And what about the modern trend started by Paul Radisich of bouncing on the kerbs ?
And what about the modern trend started by Paul Radisich of bouncing on the kerbs ?
Is this what you mean about 'attitude'?Originally Posted by ERC
One thing that always grinds my gears these days is after every race, they wait until the last car is back in the pits, then they send the "safety car" out for a lap. In my eyes this is a complete waste of time. They never used to do this and there weren't mass casualties, so why now - what's changed that makes it legitimately necessary? The marshall points have to be close enough that they can see the the next one, so if there is anything left on the track, or oil or whatever, the marshals should call it in. When Mum and Dad used to run the dummy grid at Pukekohe for years, Dad always had a radio so Debby could tell him when to release the cars. So he heard after every race, Debby put a call out to the marshal posts, who all had to call in, in the correct order, that their section was clear and free of debris / oil spills / stray camels et al, and when that was complete out the cars went.
I know some tracks are moving away from marshalls, and having the place totally covered by cctv and digital "flags", so again, they've got the place totally covered on screen, how about looking at the screen then?? They put a safety car out mid race because a washer fell off someone's car and is lying in the middle of the track, so that proves the camera resolution is fine.
I wonder it if's a bit of the old boys club with mates looking after mates and hooking themselves up with a borrowed latest model Lamborrari for a few blat laps under the guise of "track inspection"?? They're usually flogging it, going way too fast to actually be able to spot a stray bolt or anything smaller than a bonnet on the track, so one really does wonder...........
I've never actually worked out how long this takes over the course of a meeting, but I reckon you could get another race in. Like Ray says, lots of looking at empty tarmac and not much racing going on..............
The Festival just gone was the first one I haven't gone to. I used to come back from Perth especially for them!! This time I was home ( for good ), only had to get in the car and down the motorway.......when taking into account the complete lack of shade and seating, the likelihood of either an expensive, poor quality, or a combination of both, program, the final nail in the coffin was the increased ( over previous years ) ticket pricing. Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age, but I need to be able to justify the whole day, time to drive there and back, and expense, and I couldn't do it. Sometimes I think promoters are their own worst enemy, when you look at what they do, how they do it, and what they charge. Simple, really basic things ( like the program amount other things ), and they screw it up. Makes me wonder what's in the pipe they're smoking??
I'm slowly building my car, but lately I'm wondering what for? Entry fees have gone through the roof ( last time I entered a meeting it was $180 for a 2 day at Pukekohe ), you get stung for some BS safety levy, and get exactly what for it that you didn't get before this levy was introduced??? plus everything else costs more these days ( Avgas, tyres, brake pads etc etc ). Makes me wonder if I'm building an expensive public test day car that'll still get seen off by a $5000 Honda Civic with a set of sticky tyres?? My brother doesn't race anymore because the entry fees are getting out of hand, although he's looking at doing a few TACCOC one day meets where they give a discount for entering 2 or 3 meetings ( props to TACCOC for trying something different to spark interest / more entries ).
Can someone explain why a 2 day meeting entry fee now is around $300-350? When 'back in the day' ( 2003 I think it was ) it was $150 -180? Where has the basically doubling of costs come from? Oh they put up some garages so you don't have to sink in the mud. Yeah but they charge ( a fair bit ) extra for a garage. Can't see what else has changed to justify doubling the cost. The venue hasn't changed, the track hasn't changed, the facilities have barely improved ( still no power anywhere unless you pay extra for a garage, and no power at all at Puke last time I was there last year )....what am I missing?
Just wait for it. Someone will come back and say NZ entries are cheaper than overseas, I have heard it before. You know what, like for like they are not any more. Competition licence in the UK is cheaper, entry fees are cheaper than has been quoted, no extra levies I have seen. Hmmm. So that's not the answer.
What was the question again? Perhaps the answer is a bit like Hitch hikers guide, the answer is 42
Thank you all for your input. Some very good points raised by all especially Ray, Trevor and Andrew. I have to agree with most of what has been said so far. One of my favourite beefs is the way over the years that our sport has morphed into what it is today and downunder the worst example of this is the V8 supercars (or whatever they call them now). I have never been a fan of controlled components such as is used in many classes today as in my opinion it takes away the "we can build it just as good or better" attitude that many of us have.
