+1
+1
John......what is the +1 for?
Re cylinder heads........your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted. Well the Cooper S cylinder head was not available till 63 or 64........ has bigger valves etc so cant be used is the way I read it.
I wasn't aware that superchargers are still made, and if they were would be of modern construction and design, therefore not permissible.
Maybe I am reading too much into your guidelines, but to a casual observer like me it all sounds very restrictive, which is fine if that is what you mean. And this is where problems come in. People are always trying to bend the rules to their advantage, in any sport, and motoracing in particular. They always have and always will so maybe the guidelines have to be more specific or people will interpret them differently as I obviously have.
Gerald- it means that I am in agreement with Rhys, you have been away from this site for too long and missed this new term. I assume you have just got back from your stated trip to Siberia.
In post #1- "The basic premise is that we are providing a place for enthusiasts to take their eligible vehicles for a thrash ".
Motor racing , it is clearly pointed out, is not the basic premise.
Last edited by John McKechnie; 10-27-2013 at 07:37 AM.
And welcome back Gerald, some of us have missed you!Originally Posted by John McKechnie
Whats the difference John. You are out on a race track with others[yes] some of whom you are determined to beat [yes] This used to be called Racing. You will remember my story way back in Y & Y where I pitted the Singer against an Austin 7. We were racing, believe me, even though the speed we reached was 'only' 45 mph!!!!!!
As to the Siberia trip. Well, I was hoping you would be able to come with me to show me around as it were, but you are too damn busy with Team Holden Monaro, so I flagged it away.
Thanks Rhys. Spot on. Your point about Mark Parsons is particularly spot on. Cars with "attitude" do not have to be fast, but are fun to watch, fun to drive. I seem to remember James Hunt enjoying his A35 van and either Frank Sytner or Frank Williams, managed to put an A40 on its roof - in the middle of Nottingham...
Gerald, please quote where you have found "your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted."
I can't find that, and I don't really think putting an interpretation of your own is helpful. We have constantly, and consistently said "as it was, so it shall be" if someone wants to push the boundaries they might not be invited back, perhaps that's where you are coming from?
Superchargers are not uncommon on some of the mid 80s and later Toyotas! Lancias have a very similar to old style too. Again, where have I said these are not permissible, in fact there is a very specific clause.
Yes I guess you have interpreted in a way nobody else yet has, there is also a comment re proposed modifications. Outside the spirit will be suggested that a proposed participant may be invited to find a different sandpit to play in.
AMCO72-Re cylinder heads........your guidelines state that parts not available up to end of 1960 are not permitted. Well the Cooper S cylinder head was not available till 63 or 64........ has bigger valves etc so cant be used is the way I read it.
So I am assuming my old 100E (59) Prefect fitted with Aquaplane gear (Alloy cyl.hd, lightened flywheel, O/S valves & springs, exhaust manifold etc from the UK) would be eligible. And fitted with Jolly wheels. Certainly gave Dad's std 64 Anglia a fright!!!
Frosty, as long as the wheels comply the answer is yes. That is exactly what I want to see.
Not sure about what you mean with your first copied paragraph though!
So parts available (manufactured) post-61 for cars pre-61 could not be used. Is that how I understand it?
Frosty (and others), the modifications have to be "what could have been, and was, done in the period the car represents". This is, in part, why there is a wheel width restriction. Research has told us that Jolly wheels as you mentioned don't seem to appear till the mid 60s. (Not sure of a specific date). Likewise Minilites have a similar date. In the case you mention the 100e would very likely have got those wider wheels about the mid 60s, as did my old Hillman Husky (67 for the Husky), up until then most of us floundered around on either skinny wheels, or those from a different variety of the same chassis. The Husky with it's old 3 studs had no options that I could find. If, for example, a 100e estate had wider wheels, that's what people could/would have used.
The Standard 10 I am building up has Herald wheels, 4 1/2", the A30 which Ryan has is using HC Viva 4 1/2", John Ure has an exemption for the Mk 7 Jag to run 5 1/2" as he has provided documentation to show that's what his car had available ex factory.
Your Aquaplane head could be brand new, they are available, however that's a mod "you could have done in the period", likewise you could put an Elva head on. A 1200 OHV engine you can't do because that did not come out till after 31 Dec 1960.
Peugeot 203 and 403 were both supercharged in the period, I have many magazines showing that. We do not expect someone to find the absolute correct supercharger (very like rocking horse crap) but it would need to be installed in a similar manner. Off the topic, there are a number of supercharged MGs running Lancia Volumex which have recast ends with the octagon cast in, to look more genuine, we do not require that level of effort to look correct.
