What's the answer?

[rf84]

Agree with Rhys. Not sure if it comes down to money alone. Look at the initial Festival at HD (Bruce McLaren). There were good crowds. The media were hyping it up for weeks or even months prior to the event. On the Friday morning immediately before the event, breakfast TV broadcast live from HD. There was an air of excitement not seen for some years. As time has gone by the numbers have declined.
Go way back to the NZGP days at Ardmore. The biggest crowds ever seen at NZ motor sport events were in attendance (60,000+). Bear in mind that the amount of discretionary spending money of most people was considerably lower and that travel was much more difficult than it is today. Yet large numbers of people travelled from the provinces to the GP even though it could require a tedious two day (or more) journey each way.
Last weekend the GP at Manfeild reportedly had an attendance of 8,500. Of those, 5,000 were there on free tickets given to Palmerston North residents! I believe 60,000 were entitled to these free tickets. There is something DRASTICALLY wrong when you literally cannot give tickets away to people who have to travel a mere 15kms to watch our premier motor race meeting!

[Oldfart]

Noel, it might be the NZGP but I really don't think that makes it, be default, the premier meeting. I stopped going when the cars lost their appeal to me. The TRS cars are (in my opinion) little more interesting than Formula Fords. Even the small grid Formula Holdens were a big step above these, and for me, what is now promoted as a stepping stone event for aspiring drivers doesn't justify retaining the title of a Grand Prix. If I lived in the "free ticket zone" for Manfeild, I doubt that I would have taken up the offer!

[ERC]

Just caught some of the Manfeild meeting on TV this afternoon.

NZ V8 Utes (not exactly drool fodder) - 17 vehicles
NZ BNT V8's - 11 or 12 cars (not exactly drool fodder either)

Then Taupo TRS - just 12 cars...

If they can't even come up with half a grid for the support races, or a third of a full grid for the TRS race, then televising these abject failures just makes matters worse. Have they learned nothing from the last decade? I can't sing, so the very last thing I'd do is prove it to everyone and his dog, by taking part in a televised Kareoke session.

Where is the glamour? Where are the cars we'd love to own? Where is the famed Kiwi engineering ingenuity?

My challenge to them (Speedworks) and even Tony Quinn's team is quite simple "What exactly have you done to make the meetings more attractive to petrol-heads and also to casual spectators?"

I'm with Oldfart. Free tickets or not, I wouldn't bother and I certainly wouldn't travel and pay for expensive accommodation.

I just hope that Speedworks (who are no doubt making money out of this at every meeting) can sleep easily in their beds at night, as I'd be far too embarrassed to be associated with it.

[rf84]

Admittedly there are some small fields these days. But maybe we also look back through "rose tinted glasses" sometimes. Seem to remember looking at an entry list for Manfeild at the height of the F5000 days and there were 18 entries.
Solo speedway bikes provide some scintillating racing with just 4 bikes per race and rallycross with maybe 6 cars per race.

[ERC]

True enough, rf84 as I grew up with Mallory Park having a grid limit of just 14 cars, but on a 1.35 mile track (about the same as the Taupo club track), you saw the cars pass by very often, and the hairpin was a wonderful viewing spot, just a metre or two from the track edge, but with anything up to and including 1.5 litre Formula 1 cars, Ferrari GTO's, McLaren Elvas, Lola T70s, Ford GT40's and E Type Jaguars, not to mention the F5000's and Super Saloons post 1970, it was still a great viewing experience and before getting my own transport at 18, something to really look forward to, especially Bank Holiday meetings.

[rf84]

You raise a good point about track length Ray. Manfeild (in it's original form) is a pretty good spectator circuit. Then they extended it to bring it "up to international standards" to try and attract teams to test there and to secure international motor bike meetings. Arguably it was an abject failure in all respects-it is very boring to drive, the spectators could almost go get a hot dog and be back in the stand without missing a lap and the internationals never turned up. HD and Taupo have gone down the same route without seemingly adding anything to their appeal (to spectators at least).

[Allan]

It would appear that New Zealand is not alone with this problem. I have just returned from the Hi-tec Oils 6 hour production car race at Mount Panorama where my mate and I had a major problem with the crowd.......we couldn't find it. At the top of the mountain it was like attending a minor club meeting. There was literally no one there. Good meeting spoiled by safety car interventions (not the organizers fault) with interesting support races.