Twenty years ago the Aussie V8s were factory produced road cars converted into race cars and everyone involved lived with the inherent problems that this created such as skinny tyres and bad brakes, but the knowledgeable punters were happy knowing that the race cars they were watching weren't that far removed from the car they drove to the track in. Not any more! The current batch bear no resemblance to the road car they purport to be. They now all use the same transmission, brakes, wheels, tyres etc with the engine and outer panels being about all there is to identify them, and the guards are now composite so if there is a bit of "rubbing" the tyres aren't destroyed. And the NZ version is just as bad. And to add insult to injury the Aussies are are now talking about paddle shifting. They may as well sit in a tower with a remote controller and race them.
Oh that we could go back to the good old days when we could take a crashed road car into a dirt floored shed in outback Waikickamoocow and using Kiwi ingenuity turn it into a competitive race car. We used to do it with rally cars back in the 70s and 80s and look how some of them turned out.
I have one final plea.......Don't get me started on Formula one.
Allan,
You have spoilt my day as I was going to do a story about going to the 1998 Canadian Formula One Grand Prix but after reading this I will put my material back in the shoe box.
Montreal F 1. 1998. By the way that is a real blue F 1 car in the background, not part of the Warsteiner Beer wall poster !
Interesting comments on this thread about things I was not aware of.
( Ken H )
Last edited by khyndart in CA; 01-30-2018 at 08:20 PM.
Well said Allan.
Sorry Ken. Your input is always welcome.
Thats the best use of a F1 car ...a wall decoration in a corner
Hey don't knock Formula One because if I remember correctly, that when those drivers showed up here in NZ (When the winner won one thousand pounds !) then so did the crowds to see them.
(Dream on Hyndman.. )
I am referring to today's F1. I well remember the great days when you would have been involved Ken. And I also remember fondly the great drivers who came out to race in NZ, which is where I got my interest in the sport. I also remember having to sleep under the hedge next to the short straight which ran up to Railway corner so as to get a decent spot because of those crowds.
Last edited by Allan; 01-30-2018 at 11:26 PM.
Allan, you are on the front of the grid.
You further amplify what I pointed out. Currently motor racing no longer proves interesting for both spectators and prospective participants. The basics have become lost and the competition no longer belongs within the real world. "Robots on rockets". It has transcended beyond being a sport. (Coincidentally, the circus is no longer a drawcard.)
Just like soccer and most professional sports. Money, money, money.
Going to a UK second or even first division soccer match in the 1950's, when a crowd of 40,000+ wasn't unusual, it was a pocket money admission fee.
We have all read books such as Alf Francis, Racing Mechanic and others from the mid 1950's to mid 1960's, or even more recent books such as Bob McMurray's, where the Bernie Ecclestone professionalism and massive sponsorship, not to mention huge numbers of personnel and their corporate entertaining, changed F1 for ever.
As someone stated earlier, Bathurst was an annual must see event, even for those of us who had never even heard of it until 1982 so in an effort to bring in parity and control costs (sic), top level motorsport has lost its way so I totally agree with Trevor.
The question asked by Allan is "What's the answer?" I'd add the rider - "If there is one".
Andrew asks WHY costs have sky rocketed and that is a good point.
I have just had a look back at the accounts for the 2009 opening classic weekend at Hampton Downs November 2009. Saturday was Sprints and Classic trial with Club Lotus, and we, (ERC/Monza) ran a race meeting on the Sunday.
I could list all the costs and income for the weekend, but I see very little point, other than MSNZ's coffers benefitted by $5,256 - and since then, MSNZ levies have doubled - as have race licence fees. Why?
The entry fee for racers then was $135 and for Classic Trial and sprints, $110.
Rhys, we paid back a total of $3,500 in returned entry fees (including 1 of $90 and one of $75 as a percentage as they didn't inform us in time).
We paid to have the ERC and BMW E30 races filmed at a cost of $5500 (for us, the same for BMW) and a set of DVD's produced for those who wanted to buy them, at an additional cost.
We had to pay out for rubbish disposal, radio hire, fire extinguisher hire, timekeepers, stewards expenses, programme and ticket printing, breakdown crew, St Johns, secretarial costs, FIV fuel, and voluntarily water for the marshals plus a BBQ at the end of the meeting and a voluntary donation to what would become the Motorsport Club and a couple of helpers.
We made a very small profit and as the first full race meeting at HD, we took about $2,000 on the gate at $20 a weekend ticket. Do the math...
