What's the answer?

[Kiwiboss]

I believe we all need to make the most of what we have as we'll all be gone(as in RIP) before the sport dies.............nothing is perfect, circuit racing is in a minority these days and is slowly tapering off, its death knell will be financial RE: becomes too expensive for competitors so they stop turning up and we have no spectators anyway, then its all over. Hampton over time will be consumed by housing and gone, Puke is protected by the horse people.....

Anthony, you are correct about Speedway, they are more organized and put on a great show and don't keep adding new classes, the BIG plus is it is only 3 hours of your time on a Saturday night, an easy sell.

CAMS Australia have controlled circuit motorsport particularly historic racing with an iron fist and reap the rewards today(they still have issues but minor) were MSNZ;s total hands off approach has ruined it over here.............I even have a breakaway group trying to form within HMC because they don't like what I'm doing, and are infact quite entitled to do so under our NZ system were anyone with an idea can go "Hey, lets start a class" and you are also rite Anthony, unless you have your family or young persons coming though the said class will eventually die.

On the flip side, at Hampton Festival, although no crowd the Central Muscle Car guys had a 30 car grid and put on a great show, now that is one expensive class, you can almost see the $100 bills blowing by in the pits yet they always turn up with a large grid, they have more cars in the build some upwards of $400K, there entry fee's are expensive and yet they always have numbers..............hell they even took 30 cars to Bathurst last year and had to be back in 3 weeks time for the Hampton 101 and then a week later Puke Supercar round, can you imagine the spend to do this? so why is this so just for this class(I consider then NZ premier Tier 1 group) so we can't say its about the money as that's not the case with these guys, and as we speak they have 30 cars going to the South Island for Skope and Timaru.......no other group can do this?

[John McKechnie]

#20
Dale- You are 100% correct , (I was there then and still here now)
Backed up by reports in Motorman and Autonews.
And the racing was not always exciting.- but we loved watching the visiting V8s

[John McKechnie]

fans come to see cars, drivers and also to see them race.
A short one day/ evening meeting is great for the fans.-plenty of action, then go home. Just like Speedway. I loved Waikaraka Park in 70s

1-Does motor racing exist for the fans

2- is it a formula whose classes need changing just to keep fans interested.

3-Does more carnage on the track add to the excitement of a class to keep the crowds returning?

4-Should there be a compulsory age retirement so the car passes to the next generation so Historics arent seen as geriatric racing and unattainable.

5- track location. The Mount was great with motor camps, the beach, real summer holiday place.
HD has the track only, nothing else there.
At Taupo, after racing there is the Lake, lakefront...holiday place feeling.
Manfeild, Pukekohe there is the town very close by for after racing or the family to visit.

6 - dont let the race meeting drag on with long races. plenty of 6 lappers

[Allan]

From what I have read so far I get the following impression.

1/- Too many circuits........ NO
2/- Too many classes........ Maybe
3/- Lack of discussion between venues about date clashes........yes
4/- Entry fees too expensive.........probably

Those of you old enough to remember the late 60s and early 70s will no doubt recall the great days of the Tasman meetings and the crowds that turned out for those and the competitors who made a great effort to make sure that they attended at least the meetings closest to their home town.

[John McKechnie]

Allan..

3- There is again a clash this weekend also.- Premier -TRS-at Hampton Downs, Tranzam at Taupo

4- Taupo in the weekend was free entry for our Historic classes and that made a HUGE difference to us. Thank you so much BMMP Ltd.

[ERC]

Rhys. The ASR's often state that the entry fee will be refunded in full if the organisers are notified before documentation commences. No excuse.

I lost count of the number of phone calls I got after midnight, or my wife got at 6am, when some elated driver asked if he could enter, as he'd just finished screwing his car together. When I'd already left home at 5:30am, my wife was less than pleased...

Dale. You have a philosophy about what your cars should be and ERC/Alfa Trofeo, have a philosophy of what their cars should be. CMC and pre 65's also have a philosophy that appears to work for their drivers. I could name several other series that have fallen over - and also cite the reasons for some of them.

People running off with a different philosophy is fine, just as long as they can turn up with a viable grid which satisfies the financial criteria of the organisers. If the organisers seek to put on a grid that ends up with just 3 cars running (Taupo last weekend apparently and even your own group at several TACCOC meetings I recall), that is a risk they take. I seem to remember a post of yours where you were getting very depressed about the lack of support you were getting and you made the sensible decision to include Historic Saloon Cars.

The financial constraints are still the biggest bar to competing regularly and the true entry level of Classic Trial, is no longer a low cost entry route, which is why they are not swamped with entries. That one class should in theory, be the largest at any meeting, as wannabe racers use it to test the waters, whilst those wanting to experience the track and blow the cobwebs out of their cars can do so without much fear of panel damage caused by other drivers. It is no longer a low cost entry point.

The structure or progression in racing has been quite clear for the last decade.

