Thanks for the reply Ray.And noted re handicap system and the way you run the class.
Unfortunately my question was largely hypothetical, in as far as I do not have the funds nor the time to build and run another race car (one is enough to keep me busy!) but an 02 with S14 is something I would like to see out there giving the YB Escorts a hard time! Like the Ford, it is a relatively straightforward conversion, and has been done many times overseas.
cheers Conrad
Conrad. If you get a S14 block and put it beside an M10 block you will easily see the difference. The S14 block has an oilway down the side, so when you fit the M3 head to your M10 block, it produces a very big oil leak, and the engine soon produces strange knocking noises. LOL... I know, when my S14 block cracked, I've tried the M10 route. (unsuccessfully!!!)
And offcourse what amazes me RacerT is that these guys build their “Hotrods” or “SportSedans” without even opening the rule book, but in good faith to race at “Club” level meetings then over time they change their minds and wish to race at “Historic and Classic” events because this looks like more fun and hey, one can bring a “gun to a knife fight” but get peeved when they’re turned away or put in an open type “All-Comer” groups where others have an even greater performance advantage!! I find the same old excuse is used “its cheaper to do this, do that” to modify ones race car outside the rules, well if one doesn’t like the cost he should reconsider his chosen sport!!Originally Posted by RacerT
True historic or classic class’s are based around a rule formula from the past that is pretty much used world-wide even though here in NZ we have our own idea of this but to me the MSNZ T&C regulations is what we have and works if you have "Historic Thinking” and as mentioned before by me it’s just never been enforced like the Aussie’s do which is a shame. Whether its cricket, rugbee, soccer they all have rules to work too and isn’t that how democratic nations are run? Now Ray runs his ERC series with an “iron fist” as “invited only” series and has his followers, cool!! But has no rules and penalises faster cars on lap time, this is NOT classic racing although some of the cars in his group probably do conform to T&C but to me this its NOT democratic and harks a bit of the “3rd Reich” here. On the other hand(and I use HMC as im involved here) we are not an invited race group, our rules are based on historic and classic T&C and FIA Group 5 saloon regulations and allow “ANYONE” to race as long as there vehicle meets the rules, that is democracy and how classic and historic racing should be. Now you can shoot me down with your keyboard Ray about all the pros and cons, bla,bla,bla but I still say to you that I do appreciate your ERC series in the fact that gives all these “non-built to rules” historic and classic cars a place to run and as NZ has plenty you attract big grids, fantastic and you do a great job!! but its still not proper historic racing, sorry!! Dale M
Conrad,
I raised the time line of the YB/ FVA/ BDA series because those cars had been mentioned as examples of "Hot Rods" but you are absolutely correct with the parallel with the BMW S14/ M10/ M12/6 engines. An '02 with an S14 would not only be cheaper to build than one fitted with the correct M10 SOHC 2 litre engine but at 360hp would be making 125 more hp than the works injected cars made in period and a whopping 150 more hp than we currently manage on carbuettors.
Interestingly an '02 with the period correct M12/6 which made 295hp in enduro specs and 315hp in F2 spec in period would be fully sched K compliant AND would blow the dood handles off even most of the YB engined Escorts. Pity about the engine's 50,000 euro price tag and 1000km between full rebuilds!
Which brings us back to the issue here, it is both easier and cheaper to simply stuff later model gear into an old car rather than build and develop a sched K compliant period correct car. There are plenty of places to run such a hybrid, Ray's series and the BMW series being probably the best run and supported examples with pragmatic rules which suit their competitors. However surely there needs to be a place for the period correct cars as well and it seems to me that events such as the Festival which are promoted as "Historic" meetings are the appropriate place for this.
Whether these period correct classes prosper or die will depend on how well they are promoted, run and policed and how much support they get from the available competitors. Dale's HMC is an example which so far ticks all those boxes and seems to be going from strength to strength.
So far the main focus of this discussion seems to be the use of modern engines that are large in CC so more HP can be achieved. Is this the only issue with these cars? It appears that is the stance.
So to keep this going a bit more lets talk about other areas that might cause issues with some. What about gearboxes of diffs from other manufactures is this within the spirit of classic racing???
For example a common gearbox that people use in older cars be it a Ford Escort, Jag, Triumph is a Toyota item or a Toyota diff - is this an issue?
