Any chance of help with a problem?

[Ray Bell]

So you can see the problem with chassis number F1-2-61...

Quite likely the same kind of 'convenience' came into play with it.

Lex Davison purchased this from Bowmaker in February/March 1962 and raced it through until just a year later when he tried to punch holes in the Longford pub walls. Davison rebuilt a car using a spare chassis Brabham had and F1-2-61 was sold to Don Fraser in South Australia to reappear with a BRM engine in 1965.

So that chassis number left New Zealand in 1962 and was free to return without raising any questions in official places.

So it appears that the same chassis number was carried by the spare car brought to the Antipodes by Parnell/Bowmaker and loaned/leased/offered to Palmer for the 1963 season. Nine months after Davison's crash at Longford.

At the same time, it's definite that Bowmaker owned the T58 in November 1962, so that can't have been Davison's car. This car was fitted with a BRM V8 and practised for the Mexican GP.

Then disappeared...

Michael, whatever photos Jim might have of his 1963 mount could well give Allen some clues as to whether or not it was really the T58. This is the car he ran prior to getting the Hyslop car, the one in the little photo Ken has linked.

[Terry S]

We know that T53 'F2-13-58' is nonsense - Angus Hyslop took a car carrying that chassis plate to the UK and returned with a T53 that, for reasons of convenience, retained that plate.

A T53 could hardly have been built in 1958 - however Vercoe's book refers to the car having been 'low-lined' by Cooper...not the work of a moment. David McKinney was the most fastidious chassis number noter I have ever encountered. .

Michael, I see what you mean by "nonsense" chassis plates.

In 1961 Angus Hyslop raced a Cooper Climax T45 2 litre chassis F2-13-53

In 1962 - 63 Hyslop raced a Cooper Climax T53 2.5 litre but surprise surprise it had the same chassis number F2-13-58

This latter was the car bought by Palmer.

[Oldfart]

I was told close on 30 years ago at Cooper cars that they could not have told anyone which chassis was used anywhere. I went to visit while searching out a particular car, in fact what might have been the car used by Moss in Argentina. I was told they didn't have a ot of money to buy carnets for shipping the cars around the world for events, so they bought 3, which were specific to chassis plates. So, yes they could say which chassis plates were at an event, but what it was attached to....?
Nonsense plates, not really, very sensible! So at that time attributing a chassis number to any car, if Cooper themselves couldn't do it at the time, perhaps it would be rather difficult (I could use other less polite words) to be definitive now.
David McKinney and I conversed about this, he agreed with what I had been told as he had been told the same. As years moved on the customer cars became an area where it wasn't so difficult, what the customer did later wasn't the factory issue. As we know sometimes, again for customs reasons, a chassis might be "repaired" with a whole lot of new tubes.

[Ray Bell]

Oh, this car?



This photo, taken by Bob Britton, was identified the first time I posted it on TNF as being Len Deaton in the ex-RRC Walker/Moss/Argentina car. From memory the story goes it went later to Ray Heffernan, who was killed in it (or when he came out of it) at Oran Park in 1966.

[Oldfart]

And yet at the same timeframe as this another chassis was in Coventry UK with an ex Sunbeam Tiger V8 in the back which was thought to be the car!

[khyndart in CA]

I found this Autosport on E-Bay and tried to improve on the Jim Palmer photo at Pukekohe. Jan. 1963.
Autosport. January 18. 1963.... edition.

(https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-ZEALA...gAAOSwYmZXF9Eh )






(Ken Hyndman )

[Oldfart]

Wouldn't it be worth somebody giving Jim a call? He is very approachable and as far as I know still has a pretty extensive personal collection of information.

[Ray Bell]

I gather Michael is going to see him soon...

That picture would probably be available to Allen, Ken, I'll tip him off on that. That is a good start.

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
I know it was a hot day at Pukekohe in Jan. 1963 but does the extra small intake scoop under the front radiator mean anything in helping to identify Jim Palmer's Cooper ?
Ken

[Oldfart]

This is a request for assistance, nothing about the Cooper though. Can any of the Australian guys find a way for me to contact the Motoring Hall of Fame. I have tried CAMs and they don't reply. I have some specific questions relating to Wizard Smith.

[Milan Fistonic]

This is a request for assistance, nothing about the Cooper though. Can any of the Australian guys find a way for me to contact the Motoring Hall of Fame. I have tried CAMs and they don't reply. I have some specific questions relating to Wizard Smith.

I have sent you a PM

[Ray Bell]

Is it a secret, Milan?

I have no idea where and what it is, nor how to make contact. Can it be made public?

[khyndart in CA]

Australian Grand Prix
Warwick Farm, 10 Feb 1963
Retired
Jim Palmer (libre) 2.5-litre Cooper T53 ['P2'] - Climax FPF 4 #12 Bowmaker RT Lap 9 steering.


The 1964 NZ Grand Prix programme states;" Travelling with the Bowmaker car to Australia, Palmer put up some splendid practice times, but the car was not well prepared and broke down in a couple of races. "

Would this not be the car that Jim Palmer drove at Pukekohe at the 1963 NZGP ?




(Ken H)

[Oldfart]

Lots of "assumed" and "presumed" in that Ken! I note with interest "possibly using the carnet from F1-5-61"

[Ray Bell]

Yes, and those words from the very person who's still trying to prove what is what and where it all came from.

[khyndart in CA]

Here is some footage of the 1963 Australian Grand Prix at Warwick Farm. (With sound ! )
Jim is in a Cooper # 12 and can be seen at the 5 minute mark and also at the 12:26 point where he is battling with Tony Shelly ? before retiring on lap # 9.





(Ken H)

[Michael Clark]

Spoke to Jim - he doesn't think the Bowmaker car ever had a V8. He said they were offered it for 1500 quid but that it was heavy and would had to be de-stroked back to 2.5 whereas the Hyslop car already a 2.5 so was good to go.

[Ray Bell]

No pictures of it?

When the T58 left Cooper's it would have been stripped of all the V8 stuff, and I'm sure the 6-speed gearbox wouldn't have been with it either.

[khyndart in CA]

Ray,
These may not be of much use but I took these off the 1963 Australian GP at the "Farm" Youtube movie showing Jim Palmer coming around in car # 12. Cooper # ??







Jim was much happier driving this Cooper the following season.

(March 1964 Hawkes Bay Photo News photo)


( Ken H)

[Terry S]

Ray,
These may not be of much use but I took these off the 1963 Australian GP at the "Farm" Youtube movie showing Jim Palmer coming around in car # 12. Cooper # ??

( Ken H)

Interesting article here on Jim Palmer.

I particularly love the hay bales used to narrow the Renwick circuit in the opening photo.

https://primotipo.com/2018/01/02/ren...-zealand-1965/