Historic Sport Sedans

[Steve Holmes]

Attachment 22818
I have just come back from spending 3 hours with Graeme Addis.
Here is how it looks, brilliantly engineered back then an stunning now.
No modern updates to spoil this time capsule.
It is repainted and hand sign written by the same guy.
He started it up for me- instantly -runs so smoothly.
Sounds fantastic to the ears. .
Thanks so much Graeme for inviting me into your workshop , going over the original build, the rebuild and now I can post this pic and say.....It lives, it breathes, he cant wait to get it back where it belongs-on the track.
There was no hand book to build this car everything is a tribute to Graeme logical thinking and sheer determination.
The rebuild shares the same with absolutely no shortcuts.
Grant Sprague- this is the car your Dad and Leo came second to Rod and Jim in the Benson and Hedges 1972.Will you come to see it run again?

Wow, sure is cool to see this car again. I remember it as a kid, and was fascinated by it as Graeme developed it through to its final guise, where it was essentially a Can-Am car with a Charger body draped over the top. The open rear end was for the ground-effects, and the whirring of the trans-axle spinning around in full view was mesmerising. Just a mad car built during a period where creative thinking was king. Looking back, most Sports Sedan fields were usually pretty thin on the ground. Sometimes the fields wouldn't even reach double digits. But the cars themselves were so bold, loud, unpredictable, lively, aggressive, eccentric, that you soon forgot how small the grid was.

[Howard Wood]

Even though I'm across the other side of the pacific, I think Dale is correct. There are lots of events to run the 'hotrods", so keep the Hampton Downs event a "signature event" for the period correct cars/Drivers.

Thank you Horizon.

Surely this one meeting is prestigious and important enough to attract and allow only period correct cars. A bit chicken and egg, I know but if we don't make the effort we are doomed to have "Historic" grids full of YB Escorts and nobody with any wiff of a competitive streak will contemplate building a period correct car.

On the other hand, if owners of period correct cars don't support this one event, we will only have ourselves to blame if the event promotors allow Hot Rods back next time.

[Rod Grimwood]

Thank you Horizon.

Surely this one meeting is prestigious and important enough to attract and allow only period correct cars. A bit chicken and egg, I know but if we don't make the effort we are doomed to have "Historic" grids full of YB Escorts and nobody with any wiff of a competitive streak will contemplate building a period correct car.

On the other hand, if owners of period correct cars don't support this one event, we will only have ourselves to blame if the event promotors allow Hot Rods back next time.

That's it in a nutshell Howard, but it will take a couple of meetings for the older cars to reappear. There are meetings that the 'new' cars can run at and in reality, if you are going to go to the expense and time of building one of these with all the latest gear, you are competitive and need to run with similar people and cars at similar competitive meetings.

[ERC]

Surely, the key factor is period bodyshell, engine, gearbox, wheel sizes, bodyshell materials etc?

Fitting a modern rev limiter to save over revving? Why not? Fitting electronic ignition for reliability? Why not? Reliability keeps the cars on the track and visible for all to see. A high attrition rate does no-one any favours and is likely to see a car or cars consigned to the back of the garage, maybe for ever.

People generally fit more modern ancillaries for reliability, but they don't really detract from the car. No excuse whatever for Kevlar bonnets, airboxes, bonnets, or sequential gearboxes, or non period wheels though.

Ultimately, the other competitors will decide what is allowable, be that as a committee or a poll of drivers. If the class/series rules mean that a class is not invited to a specific event, so be it. I have no problem with that as it has been happening for the last few years anyway. If any class is no longer invited to any events then they will presumably change their rules or philosophy, but conversely, if classes are always losing money by only fronting up with half a dozen cars, then they are not exactly going to be welcomed either.

You have to give any class time to establish itself and once it is fully established, invitations will pour in. When oversubscribed, rules can be tightened if required.

The overall critical factor is a respect for the other cars on the track and an acceptance that it is about participation.

[nzeder]

I was going to write a long post but I think Ray's post above sums it up nicely.

Period body work, drivetrain, rims sizing and materials (where available as per the recent and pleased to see note in the currnet rules - quoted below)

Note: An application can be made to the Historic & Classic Commission via it’s Chairperson, when the applicant deems that are particular part of interior or exterior trim is no longer available, or viable to be used in competition. The Commission will review the application and accompanying proof of reason and will determine if derogation is granted. This will then be noted in the vehicle’s COD. Note that the vehicle must have a COD (Certificate of Description).