The T&C rules allow gearbox and diff changes so long as the parts are period
So I assume no one has issues with these changes as they might only make the car more reliable which is a good thing + the rules allow these changes.Gearbox and overdrive may be changed to another that was available in the same period as the car depicts and must have the same number of forward ratios as standard
Or would this make some think of these cars as a "hotrod - in the loose sense as we are discussing here"
Last edited by nzeder; 12-06-2013 at 12:21 AM.
Absolutely its an issue and NOT allowed under sched K which should be the benchmark. Even under T & C, although a different 'box from the period is allowed, the number of ratios must remain the same, ie no 5 speed Escort etc.
Last edited by Howard Wood; 12-06-2013 at 12:25 AM.
The issue of Conrad's hypothetical BMW 2002 S14 re-power and Ray's hypothetical acceptance of it in the ERC series raises concerns.
We have a BMW 2002 which has a T&C COD - the car races in Ray's ERC series. We have spent lots effort and money in building a compliant M10 race engine for it. I would be pretty upset if in the same race (if our 2002 improved its lap time by around 1 second it could move to the Arrows grid) an identical looking BMW 2002 was lapping at around 10 seconds a lap quicker. The handicap system makes no difference - it is demonstrably obvious that one apparently identical car is considerably quicker than the other. The conclusion for the vast majority who wouldn't know that one car had a modern engine, would be that it looks as though our car is either poorly developed or has a poor driver (or both). I think this would lead to us getting p….ed off and ultimately leaving our car in the garage - a genuine and compliant classic race car removed from racing due to a "hotrod"?? It has happened quite a few times already.
Your last two paragraphs Howard, I agree, 100%.
That brings me to another question which (have a look at my build thread on this site) I would like to discuss with someone like you Howard that has a Schedule K approved car - however this is not the place for that so maybe if I post my question in my build thread you can help me and maybe get my car as Schedule K not just T&C.
No problem, fire away. I am however no authority on sched K, merely from the outset of the '02 project I wanted to build it as a period correct Group 2 replica so researched the period specs including Homologation papers, the FIA Group 2 regulations for 1973 and current schedule K regulations for that particular model and drew up a build sheet before laying a spanner on it.
Before anyone says that is anal or needs a lie down, the same principle applies to any regulated class from Formula Ford to Super Tourers, you need to build to the regulations. What's more, via the magic of the interweb most of this information is easy to access.
Thanks Howard I had not downloaded the FIA Appendix J for the period in question - I have now
Great contributions everyone. RogerH brings up the valid query of mixing pure and less pure. There are places for both to run so throughout the season, ERC supports maybe 7 events.
Generally this is one TACCOC event - where they accept the series for what it is and their remaining events are for the more pure cars, so they have a foot in both camps.
We do 4 HRC meetings where we are welcomed as a series, 2 HD, 1 Taupo and 1 Pukekohe - but the 'pure' series also run at these events. (HMC & U3L)
We accepted an invitation to an NZGP meeting this season as a one off, but we are not short of meeting invites at the moment.
We also run one meeting of our own - we are obviously welcome!
What that means is that any/all other race meetings can invite the pure cars as specific classes if they so wish, and that obviously includes the two invitation Festival meetings, plus the annual Manfeild November meeting.
Those with purer cars can therefore enter a minimum of maybe a dozen meetings locally, a year. How many do you want?
Those with less pure, non-CoD cars can enter our 7, plus any other (non-classic) club meetings (not sure what the requirements are for Manfeild these days).
To say that mixing the two philosophies of cars will force cars into the garages is simply a matter of personal choice. We welcome the pure and the less pure just as long as they all drive to the standards we expect. It is as simple as that and until such times as HRC and TACCOC withdraw their invitations, all are relatively happy. It may not be perfect but as HRC have made it clear that we are still invited, plus one meeting of our own, we are guaranteed 5 meetings a year and if the worst came to the worst as we only count the best 5 scores anyway, we would still have a very valid series that I hope is cost effective for the promoters (45 cars for TACCOC's Sunday meeting out of total of 140).
Last edited by ERC; 12-06-2013 at 04:16 AM.
At last a sensible solution. Now the the 3 cars I was building can/will all be accepted. Um,,,,,,,,,, are there 2 spare drivers around. If Jim Richards and Wayne Huxford are unavailable that is........................
