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Thread: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

  1. #1

    New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

    When the New Zealand Historic Muscle Cars group was formed about 4-5 years ago, it was done with with the intention to build and race period correct big-bore sedans, over 3,000cc in capacity, with a cut-off date of December 31, 1977.

    In order for HMC to work, the rules couldn't be compromised. Every car on the grid had to be 100% compliant. But in order to achieve this, and be able to offer event promoters a full grid and good quality racing, HMC needed to work in conjunction with another historic racing group that bore some relation to what it was doing and where it was going. This group was a loosely formed pre-1977 combination of saloon cars and production sports cars, built to MSNZ Classic and Historic T&C or Schedule K rules.

    The partnership worked well, and the racing was great, with the big-banger V8s and the nimble small capacity machines recreating the battles of old, that took place in the NZ Saloon Car Championship in the late 1960s through early 1970s.

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    However, as HMC grew, so the under 3,000cc group remained largely static, with nobody stepping up to take control, and push it forward. To that end, the directors of HMC made the decision to take the under 3,000cc group under the HMC wing, and run it just as HMC is being run, in an effort to protect owners of genuine legal T&C and Schedule K cars, encourage others to build cars, or to bring these cars out of sheds and race them once more against like-minded owners with cars complying to the same regulations.

    Firstly, some minor tweaks were made:

    Only saloon cars are eligible (no sports cars)
    An eligibility list is currently being compiled of cars that may race
    A small selection of over 3,000cc cars that don't fit the HMC appearance will be accepted

    This group has been named 'Historic Saloon Cars'. HSC and HMC will race together at proper historic racing events, but will be split at events where the grids are too big. It has been said the most exciting HMC races are those combined with the small capacity cars, so having HMC and HSC all run under the one umbrella, should guarantee some fantastic racing, lost of fun, and, hopefully, good steady growth in the area of period correct pre-1977 saloon car racing.

    If you own, are building, or contemplating building either a historic Pre1977 T&C or Schedule K saloon, and would like to get involved with Historic Saloon Cars, please contact Bruce Dyer at: bruced105@gmail.com or Dale Mathers at: dmathers@xtra.co.nz

    This thread is dedicated to all matters relating to Historic Saloon Cars.

  2. #2
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    Should be a great thread Steve. I see a glimpse of the Amco Mini in its second season colours, behind the Imp.

  3. #3
    Thanks Gerald, great to see your post! This class was created for you and the AMCO Mini.

  4. #4
    Semi-Pro Racer kiwi285's Avatar
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    Really glad to see this happening and that the under 3 litre class will be able to compete on a level playing field too. Looking forward to seeing these cars out on track again.

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    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    Why only 'small selection' of over 3000cc cars? I'm sorry, but the logic of that totally escapes me. What is the criteria for that 'small selection'?

  6. #6
    A lot of over 3 litre cars come under the HMC guise Ray. But there are some, such as MkI and MkII Jaguar, for example, that have a racing history but would look out of place in a muscle car grid, and whose owners would likely prefer to not be racing in a muscle car grid. Therefore, cars like these that are over 3 litre but not HMC, would be added to the eligibility list for HSC.

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    Could I ask who is compiling this eligibility list........for all the cars......up to, and over 3 litres. I see it is being compiled as we speak! Is a saloon car a 4/5 seater, or are 2 seaters with occasional back seats included. They obviously have to have a permanent roof, but there are plenty of 'sports cars' with non detatchable roofs......mmmmmmm......could be interesting.

  8. #8
    Hi Gerald, Bruce Dyer and Bill Ritchie have taken on the role of doing this. Both are keen owners/racers of under 3 litre saloon cars. The list is not set in stone, just as the HMC eligibility list is not. New cars can be added at any time if there is something an owner wishes to race. And yes, 4/5 seater cars, with emphasis on makes/models with a period competition history. Essentially, nothing will change much at all to what has already been taking place with this group, its really just about tying up loose ends.

  9. #9
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    So if it is for pre 1977 correct cars, there will be no Datsuns, Mazdas, Toyotas, Hondas, Izuzus, etc etc. I dont think there were any of these racing in NZ pre 1977. So if there werent any racing, you cant construct a period correct car now, as there is/was nothing to base your construction on.....yes, no ????????? Sorry, but we need to get a few things sorted before lists are drawn up, to forestall endless arguments.I am very nervous of one or two people playing Big Daddy, waving the big stick and deciding exactly who,and what is going to compete.....some ideas from the wider competitor base might be useful. In other words lets have a list drawn up then ask for additions or subtractions. Is not quite as easy as HMC which has a fairly narrow band of eligible cars.
    Last edited by AMCO72; 08-31-2015 at 06:35 AM.

  10. #10
    Its viewed on more of a worldwide basis than just an NZ basis, so yes, Japanese cars are indeed eligible. The reason for the eligibility list is not so much about playing God, but more so to protect the investments of those taking part. And, its not set in stone. Its easier to deal with a set of fundamentals when you know what you're playing with, than trying to plan for the unkown.

    And the two people who've drawn up the list didn't do so with the intent to control who plays and who doesn't. They've merely done it because they have a vast knowledge of the various makes and models of smaller capacity cars that raced in period than the HMC directors.

    It is a big list, and its unlikely there will be any surprises.

  11. #11
    Semi-Pro Racer Spgeti's Avatar
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    Hi Gerald, thanks for your input and this is what the HSC Thread is about. Saloon cars produced prior to December 1977 will be considered and yes that includes Datsun's, Toyota's, Mazda's, Honda's and Izuzu's etc even if they did not race in NZ but else where in the world. No two people are going to wave the big stick and no the list is not being constructed as we speak. I took this on to help Dale and Steve because as a motorsport historic group we need to move forward and tidy this up or like the Pre 61 group that Oldfart is working on the longer we leave it the harder it gets and the cars will disappear.
    I have been working on this since February this year and with Bill's help along with Dale and Steve we have an open mind. It is not an easy list to compile but we do have an open door view but will be subject to review and what was homaglated as a saloon will stand and what is a sports car will be a sports car. HMC is also not so simple. Cheers, Bruce

  12. #12
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    OK all good. Sorry to ask so many questions, but it might stir others into action.