Maybe someone would like to come up with today's charges at HD - and I do hope that one day, someone will work out why the Elf and Safety levy is $25 per DRIVER and what that covers and why per driver?
Last edited by ERC; 01-31-2018 at 06:32 AM.
You are quite right Ray when you ask "is there an answer?"
I think one of the problems relates to the way technology has evolved in motor racing since the halcyon days of the 60s and 70s when if you asked your driver what the problem was he was complaining about we would get an answer that came from his experience and the feeling in the seat of his pants. No computers and telemetry in those days, just good old fashioned knowledge and experience on the part of both the driver (most of them) and the crew.
Take a look at the Formula 5000s that are being preserved and raced today. Absolute beasts that required drivers with real steelys to muscle them round circuits like Pukekohe in the old days at the speeds they did with races that lasted in some cases an hour or more which gives me a great respect for those who race them today, valued as they are at a small fortune. One of the great aspects of these cars was their simplicity, which made them easy to maintain and repair. They went quick and made lots of noise which the crowds loved. Those were the days when the best place to see them was at the circuit and not on TV.
The one series I watch is the Aussie V8s. Why? Because they are so close that at some circuits one second covers the top 20 after qualifying and that Kiwis are doing well. But I am not a fan of the silhouette racers that they have become over the last few years and that they are continuing to develop into.
As a throw away line I'd like to know what was wrong with the old group A of the 80s and early 90s?
ERC, the figures you have quoted are beyond reason, but do not surprise me.
As a competitor and committee member (Hon Sec) of the Northern Sports Car Club, I observed the commencement of the erosion of motor sport with the advent of the first NZ Grand Prix. The anticipated profit was obvious and bureaucracy became established drawn from outside of true motor sport.
Simultaneously, the opportunity to gain positions of power became obvious within ANZCC (Now MSNZ) thus enabling politics to enter the scene, with the key being the monopoly established via the license to Federation Internationale de L’Automobile (“FIA”). And the rest is history.
Speedway, even at this time, was and always had been professional, but apparently did not suffer the same fait. With the money involved in open view there was no hiding of facts and enthusiasts remained at the helm. Check the history of Western Springs Speedway, once very well operated by George C. Smith.
Where's the "like" button when you need it?? Quote of the Day goes to Mr McKechnie, thanks for making me laugh
Yes there is an answer, but I don't believe we'll ever see it as there are 1: too many people in high places with conflicting interests; 2: too many in the PC / elf and safety brigade that don't want to accept responsibility for anything, or blame anyone else, so they legislate every single thing so that no one can get hurt or anything else, thereby removing all personality, and the chance to be an individual like the old sports sedans / all comers / etc days, from the sport, and so we end up with Sing Song utes and Toyota 86's at "level 1" meetings. I hate to say it, but the writing has been on the wall for quite a while, and it's not being cleaned up, and doesn't ever look like it will.
TACCOC, HRC, and others have been to the AGM in Wellington several times trying to get well thought-out, common sense changes made to improve things, but get shot down in flames every time, so what's that telling you?
I didn't write what I really wanted to here, because I don't want the website to attract undue legal attention if someone had got their knickers in a twist, but I'm sure you've all read the news articles and the other forum about the wheels falling off, and can read between the lines....
Last edited by Andrew Metford; 01-31-2018 at 08:32 AM. Reason: Spelling
Here you are John - once driven by a Kiwi and yet another treasure that is no longer at Donington, but last I heard, owned by Kiwi Roger Wills. Not sure of the date I took it (colour slide) so it resides in the undated folder at the moment.
Last edited by ERC; 01-31-2018 at 08:48 AM.
Andrew, as I explained.
"Simultaneously, the opportunity to gain positions of power became obvious within ANZCC (Now MSNZ) thus enabling politics to enter the scene, with the key being the monopoly established via the license to Federation Internationale de L’Automobile (“FIA”). And the rest is history."
As a result a very cunning undemocratic MSNZ constitution was established with the outcomes you point out. In another forum, some time ago, I pointed out how this could be broken but was ignored.
At the time I also pointed that everyone was pissing into the wind and it would appear that bladders remain full. LOL
Last edited by Trevor Sheffield; 01-31-2018 at 09:40 AM. Reason: typo
Got a link please? Must have missed that one.
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