Here's a photo of the 5.0L Chev in the "Simpson" Eagle. Lucas/MacKay injection, SuperMagII magneto. No modern electronics or rev limiters. 542hp. 8000rpm. Bob builds vintage race engines of all types with a specialty in Cosworth.
Here's a photo of the 5.0L Chev in the "Simpson" Eagle. Lucas/MacKay injection, SuperMagII magneto. No modern electronics or rev limiters. 542hp. 8000rpm. Bob builds vintage race engines of all types with a specialty in Cosworth.
Wow, small world! Thanks for that info on Bob Slade.
You've certainly done a magnificent job with that car. You must be very proud.
Re Garner, did he have any motorsport involvement after leaving AIR in '69? I know he ran Corvettes at one stage, but I'm unsure if this was with AIR, or after he left? He ran a pair of Lola T70 MkIIIs in early '68 too.
Interesting he was connected with AMC. Penske later had an AMC contract, and among their projects, tried F5000 with an AMC motor in the back of a Lola T330. Whether due to Donohue being such a perfectionist, that car never performed to his liking, and after trying everything he could think of to make the car handle, eventually conceded that the extra weight of the AMC motor did have an affect on handling.
I am surprised to an extent that no one has mentioned Allen Brown's excellent site -- OldRacingCars.Com -- during what little discussion there has been on this thread. Lots and lots of "Eye Candy" but little substance for the most part.
Thought it interesting that a discussion of F5000 began with a few photographs of a USAC Championship car, an Eagle, rather than a pukka F5000 machine.
Liked the notion of F/A or F5000 from the beginning, but its last season or so in the US was a bit painful to watch at times. The US series was as much of a victim of the declining fortunes of the SCCA as the original Can-Am and Trans-Am were, the club's governors wanting to return to the nostalgic past when it was an amateur organization and run like a gent's club. Its attempt to revive "Can-Am" by putting bodies on the F5000 cars was an interesting one, but missed the mark by a wide margin. The IMSA Camel GT series was now the game in town and the SCCA simply could not find a means to truly compete with it. The departure of USAC from F5000 after the 1976 season was another factor, with USAC having its own problems to deal with at the moment.
Just an observation.
Pity the poor Historian! – Denis Jenkinson
Research is endlessly seductive; writing is hard work. – Barbara Tuchman
There are several web-sites about James Garners racing involvement. http://www.airl88.com/ details the Gulstrand Corvettes. Also, after his partnership in AIR Garner ran Scooter Patrick in Formula/A - 5000. He made a movie about their season The Racing Scene, youtub short http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtOgml5O5SM I believe he also ran a T70 for Dave Jordan (Eagle 512 driver),Lothar Motschenbacher, Ed Leslie, and Scooter Patrick at Daytona. As for the AMC motor, I have the build sheet for the original that went into the AIR Eagle. It was an AMC block with Chevy internals.
[QUOTE=HDonaldCapps;6345]I am surprised to an extent that no one has mentioned Allen Brown's excellent site --
Thought it interesting that a discussion of F5000 began with a few photographs of a USAC Championship car, an Eagle, rather than a pukka F5000 machine.
Liked the notion of F/A or F5000 from the beginning, but its last season or so in the US was a bit painful to watch at times. "
Donald,
In answer to your pertinent questions:
Allen Brown's oldracingcars.com has certainly been mentioned in the Formula Pacific thread and is an amazing resource.
In NZ, Formula A/ 5000 began as a one off promotion by the somewhat anti establishment promoters of Bay Park and the earliest cobbled together fields here (and thus photographs) were an oddball mix of machines and it was only when F5000 became the official premier single seater class here that the field consisted of pukka F5000 cars, albeit with the occasional F2 car thrown in.
I suspect the demise of F5000 here and elsewhere had much to do with a fundamental flaw in the "stock block" concept, as used at the time in both F5000 and F2. Introduced to keep costs under control, as engine builders found ways to extract more and more power from the stock block, perversely, costs spiraled out of control as engine reliabilty declined. In European F2, the rules were changed to allow pure race engines, thus as an example, Brian Hart could build the Hart 420R using all the leasons learnt from the ubiquitous Ford block with none of its limitations.
In NZ a combination of reduced fields due to rising engine costs with even more depleted numbers of finishers due to unreliability lead to the final series being farcical.
