NZeder's Datsun 260z Build Thread

[nzeder]

So that is/was the road car project (pervious few post on page 4). With MSNZ changing the main hoop size rule upgrading this cage to a full cage was out of the question therefore I purchased the full caged 260z at the start of this thread.

Now back to this flared car as I have been putting more of it back together to make room for the full caged car in the shed I was thinking why am I installing a modern twin cam engine (on carbs to look like the twin cam that nissan fitted to the s30 chassic in Japan). Given the body work replicates the Group 4 body work why don't I have 2 racing Datsun 260z. One to T&C rule (aka fully caged 260z with stock body work) and one schedule k/fia appendix j group 4 replica (aka flared Datsun 260z). I have enough period parts to build both these cars so that is what I have decided to do.

[nzeder]

My idea of racing something different and 100% correct to the rules one car for T&C and one for Schedule K has been short lived I feel as with the latest update from the HMC who have stated the under 3l grid will not accept non saloon based production cars.

So I will have 2 classless cars both were to be 100% to the respective rules (I was going to get COD for both) but sounds like these are the types of cars people don't want to see on the track. They want more of the same saloons. So I have the wrong cars for racing in NZ it seems. So what is someone like me to do?

I am pleased ERC will allow me to run and that is where the T&C car will live once complete.

So I might as well just dump a V8 into the flared car and just do club days (not classic racing of any sort) with that car? But then I would have to dump all the period brakes etc so I can stop the thing and be slightly competitive which is unlikely with a 40+ year old chassis design and not what I want to do.

A number of years ago I owned a very tidy Datsun 160jsss (710) that I wanted to turn into a classic race car but with no grid for such a car I reluctantly sold the car (should not have let it go very rare car these days) this car would fit the under 3l saloon rule but as I don't have that car anymore that option has long gone.

Does make one just want to sell everything up and walk away from the sport I have followed for some 25+ years and that is classic racing, modern forms of the sport don't have the draw IMHO. Then just hop on my motorbike and never attend another classic race/event.

[Oldfart]

I know how you feel Mike. Moving targets are never nice. The increasing costs of licences, COD etc haven't helped me one tiny bit to get back into events either.
Unfortunately the marketplace is full of m'sport cars which aren't selling so that choice is not easy either.
Personally I love the variety and the "all the same" leaves me dead cold. Even some of the so called Classic Car classes are a joke where the quoted HP figures are so far out of line with what the very best engine builders could get "in the day" turn it all into a joke. Your efforts to be period correct would have been great. Perhaps take a few deep breaths before pulling the plug entirely.
In my case closer to 50 years following the sport after the costs started to get out of hand it became more sideline than taking part. Oh for the "good old days" when it was affordable for any bloke.

[Kiwiboss]

My idea of racing something different and 100% correct to the rules one car for T&C and one for Schedule K has been short lived I feel as with the latest update from the HMC who have stated the under 3l grid will not accept non saloon based production cars.

So I will have 2 classless cars both were to be 100% to the respective rules (I was going to get COD for both) but sounds like these are the types of cars people don't want to see on the track. They want more of the same saloons. So I have the wrong cars for racing in NZ it seems. So what is someone like me to do?

I am pleased ERC will allow me to run and that is where the T&C car will live once complete.

So I might as well just dump a V8 into the flared car and just do club days with that car? But then I would have to dump all the period brakes etc so I can stop the thing and be slightly competitive which is unlikely with a 40+ year old chassis design and not what I want to do.

A number of years ago I owned a very tidy Datsun 160jsss that I wanted to turn into a classic race car but with no grid for such a car I reluctantly sold the car (should not have let it go very rare car these days) this car would fit the under 3l saloon rule but as I don't have that car anymore that option has long gone.

Does make one just want to sell everything up and walk away from the sport I have followed for some 25+ years and that is classic racing, modern forms of the sport don't have the draw IMHO. Then just hop on my motorbike and never attend another classic race/event.

Settle down Mike as you are still on the rite track, all that's going to happen is having a Saloon car grid and Sports car grid(under K and T&C) and from time to time they will come together, there is more to this than I have time to type but come and talk to me at the Ice Breaker.

But as a point of interest even the likes of Tony Roberts corvette can't race with us been a sports Car and he's a HMC director but in the future at events like the Ice Breaker and Legends there will the two groups(as there is at the Festival and how its done overseas), I've had a person wanting to build a Pantera for HMC but as its a Sports car its not eligible, a Bowell Nagari was another, allowing these cars in would have a devastating effect on the field and drive away the saloon car owners.