Hi, I haven't been on here for a while, but I will put my 2 cents in. I have a period correct Sch k RS1600, 100% correct. Due to organisers letting non compliant cars run in Classic Car racing I retired it. In no way does T & C allow an escort to run a YB cosworth engine let alone an alloy block and EFI. Actually when you read T&C it has to have same number of forward gears as standard, escort only ever had 4 speed standard, 5speed was homologated so sould only be for a sch k car ,so running my 4 speed BDG car at 10,200 rpm against 5 speed YB cars I was a whisker annoyed. That's why I built my Zakspeed replica car. I figured if anything goes I will do the same. I am currently rebuilding my correct car. I will run it when other similar cars are running other than that I will run my hotrod with the other hotrods.I was strange when I turned up with it it was the people with hotrods that complained. I had the sequential gearbox before this project and decided to use it as it was obvious you didn't have to run the correct gearbox. I know my gearbox isn't right but either is running a 5 speed toyota in an escort if you want to stick to the rules. I see Ray mentioned my car wouldn't be eligible to the gearbox, I guess my mistake was being open, as an escort has been running in Arrow/Taccoc meetings for over a year with 6 speed seq gearbox, I guess he forgot to mention it. I am currently fitting 5 speed ZF to zak car, hopefully that calms people down.
So which car is running a sequential gearbox? I need assistance here, as I am trying to identify totally non-compliant cars. We don't run under T & C rules, but as a one man committee we don't have the luxury of a series scrutineer or technical officer and rely on drivers abiding by the spirit of the rules, which to date, has worked surprisingly well. There will always be drivers trying to push the the limits. Generally, a word in the ear is enough and a decent amount of time is allowed to bring a car into line.
I presume the guilty party has not won the series though, as rarely does the fastest car win, as it requires solid performances and support throughout the whole season. Once again, the benefit of handicaps based on performance.
Last edited by ERC; 12-07-2013 at 10:02 AM.
No one now. He has removed it and is fitting a period correct 5 Speed ZF H pattern.
Nice work 4dnut.
Last edited by Andrew Metford; 12-07-2013 at 11:42 AM.
That car wasn't running in our series anyway JAFA! Got your PM thanks. The comment refers to another Escort that DOES run in ERC series and 4dnut pointed it out to me yesterday, so I am now aware and will take appropriate action. I am not sure how long that car has had a sequential gearbox as it was bought from another driver - who also raced in the series for just one or two seasons.
so, I guess that, aside from being outside the rules, 5 and 6 speed sequential gearboxes will not win races then? Oh dear, back to the drawing board. more power, bigger tyres, wheel arches, could I run that huge rear wing? decisions, decisions. all for fun as well.
and to add cheating may not get you to the front.
Last edited by 928; 12-08-2013 at 10:05 PM. Reason: added comment
The late Jimmy Chrystall came equal top in the first year I was involved, when it was 1 scratch race and one handicap (which is a bias towards the fastest cars). The reason I even got involved is well known and also involved Mr C.
I announced at the last round (and after presenting the BMC trophy to Jim/Nick Wilcox) that the format was going to change to two handicaps only.
Jim's grip on the trophy tightened and his eyes blazed, his face reddened "You are turning it into nothing but a lottery!" With that, he turned on his heels and marched away clutching the trophy and he refused to return it. Poor Nick never did get his hands on the trophy.
A matter of months before he died, he did in fact return the trophy, so we renamed it the "Jimmy Chrystall Memorial Trophy" for 4 cylinder BMC cars.
"Turning the series into a lottery" may well have been just the spur we needed to construct our rules in a such a way that there was no guaranteed way to win. Jimmy was the also the reason why it was constructed (with legal advice) into an Invitation Series. The rest, as they say, is history.
Oh and 928, Mike John also tried bribery, but that didn't work either. If you want to win, the best chance is to turn up to as many events as possible - but our own meeting, the final round, is double points...
Good meeting TACCOC, yesterday, but the weather played absolute havoc being so changeable. The final HMC/Pre 78 grid down to just 4 cars risking it. John McKechnie and David Thompson, plus Ricky Cooper and John Sampson who had already raced in the Arrow Wheels race.
you turned down money for more entries, scandalous I thought I that offering you the wife would win the series after 3 meetings. now you tell me double points at the last round. howabout the wife and her friend, and i will only run a 5 speed sequential at 2 meetings and a 4 speed at the other meetings.
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