Last edited by Howard Wood; 10-21-2011 at 11:01 PM.
Further to Howards excellent post above, I wrote a very brief history on the class back when this forum was still new, in May, although that thread dried up pretty quickly: http://www.theroaringseason.com/show...mula-5000-CarsOriginally Posted by HDonaldCapps
There seem to be quite a few theories as to why the formula failed, cost being the most obvious which was probably more the case in NZ. But I wonder also if the SCCA switching to the centre-seat Can-Am formula also had a negative flow-on effect to other countries as it dried up the chassis supply. Afterall, this formula was almost exclusively based on teams being able to purchase an engine and chassis and go racing, as most didn't have the capacity to build their own chassis'. It survived on the ability to assemble a field made up of customer cars.
Thanks for that, some great links and excellent reading material there.
Here is that Youtube link you supplied:
Didn't the Can-Am switch come after F5000 died in NZ? In any case, it was English builders who supplied most of the F5000 chassis
I think the formula died in NZ largely because its lifespan coincided with enormous growth in saloon racing, and new saloon categories, which appealed to spectators more. Any available sponsorship money went increasingly to saloon operations, thus depriving the once-drawcard single-seater series of funding. And, of course, the promotional establishment was insufficiently far-sighted to do anything about promoting 5000 racing as much as it could have
Yes David, agreed. F5000 in NZ was on its way out as the SCCA switched to the new Can-Am formula. The last year for the formula in the US was 1976. In fact, by the time the SCCA made the change the formula was all but dead in the UK too. Now that I think about it, Australia would have been the only country affected by this. The English builders did supply most of the chassis', but Lola was dominant here, and they would have switched to building centre seat Can-Am cars, even though the early examples were really modified F5000s.
Saloon racing was certainly on the up and up by the early 70s in NZ, although in reality saloon car racing was also suffering with thin grids and lack of money. NZ came to rely heavily on importing overseas teams for the international events, and Bay Park regularly imported international teams for their bigger events, but really this class was suffering, and this eventually showed when it was canned following the 1977 season. Only two cars contested the entire 1977 NZ Saloon Car Championship! All in all, the mid-70s were probably not a good time for NZ motorsport. Though in saying that, the mid-70s were a difficult time in many countries.
But the promotion and magazine coverage at this time still suggested open wheeler racing was very much considered the premier form of racing in NZ.
Not to show my considerable lack of knowledge or familiarity with Racing Down Under, but it obvious that it was literally a very different world than that of US F/A & F/5000 racing, even if there were various connections.
In the US, there were several factors that seemed to lead to the demise of F/5000, the withdrawal of USAC after its agreement with the SCCA to con-sanction the series ended in 1976 and USAC decided to not renew or adopt a similar program for a road racing series of its own. There were also concerns expressed by the promoters regarding the series, the lack of spectators buying tickets being among them as well as questions as to what next given the loss of USAC and any possible series sponsorship being a big question mark.
Within the SCCA, there was still a strong sense of yearning, a nostalgia, for the days of the old Can-Am, many thinking that the club should return to sports car racing and get away from the formula cars. The compromise was to clothe the F/5000 in sports-car-like bodywork, revive the Can-Am name. Many assumed that this would be the ticket to success, a success greatly needed by the SCCA since IMSA had largely usurped its position in professional sports car racing in the US with the Camel GT and other series, the Trans Am also being on life support at the moment.
Somewhere buried in my files is an interview I did with Cameron Argetsinger regarding this issue, he being the executive director (or some similar title) for SCCA pro racing at that time. The meeting held towards the end of of the 1976 season to discuss the future of the formula made it clear that the cost-benefit analyses for all involved was not one that favored the current direction in which things were headed. Turning the F/5000 machines into "Can-Am" cars seemed to be the best of the options that seemed available at the time. That change was both needed and desired by those involved carried the day. Argetsinger made it clear that it was not one or two things that "killed" F/5000 in the US, but rather a combination of factors and also that US racing overall -- with the possible exception of IMSA and maybe NASCAR Winston Cup -- was in something of the doldrums at that moment.