T&C as they are today is simple when it comes to body work (and it lays it out plan and simple) so not sure how we have so many "hotrods" when it comes to bodywork.

The vehicle shall be smartly maintained and have all exterior trim in place. It must retain bumpers if originally fitted. All panels, bumpers, mouldings, spoilers etc. must be made of the original materials as per the STANDARD series Production vehicle. eg; steel panels must be retained if originally fitted. Period modifications are permissible.
(1) Only rear wings (aerofoil) which were available for the car in period may be fitted. These must be
made of materials from that period. ie; no Kevlar.
(2) Any/all modifications must be in period (refer definitions)

The key words in there for me are "STANDARD series production vehicle". So a Mk1 Escort with bubble flares is not "STANDARD series production vehicle" I know that statement might up set a few but it is my understanding that Ford never sold a bubble flared car to the general public in enough numbers to satisfy the FIA for Group 1 homologation (which was standard series production for Saloons) but they were allowed to get Group 3 for these as a modified saloon based on standard series production vehicle. The FIA group 3 papers also show Escort bubbles flares were "Steel" so given replcias can be had in "Steel" then under the material above then they should be "Steel" or am I completely wrong. MSNZ Schedule K allows for these period body mods but T&C does not if I read the rule correctly.

[John McKechnie]

This thread is about Sports Sedans- bumpers?
Think you have wrong thread for this.

[nzeder]

This thread is about Sports Sedans- bumpers?
Think you have wrong thread for this.

Not really - T&C = Bumper in the rules. Depends on event in question if Schedule K then as ran in period for a given/chosen period of the car in question.

If the cars or class is running under T&C then T&C rules apply and that is bumpers/full exterior trim - that is what is states in the rules you can't argue that can you? If so = "hotrod" and that is point - other have mentioned "hotrods" and under T&C today without bumpers = "hotrod" in the loose term or illegal if you like.

[ERC]

I think that what nzeder is alluding to is that this class of historic race saloons may not be adequately covered by the existing NZ regulations as to what is deemed a classic/historic race saloon car.

Which is why, any invitation race/series running to its own regulations is the way to go, much as that may upset some! I am more than happy to leave it entirely to John and Rod as to what they deem acceptable, as at this stage, this is a one off invitation to a race meeting and the intention is to get some much loved cars out on track.

AFTER the festival, let's just see what the general feeling is, as George has already discovered, it is far from easy getting an acceptable structure together then getting the support for it, translated to cars on a starting grid.

[nzeder]

Thanks Ray - that explains my point better - currently under the rules laid out by MSNZ don't allow someone like me who was not around or watching these cars run back in the day (but I must admit I watch old footage of these cars ) see how these cars fit under the current Appendix VI rules - Schedule K looks correct to me but then the rules would not allow for them to run if they ran things like dual MC setup (just one example in the rules there are others)

It can get confusing really quickly espeically if you don't know what rules the cars in question ran back in the day - so you are relying on the current set of rules which might not fit the cars as they ran...now I have my brain going around and around it hurts....stop thinking...time for a red wine and some dinner I think.

[John McKechnie]

Why do you want to get bogged down with all these rules ?
Just come out, watch, and enjoy the cars.

[nigel watts]

Oh boy am I glad I'm just a spectator - all this talk about rules and regulations gives me a headache!!

[CUSTAXIE50]

Cant we just get on and race these cars and put all this bull shit and pc to one side, look here i said before when the Custaxie 2 had its first run at manfeild the kids of today just could not believe that something like that was raced in nz 47 years ago,being it on thats the racing they all want to see or has it become to hard to understand that today.

[RogerH]

Cant we just get on and race these cars and put all this bull shit and pc to one side, look here i said before when the Custaxie 2 had its first run at manfeild the kids of today just could not believe that something like that was raced in nz 47 years ago,being it on thats the racing they all want to see or has it become to hard to understand that today.

This is part of the problem - Custaxie 2 does not represent to those kids something that was raced 47 years ago. As we have discussed at length before, at best it is a modern tribute to something that was raced 47 years ago. There are enough of the real old cars around to give the kids the "real" story. Events like the Festival and the Roycroft meeting are trying to provide the venue for cars that really represent past periods.

It seems from spectator numbers from past Festival events and pre sales to the current event, that there is a demand for coming and seeing the more "pure" historic and classic cars.

The "hot rods" have opportunities at other meetings but I would guess that spectator numbers at those events would be a fraction of the Festival - maybe a message here?

