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Thread: New Zealand Historic Saloon Cars Under HRC

  1. #121
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    What I meant Bruce was that the Alfa Trofeo members and many of those in the area, with a bit of rule tweaking, the T & C rules would cover almost all cars. As they stand now, as I said before, the devil is in the detail and that detail is what schedule K/Appendix K is for. Running a pure car to those rules few people will disagree with.

    You then have to ask what T & C is actually there for and when you go through the rules, line by line, word by word which we did some years ago, you see the anomalies, especially if you take a close look a car that most would accept, as being legitimate for this type of racing, but would not get a CoD.

    We have said it many, many times before, but race meeting organisers and series organisers are always free to TIGHTEN the overall rules if they so wish. We simply state that some form of roll protection is mandatory in the faster group, as full cages effectively turn a road car into a race car and can destroy the classic value. We also made harnesses mandatory but backed off with just an advisory on any form of neck restraint.

    Whilst the purists think that everything should be 100% pre 1977 - but choose to fit rev limiters and shift lights and run cars with heaps more horsepower than they ever had in period - they have no right to push people into getting an expensive piece of paper that proves absolutely nothing about the legitimacy of an engine's innards!

    Yes, we will always beg to differ on philosophy, but take the number of words pushing for CoDs over the last 20 years or so (TACCOC's meetings up until about three years ; the original Arrow Wheels Series; U3L saloons; HMC etc) and the fact that 2/3rds of racers at the average race meeting haven't bought into the system, is far more telling than the single race at the first meeting of the season, that accounts for 20% of the year's programme for some.

    As long as promoters put on well supported, financially viable meetings, then the whole T & C and CoD issue is a side show to appease a few well meaning and passionate purists, but it has yet to be proved that the system has been success, other than for those with genuine historic cars or those with a race history, needing a documented provenance for the future.

    As someone pointed out the other day, other than the engine builder, who really knows what is under the bonnet, how old it is and even what the cubic capacity is? If it is indeed chocolate fish racing...

    I'm sure many have gone through the 14 page CoD application and been unable to answer some of the required questions honestly.

    Arthur Vowles (previous co-ordinator) has for a long time championed changes to the system that have been totally ignored, especially for those in the early stages of racing a car that they may later develop. If the CoD has any validity at all, then those updates need documenting in a simplified and cost free format.

    Some items in the T & C rules are so petty as to be laughable and do not even reflect what actually happened in period.

    As just about all classes at local meetings are now 'Series Classes', then the real power is in "Series Rules", not T & C.

    Yes, I know I sound like a long playing record stuck in a groove, but whereas Schedule 'K' has some validity for many cars, certainly Appendix K doesn't cover some of the cars being raced today, because they weren't homologated at the time.

    I have given up debating the validity of T & C with the H & C Committee, but as long as the cars have somewhere to race amongst like runners or even those vastly different, and the drivers don't employ dodgem car tactics, all is sweet, north and south of the Bombays.

  2. #122
    Semi-Pro Racer Spgeti's Avatar
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    For myself Ray I am here to promote Historic Saloon Car racing using the MSNZ rules as per Appendix 6.
    I personally agree with these rules and I am not going to enter into a discussion regarding the validity of these rules on this thread.
    I have a job to do to which I believe is in the best benefit for those that want to be part of this.
    We are all entitled to our opinion and where we want to go with motorsport and I and some like myself want to go down this road and as Steve has stated before it will take time. Rome was not built in a day....
    I am not here to preach but to offer and assist those that want to race there Pre 78 Saloons in an Historic group.....and be part of Historic racing be it here or overseas.
    I have the deepest respect for what you and your predessors have done and also for the other like groups in the country, but it is not the direction I want to go.

    Cheers

  3. #123
    Bruce's (Spgeti) beautiful Alfa Guila, which has been built to T&C rules, and has a COD.

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  4. #124
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    Are bumpers optional extras on race cars? I thought T & C says 'fully trimmed'.

  5. #125
    Semi-Pro Racer Spgeti's Avatar
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    Hi Gerald, The car has an A pass COD and the 105's were raced in period without bumpers as Arthur has been to great lengths to validate. The car is fully upholstered inside and still runs the factory brake set up etc.
    I could say I was lucky.....

  6. #126
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    Thank you........just asking.......is a cracking looking machine. I had a 1750 GTV years ago. Actually had a choice of a 1750 or a 2000.....both at John Martin Motors in Hamilton. I picked the 1750 because I liked the instruments better......bigger dials, upside down needles......silly reason !!!
    Last edited by AMCO72; 09-21-2015 at 04:25 AM.