On a strictly person note, it was clear that US F/5000 was in serious trouble as early as the 1974 season. Although the 1975 seemed to go well, it merely flattered to deceive, the next season, 1976, showing all the signs of a series beginning to if not collapse, at least not long for this world. I thought that the introduction of qualifying heats during the 1973 season was a step in the wrong direction. Plus, the purse monies seemed not to be commensurate with the investments required to compete. In truth, the F/B/Atlantic races often tended to be better. To me, the series seemed to lose its way by some point in 1974 and definitely by 1975. As someone who really liked the F/5000 series from its inception, this was a bit dismaying. Wandering through the paddocks and observing as well as talking with various folks involved with the series did not boost my confidence in its long-term survival. I was not surprised with the series essentially folded and reincarnated itself as Can-Am in 1976. In truth, I just never seemed to take to the new Can-Am series, never really paying it all that much attention after the first season or so. I will admit to being surprised it lasted as long as it did, something I would never have imagined.
In some ways, what may have killed US F/5000 was the success of IMSA and the inability of the SCCA to find a countermeasure to the success of John Bishop's approach to racing, which was quite different than that of the SCCA: IMSA made money while the SCCA pro series struggled to minimize its losses.
At any rate, just some food for thought on this topic.
Pity the poor Historian! – Denis Jenkinson
Research is endlessly seductive; writing is hard work. – Barbara Tuchman
Thats an excellent post Don. Your point about the length in which the single-seat Can-Am survived is a good one. I think it may have actually survived longer than F5000?
Was there an undercurrent within the SCCA to return to amateur racing, from which it originally grew?
Isn't it amazing to compare the SCCA and where it was in 1970, and where it found itself just 5 years later. In 1970 they had the Can-Am (the original and proper Can-Am), Trans-Am, and F5000. The Trans-Am in particular was enjoying good manufacturer support in 1970. The Can-Am had McLaren, Lola, BRM, Shadow, Chaparral, and March involvement. But things were very different by 1975. Granted, they were probably victims of the times as they were by their own decisions, the ponycar market had completely fallen away, and the world was in the midst of an oil crisis.
By the time most of the field were in Lola 330/332s, some of the appeal had gone, but also the closeness of the racing. Arguably a similar thing happened with F.Atlantic/Pacific - when it was Ralt RT1s, Chevrons B34/39s and March 76B/77Bs - racing was much closer than when everyone got RT4s - wasn't it?
Both F5000 and F.Atlantic started with multiple constructors - and both prospered. In time, both became dominated by one-make, or a small handful at the most, and the categories petered out - coincidence?
There is possibly something much simpler. How much horsepower did a decent SBC spit out in 1969/70 - 430/450? By 1973-75 they had in excess of 520 - and the fields spread out more and more. A bit like Can-Am - the faster they got because of more power, the quicker the spectacle diminished.
Thinking about it now, you have a good point Michael. You'd think that with most of the cars being similar makes/models, the racing would be closer, but that often wasn't the case.
I think F5000 was forgiven a lot and I think peoples memories of it now are often viewed through rose-tinted glasses, because the cars themselves were so charismatic. But often the racing was drawn out and processional, with little overtaking after the first few laps, and the only question mark over the eventual race winner was whether his car could reach the finish or not.
The 5000s are running at Manfeild next weekend - i.e. the 12th/13th and are at Ruapuna this weekend for the Lady Wigram.
Kenny will be debuting his T332 - I'm looking forward to seeing the livery. It isn't his 1974-77 car but I know he has been tempted to turn it out in red - I wonder if he'll put La Valise Travel stickers over it..
It seems likely Michael, I think he ran La Valise stickers on his Matich many years ago didn't he?
One could suggest that this applies equally to about any type of automobile racing, present as well as past.
Pity the poor Historian! – Denis Jenkinson
Research is endlessly seductive; writing is hard work. – Barbara Tuchman
One of my favorite in-car videos. Kenny Smith at Pukekohe. Watch the hands. Listen to the wheelspin and throttle application just on the verge. Never give up.
Hey thats great! Thanks for posting. Why did the T400 and T430 not enjoy the same popularity among teams as the T330/T332?
I could be wrong and should be correctedI heard that the T400's rising rate suspension was extremely difficult to dial in (pitch sensitive?). There were stories of T332 suspension being adapted/grafted to the T400. In Europe the T400's did ok. In the US the top teams reverted to the 332's and so (I suspect) development on the T400's suffered.
Here are some shots from Ruapuna last weekend
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