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Thread: This is getting ridiculous

  1. #41
    Interesting release I received yesterday, which is actually dated February. 5 point harnesses are no longer FIA acceptable from Feb 2018 on. For all FIA regulated motorsport NEW harnesses must be to the new 8853:2016 standard. The hologram label will be gold, rather than the previous silver ones.
    Quoted from the release
    "4 point harness to the OLD 8854:98 standard , this can only be used in certain historic championships if their regulations allow it. They can still be purchased new however ONLY to the old 8854:98 standard.
    5 point harness these can can continue to be used under the old 8853:98 standard if they are within date. They CANNOT be purchased new as of January 2018.
    6 point harness, these are the ONLY harness allowed under the NEW 8853:2016 FIA standard . Also they are only allowed with a moustache crutch strap, NO V straps allowed.
    For 2018 1pt and 2pt crutch straps CANNOT be purchased as a separate item to be added to 2018 dated 4 point harnesses."

    End of quote.

  2. #42
    Semi-Pro Racer Paul B's Avatar
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    This is the latest release from Motorsport NZ regarding the use of Frontal Head restraints with regard to regulation requirements and installation

    Clearly there are many considerations with regard to the use of a FHR which must be all taken into consideration to have a correctly installed device befitting to the type of seat and harness which is fitted to the car being used.
    It now appears that a 4 point harness cannot be used with a FHR, only 5 or 6 point harnesses.

    Name:  MSNZ FHR1.JPG
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    Also below are the FIA installation guides which have been provided by MSNZ:

    https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...tion_specs.pdf

    https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...ation_spec.pdf

  3. #43
    What I posted (post #41) is FIA ruling and relates only to belts. Of course, many of us know that MSNZ has previously said that they may add to or delete from FIA rulings so they may be doing the same again. I do note that what you have copied still mentions the 5 point.

  4. #44
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    So, reading the above, my Marcos is no longer able to be raced at Hampton Downs as it does not have a competition seat and never could have as the driver sits on a cushioned floor and built in seat back. I suppose the same applies to any single seater? Or is this taken out of context?

  5. #45
    Semi-Pro Racer Paul B's Avatar
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    Probably best a call to MSNZ technical for that one Ray, for clarification.

    There must be a few machines out there that either a seat (FIA standard 8855
    -1999 or 8862-2009) does not fit or impractical for older single seaters.

    I have just posted up what has just been released from MSNZ to help all concerned, for the greater good.... Racing.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
    Probably best a call to MSNZ technical for that one Ray, for clarification.

    There must be a few machines out there that either a seat (FIA standard 8855
    -1999 or 8862-2009) does not fit or impractical for older single seaters.

    I have just posted up what has just been released from MSNZ to help all concerned, for the greater good.... Racing.
    We seem to have the bizarre situation where MSNZ are (correctly) stating that the use of FHR will be unsafe in certain circumstances (such as not having the correct FIA specified seat or not being able to achieve seat harness angle attachments) but HD/Highlands saying that FHRs have to be used no matter what. As most historic single seaters and sports cars can never achieve the FIA FHR standards due to how they were built, are HD/Highlands mandating the use of unsafe FHR installations ..... a risky position to take.

  7. #47
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    Is this being driven by external H & S consultants/advisors or are HD/Highlands scared of any legal implications, when I would have thought that the promoter is the one carrying the risk. Why is it that full harness belts are effectively illegal on the public roads? Does that mean NZTA have a legal liability in the event of a fatal accidemt as they allow people to drive with lap and diagonal 2" belts, at 100kmh?

    Maybe TQ wants to drive out all amateur sport, all classics, historics and single seaters? Surely, someone must have a reason for implementing this new rule? Has anyone actually asked HD/HP/TQ?

  8. #48
    [QUOTE=RogerH;67469]We seem to have the bizarre situation where MSNZ are (correctly) stating that the use of FHR will be unsafe in certain circumstances (such as not having the correct FIA specified seat or not being able to achieve seat harness angle attachments) but HD/Highlands saying that FHRs have to be used no matter what. As most historic single seaters and sports cars can never achieve the FIA FHR standards due to how they were built, are HD/Highlands mandating the use of unsafe FHR installations ..... a risky position to take.[/


    I fitted and use a 6 point harness with HANS in the A40, couldn't get the angles spot on because it's so cramped inside and I want to keep the original roll cage which wasn't designed for these latest ( or even preceding) harness regulations. But after studying the angles and anchor points I believe it adds safety rather than diminishing it.
    I should also modify my kneecaps so they are not so close to my chin...
    Last edited by Grant Ellwood; 08-29-2018 at 10:21 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by ERC View Post
    Is this being driven by external H & S consultants/advisors or are HD/Highlands scared of any legal implications, when I would have thought that the promoter is the one carrying the risk.
    I would think that it has been done with good intentions on a H&S basis and probably on the recommendation of so-called H&S experts who possibly have little knowledge of motorsport. By HD/Highlands mandating FHR use without conditions or discretion they are actually increasing their risk of H&S non-compliance as the industry experts (FIA) have done comprehensive studies to come up with FHR best practice. This best practice has identified situations where FHR use increases the risk of adverse driver well being outcomes and appropriate exemptions have been regulated. HD/Highlands are either unaware of this or have ignored it and accordingly must have put themselves at considerable risk.

