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Thread: MNZ survey

  1. #1

    MNZ survey

    I suppose many of you received the MNZ survey of those who did but don't anymore, compete that is.
    It is interesting to note the numbers from those who responded to the survey.
    96.9% male
    34% over 65 (the majority)
    39% who competed in classic/historic events
    77.7% held C1/2 licences but only 4.5% held R1/2 licences
    The reasons for no longer competing were interesting
    50% said the cost of competing
    34% said the cost of entering
    25% said the cost of the required safety equipment.
    These last three tell us that some had more than one reason. Of course the safety equipment is a fixed cost once you have it but as most of you know its the add ons that occur every now and again that hurt.
    Just as an aside I once added up the safety gear that we had for our Targa car and that came to around $10,000 without including any costs related to the running of the car.

  2. #2
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    The question that wasn't asked in the survey, was whether or not those who have elected to walk away, had any reservations or any dissatisfaction, as to the way MSNZ was run.

    Maybe this also has something to do with it... From the HRC Newsletter receive today.

    3rd May 2020

    Tony Roberts, Chairman of the Historic Commission, today resigned from MSNZ citing disappointment and dissatisfaction with the direction Motorsport Management was taking.

    Roberts said that the Historic Commission had questioned the process by which Motorsport House was being sold and then questioned the secretive process of the sale, but received no meaningful answers to their questions. Tony Roberts said that as a major asset of the member clubs, the constitution applied to the sale and the member clubs should have been involved in the decision to sell and that the sale process should have been transparent.

    Without an auction, how do we know if the member clubs achieved the true value of the building he said? The building was sold for $1.3 when the Government valuation was $1.53 million.

    Tony Roberts, who is also the President of the Historic Racing Club Inc, Chairman of NZ Historic Muscle & Saloon Cars and Chairman of the NZ F5000 Association and has been on the MSNZ Historic Commission for 20 years.

    Roberts was the recipient of the prestigious MSNZ Ron Frost Award for his passion for Motorsport and the building of Hampton Downs Motorsport Park in 2011.
    Last edited by ERC; 05-09-2020 at 09:25 AM.

  3. #3
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    The fixed cost of safety gear isn't quite fixed, as those with competition seats belts know only too well. For a rarely used car, they still have to be replaced based on date, not usage.

    For many, the demand that fire resistant underwear, socks, balaclava and boots, was mandatory, followed by HD demanding HANS type devices, was the last straw.

    Based on race track accident statistics over the last 40 years, this wasn't justified as a compulsory, especially at National level, and should have remained an advisory.

    ERC numbers alone have dropped 30%.

  4. #4
    so what's going to happen in the future post covid, money will be tight, how on earth will rack tracks survive too?

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    I don't know how the survey was distributed. I assume it was sent to individuals who are on some MNZ database ie curent licence holders. Surely to have any validity it would have to include those who are no longer competing ie don't hold a current race licence.

  6. #6
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    It was indeed sent to those who had not renewed licences. I hadn't renewed mine from September 2016.

    What also has to be taken into account is that many those of us of early baby boomer age, are now retired. Although there are quite a few over 65 and even over 70 and 75 competing, the numbers will drop off each year and possibly faster than new ones coming into a sport that has got progessively more expensive, especially over the last few years.

    The MSNZ fees have rocketed far, far faster than the rate of inflation and extra demands on tracks hasn't helped.

    As per the HRC newsletter with which I agree 100%:

    "If MSNZ wants to truly work for the competitor and the future of the sport, there would be no $53 levy per competitor per race meeting, licences would be $25 instead of $200, permits would be $50 instead of $500. MSNZ has bloated over the years and it needs to downsize quickly, especially with the Covid 19 crisis."

    The backbone of the sport has always been at club level, with a small pinnacle at the very top, but it appears that the lower echelons who can least afford it, have been paying for an unnecessary hierarchy and possibly subsiding the upper levels, not to mention regulations written to suit the upper echelons.

    The race levies 'per driver' of $53 plus at HD, a H & S levy of $25 takes a huge chunk out of the race entry fees.

    Add paramedics/ambulance, towing, radio hirage, even before track hire - which has also rocketed in recent years, and the cost to put on a meeting lands on a shrinking number of competitors.

    I have always campaigned for larger grids and copped a lot of flack from several quarters, including those more closely aligned to MSNZ, for drawing up a set of rules 25 years ago that encouraged participation rather than purity. My stance has never changed on that, but from the sidelines, I have seen some miserably small grids from several classes. Not cost effective, boring for spectators and track officials alike.

    This may be repeating myself, yet again, but running a race meeting is a commercial undertaking, not a charity. If five drivers want the track to themselves and keep out those they don't agree with, that is fine, but if the cost of running the race meeting is $2500 per grid, (plus the levies), then those drivers should expect to pay the $500 plus levies - and that only lets the promoters break even on that grid - and not expect better supported classes to subsidise them.

    MSNZ has had a monopoly and abused it to the extent that they have not stood by their own mission statement, of 'encouraging participation'.
    Last edited by ERC; 05-10-2020 at 06:45 AM.

  7. #7
    Well said Ray. Bureaucracy is the bane of everything it touches.

