Historic Sport Sedans

[4dnut]

Hi I run the Zakspeed Mk1 replica, i am desperately trying to get it going for the festival. Just had to take the engine out again to fix a small issue. Hopefully get it back in tomorrow after work. As for the question on YB engines, it can be a bit grey. What actually is a YB. Is it the turbo engine built by Ford/Cosworth or a you talking about something else. Some of the engines running were not built by Ford or Cosworth they are modern Smith and Jones engines. A S & J engine started as a YB but ended up taller and made of aluminium and with there own cylinder head.

[Howard Wood]

Hi I run the Zakspeed Mk1 replica, i am desperately trying to get it going for the festival. Just had to take the engine out again to fix a small issue. Hopefully get it back in tomorrow after work. As for the question on YB engines, it can be a bit grey. What actually is a YB. Is it the turbo engine built by Ford/Cosworth or a you talking about something else. Some of the engines running were not built by Ford or Cosworth they are modern Smith and Jones engines. A S & J engine started as a YB but ended up taller and made of aluminium and with there own cylinder head.

Exactly, so either way the engine and its derivatives were never available for homologation in the 1968 - 1974 Mk 1 Escort. Therefore a car so fitted will never comply with schedule K and if running in age grouped classes should be running in the period of the engine, ie at least post 1986.

[ERC]

Which is why we don't have an issue in the ERC Series!

What started as a pre 1977 series with run ons has had to morph into a rolling age group, as the number of pre 1977 cars available, shrinks. As pointed out above, the joy of handicap racing is that there is no real advantage, whether running a 1300 Escort or a 2 litre.

We are now running later cars, as even a 1990 cars is now 25 years old. Remember also that under T & C, the 'T' is supposed to be thoroughbred, yet no definition exists! We don't make any pretensions as to 'Historic', therefore run to our own set of rules - which doesn't please some outsiders, but some people seem to overlook the fact that all rules are written for the benefit and/or protection of competitors, not outsiders.

Each series has its own structure and philosophy and there are very few cars that can't slot in somewhere. The advantage is that meeting organisers dealing with group convenors, is far preferable to the days of old, when as a driver, you could be unceremoniously dumped into a totally inappropriate class.

[Habu]

Hi I run the Zakspeed Mk1 replica, i am desperately trying to get it going for the festival. Just had to take the engine out again to fix a small issue. Hopefully get it back in tomorrow after work. As for the question on YB engines, it can be a bit grey. What actually is a YB. Is it the turbo engine built by Ford/Cosworth or a you talking about something else. Some of the engines running were not built by Ford or Cosworth they are modern Smith and Jones engines. A S & J engine started as a YB but ended up taller and made of aluminium and with there own cylinder head.

So if the area of YB into Escort is grey, does this mean that a cast iron block (read Cortina / Sierra) with a "YB" type cylinder head would be acceptable as this is essentially what the Warrior/Connaught/Holbay engine is, which is compliant for classic rallying? Or is this effectively not within the "spirit" of the rules?

Dead keen to see your Zakspeed run again 4dnut as its always a bit of a personal highlight

[4dnut]

I was under the understanding that YB cylinder heads were not eligible for classic rallying overseas, that's why most escorts run BDG or the Connaught/warrior engine(which was deemed a continuation of old period cylinder head, and still available). YB was not in period. It's one of the things how much do you want to deviate, is a 4AGE essentially a BDA and we can use those. I don't buy the argument that people use YB because it's cheaper, it is not ,simple , what it does do is let you use an alloy block of different dimensions that enable engines to become 2.5litre plus. Yes an iron block YB would be more acceptable, but not correct, just less wrong.

[928]

I like your last sentence 4dnut, " more acceptable, but not correct,just less wrong". Can I quote it in debates please?

[Howard Wood]

What class are you running in at the Festival 4dnut? The options seem very limited this year, when the entries were open there was a Pre '78 Saloon box to tick, which I did and I also ticked the box for Heritage touring cars (weekend 1 only) as an extra. Now the race program has been published there is no Pre '78 class and as Dale has a full HMC grid I can't run there either. Unless I am missing something it looks like I will only be running with the Heritage Touring cars. Will definitely be hitting the organisers up for a refund!