[Oldfart]

Allan, I suspect a 6 hour production race is never going to draw crowds as they used to, even the B&H events were sparse compared to others.
I suspect it has something to do with lack of activity, and being able to see lots.
World rally Cross is huge over here. Quick fire, all action, and the next heat is ready to go before the last is finished. What you see (rarely) on NZ TV is not representative as there are other classes too which fill gaps. As the cars are going off track a good percentage of the crowd is head down on their phones, and what they are doing is watching replays and checking times and points. It's a changed world.
Motorbike Speedway is also crowded out, the same thing, 4 laps, all go, next class going in no time, as is NZ speedway in most forms.
I suspect we old fogies haven't caught up with what the other generations want.

[Allan]

My point is not the small crowd, it's no crowd. This is race day at Mcphillamy park.

[ERC]

Oldfart is correct when it comes to all action Speedway and Rallycross, but let's not overlook that Goodwood Revival is a sell out months in advance, yet even if you are there for all three days, you only ever see each race group twice.

If you are only doing the Saturday or the Sunday, then you only see half the competitors - and there is a phenomenal amount of wasted time. Not so bad if it is warm (which it might be) or dry, (which it might be). Not so much fun if wet, (which it probably will be). Gates open at 7:30am, activities start no earlier than 9am, and some activities may go on until after 8pm - which is a very long day indeed when the weather is cold or wet - or both.

The saving grace for Goodwood is that there are literally 100's of stalls and food outlets, not to mention a pre 1966 car park or two of considerable interest - and you can walk right around the outside of the circuit for a decent close up view of every corner. You are not penned into a tiny fraction of the track with cars out of sight more than they are visible, or so far away that there is no connection with them.

What they do have is an amazing variety of interesting cars on track (as well as off) and that is the real attraction (for me anyway). At least if you attend, you do see all those fantastic cars that the TV coverage totally ignores and an old style track, where there is no intrusive wire fencing spoiling the view. With NZ's TV coverage of identical Sing Song utes, Toyota single seaters, Toyota 86's etc., you are not missing anything at all by watching on TV - in fact, with far too many tiny grids, you might as well watch it on TV, otherwise trackside attendance can be a chore, not an excitement.

Yes, I am well aware that we get the occasional freak accident, where cars such as Dean Fulford's Porsche so nearly landed in the crowd on the front straight at Pukekohe (shades of 1955 Le Mans sent shudders down my spine at the time) and no doubt there are others, but ironically, Speedway's regular accidents are part of the attraction of speedway, but you go there for action, not a range of interesting cars - and I don't even take the camera...

[bill hollingsworth]

Track length is critical for spectator appeal. Bigger is not better. Calder was ruined when they lengthened it and the long circuit at Winton is a shocker, providing none of the racing action of the short circuit. Also the softness and grip of tyres has reduced spectator appeal. gone are the days of tyre smoke and squealing which is why drifting crowds eclipse the circuit racing crowds. One big plus for Goodwood is the four wheel drifting due to skinny hard tyres.

[ERC]

I'm not sure whether or not anyone else has noticed, but even in our classic arena, many grids have started to shrink and there are quite a few well known cars currently for sale on TradeMe. Membership numbers may still appear to be healthy, but from Classic Trial through to the bigger engine formulae, numbers are no longer increasing on track.

I suspect the realities of the increased costs are kicking in, not to mention older drivers hanging up their helmets. Increased costs of race licences, clothing, safety items, entry fees (health and safety levies, track hire, MSNZ race levies etc.). Sure, there are always new cars being built, but we are rarely seeing overflowing grids or even grids more than half full. That concerns me, even though I have no vested interest.

[Allan]

Your expressed concern Ray, is one that many of us share. To add to the points you make is the value of some of these vehicles and the increasing cost of repairing even minor damage, which I am sure keeps many under cover in there sheds.

[bill hollingsworth]

"Racing" for historic cars presents many issues, damage but one of them. What attracts me to historic racing is the variety of cars. The actual racing can easily be a double edged sword where if you want to win particular cars start to predominate reducing variety. Goodwood is a great example where they want a true representation of racing in the past and nobble the quicker cars as was the case with the Camaros that this year had to run factory cast headers. Also in the quest to win the cars begin to lose their historical character both in appearance with umpteen degrees of negative camber at the front and grippy tyres and trick shock absorbers that reduce the interesting cornering angles of the past. The only exciting real historic racing I have seen has been has been on very short tracks, the longer tracks turn races into processions. Race meetings should be car shows with a theme or themes to attract particular car clubs.