Level #1 - Classic Trial

Level #2 - Racing but on road tyres and possibly cars to a road legal standard - Alfa Trofeo, BMW E30, AES/Arrow Wheels - CoD Optional, Hooters Vintage, (even 2K Cup, but maybe that doesn't belong here, even though some have used it as a means to progress to ERC - the Peugeot 205's for example.) Is Japanese Classics still running?

Level #3 - Racing historically correct and with a CoD, full trim etc. HMC/HSC

Level #4 - Race saloons and sports cars, historic race cars etc. FF, FJ, Historic Sports Sedans and Allcomers, Formula Libre, BMW open, CMC, pre 65. Clubmans/sports racing. Some have a CoD, some haven't.

John: Try telling Kenny Smith or Ray Williams they should have retired! The average age for the ERC list when I last ran the series was about 52 years - and dropping slightly as younger ones were coming in.

One of the reasons we opted for the pragmatic relaxation of age criteria (for the car) was firstly, Peugeot 205's for example, Alfas and BMWs are what the next generation drove. You can no longer nip down the road and get spares for a Hillman Hunter, or Riley 1.5 - particularly body panels, so keeping them on track or driving to and from the event isn't so easy.

Only we oldies are going to know what a Daimler SP250 is, so the youngsters aren't going to go out looking for them. They didn't grow up with the cars we did, so their perception of an old car is a young car to us.

[John McKechnie]

Reassessment of some terms after Taupo weekend

Fan
- grid marshalls, flaggies and those who tirelessly support and are the backbone of a voluntary sport.
A chap called Paul who three times came up from Wellington to help drivers with refuelling, air pressures, bleeding brakes and generally driving race cars around the pits to make sure they are good to go.
People who came into the pits and talk about the cars.

Spectators
- they watch and its neat when they wave after a race.

Enthusiast
-someone who has more than 2 race cars sitting in their garage.

Optimist
-class coordinators
race drivers who think they are going to get 2 days in a row of sunshine, and that the air will stay in their tyres for this length of time.

Ray- that is so sad about Classic Trial. For me that word means basic introduction to cars on the track and much better than thrown in the deep end tail of a race feild...but is it a necessary class as a race track is a race track not a creche.
Also we have had endless discussions here about getting old race cars back on the track. It is hit and miss. I bought a stranded Torana XU1 V8, got it running and legal with a COD only because there was a class for it now

[rf84]

Is the fact that there have been clashes of dates between Taupo and HD EVERY weekend this month not a result of there being too many tracks in a small area? Put yourself in a circuit owner's shoes. You have many millions of dollars tied up in a track and it's associated amenities. Are you going to sit back and allow a circuit a few hours up or down the road to hold a meeting and (possibly) make money while your multi million dollar investment lies idle?

[John McKechnie]

Last year and previous years there have been Jan 14, 21 Historic Festivals 2 weeks in a row at HD.
Taupo has had the 21st Jan date and I had drivers wanting to do first week at HD and go to Taupo 2nd weekend.
This year there was no 2 weekend in a row Historic Festival.
Jan 14 was Legends of Bathurst at HD, and HSS ,HMC,HSC were invited to Taupo for their usual Historic F5000 GP on 21 Jan
It would be fair to say that this year was the first time Januarys race events have come to everyones attention..
Not enough cars, groups, themes to go around.
So this weekend is Toyota Racing Series and Premier Classes at HD and HRC Events Ltd is doing Tranzams and other groups at Taupo.
Each track is 3 1/2 hours apart chose your particular interest and go to that one.
As for me I am running 2 Border Collies at Counties Agility as thats where my interest is .

there is no one easy answer to this question, but keep talking here.

And encourage friends to get their cars out, my choice has been to let 4 people drive my cars to build up their enthusiasm and it works.
Its easy to fall out of race mode
Also just helping friends can get you going.

[ERC]

Classic Trial does belong at a meeting and I think TACCOC kicked it off back in the Whenuapai days. Running it at a Classic/Historic race meeting makes a lot of sense as often, these racers do indeed progress to the various race series and as the name suggests, they generally are running classic cars. It is an opportunity to mix with the racers off track, pick their brains as to race preparation and study the way the races work. If they decide they won't progress, but are happy running their prized cars on track, great. There are some neat cars in that group and as it is relatively risk free, why not? They don't belong at an Auckland car Cub meeting.


We no longer have race meetings run by Lotus, BMW, Jaguar, Alfa Romeo, Datsun Z and MG etc., so the only meetings now run at HD & Pukekohe are ACC, HRC and TACCOC, with HD also running its own Festival. The only exceptions are the so called Tier 1 and Aussie V8s.

Again, as in other sports, the lack of volunteers hasn't helped and without the well organised and totally dedicated Motorsport Club providing flag marshals and meeting officials, quite frankly, there wouldn't even be any racing these days - and even there, the youngsters are running the dummy grid - and very well too I might add.

People are generally unwilling to devote their spare time to organisation and officiating these days and trying to co-ordinate a race group, sort handicaps and also race is a very big ask and few can really be bothered to assist and even fewer, make a success of it.