[4dnut]

I would have liked to run my car in the Heritage touring cars, but gearbox is wrong. I bought a ZF for it on a punt from overseas before last festival. Cheap but condition commensurated the price. Gerry was happy for me to run there if I could change the gearbox. So given that I will have to run in with the Sport Sedan boys where I have done the last couple of years, not quite right there but cool running with some really neat cars. Also trying to get the Lotus 47 all going as well.

[Rod Grimwood]

I hope (will be) at HD next weekend and catch up with people on this.

I have had a bit of a shake up over the last 4 months with 2 major modifications 1 major rebuild and have just this day got home from another 3 days in the tune up centre and hopefully this is the last major tune up. I now have to run in the gear slowly and once settled will be back at full rev's.
See you then.

I believe it to be a good move to intergrate the Shellsport and other 2lt Sports Sedans in with the group. This is what happened back in mid 80s and it was a good class.

[John McKechnie]

Rod- your post....03-05-2013, 08:32 AM
I better get this thing in the garage together so John can come and run around with me. The more I read the more I wonder were I will run it. 1 roll cage ?. 2 slicks, never had anything else. 3 it has no inside except alloy panels. 4 only glass in windscreen, plastic elsewhere. 5 no muffler. 6 no radio. 7 no heater. 8 owner has no money but has a trailer.


Question answered.

[Kiwiboss]

What class are you running in at the Festival 4dnut? The options seem very limited this year, when the entries were open there was a Pre '78 Saloon box to tick, which I did and I also ticked the box for Heritage touring cars (weekend 1 only) as an extra. Now the race program has been published there is no Pre '78 class and as Dale has a full HMC grid I can't run there either. Unless I am missing something it looks like I will only be running with the Heritage Touring cars. Will definitely be hitting the organisers up for a refund!

Just a quickee guys, busy moving shop along with everything else life can throw at you(that's not motor-sport related) so have had little time recently.

Howard, bit of cock up for HSC for this event, the deal done to entice the Aussies back is they requested HMC and ATA be stand alone. I made this known some 6 months ago once the Aussies confirmed, unfortunately by the time myself, Steve and Tony took over HSC the class's were set for the Festival and there was no room for Historic Saloon Cars(U3L). It is only for this one event that this has happen(unless both groups become to big in the future) luckily for some Rays ERC group has been able to absorb them. For the Legends meeting end of March i expect us to put together a combined 30 car HMC/HSC grid, so aim for that, don't want much larger than this!!(and the weathers is much better in March)

4dnut, its Ray to the rescue your problem is solved, just race with ERC(or go on standby i guess at this stage?)

Dale M

[Howard Wood]

Thanks for the explanation Dale, I was a bit miffed when I saw the program as the 2 weekends of Festival were always planned to be my only racing this season.

Lucky the weather and fishing is good at the moment!

[ERC]

Just to bring you up to date, if you hadn't read it on the other thread.

ERC has never been invited to take part in the Festival as there was a perception in some quarters, that people could see us race at any time and the Festival was supposed to be a bit different. Not being particularly impressed with the size of the grids in 2014, I put forward a proposal to the Festival committee for one grid and my reasons for doing so - but only after canvassing our drivers to see what level of support I would get.

Although there is a large speed differential between the two groups, they can and do drive together without major issues (33 entered for Taupo this weekend and 29 finished the last race).

As usual, quite a few drivers did not adhere to our procedures and clear their entries with me first and we ended up with 59 entered for the Festival, meaning a full grid of 46 cars and 13 reserves!

Although all will in fact run, several have been shifted into other groups and they include John Hudson's BMW 2002 and Zac Lawrence's 635, into the Sports GT grid, which is effectively now a sports, GT and saloons grid, so Howard's BMW would slot in there quite easily.

I say easily, as this was a bone of contention previously for many of the regulars (including myself), with standard road cars thrown in against out and out sports racing cars and full race GTs and sports cars on slicks. Getting lapped within 5 or six laps and just trundling around in scratch races, just meant a lonely race each time and also only getting 7 laps instead of 8 in every race. Others saw it the same way.