  7. #127
    Semi-Pro Racer Spgeti's Avatar
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    Thank you Gerald....built by Peter Beck in Palmerston North who fashioned it of his car that ran for years in the Le Mans racing at Puke and the Wellington Street Race .....even has the half cage out of it.
    I have had a lot of support from Alfa Romeo Owners Club over the years and in particular Arthur and Bill and the club down here in the sunny Manawatu...

    I can't wait to be part of the Festival.

    Cheers

    Bruce

  8. #128
    Luv the fuel filler, really looks the business, like the wide guzzling Ozzie beer cans !!!!!!!!!!
    Got a good Alfa joke to share with you Oct 3

  9. #129
    Semi-Pro Racer Spgeti's Avatar
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    Thanks John, actually a Cobra/Shelby replica from Speedway motors. Fashioned after the GTA and GTAm tanks. Tank uprated to a Berlina 55 litre and why .....because I like it !!
    Look forward to catch up John

  10. #130
    Semi-Pro Racer Spgeti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMCO72 View Post
    Thank you........just asking.......is a cracking looking machine. I had a 1750 GTV years ago. Actually had a choice of a 1750 or a 2000.....both at John Martin Motors in Hamilton. I picked the 1750 because I liked the instruments better......bigger dials, upside down needles......silly reason !!!
    Not silly Gerald...nice cars fullstop.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by AMCO72 View Post
    Thank you........just asking.......is a cracking looking machine. I had a 1750 GTV years ago. Actually had a choice of a 1750 or a 2000.....both at John Martin Motors in Hamilton. I picked the 1750 because I liked the instruments better......bigger dials, upside down needles......silly reason !!!
    Bloody hell Gerald, you seem to have owned at least one of everything over the years! I guess your total car ownership must be well into the hundreds? Are there any you wish you still had now?

  12. #132
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMCO72 View Post
    Are bumpers optional extras on race cars? I thought T & C says 'fully trimmed'.
    As per PM to Bruce! The T & C rules state full exterior trim - then add period modifications are allowed... Which is it? Personally, I like the look without bumpers, but the annual MG Whittakers Manfeild were always insistent that bumpers must be fitted.

    We had the same issue with a well known BMC car some years ago. MSNZ book said on one page, that heads and blocks must be of original material. Next page, period mods allowed which - equals a crossflow alloy head. The whole point about written rules is that they shouldn't contradict themselves.

    I note that the current Academy Austin A30/35 series in the UK allows fibreglass bumpers (and wings) as it recognises the scarcity of decent original trim and panels. If they can't find the bits for a Brit car in Britain, what chance do we have here? It isn't done for a performance advantage, it is often because the originals are pitted, bent and rusty. If they are immaculate, they stay under the bench. One of several areas where T & C doesn't reflect the reality of running an older car in what can be a 46 car grid and where sooner or later, panel damage is inevitable.

    This is why more and more people are opting to run more modern cars as trim, particularly original, not repo, should not be risked on the track. A Peugeot 205 or a BMW is a lot easier to keep looking smart than 40, 50, 60 year old cars, but what would you rather see racing?
    Last edited by ERC; 09-21-2015 at 07:18 AM.

  13. #133
    Another HSC racer. This is Bob Hyslop's fantastic little Mazda RX2, which sounds just as good as it looks. Bob himself has a long motorsport career, and impressively, has owned this car since 1974.

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  14. #134
    I note that the current Academy Austin A30/35 series in the UK allows fibreglass bumpers (and wings) as it recognises the scarcity of decent original trim and panels. If they can't find the bits for a Brit car in Britain, what chance do we have here? It isn't done for a performance advantage, it is often because the originals are pitted, bent and rusty. If they are immaculate, they stay under the bench. One of several areas where T & C doesn't reflect the reality of running an older car in what can be a 46 car grid and where sooner or later, panel damage is inevitable.
    Above pinched from Ray's post a few back. As I have spent some time talking with both Motobuild, who supply many of the bits for the Academy cars, and Julius Thurgood, the promoter, perhaps I can offer some insight. Julius "club" the Historic Racing Drivers Club (HRDC) which promotes these and others is not a club at all. It's a group owned by Julius, which buys track time from the circuits and promotes races. If you want to compete, you join the "club" and agree to play by his rules.
    He, much like Ray (ERC) is very pragmatic, the cars comply with his rules, and those necessary with the MSA, or you don't take part. I asked when I was with him if there are things which I could learn from, ie if he had it over again are there rules/guidelines which he would change. He gave that quite some thought before replying, that not really. Always someone will push the boundaries to go faster, and he has the mechanism to rein that in to keep the racing close, and if that means he may move the goalposts at the end of a season, so be it. One thing he did say is to include in the guidelines, that if you are going to explore something somewhat loophole like, then be prepared to change it back. In other words, never go so far that you can not revert to nearer standard.
    In regards the Academy cars, they are in effect a "one design classic race car", sealed engine, gearbox, specified cage, suspension package etc. If you don't want to buy in to that, just don't bother to become part of it. It must be working as the group only started last winter (UK) and they now have , ironically, 35 A35s on the books. I can't see why they would need anything like the respective schedules. Bumpers Ray, I guess there are not a lot of good straight ones around so the f'glass is a good option. Given UK glass they are pretty heavy, although certainly lighter than the chrome versions. These cars are all presented to a fabulous standard, as good as any of the Historic Muscle cars I have seen.
    Back on thread, I wonder why some of the Historic Saloons at Icebreaker (how many?) were so denigrating about other classes small fields