As always, the onus of proving a case is with the owner. And just in case...having a letter from "Uncle Fred" does not cut the mustard, it must be published material with date evidence.
Hope this ramble clarifies for you.
The cylinder head Gerald refers to, would this fit on an 850 block? It is the BLOCK that is the critical bit for VCC dating.
As an offering to see if I can clarify more, below a "sample" car and what can and cannot be done.
1957 Standard 10
Engine 948 Herald Coupe motor, Yes.
13/60 or Spitfire 1300 motor No (too new)
Extractors yes
Side draft Weber , prove it was done IN THE PRE 61
Lowered Yes
Swaybar fitted YES diameter free
Externally adjustable shocks No
Adjustable spring platforms No
Rear lever shocks swapped to TR4/MGB type yes (same as other from pre 61)
Tele conversion for the rear, at this time no, the owner has to prove that this was available IN THE PRE 61 PERIOD
Tramp rods, panhard, Watts link all yes
Lexan windows No
Perspex using the original closing method yes, bolt in no.
Alloy removable panels yes (The works Rally cars had these for some Euro rallies, documents to show it)
Toyota 5 speed g'box no
Changed ratios in the period case yes.
Hood lining, carpets, rear seat removed No
Ratty hood lining replaced with "Front runner" boat lining yes.
Drivers seat replaced with bright blue wing seat no
Subtle black seat yes
Bench seat (Standard never had one but for the sake of discussion) replaced with 2 buckets of subtle colour, yes.
Internal engine mods, yes of course, just remember that block thing.
For 2014 Roycroft we welcome pretty much anything as we have done on a ONE EVENT basis. eg for 2013 John Ure ran his Jag with the Minilites and semi slicks. It was allowed for that event only, and if he wished to run with us again he was to change the wheels and tyres to comply, this he has already done for 2014. For ERC series he will revert to the others.
Standard 10 is a great example. (Didn't Stirling Moss run one, modified by Alf Francis?)
Good explanations Rhys other than queres that cropped up years ago with our own cars.
Rear seats, carpets, head linings and cages.
I presume cages are acceptable, or at least some form of roll protection?
If so, then rear seats can be a problem, as carving holes into old, genuine, almost unobtainable upholstery, wrecks it. Carpets, to a similar degree.
Secondly, fitting a headlining can be a major problem around a cage.
Thirdly, I am sure that most drivers will be aware of the toxic nature of burning foam. Not only is it toxic, but it is almost impossible to extinguish, so if a replacement rear seat is installed, around the cage, but made from foam, I would consider it aesthetically OK, but would not be happy from a fire/safety point of view.
Having already been down that route ourselves, we opted to allow the removal of the rear seat on the grounds that from the spectator stands, you can't tell anyway. Upholstery is also often in a poor state (particularly if drivers are going out to purchase a car to race) and can be very expensive to restore. It is important that cars look tidy but a concours car is generally not going to be risked on a race track, where innocent accidents can and will happen and the availability of pre 1960 panels is not getting any easier.
Loose carpets can also be a problem in a race situation.
Lexan no, but Perspex yes? Are you aware of the LVVTA rules for road cars? I have just had my car rejected by LVVTA because I used an acrylic/plastic for the rear door windows. That is OK for MSNZ but is not approved by LVVTA, so I have had to dump the acrylic and have been forced into using Lexan, as it is approved by both.
No doubt this isn't the first time these points have been raised!
Ray, I did not know about the lexan/perspex issue, that will be revisited.
In regard the upholstery, I have argued this one with VCC, they require interior, end of story. There is no mention of the state of it. Obviously if a cage is in place there needs to be common sense applied, hopefully we are mature enough to apply that, even if common sense is not overly commonIf someone were finding a "barn find" car then I guess that messing with upholstery is not too much of an issue. Case by case is always an option.
Yes loose carpet is a safety issue, and any reasonable scrutineer will be empowered to make a "good decision"
In the day, (I am sick of that phrase) many cars being competed with had "20 foot paint jobs", that will be OK with me, 10 foot would be better, no need for concours.
Some fine Standard 10s and one Standard 8 on trademe at the moment. None are rusty , complete runners between $2-4 K. Even one doctor owner. !956 , so will bolt in for age.
Also on TM Austin A90...$1800
OK guys, get the cheque books out!
I need to get the 10 year project on the road before I can be further distracted... Then the Marcos is still suffering from superficial body damage from a 10 year old race accident that will need a body off fix to put back to acceptable.
I reckon John McKechnie in a Humpy Holden on 4 1/2" wheels would be very cool. grey motor etc!
Rhys- I used to run that very same set up at Waikaraka Park in 1972.Twin strombergs.
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