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    MNZ has morphed out of the original body called Confederation of NZ Car Clubs. As others have said it better represents racing at national and international level than it does club level motor sport. What benefit is it to someone doing a club event that MNZ is affiliated to the FIA for instance? Maybe it is time that we have a two tier system of admin-one for club events and another for those who want to race at a national or higher level?

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    I see the AGM is coming up late May. Is there a list of remits anywhere?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf84 View Post
    MNZ has morphed out of the original body called Confederation of NZ Car Clubs. As others have said it better represents racing at national and international level than it does club level motor sport. What benefit is it to someone doing a club event that MNZ is affiliated to the FIA for instance? Maybe it is time that we have a two tier system of admin-one for club events and another for those who want to race at a national or higher level?
    Agree - or, club level should almalgamate or form a branch of the Vintage Car Club... They seem to have a far better grasp of what their members want - and more importantly, need.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rf84 View Post
    MNZ has morphed out of the original body called Confederation of NZ Car Clubs. As others have said it better represents racing at national and international level than it does club level motor sport. What benefit is it to someone doing a club event that MNZ is affiliated to the FIA for instance? Maybe it is time that we have a two tier system of admin-one for club events and another for those who want to race at a national or higher level?
    As I understand it motor racing can not legally take place unless under the jurisdiction of the FIA and as a result MSNZ holds the trump card. Speedway competition within NZ could provide an avenue and a legal argument towards a back door and the at very least a lever to open the door.

    I first became involved with the original body as secretary of the NSSC over sixty years ago and have observed their operations closely ever since. The bureaucrat's tool has always been the constitution of the organisation and its slant restricting the voting rights of the individual members who finance what has become a very private setup. As it was and as I now presume it remains, an association of "clubs" rather than an association of "members", thus restricting the individual voting power of those who pay the money on which it floats.

    In order to commence a serious discussion, it is essential that the exact current constitution is published here. I have been unable to find it anywhere on line. I have the original but there could have ben amendments, Can someone please oblige?

  12. #12
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    As you well know Trevor, as do many of those who have attended conference, 'one vote per club' totally overlooks the wishes of many larger clubs, with a very active membership (BMW would be a prime example) even though larger clubs were pouring in a lot more in the way of club levies.

    When a 20 member club has the same voting power as a club with 400 members, the outcome is always going to be skewed. Attempts to get that changed have failed, as turkeys don't vote for Christmas. The only way to get that changed, would be for each large club to split into groups of 20, so you'd have BMW 01, BMW 02 etc., each with 1 vote, but running under the same overall club constitution.

    That is why the MGCC Auckland - with over 400 members, pulled the plug on MSNZ membership. Only a small percentage of members held competition licences anyway, so there is now MG Motorsport, a small sub-section of the MGCC, who will be paying the annual levy.

    In theory, yes, MSNZ control the sport, but if you built a private track, didn't bother with MSNZ, there is nothing stopping the owner of that track running whatever events it so desired. However, if you elect to hold a MSNZ licence, you are automatically hooked into the FIA.

    It appears though, that over recent years, that MSNZ has assumed a life of its own, instead of supporting the clubs and more importantly, the club members.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ERC View Post
    As you well know Trevor, as do many of those who have attended conference, 'one vote per club' totally overlooks the wishes of many larger clubs, with a very active membership (BMW would be a prime example) even though larger clubs were pouring in a lot more in the way of club levies.

    When a 20 member club has the same voting power as a club with 400 members, the outcome is always going to be skewed. Attempts to get that changed have failed, as turkeys don't vote for Christmas. The only way to get that changed, would be for each large club to split into groups of 20, so you'd have BMW 01, BMW 02 etc., each with 1 vote, but running under the same overall club constitution.

    That is why the MGCC Auckland - with over 400 members, pulled the plug on MSNZ membership. Only a small percentage of members held competition licences anyway, so there is now MG Motorsport, a small sub-section of the MGCC, who will be paying the annual levy.

    In theory, yes, MSNZ control the sport, but if you built a private track, didn't bother with MSNZ, there is nothing stopping the owner of that track running whatever events it so desired. `

    It appears though, that over recent years, that MSNZ has assumed a life of its own, instead of supporting the clubs and more importantly, the club members.
    I am quoting the above for the very good reason that it explains the exact situation I was well aware of, but had hoped could have improved somewhat over the last 5-6 years as a result of amendments to their book of sad songs. Unfortunately, as I stated, "it remains, an association of "clubs" rather than an association of members"

    You point out "However, if you elect to hold a MSNZ licence, you are automatically hooked into the FIA". Currently what is the position if a license holder participates in Speedway, Gocarts, Stock Cars and the like. Can MSNZ wave a stick? Is there a hole in their monopoly which can be exploited?
    Last edited by Trevor Sheffield; 05-11-2020 at 05:43 AM.

  14. #14
    I had a discussion with Peter Martin of Silver Fern and Targa ownership. In conjunction with some Australian event organisers they have established an alternate overseeing body, AASA. MSNZ thinks, or has endeavoured to convince NZ motorsport participants that they hold the controlling rights. That is being challenged, so perhaps there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
    Silver Fern is not under an MSNZ permit.