  10. #50
    I think I have read somewhere that FHR are best with seats with wings at helmet height. Does this mean that at some point we will all have to purchase a new seat?

  11. #51
    Hans were initially designed for F1 use where the high cockpit sides provide inherent protection for the driver's head from lateral movement. As such, the Hans only had to deal for fore and aft head movement which it controls very well.
    However, in situations where there is no in-built lateral protection (high side single seater cockpits or FIA seats with a halo/wing set-up) the Hans does little to protect the driver's head in anything but a straight on impact - if the car is in an accident where the impact is at any acute angle then an FHR device that has a lateral protection component provides significant better protection - such FHR devices that provide lateral protection are the likes of the Simpson Hybrid and the Necksgen.
    So to answer Allan's question, the alternatives seem to be either keeping the old seat and using an FHR that provides lateral protection or get a new seat with wings and use either type of FHR.
    I use a lateral FHR and find it non-restrictive and comfortable.

  12. #52
    Ok - am I missing something here? According to the FIA installation guide Article 4.1 In a saloon car HANS devices MUST be used with a FIA approved seat. So does that apply worldwide or have the Gods of Hampton made a special rule without doing all their homework....there must be dozens of racers who have gone out and bought one that don't have an FIA seat....or does Hampton over rule the FIA?....

  13. #53
    This release came from Historic Racing Club. It relates to events where VCC has involvement, however I am reasonably confident that a case could be argued for other occasions. Belts angles for HANS are mandated, using others may make the device worse than nothing.

    "With regards to the trigger points that we use to implement the use of FHR here at HD, here is a summary of how we will apply these for the VCC events for the 2018/19 season:

    if the vehicle is fitted with a minimum of a 4 point harness and has a high backed seat which constitutes a head rest then a tethered FHR device must be used
    if the vehicle is fitted with a minimum of a 4 point harness fitted but when competing in period-build uses a low backed seat then a foam donut is required
    for all vehicles fitted with a 3 point (lap and diagonal) belt system a foam donut is required
    for all vehicles which, in period, are not fitted with any form of harness or safety belt system, the use on a neck support device is not required
    please note that when and where a foam donut is required, this must be made of a fire retardant material meeting either FIA or SFI requirements".

    There are many people that use FHR with seats other than the FIA specced ones, eg Can Am, F5000 etc. It would pay to get advice from a ruling body, in NZ MSNZ, as their requirements frequently (at least in the past) differ from FIA.

  14. #54
    Right so now I have to:

    1. Fix the car for the coming season (engine issues after last season)
    2. Purchase flame proof underwear
    3. Have my cage modified so my belts are at the now 0-20 for FHR device
    4. Get a FHR
    5. Get new belts that are 6 point (5 points I have are ok for now...but...) - more welding to the floor of the car for new mounting point for the extra crutch straps
    6. Get a seat that is designed for FHR and approved for the appropriate standard - that might not even fit in the car anyway....

    Right so that adds up to more than the what I have spent in the last 3 seasons - only usually do 2-4 meetings due to costs already and this after I gave up building my Datsun 260z and purchased a Mini due to cheaper running cost and part availability (good luck finding good Datsun panels after a minor ding...hence my reason for change).

    Looks like I made the wrong life choices - 4 kids take a lot of time and money leaving little for my "fun" and now the "fun" is getting to a point where I just can't afford to do it anymore working for wages....Lotto where are you...

    I better join the younger generation and get a PS4/Xbox or PC and do my racing virtually and see you on the track in 10 years time or....never....
    Mike L


  15. #55
    I'm guessing there are only 2, or perhaps 3 of those purchases that don't cost too much, and yes collectively it's a fair old lump Mike.
    Due to the very precipitate announcement I know the NZ parent company of which I work for the European arm , was able to get a very good deal for FHRs which they passed on. Harness bar shouldn't be a biggy (come on MSNZ be realistic about cage mods) and undies aren't too bad.
    Some of the others are big ones.

  16. #56
    Many years ago we complained about the winners engaged in cheque book racing. It is now obvious that motor racing is confined to cheque book racing. Sport ??? Glad I am out of it.

  17. #57
    Mike L... along with the flameproof underwear, dont forget you also must have-
    A-balaclava,
    B-gloves and
    C-correct sox.
    These are not inspected at logbook time , but are surreptitiously noted before or after a race meeting...ask Rick Cooper.

  18. #58
    wait until you all need the FIA specified F1 helmet which is under trial as we speak. only one manufacturer but the helmet is totally safe.
    wait for the drivers to get a massive pay rise now they are being kept alive to spend it.

  19. #59
    John Mc - Historic racing don’t you guys need period correct gear like fire proof walk socks up to your knees, racing cheese cutter cap. Maybe be a fire proof silk scarf. ����

  20. #60
    I have it on good authority-
    1-racing cheese cutter caps are for the Lotus brigade
    2-silk scarfs are for Porsche 911/Jaguar XKs
    3-fire proof walk knee lengths are for Mini 7s

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