, can certainly can understand that!!

Anyway, as in other class's Rhys there will be those that grasp the concept and those that won't, they can wander off into motorsport no-mans-land and spend their money as they see fit!! you will have moments were you wondered why you even bothered and unfortunately i have to tell you it all won't happen overnight thats for sure, it'll be YEARS but good luck mate, we're here to support you.

Dale M

[Frosty5]

Frosty, as long as the wheels comply the answer is yes. That is exactly what I want to see.
Not sure about what you mean with your first copied paragraph though!

So parts available (manufactured) post-61 for cars pre-61 could not be used. Is that how I understand it?

[Oldfart]

So parts available (manufactured) post-61 for cars pre-61 could not be used. Is that how I understand it?

Frosty (and others), the modifications have to be "what could have been, and was, done in the period the car represents". This is, in part, why there is a wheel width restriction. Research has told us that Jolly wheels as you mentioned don't seem to appear till the mid 60s. (Not sure of a specific date). Likewise Minilites have a similar date. In the case you mention the 100e would very likely have got those wider wheels about the mid 60s, as did my old Hillman Husky (67 for the Husky), up until then most of us floundered around on either skinny wheels, or those from a different variety of the same chassis. The Husky with it's old 3 studs had no options that I could find. If, for example, a 100e estate had wider wheels, that's what people could/would have used.
The Standard 10 I am building up has Herald wheels, 4 1/2", the A30 which Ryan has is using HC Viva 4 1/2", John Ure has an exemption for the Mk 7 Jag to run 5 1/2" as he has provided documentation to show that's what his car had available ex factory.
Your Aquaplane head could be brand new, they are available, however that's a mod "you could have done in the period", likewise you could put an Elva head on. A 1200 OHV engine you can't do because that did not come out till after 31 Dec 1960.
Peugeot 203 and 403 were both supercharged in the period, I have many magazines showing that. We do not expect someone to find the absolute correct supercharger (very like rocking horse crap) but it would need to be installed in a similar manner. Off the topic, there are a number of supercharged MGs running Lancia Volumex which have recast ends with the octagon cast in, to look more genuine, we do not require that level of effort to look correct.
As always, the onus of proving a case is with the owner. And just in case...having a letter from "Uncle Fred" does not cut the mustard, it must be published material with date evidence.
Hope this ramble clarifies for you.

The cylinder head Gerald refers to, would this fit on an 850 block? It is the BLOCK that is the critical bit for VCC dating.

[Oldfart]

As an offering to see if I can clarify more, below a "sample" car and what can and cannot be done.
1957 Standard 10
Engine 948 Herald Coupe motor, Yes.
13/60 or Spitfire 1300 motor No (too new)
Extractors yes
Side draft Weber , prove it was done IN THE PRE 61
Lowered Yes
Swaybar fitted YES diameter free
Externally adjustable shocks No
Adjustable spring platforms No
Rear lever shocks swapped to TR4/MGB type yes (same as other from pre 61)
Tele conversion for the rear, at this time no, the owner has to prove that this was available IN THE PRE 61 PERIOD
Tramp rods, panhard, Watts link all yes
Lexan windows No
Perspex using the original closing method yes, bolt in no.
Alloy removable panels yes (The works Rally cars had these for some Euro rallies, documents to show it)
Toyota 5 speed g'box no
Changed ratios in the period case yes.
Hood lining, carpets, rear seat removed No
Ratty hood lining replaced with "Front runner" boat lining yes.
Drivers seat replaced with bright blue wing seat no
Subtle black seat yes
Bench seat (Standard never had one but for the sake of discussion) replaced with 2 buckets of subtle colour, yes.
Internal engine mods, yes of course, just remember that block thing.

For 2014 Roycroft we welcome pretty much anything as we have done on a ONE EVENT basis. eg for 2013 John Ure ran his Jag with the Minilites and semi slicks. It was allowed for that event only, and if he wished to run with us again he was to change the wheels and tyres to comply, this he has already done for 2014. For ERC series he will revert to the others.

[ERC]

Standard 10 is a great example. (Didn't Stirling Moss run one, modified by Alf Francis?)
Good explanations Rhys other than queres that cropped up years ago with our own cars.
Rear seats, carpets, head linings and cages.

I presume cages are acceptable, or at least some form of roll protection?
If so, then rear seats can be a problem, as carving holes into old, genuine, almost unobtainable upholstery, wrecks it. Carpets, to a similar degree.
Secondly, fitting a headlining can be a major problem around a cage.

Thirdly, I am sure that most drivers will be aware of the toxic nature of burning foam. Not only is it toxic, but it is almost impossible to extinguish, so if a replacement rear seat is installed, around the cage, but made from foam, I would consider it aesthetically OK, but would not be happy from a fire/safety point of view.

Having already been down that route ourselves, we opted to allow the removal of the rear seat on the grounds that from the spectator stands, you can't tell anyway. Upholstery is also often in a poor state (particularly if drivers are going out to purchase a car to race) and can be very expensive to restore. It is important that cars look tidy but a concours car is generally not going to be risked on a race track, where innocent accidents can and will happen and the availability of pre 1960 panels is not getting any easier.

Loose carpets can also be a problem in a race situation.

Lexan no, but Perspex yes? Are you aware of the LVVTA rules for road cars? I have just had my car rejected by LVVTA because I used an acrylic/plastic for the rear door windows. That is OK for MSNZ but is not approved by LVVTA, so I have had to dump the acrylic and have been forced into using Lexan, as it is approved by both.

No doubt this isn't the first time these points have been raised!

[Oldfart]

Ray, I did not know about the lexan/perspex issue, that will be revisited.
In regard the upholstery, I have argued this one with VCC, they require interior, end of story. There is no mention of the state of it. Obviously if a cage is in place there needs to be common sense applied, hopefully we are mature enough to apply that, even if common sense is not overly common If someone were finding a "barn find" car then I guess that messing with upholstery is not too much of an issue. Case by case is always an option.
Yes loose carpet is a safety issue, and any reasonable scrutineer will be empowered to make a "good decision"
In the day, (I am sick of that phrase) many cars being competed with had "20 foot paint jobs", that will be OK with me, 10 foot would be better, no need for concours.

[John McKechnie]

Some fine Standard 10s and one Standard 8 on trademe at the moment. None are rusty , complete runners between $2-4 K. Even one doctor owner. !956 , so will bolt in for age.

[Spgeti]

Also on TM Austin A90...$1800

[Oldfart]

OK guys, get the cheque books out!

[ERC]

I need to get the 10 year project on the road before I can be further distracted... Then the Marcos is still suffering from superficial body damage from a 10 year old race accident that will need a body off fix to put back to acceptable.

[Oldfart]

I reckon John McKechnie in a Humpy Holden on 4 1/2" wheels would be very cool. grey motor etc!

[John McKechnie]

Rhys- I used to run that very same set up at Waikaraka Park in 1972.Twin strombergs.