  15. #135
    Re the bumpers, I think with the huge worldwide restoration market, bumpers are now being reproduced for many popular makes and models. Some of the rarer low volume vehicles will always be a problem. But for high volume cars where there is a large worldwide restoration market, repro bumpers are often cheaper than sourcing originals. They aren't always of the same quality, but this is less of an issue with a race car than a restored road car. This is certainly the case with some of the early American Mustangs and Camaros etc.

    In the case of Austin A30/35, repro bumpers are available, but they're also expensive, which is, I'm guessing, why fibreglass replacements are allowed instead: http://www.bumperworld.eu/bumpers/austin-/s/744

  16. #136
    When I was running pre-65 in 1992 we were told no fibreglass guards as having these cheap, easy replaceable items would make everyone careless about car contact

  17. #137
    Semi-Pro Racer Spgeti's Avatar
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    Companies such as Classic Alfa in the UK have a wide range of bumpers and accessories for many models of Alfas.
    A front bumper set including over riders is UK 395 Pound for my model Alfa.
    Mini bumpers are also available from Mini Spares in the UK.

  18. #138
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    As I said earlier, repro stuff is available - for popular or relatively high volume cars, but I think we proved at the 2015 Festival, that with 1980 laps completed, just one car to car ding (after a spin) and one driver put himself in the wall, that fibreglass panels or bumpers aren't really an issue.

    Even fibreglass items aren't exactly cheap and again, not readily available for low volume cars. Bruce's quote above merely confirms it. Personally, I'd rather see someone spend that amount of money on a modern, proven neck restraint and run fibreglass bumpers - or no bumpers at all.

    Set of front quarterlight rubbers for the Magnette, $300 NZ plus shipping. Rechromed (exchange) radiator grille $800 plus shipping both ways. Exchange front bumper (in good condition) plus shipping both ways $400. For the Magnette, I've made my own fibreglass bumpers and they will be chrome vinyl wrapped and therefore will look original. Why is that an issue with T & C?

    Others I know have painted fibreglass bumpers, but at the end of the day, the more rules and restrictions you put in, the fewer drivers you will attract. Hence the pragmatism.

    As Rhys says, we can tighten the rules at any time if we so desire, but the time to do that is when grids are overfull. We have made it quite clear to drivers with cars that are marginal, either by virtue of fixtures and fittings or even age, that they will be the first to be dropped off if we are over subscribed.

    I totally dispute that drivers who think that running with non-compliant cars raises the risk of panel damage, and would happily point them to the Festival, where compliant cars were in fact damaged in other groups. That is the risk of racing. I'm sure I am not the only one who has suffered damage, some of it very extensive, through a 'racing incident', no fault of mine. It is up to series or class organisers to enforce good driving standards and rule on guilty drivers as appropriate. We have had to do it and over the last 20 years, just 2 drivers have been excluded; 1 had a temporary suspension; about 5 or 6 have had warnings - usually for turning in on an overtaking driver. Overall, not exactly a bad score for generally decent grids and two race groups.

    Whilst I admire the purity or adherence to a published set of rules, or an era, it is always going to be a numbers game and we know already that costs are going to escalate locally and only those clubs owning their own track, as opposed to hiring them, will be able to keep entry fees to a reasonable level, so even regular drivers will be paying more. That in itself is going to reduce entries, particularly amongst the oldies or retirees who are already finding it tough.

    That raises another issue. Why can't over 65's get a cheaper race licence? I'm hedging on not renewing after this season. Financially forced retirement is now definitely on the cards. Maybe one of the clubs could put a remit in to conference?
    Last edited by ERC; 09-22-2015 at 12:52 AM.

  19. #139
    Ray- is it possible to put a simple memory up without it being turned into a points scoring effort for the wheel barrow you are pushing ?

  20. #140
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    Fair point John. But I want classes to succeed...

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