Having almost 60 cars entered this year in the ERC grid, there are obviously enough cars to support our two regular grids but it is always the organisers' prerogative to decide what they want at their meetings. If they invite a specific series, whether as a points round or not, it is then normally up to that series committee or convenor as to whether or not they will accept overseas or outsider entrants.

The Festival aims to attract overseas drivers and for that to be successful, there have to be grids to accommodate them. HMC is happy to communicate and get the support of Australia which is great. It may or may not work as well with other grids.

Thankfully, this year's event has a larger field than in any previous year, but it is feedback from spectators and competitors (positive and negative) to the organisers that is important. If people only email or post positive feedback on the social media, then it is easy to believe that all is always well and rosy. Those of us in positions of control or influence also need negative feedback, so that we can assess where there may be a need for change.

Incidentally, 4dnut's car is a full out race car, running on slicks (correct me if I am wrong!) not a trimmed road-going car, therefore is not eligible for the ERC series. There has always been a need for a race saloons class.

[4dnut]

Hi Ray,
Escort doesn't run on slicks(it has done),I use Dot tyres. As for interior, it has door trims, hood lining, a proper dash, rear parcel tray, just doesn't have carpets and only one seat.

[4dnut]

Just a quick note, Escort all going, but alas entry in to Sports Sedans and Allcomers was declined because of the gearbox. So although I think it would have fitted in OK, and runs nice with a few of the V8 cars I won't be running it. I appreciate John M's efforts but organisers say no. I am not sure if I can be bothered to run the Lotus 47 now either.

[ERC]

OK 4dnut. Wouldn't be a problem for the series for the future, but obviously way too late for this year's Festival!

[Kevin Hirst]

OK 4dnut. Wouldn't be a problem for the series for the future, but obviously way too late for this year's Festival!

Can somebody please explain the word allcomer to me , When I raced that class many years ago you could build anvthing you wanted iefiat 500 with ford1500cc engines sitting almost beside the driver now you have to have the right gearbox in an escort to enter? god I would be p---d off, having that sort of machine and not allowed to race,

[Rod Grimwood]

That was along time ago Kevin, and if you had same car/gear ok.

It is 'Historic Sports Sedans'. Ok there are/have been a few other cars previous to help with grid to get class going and interest. These cars have been in the "spirit' of what used to run with Sports Sedans some times back in 80s.
This Escort is a beaut and has been built immaculately with the best gear, and is a rocket ship but unfortunately it is not historic.

Gearbox is not as run by cars back then. We will not start on 'YB' as that is mine field. would be great to have this car running but work needs to be done on how.

[Jac Mac]

Can somebody please explain the word allcomer to me , When I raced that class many years ago you could build anvthing you wanted iefiat 500 with ford1500cc engines sitting almost beside the driver now you have to have the right gearbox in an escort to enter? god I would be p---d off, having that sort of machine and not allowed to race,

Have to agree with you Kevin, there is such a broad spectrum of cars from thoughout at least four decades of NZ motorsport that it seems crazy to bring in rules like this, especially when most of these cars were built and raced when there were very few rules... even more so when the organisers keep repeating that the cars are the stars and rewards are chocolate fish....but that seems to be the avenue that NZ Motorsport is hell bent on travelling down. All I can say to 4dnut is go south young man- SFOS where they still seem to consider a car on the track is better than one in the shed.... although the times are a changing and influences from up north are trying to spread this trend country wide.

[Andrew Metford]

If the grid is fully subscribed with correct-specification cars, then ok, but if not, then it's rather disheartening to have people, who have supported and raced with the classic brigade for many years and are well known as clean respectful racers, with immaculately built and maintained cars, being turned away because they have the wrong gearbox. I know I'd rather be watching cars with the wrong gearbox than empty tarmac. People pay to come and watch cars race. Maybe paying spectators is not a desire of the organisers? Unless you read this forum, Joe Public won't have a clue what gearbox is in any particular car.

I'm coming over from Perth in Western Australia specifically for both weekends of the Festival, so it's a bit of a hike to watch half empty grids. Just saying…...