[rf84]

Nonsensical rules are discouraging competitors. Our local club ran a Standing 1/4 Mile Sprint last weekend. They take advantage of the MNZ rule that a person can do two events before having to join an affiliated Club to try and encourage people into the sport. A prospective new member turned up in a Fraser fitted with six point "Sabelt" seat belts which, unfortunately, were more than ten years old. He was not allowed to compete. Being an open car, this car spends a large percentage of its time in a darkened garage so its heavy duty material seat belts are not subjected to a lot of damaging sun's rays. Another competitor could enter the same event in a fifty year old car fitted with only lap and diagonal belts of far inferior material that had been subjected to the sun's rays every day for the last fifty years and that would be allowed to compete!
When the sport is administered by people who demonstrate such a total lack of common sense it is little wonder that it is in decline.

[bill hollingsworth]

Has a seat belt ever failed in the recorded history of mankind? No such rules apply to road cars which have those skinny loose sash belts.

[ERC]

Couldn't agree more with both the above posts. A 3", boxed, full harness belt, unused, but more than a few years old is deemed scrap, but an ancient, thin, skinny 2" belt is OK?

Having retired myself and the Marcos, with a spaceframe chassis, fibreglass body, that was totally restored and strengthened in 1994, the tubed, threaded plated seat belt mounts just behind the seat back for the shoulder straps, neck width apart specifically for harness belts, with no facility for a lap and diagonal reel, mean that because I don't have a race licence any more and no authority card, I can't use the car on the road, as there is no exemption for harness belts on the road for a car with a roof... A Fraser or similar Lotus Seven lookalike can get an exemption.

Quite where MSNZ/NZTA/LVVTA come from in terms of safety equipment defies all common sense. Don't get me started again on the 40mm roll cage tubing farce either... That is still a very, very sore point. I have a cage that is LVVTA approved and on the LVVTA plate, but not MSNZ approved, even though it was built to their design and their rules changed after giving permission to go ahead and paint.

You can use harness belts in road cars in many other countries but not NZ. Why?

[928]

you can use harness belts in nz, they must have an EU approval. Schroth do a set, with the correct numbers and approval, for a range of road cars.

[rf84]

You raise another good point re roll bars Ray. We had an (ostensibly standard) Subaru competing locally that was a full SIX seconds faster up a hillclimb than a Porsche GT3. The Subaru had no roll cage and a standard lap and diagonal seat belt. If the Subaru had been fitted with a roll cage it would have had to be homologated with MNZ. This costs in excess of $500 for the paper work alone let alone the cost of the roll cage. What is preferable-having a car with a roll cage that is not homologated or having a car with no roll cage at all?
Three years ago I imported an aluminium fuel cell from the USA. I cannot use it now because as of January 2016 fabricated fuel cells have to have paper work to prove what materials and what welding filler rods were used in it's construction. It then has to pass a pressure test. Yet someone can have an old car whose tank is possibly affected by rust and that's OK?
All more reasons to question the competence of some officials.

[ERC]

As for cages, the engineering test required for a free form cage (ie not strictly to one of MSNZ's plans) is so extreme, that a similar MSNZ approved cage would fail it...

MSNZ seems to think that a little used steel shelled road car, needs the same sort of cage as for a full race, fibreglass skinned race car.

They also ignore anything other than the cage itself, totally ignoring any existing bodyshell strength, so you'd need the same cage in a 1500cc or 2 litre normally aspirated road car. as an armour plated Sherman tank. As with many of these rules, it is down to personal safety, that wouldn't affect anyone other than the driver in a serious crash.

MSNZ has a mission statement that they seem unable to abide by, which is to encourage participation.

Even overseas, things are not as smooth as they used to be either, as apparently, they now struggle to get a grid of pre war historic race cars to Monaco. High costs and minimal track time don't help.

The one area where NZ race organisers score highly (well, most of them) is the determination to cram as many races in the day as possible, but if drivers are being forced out, for whatever reason, rather than encouraged, the future is looking a bit grim.

By the time Elf & Safety have finished, you won't be able to race cars at all. Just tricycles with foam rubber surrounds or Scalextric cars - as long as there is some electricity...