MSNZ Certificate of Description

[nzeder]

With my car I first thought as ERC group does not require a CoD I thought I would not bother getting one. However as the car is getting closer to completion I will be applying for a CoD + with more period documentation that I have sourced I am leaning more K spec.

The rules do change I have seen that from my Datsun 240z back in the mid 90's to now. Rules even change during builds/rebuilds (no need to go into that).

Alan you raise points that as a competitor I did not even consider - the insurance/indemnity that might apply when racing a car and if a car is outside of the rules how that might effect these under a MSNZ permit.

Ray I like your suggestion of a tiered system as one system does not fit all it seems hence this thread on the CoD's. We need a system that can ID those genuine historic vehicles. We need a system that shows a car is built to x spec/rules ie K based - standard production cars can fit under K as usually those cars would have been FIA approved under group 1 or 3 (not sure on the later FIA rules I have only focused on the era/period I am interested in 70's stuff) some cars don't fit aka Marcos as they were not homologated in period - so how does one fit those in a CoD.

#3 in ERC post is an interesting one and how the rules in T&C have changed over the years might be to blame for some of the cars that are outside of the rules today - however I guess if a car was built to T&C in 1993 and if it a CoD for this build and not modified outside of the 1993 rules then there would not be an issue. However as the rules have changed a car built to 1993 rules might well be outside of the T&C rules today in 2014.

The CoD process does require proof and in my line of work we use a saying

"Trust but verify"

So you trust the info you have been given after it has been verified - if no info is given or it can't be verified as true then you go back to the lowest common denominator ie standard car spec.

Having not applied for a CoD in the past is their a process where the applicant might be requested for more info/proof before the CoD is granted or does it just come back as non compliant A and just a B?

[Bryan]

2) Similar to the above but for a car built to Appendix K or Schedule K, in other words, a Cortina converted to a Lotus Cortina or a Mini converted to a Mini Cooper S or a faithful replica or recreation of a specific historic car that no longer exists.

3) A classic car that is outside the above criteria but has been modified with period modifications that presumably conforms to the T & C rules of the time. This is a dodgy one as the T & C Rules are not universally accepted and is still a sticking point. The application forms and documentation need to cover Alan's point as mentioned above and as raised at previous meetings, that a car may be progressively modified even within the rules and should not need to keep being resubmitted.

4) A totally standard production car running the original engine, gearbox, wheels, brakes, interior, but maybe with the replacement of the driver's seat, seat belts and maybe basic roll over protection that does not mean the headlining is removed. All this level needs is a simple one page declaration with just 4 pics. a) front three-quarter b) Rear three-quarter, c) engine/under bonnet d) interior. Countersigned by either a scrutineer, marque expert or series co-ordinator. Simple and cheap and would probably get a lot more people on board and into the system.

Ray, I've been out of the sport for quite a while, and my experience was mainly as a club racer in the '80s, so predating CoDs.

With respect to the tiers in your suggestion (which I like), how should a "replica" be treated where the builder has used parts and modifications that are period, but weren't provably used all together in period. The examples I have in mind are where companies assembled specific cars in different markets, using locally manufactured components in some markets, but also had available "factory" performance upgrades in the "home" market. A few examples I can think of :-
- Escort RS2000 had a Borg Warner axle in Australia and South Africa, and a LSD in South Africa (rare, so not the best example)
- FIAT 125 and 131 (NZ and SA unique versions, plus FIA homolated Euro versions)
- Morris Marina - Australia had OHC engines and bigger brakes, but UK had BL Special Tuning upgrades (incl. 4 link rear and turret kit), FIA homologated for 1300 or 1800 OHV. BL ST also made a pair of V8s for the World Cup marathon.

So, the restored Heatway Marina (Jim Richards) would be a Tier 1 Historic. A "faithful" replica of the V8 World Cup Marina would be Tier 2. A "best of breed" Marina, using the Aussie front end/brakes and reproduction ST mods, would be Tier 3. A standard TC Coupe in Tier 4.

Would that be how you see the tier structure working?

[ERC]

Yes Bryan, that is a pretty good take on it.

Not being a Capri specialist but looking at the differences between the various cars now purporting to be Perana's, I do wonder if some have ever done any research! Having said that, if they are basically in road trim as opposed to race trim and are road legal like Neil Tolich's car, I'm the last person to nit-pick. I they are thinly disguised racers, then now that we have an Historic Sports Sedan's grid, if they choose to run there and are accepted, then there will be no argument from me as it will boost that grid.

In my 4 classifications, I deliberately left out cars with period engine transplants, whether they be Triumph Stags with Rover V8s, Morris Minors with Fiat Twin cams or Austin A40's powered by Ford engines. Assuming all engines are period engines, and the cars built without reference to a specific historic car (and ignoring my personal interest!), you can't under the current T & C regulations run such a car, but you can construct a single-seater out of periods parts.

As T & C doesn't cover such cars, then no CoD is possible which effectively renders them non-classic, even though they may contain more genuine period parts than many of those allowed to race.

[nzeder]

Valid point Ray - someone could not have a car with a CoD if they chose to build a Vauxhall Viva with a BDA or even a Ford V8 all 1970's period correct but as no one did it - it can't be done today if the rules deny it. However like you say under Schedule CR which is for single seater/open wheeled cars you can use a period chassis and say a Nissan L18 engine if all 1970's tech - as a retrospective build - it could have happened so it can today.

Production based cars/classes have not space for that kind of carry on it seems.

[Carlo]

http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/d...Sch%20RH_1.pdf

Has anyone looked at the revised Schedule RH for Historic Rally Cars, might just fit the bill for a number of other classes / vehicle types. Maybe it is just the dates on this that need to be adjusted for some race categories. No sense re-inventing the wheel if you don't need to

[RogerH]

….However like you say under Schedule CR which is for single seater/open wheeled cars you can use a period chassis and say a Nissan L18 engine if all 1970's tech - as a retrospective build - it could have happened so it can today.…….

Sch CR relates to either a car that replicates a car that participated in period (a replica) or is similar to a car that competed in period (a retrospective special). I would think that a Sch CR single seater would find it very difficult to find a MSNZ historic/classic grid to join in the North Island. In the South Island things are a bit different and quite a few single seaters competing in historic/classic events are CR cars.
In the end it comes down to event organisers catering for these cars - if they don't, then the cars become effectively redundant with diminished value.