Gotta run

Dale M

[Paul Wilkinson]

Not to mention the fact that you'll have a beautiful car that is 'right' and that because of your diligence will increase in value greatly over the coming years and be internationally collectable like other Japanese exotics. Sometimes owning something beautiful is its own reward. It may not have a home for now but you'll get to race it and enjoy it. People who 'know' will appreciate it and why would you worry what those that don't, think?

[nzeder]

Not to mention the fact that you'll have a beautiful car that is 'right' and that because of your diligence will increase in value greatly over the coming years and be internationally collectable like other Japanese exotics. Sometimes owning something beautiful is its own reward. It may not have a home for now but you'll get to race it and enjoy it. People who 'know' will appreciate it and why would you worry what those that don't, think?

Very true in Japan the zeds are going for good money these days.

They will not be for sale for years, as I can still get many years of enjoyment from both of these cars.

[nzeder]

But as a point of interest even the likes of Tony Roberts corvette can't race with us been a sports Car and he's a HMC director but in the future at events like the Ice Breaker and Legends there will the two groups(as there is at the Festival and how its done overseas), I've had a person wanting to build a Pantera for HMC but as its a Sports car its not eligible, a Bowell Nagari was another, allowing these cars in would have a devastating effect on the field and drive away the saloon car owners.

Gotta run

Dale M

ok but in Tony's car case and like wise a Pantera or a Bowell Nagari none of these cars are under 3l so don't fit that class/group. So what has that got to do with the under 3l class? It is a shame cars like the 240z/260z, TR4, TR7, Lotus Elan, Arthur's Alfa are all excluded as the factory did not fit a back seat but Escort and other 2+2 can and can even remove the rear seats aka now 2 seaters. I guess that is the bit I don't understand. Why can't we just have under 3l production based classic cars. FIA defines Sports Cars as purpose built 2 seater specials built for just the track not the road and not mass produced. 2 seater production mass produced are usually called GT cars and where allowed on the same grids in period as other period production classes, sure might be in a different groups for points but on the same grid.

[Kiwiboss]

ok but in Tony's car case and like wise a Pantera or a Bowell Nagari none of these cars are under 3l so don't fit that class/group. So what has that got to do with the under 3l class? It is a shame cars like the 240z/260z, TR4, TR7, Lotus Elan, Arthur's Alfa are all excluded as the factory did not fit a back seat but Escort and other 2+2 can and can even remove the rear seats aka now 2 seaters. I guess that is the bit I don't understand. Why can't we just have under 3l production based classic cars. FIA defines Sports Cars as purpose built 2 seater specials built for just the track not the road and not mass produced. 2 seater production mass produced are usually called GT cars and where allowed on the same grids in period as other period production classes, sure might be in a different groups for points but on the same grid.

Well now heres a great opportunity for you Mike, you should get in, start and organise(all voluntary just like me) a Historic Sports Car Class for U3L and O3L production Sports cars and deal with all the shit that goes with it because of the miss management of historic racing that has been in this country for years, anyway, when looking at most NZ and Australian historic racing these vehicles very rarely ran together if at all. I look at old Saloon car pictures from Baypark, Pukey and alike(early days) and these were always Saloons running together and this is what HMC is suppose to represent(just like the American Historic Trans Am) and I've always said from the get go that "Saloons" is what HMC is about but its funny how it gets watered down over time and that's why the brakes are coming on before our saloon guys go away and don't wanta race anymore.

PS: I don't mind helping you start this new Historic Production Sports Car class and im sure HRC and TACCOC will welcome it.

Dale M

[nzeder]

Thanks for clearing that up and I understand your point you are doing a good thing with HMC and V8 muscle cars have always been a popular car in Australia and NZ. The production based racing I always think of is in EU and Japan/Asia. Given I was living in Asia as a young child in the early 70's most of the cars I grew up with were Japanese or English/Euro. Australian or American cars where just not around in the numbers when I was young in Asia.

So my era is different (a 70's born gen xer) and I guess that is why 70's cars are my thing and under 3l given the 70's fuel crisis etc

[Kiwiboss]

Thanks for clearing that up and I understand your point you are doing a good thing with HMC and V8 muscle cars have always been a popular car in Australia and NZ. The production based racing I always think of is in EU and Japan/Asia. Given I was living in Asia as a young child in the early 70's most of the cars I grew up with were Japanese or English/Euro. Australian or American cars where just not around in the numbers when I was young in Asia.