[CUSTAXIE50]

This is part of the problem - Custaxie 2 does not represent to those kids something that was raced 47 years ago. As we have discussed at length before, at best it is a modern tribute to something that was raced 47 years ago. There are enough of the real old cars around to give the kids the "real" story. Events like the Festival and the Roycroft meeting are trying to provide the venue for cars that really represent past periods.

It seems from spectator numbers from past Festival events and pre sales to the current event, that there is a demand for coming and seeing the more "pure" historic and classic cars.

The "hot rods" have opportunities at other meetings but I would guess that spectator numbers at those events would be a fraction of the Festival - maybe a message here?

well if thats the case the capri and the rx7 we see up here can not race because they are out of period today,what would someone have to do to make you happy about a car like the custaxie and others fit into what you call the real old cars and give the real story.

[Frosty5]

well if thats the case the capri and the rx7 we see up here can not race because they are out of period today,what would someone have to do to make you happy about a car like the custaxie and others fit into what you call the real old cars and give the real story.

ALLCOMERS?????????????

[Rod Grimwood]

As said before, this is not a championship/series, it is a chance to run the cars and give the spectators alook at them. Just leave the politics to a later date and it will be dealt with then if needed, first off lets have some cars on the grid.
Don't try and cut this off at the knees before it gets going, I can debate and will when the time is right or if it is too hard basket, I have a nice new fishing rod. I also have another car to spend my time on.

NZDER; I have one of the older Escorts that did alot of racing years back, glass flares, boot, bonnet, bumpers (as Shell Sport) and I will not be changing it.
The electrical thing is common sense if it is going to make it more reliable. agree
But some of the engines were not available back then as they are now. agree
Wheels should be standard size etc. agree

Custaxie; The Capri, and RX7 ran in Sports Sedans years ago so no problem at moment. And the Custaxie is welcome (who cares about this is not as it was, and it did not have that) remember this about the cars not ego's and championships

[Shoreboy57]

[QUOTE=Rod Grimwood;36047]As said before, this is not a championship/series, it is a chance to run the cars and give the spectators alook at them. Just leave the politics to a later date and it will be dealt with then if needed, first off lets have some cars on the grid.

Couldn't agree more - cars on the grid, driven in the right manner. No '61 sharknose Ferraris survive. Yet a couple of replicas have been built. Would we not welcome them? Goodwood did.

[ERC]

[QUOTE=Shoreboy57;36048]

Couldn't agree more - cars on the grid, driven in the right manner. No '61 sharknose Ferraris survive. Yet a couple of replicas have been built. Would we not welcome them? Goodwood did.

Plus the Lancia D50's. I happily took pics of them at Goodwood and knew what they were, but they still look good, sound good and give us a taste of what we missed. There is no intention to deceive.

I personally don't care if the Custaxie isn't a 100% true copy as I never saw it in period. As long as it has a period engine and no-one has fitted a Nissan Turbo engine to it. They wouldn't allow that to race at the festival now would they... (Waits for response.)

All comers - but with period parts? No problem. Collect a pile of bits and build your period saloon car special. Brilliant. Just don't expect the historians to approve if "it wasn't done in period", nor the H & C commission. And therein lies the real problem. Different philosophies - and neither are wrong.

Agree with you Rod.

[nzeder]

I will be there watching, that is a given. I enjoyed the watching of classic racing and these festivals.

And the rules thing - I get it but for someone who was not watching racing when these cars ran, then you think that is just outstanding how could you build a replica and race today - and from the rules as they are it is impossible to replicate a car from this era as T&C and Schedule K don't cover them. Schedule CR might but again to me that looks like open wheeler focused. So I guess this is why some have issues with Custaxi 2.

NZDER; I have one of the older Escorts that did alot of racing years back, glass flares, boot, bonnet, bumpers (as Shell Sport) and I will not be changing it.

That is great it would be good to see Shell Sport cars again - those I did see on TV and at the track when younger - and for "the car" I would not change it either, just the rules make it hard to replicate one as if there is no FIA documentation (or COD as we have today) for the car as built and ran in period then you have no evidence to build another the same = you have to use other evidence ie FIA documentation which states "steel bubble flares"

So from all this I get replicas of cars that once were can't be built = it has to the real car or nothing else - which is sad it would be good to a mix of makes/models as they once were.

"as it was, as it should be"

[John McKechnie]

nzeder-
So from all this I get replicas of cars that once were can't be built = it has to the real car or nothing else - which is sad it would be good to a mix of makes/models as they once were.

Keep up with the entry list for the answer to this.