    The next thing is tyres ????????? Period correct, these cars were on slicks. Certainly all the 70's cars were. What does the 'brains trust' think on that subject. We all have to buy tyres of some sort, so cost differences dont really come into it. I presume the cars will not need to be WOF standard. Cars like the Amco Mini ran on them exclusively for 2 seasons. Collingwood was on such a tight budget that he only had one set for the whole season. He was lucky that the 970 was fairly easy on rubber. Tyre selection for 10 inch Mini rims is very limited, unlike the larger wheel sizes, where there is a much bigger demand.

  13. #13
    Semi-Pro Racer Spgeti's Avatar
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    That's all ok Gerald.

    That is a very good question and needs further discussion as the AMCO Mini is an historic car that ran in period. I would like to leave this open at this stage for the others to comment on. I respect the problem with the 10 inch rim as my Elf is the same and while not a period car like your did run on slicks in the late 80's.

    Cheers,

  14. #14
    Nothing needs to be changed, just apply the current MSNZ tyre regulations under Appendix Six, Historic Competition, Section Five - Schedule T&C 3.13 Tires.

    Only tyres suitable for legal road use in New Zealand, or period and
    tread pattern correct, bias cross-ply tyres (refer note) may be used.
    (ie. road tyres having 1.5mm minimum tread depth across 75% of
    the width of the tyre and around the entire circumference). Aspect
    ratio is restricted to 50% minimum. The use of semi-slick tyres with
    only radial grooves is specifically prohibited.
    Note: An example is Dunlop CR65 brand tyres


    http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/d...%20T%26C_0.pdf

    Dale M

  15. #15
    Thanks to Bruce and Bill for taking up the challenge, many of us believe this is the only direction "Historic" motorsport should be heading.

    Although there is potentially a lot more diversity of cars, sizes and allowable modification levels available in this class compared to say HMC type cars, ruling on what is acceptable or not is actually relatively simple. Comply with either (and for my money, preferably) Schedule K where only Period Homologated modifications specific to that Make, Model and Year of car are allowed or T&C which is a more generic set of regulations covering a range of cars. Either route produces a similar performance level and period correctness.

    The definition of what constitutes a saloon is also well documented and although Datsun 240/260 owners might think it is unfair, in period these restrictions/ definitions applied so there should be no surprises.

    Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.

  16. #16
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Wood View Post
    Unfortunately it appears the tyre regulations are either unclear or have been applied inconsistently, sometimes allowing actual cars which ran in period eg Amco Mini, Haliday Escort, a dispensation to run period slicks. Regardless of what has happened in the past someone will have to make that decision and apply the same tyre regulation to all competitors. Dale may not agree but a slick option to all HRC cars would equalize the top HRC lap times with the top HMC lap times, now that would make a good spectacle.
    Totally agree. It isn't a level playing field anyway, so smaller cars that were run on period slicks makes a lot of sense. We had trouble with JayDees Halliday Escort getting appropriate tyres, so we gave a dispensation to allow it to run on slicks, as it is a period historic car and not a modern build where the owner is seeking to maximise performance. Now it has a more suitable class in which to run, 'our problem' goes away - which is what we usually envisage when we make a pragmatic ruling.

    However, JayDee is always welcome, regardless!

  17. #17
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    Thank you Howard and ERC........my thoughts as well. I have crossed swords with a number of people on this matter of tyres.....as Dale will confirm. HSC is a different class altogether, and I HOPE that the co-ordinators will give this question due consideration. ......
    Last edited by AMCO72; 09-01-2015 at 08:17 PM.

  18. #18

    1970s replica

    Quote Originally Posted by AMCO72 View Post
    Thank you Howard and ERC........my thoughts as well. I have crossed swords with a number of people on this matter of tyres.....as Dale will confirm. HSC is a different class altogether, and I HOPE that the co-ordinators will this question due consideration. ......and I can promise I am not going to 'go away' !!!!!!!!
    would a replica of a 1970 British race mini built from a 1980 mini body shell be allowed to race in the under 3000cc class on slicks ,car was built in 1998 and runs as a miglia class in the super mini challenge

  19. #19
    Semi-Pro Racer Spgeti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper64 View Post
    would a replica of a 1970 British race mini built from a 1980 mini body shell be allowed to race in the under 3000cc class on slicks ,car was built in 1998 and runs as a miglia class in the super mini challenge
    Cooper64, as post #1, please send myself or Dale an email at the above addresses. All cars must have a COD as per Schedule K or T&C.

    bruced105@gmail.com

    Cheers, Bruce
    Last edited by Spgeti; 09-01-2015 at 04:10 AM.

  20. #20
    Just a thought for those wiser than me.

    So what's available for the Production Grand Touring "GT" cars? Not the sports cars that keep being referred to, but the GT cars as defined by FIA or production class B/C for the Americans. The period correct 2 seater E Types, Corvettes, 240Z's, TR's etc.

    In a country where we have a limited pool of period correct cars I would have thought we would be encouraging as many of these to be out there as possible. Not forcing these ones to be moth balled in sheds.

    One could argue that these cars need their own grid. But that simply serves to dilute the grids of the classes that they could easily fit in (better fit than in a "sports car" grid).

    Would be a shame to see them go. But hey the cars the star right?
    Last edited by Limezed; 09-01-2015 at 10:07 AM.

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