So my era is different (a 70's born gen xer) and I guess that is why 70's cars are my thing and under 3l given the 70's fuel crisis etc

Sure Mike we all grew up in different eras and this is what drives us to have different vehicles of interest, the most popular saloon racing was USA(off-course) England, South Africa(somewhat), Australian and NZ and that was about it although im sure some on here will state otherwise but im talking about the "main country's" that ran Saloon class's period, they/we all ran under FIA group 2 and 5 and even American Trans Am started out under FIA and then went onto there own thing(hence why there cars have removed bumpers, headlights, door glass, etc but must be refitted under HMC rules) and really the era HMC reflects is that 67 to 73/4 period but using T&C rules we allowed big bore saloons up to 12/77 and thats also why Escorts, early BMW's, Minis, Capris fit our HMC grid, it represents the era of our Motorsport history. Off-course the whole Japanese performance car thing really only got started in the early/mid 70's mainly for the American market and that's why you don't see much Japanese stuff in that early(67 to 72/3) period.Even in NZ it was end of that big banger/Sports Sedan era around 78 that Shell Sport became the class under MSNZ featuring many Japanese cars but still saloons and not 2 seater production Sports cars.

Currently with the "miss mash" of class's thought out the world countries like Australia, USA have cauterized there historic groups according to how they ran in the era, and/or outside that how the "Manufacturer" designated each vehicle if those vehicles didn't race in that country period, so it is general accepted that a 2 door 2 seater car is a Sports Car that is production based(even if the manufacture calls it a GT, early Porsche is one example) and a 2 and 4 door cars with 4 seats are a Saloon car production based and thats how most set up there class's(USA anyway) and that's why all must still have production manufactured body work and not what one may have been used in a given year in a particular country of origin, EG Japan or Asia for instances, but one can always go and race at historic events in Japan/Asian countries that accept their particular period race car class of there era(joking off-course).

Anyway thats just touching the surface and i could go on forever in finite detail but hopefully i've spelt out the general idea? and like i said at some smaller events these 2 groups will race together and at larger events race apart, not the end of the world and don't go of track with your build Mike, you're still doing it right.

PS: Bowell Nagaris were a Australian made production based Sports car(100 or more made to fit the criteria, Bowell made 600 i believe)that came fitted with engines from 186 Holdens to 351 Ford Clevelands and weighted about 900KG, ugly lookin think but someone originally wanted to build one for HMC hence why we now have an Eligibility list

Dale M

[nzeder]

Fair points. Me I like the grids of the period endurance series that is where 240z, TR4/5, Escorts RS1600, Alfas, Porsches, Mustangs, Camaros etc all racing at the same time ie Sebring, Daytona, Spa, Le Manns etc different classes but all running at the same time. Here is a link to the 1972 Sebring entry list.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...972-03-25.html

[Kiwiboss]

Fair points. Me I like the grids of the period endurance series that is where 240z, TR4/5, Escorts RS1600, Alfas, Porsches, Mustangs, Camaros etc all racing at the same time ie Sebring, Daytona, Spa, Le Manns etc different classes but all running at the same time. Here is a link to the 1972 Sebring entry list.

http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...972-03-25.html

And what a dream that would be Mike, for events like the Festival were its sprint racing EG: 8 to 12 laps were each historic class is broken down into its correct categories(as at Monterey, Goodwood, etc) having HMC(for over 3 saloons), Historic Saloon cars(U3L) Production Sports cars(O/U3L) racing individually as history dictates, and them from time to time all coming together for a Historic endurance event like they do at the Spa 6 hour meeting(even a 1 hour would be fun) BUT only historically correct cars allowed, now that really would be FUN.

Arrr old car Motorsport, don't yar just luv it,

Nittey Nite

Dale M

[Steve Holmes]

Mike, you're a classic case of the right guy with the wrong car. By that I mean, you understand historic car racing, building a period correct car, and going historic racing for all the right reasons. Unfortunately, you're in love with a model of car that is a production sports car, in a country that has very little motorsport history for such cars, and as such, doesn't yet have the drive needed to create a dedicated class for such cars. Unfortunately for you, NZ is very much sedan racing lop-sided.

Dale is correct. HMC and the U3 saloon groups are for sedan cars, and not production sports cars. The reason for this is these groups have been created to replicate history. Back in period, saloon cars raced against saloon cars. And production sports cars raced against production sports cars. And the two rarely ever came together.

You are correct in that at some events the two did race on the same track at the same time. Daytona 24 Hours, Sebring 12 Hours, and Le Mans are classic examples. But in historic racing events around the world, generally the two groups are separated, because thats how they raced in period.