The modern motorsport arena I have no involvement with nor much interest, as it seems to me that only now are they waking up to the fact that without older stuff such as Central Muscle Cars and F5000 propping up the meetings, they just aren't delivering anything of any great interest and in that respect, questions need to be asked as to where and why they have failed.

Ironically, both of those groups also offer great varieties of competing cars (and performances are not equal) and decent sized grids.

The penny hasn't yet dropped.

[John McKechnie]

Ray.....Excellent reason for why this Classic Trials exists and its continuation. As you say, ideal at Classics/ Historics to get neat cars in it.

[Oldfart]

Is this particularly a North Island thing?
Noel has expressed the "too many circuits". I haven't seen a lot of comment re HD vs Pukekohe, but more HD vs Taupo. Hmmm.
The South Island , with a much smaller population has 3, Ruapuna, Timaru and the Teretonga. I know they no longer get the huge crowds at Teretonga, but we don't get the great drivers to the NZ events like days of old, so how much does that affect things. Those 3 are no further apart than HD to Taupo, and I see that Manfield hasn't been thrown in?

Perhaps the "cars are the stars" which most of us on this forum have espoused has back fired in getting spectators through the gate? But to the average spectator, as defined by John above, it's obviously the other way round, otherwise why do they go to the V8 (Oz type) meets where the enthusiast knows they have the same chassis etc etc, but Joe Average still buys into either the name driver thing, or the Ford vs Holden.

Ray, never had an entry fee refunded, except for the Ngawhini hillclimbs.

[ERC]

I have refunded many Rhys! Easier to do than to try and update every official's paperwork in the days before HRC's computerised Entry System. Doing last minute additions for the secretariat, timekeepers, scrutineers, commentator etc., used to be a real mission having sent them out earlier.

Most drivers don't read the ASRs...

Sample extract from way back in 2008:

"Full refunds will be paid to competitors who advise Bill Ritchie in writing (email) before 9am 12/03/2008 that they wish to withdraw from the meeting."

Good point about the Aussie V8's, and Red vs Blue, but that seems to be an historical thing. I'm willing to bet that the Joe Average wouldn't know the difference between a Formula Ford, Formula Vee and Formula Atlantic and what's more, couldn't care less.

That being the case, I suspect that Joe average and his kids take motoring today as a right and treat their cars in the same way they treat any household appliance. To them, a car is to get from A - B.

Just remember that back in 1959 for example, at the UK Motorshow, Triumph announced the Herald, Ford announced the Anglia and BMC announced the Minis. This was BIG news! TV coverage, newspaper coverage, the annual Daily Express Motorshow Guide, a new Observers Book of Automobiles - annually. New cars were BIG news then.

When the E Type Jaguar was launched, again, massive news, so no wonder we teenagers were car mad. Are today's teenagers car mad? Somehow, the magic has gone and even those of us who could name every car on the road by the time we could talk, can't even identify the moderns, which is one of the reasons we are into classics. Character.

This may not be giving any answers, but may partially explain the problem.

[Allan]

To add to the mix "OF", what has become of the plan to build a facility at Tapawera/Kohatu just out of Nelson?

[Oldfart]

To add to the mix "OF", what has become of the plan to build a facility at Tapawera/Kohatu just out of Nelson?

No idea! I was told "once upon a time" that it was an Australian investor. Does that ring bells?

[John McKechnie]

was that the guy building it for himself with a F1 car. Suffered in the earthquake?

[Allan]

A chap by the name of Gary Adcock I believe.

[ERC]

Garry (double 'r') and the latest on Google was October 2017, so still seems to be a goer.

[Oldfart]

was that the guy building it for himself with a F1 car. Suffered in the earthquake?

I thought he was much nearer to Kaikoura than Nelson. From what I have seen he has built the track, and car(s?) very private. The Nelson area one was supposed to be very commercial, including kart tracks, off road, track experiences.... sound familiar? but I can make 2 + 2 = anything I like.

[Peter M]

I like to take my motor home to motorsport events, out of the places I have taken it Taupo motor sport park ( Bruce McLaren) is the only place that charges reallistic affordable prices, I paid $25 a night for a powered site.
At the Lead foot it is $100 unpowered site for the weekend which is very expensive ( this event may well be a once every 3 or 4 year event for me to attend )
I went to the HD 101 in 2016 and paid $100 to camp there with no power, I went back in 2017 and stayed at the Huntly camping ground for $15 for a powered site also used their shower ( saved cleaning mine ) I also went back to Huntly when attending the average Bathurst festival.
My wife and I are are members of the NZ Motor caravan assn,(most owners are ) the majority of motor camps are considerably cheaper than HD or Leadfoot and ofer a lot more facilities. We have stayed at Clubs and recognised parks without using their facilities between $10 and $20 per night for 2 people.
I enjoyed Taupo last weekend and was impressed what they have done for catering for motorhomes.A large number of competitors and spectators use them for accomodation and tow vehicles.
Peter