You're a classic Datsun guy. As you know, Datsun were trying to establish themselves in the US market in the late 1960s and early '70s, and they used motorsport to help achieve this. They contracted Pete Brock's BRE group to race cars in both sedan racing and production sports car racing. They ran Datsun 510s in the SCCA Trans-Am sedan racing 2.5 litre class, and Datsun 240Zs in B and C/Production sports car racing. But the 240zs weren't allowed to race with the Trans-Am cars, because they were a sports car.

In the US and Australia, and even in NZ, Porsche 911s were briefly considered sedan cars, and were allowed to race with the sedans. But even this was borderline, and the Porsches were kicked out of the Trans-Am after 1969, and the Australian Touring Car Championship after 1971. In NZ, a Porsche raced in the 1972 NZ Saloon Car Championship in 1972, but was thus sent away following that season, and was consistently protested by the other teams throughout. A Porsche also raced for a season in the Castrol GTX production series, but likewise was eventually banned. Essentially, the 911 was considered a production sports car, but their brief inclusion in sedan racing in period means they're often accepted into historic sedan grids today. But this was the exception, rather than the rule. Generally, sedans and sports cars had their own separate races and championships.

I could be wrong about this, but its my understanding its the cabin size that dictates whether its considered a sedan or sports car?

At the Australian Muscle Car Masters in a couple of weeks, CAMS Historic Group S will be competing. This is a dedicated class for production sports cars, and combines everything from 240Zs, to Shelby Cobras, Corvettes, Lotus Elans, MGs, De Tomaso Panteras, etc, that, in period, would have raced together. But Group S runs separately from Group Na/Nb/Nc Historic Touring Cars. Historic racing is about replicating history. It sucks, and it would be great to find a solution, but you can't change history unfortunately.

If you allow a 240Z to run with the saloons, you also have to allow Corvettes, TVR Griffiths, and other potentially very fast production sports cars as well, and this will only drive away the saloon car people and spread the field out. Its not period correct, and would cause more problems than it would solve.

An interesting side-note regarding this. We have one guy joining HMC/Under 3, who is a Nissan 300Z nut. He owns a collection of these cars, and has spent plenty of dosh on them. But he also really likes the idea of racing a period correct car, with like-minded enthusiasts. So he bought himself a Datsun 240K, a rare early Japanese sedan that is eligible to run, raced in period, and will be period correct. Food for thought?

Otherwise, wouldn't it be great to see a group established for period correct production sports cars. Now thats something that really has some potential.

[nzeder]

So the question would be how about the 260z 2+2 these are a 4 seater with more passenger space unlike a rx7 or 911. One even appeared on the grid of one of the James Hardy 500 (or was it 1000 by then) in 1976 if I recall.

The ideal Nissan to race is the old Carlos Neate Nissan/Prince Skyline GTB as it was a sedan/saloon and raced here in NZ in period but it now is with a collector in Australia who does not race it....shame....

I personal don't buy in the 240z/260z as a sports car - GT car yes, sport car no. I say this due to the way the FIA classify cars under the rules of the day ie read the Appendix J for a period a 240z/260z raced in ie 1975 rules for Appendix J. A Datsun Zed car fits into the GT classes. Even the highly modified Group 4 240z/260z/280z raced under GTS in FIA, JAF (Japan's rep for FIA) or IMSA GTU. Sure some of the grid has "Sports Cars" as the FIA classified them - but I dislike a zed getting called a "Sports Car" as under FIA they are completely different cars/performance/cost. But that is just semantics to some no doubt - when I think I sports cars I think of Le Manns specials or cars with no roof's aka British Sports Cars.

Also see this a reference (not that wiki can be trusted all the time)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer
Notice the Nissan Zcar is listed as such a car.

If I could purchase my old 160jsss back or import a correct 510 or better yet a 260z 2+2 and swap stuff over has the bonus of 6" more wheelbase and 2" more room in the rear for 9" rims with out mods.

However that is if I want to run in a saloon based grid. If I was to look at saloon then I would consider other Nissan L6 powered cars - like an early Skyline - saloon car, which as you have pointed out Steve one of the models was marketed locally as a Datsun 240K factory fitted with the same L24 engine (slightly de-tuned version) as fitted to the Datsun 240z.

My only concern with choosing such a car is this part of the T&C rules (I almost purchase that car you talk of too many years ago but pulled out of the trademe auction letting it go to a fellow zed club member, and then got the 160j sss I talked about before)

3.6 Engine (1) Cylinder head(s) and block may be changed to one of the
same make and model range and must be visually
standard and be of standard material.

It does depend on how this rule is interpreted - if talking the car there could be issues as a Datsun 240k chassis unlike the 240z chassis was never factory fitted with a L28. So in theory it could not have one fitted as the L24 cc is 2393cc + 15% as allowed by T&C put it just under the stock L28 size at 2751cc vs 2753cc (2cc hardly worth pushing really given L24 engines are hard to come by these days but L28 are more common)

However if that rule is interpreted as just the engine then. L24 - became the L26 which in turn the L28 and they are all made from the same standard material and from the same make and model range aka the Nissan L6 range of engines.

So how does one interpret this rule? This could mean a fan of the Nissan L6 engines could ran a number of Nissan Saloon's for such a grid if one was to feel so inclined.

I know this meant to be my build thread but could I get answers to these questions.

1. Is a Datsun 260z 2+2 classed as a Saloon (as much passenger room if not more than other period saloon aka Escorts) I believe it should be as they were fia approved for group 1 aka same a escorts, capri ie a saloon.

2. Does the T&C engine rule apply to the engine made/model or car made/model range - of cause the cars age must reflect the engine age if later ie L24 = 1969, L28 = 1975 so any Datsun/Nissan fitted with an L28 needs to be aged as a 1975 cars (when the L28 was first FIA approved)

[nzeder]

All of this does not change my mind on the fully caged car. It will be finished to T&C and I will run in ERC.

The flared car I will just finish it as intended have it mainly as a road car but I might see if it could pass as a replica Group 4 car under Schedule K

If I wanted to run in a HMC or the supporting U3L class I will just have to built a car to fit. Aka saloon - but would be good to have my 2 questions above answered - or clear up the interpretation of the engine rule.

[Racer Rog]

Just carry on the way you are Mike, and come and race in the south Island, we will place you in a field of like cars, and I like the attion to the detail you are carrying out, I just wish more would do their home work in the same manner.
Roger

[Bryan]

So the question would be how about the 260z 2+2 these are a 4 seater with more passenger space unlike a rx7 or 911.

1. Is a Datsun 260z 2+2 classed as a Saloon (as much passenger room if not more than other period saloon aka Escorts) I believe it should be as they were fia approved for group 1 aka same a escorts, capri ie a saloon.

The FIA Apendix J for 1972 (on the FIA website) is quite clear - a touring car had at least 4 seats, a GT car had at least 2 seats. Hence why Porsche could win the European Touring Car Championship with the 911. imho a 260Z +2 could potentially run in the HMC U3l class. It's interesting that sports cars like the 240Z, Lancia Stratos and Renault Alpine could run in international rallies.

I, for one, look forward to seeing you run in what ever class will let you in.

[928]

if you got the relevant fia book with the seat measurements in and took the dimensions of a 4 seat 911 at the time the 911 did comply
the fia then changed the regs

[John McKechnie]

if you got the relevant fia book with the seat measurements in and took the dimensions of a 4 seat 911 at the time the 911 did comply
the fia then changed the regs

The person making the decision probably decided to try the back seats and found they were just like the alleged back seats in XK 140 and XK150 Jags.

[ERC]

if you got the relevant fia book with the seat measurements in and took the dimensions of a 4 seat 911 at the time the 911 did comply. The FIA then changed the regs.

As they do!

Being pragmatiic (as always...) there are varied opinions on this and quite frankly, much of it is 'bs' because life is full not just black and white, but also grey, especially if you take away self interest.

So you have an MGB sports - two doors and maybe a bench behind for a couple of tiny kids or legless dwarfs. Put a bolt on roof on it and it is still a sports car. However, a fixed roof and tailgate and it is a GT. They raced together in period and always have.
Stick the same engine and running gear into a full 4 seat Morris Marina with a sloping rear and what is it? Never a true GT in a million years nor a sports car, even with two doors.

BUT, does it really matter? We already have too many small classes without having an 'exclusion' philosophy.

Does a Morris Marina TC run happily against two door, 4/5 seat Falcons GTs, or even 240/260Zs? I think not.

Mike, we welcome your car and others deemed on the fringe, because in broad terms, it fits and we don't care a stuff if others want to nit pick over minor details, as when the flag drops, the b/s stops - especially so in handicaps. Historically 100% correct is fine - just as long as all the numbers stack up.

Race for fun as we (NZ), unlike the UK, can't ever field a full field of MGBs, let alone E Type Jaguars or GT 40's - or even Austin A35s built to a formula - at $70,000 a pop! (I think that was the figure quoted but I stand corrected.)

The stock of older vehicles is disappearing fast and will continue to do so. Every year it will get harder and harder to put together an interesting car, so if we are not careful, we will soon be swamped by a few identical makes/models where parts and spares are plentiful.