  15. #15
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    I cannot see how the FIA or MNZ have exclusive rights to car racing. In the case of a club (or clubs) choosing to run events without a MNZ permit what action could they take against that club(s)?

  16. #16
    Hi guys,

    A few points:

    The original survey came from HRC, not MSNZ, and was directed at those who had not competed at one of their events since 2017. I was a recipient of the survey email even though I still have a race licence. As HRC is primarily aimed at Historic and Classic cars and most people who own/race Historic and Classic cars are older themselves, it is no surprise that the majority of respondents are in the 61+ age group or that the largest class of events competed in are Historic/Classic events.

    The MotorSport New Zealand website has a link to the constitution on it's website. It is an 18 page pdf document - the link is through the "About MotorSport NZ" option on the home page. Alternatively, this link should take you to it:
    https://motorsport.org.nz/wp-content...8-71st-AGM.pdf

    The MSNZ AGCM has been postponed. Here is a link to the news item on the MSNZ website: https://motorsport.org.nz/motorsport...rds-postponed/

    As far as I am aware, remits were not published prior to the postponement being announced.

    My club (Wellington Triumph Sports Car Club Inc.) has been sending a delegate to the AGCM for years - Ron Robertson in fact, who is also in the MG Car Club (Wellington Centre) and the MG Classic Racing Register. He is one of the people who organises the MG Classic at Manfeild every November so isn't there just to make up the numbers. In fact, at $250 for each delegate (and an additional $250 for each extra observer) it is unlikely that anyone is there merely to make up the numbers.
    Anyway, my point on this matter is that Ron didn't think it was worth sending a delegate any more as delegates don't get to ultimately vote on a remit. Sure they all vote but the final result isn't guaranteed to get a remit through. It merely means that the Executive are aware of the feeling of the meeting when they subsequently decide on whether the remit becomes a manual amendment. This approach is defended by the point that the clubs voted for the members of the Executive to represent their views so therefore the members of the Executive can do the voting for them. Sort of like Parliament really.

    On the question of what does MSNZ do - well, run an event where someone dies and (as long as you have followed the rules) MSNZ will provide legal representation to stop you going to prison. Hopefully. They certainly did in Queenstown a few years back.
    I'm looking forward to AASA being tested in a similar way, not so much with someone dying but more with being tested when the brown stuff hits the fan.

    Another thing that MSNZ does is provide Authority Cards so that cars with full cages can still get WOFs. I'm been told that the LVVTA and NZTA aren't interested in dealing with anyone else in this regard (that seems wrong when I think of drag cars driving round with roll cages, but anyway...) so I'm waiting to see how cars on Targa will fare in between stages.

    I've got nothing against the AASA - in fact I'd be keen to use them if they can tick all the necessary boxes. But I also remember back in the 1990s when MSNZ (or MANZ as they were) threatened to cancel the competition licence of anyone who raced at a non-MANZ race meeting (specifically, Ohakea, which wasn't raced under MANZ regulations).

    On the subject of other, existing, sanctioning bodies. MSNZ in the past have said that they hold the mandate for all motorsport activity in New Zealand and for the purposes of speedway and drag racing (and probably others that I'm not listing), MSNZ have delegated authority and responsibility for those to their respective sanctioning bodies.

    Right, well that was longer than I expected -let me know if anything makes no sense.

  17. #17
    As I understand it, motor racing in NZ was originally organised under the banner of the NZ Automobile Association, who were affiliated to the FIA. I have a suspicion that the AA did not in fact legally relinquish their position and simply transferred governance to the ANZCC, hence MSNZ. All of this ground was dug over some five years ago within another forum to no avail. Here lies an opportunity whereby this place could leave a mark.

    A talented motor sport intheusiast who knows his way around exploring legal matters is called for. Not necessarily a qualified lawyer, but one who will take on the project of carefully investigating every legal aspect and carefully look for every possible loophole. As I pointed out years ago pizzzzing into the wind continues to blow back. LOL

    However if the najority of those involved in motor racing are happy that they are getting value for money, so be it.

  18. #18
    The FIA is not only a body involved with Motorsport, it has many other interests, and AA is still a member.
    Who gave FIA any authority to e the "super body"? As far as I know they just took it on themselves, in the same way as MSNZ has, they don't have a right bestowed on them by anything other than folks being prepared to bend over and take it.
    If what you have said above Alan Hyndman, why were a number of quite prominent drivers threatened with removal of licence for competing at Speedway events? Jim Richards for one.
    I could quote many instances where what MSNZ dictates differs from FIA and even more from what other similar bodies around the world suggest, but as Trevor has said in his last paragraph above....
    Last edited by Oldfart; 05-11-2020 at 01:35 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfart View Post
    The FIA is not only a body involved with Motorsport, it has many other interests, and AA is still a member.
    Who gave FIA any authority to e the "super body"? As far as I know they just took it on themselves, in the same way as MSNZ has, they don't have a right bestowed on them by anything other than folks being prepared to bend over and take it.
    If what you have said above Alan Hyndman, why were a number of quite prominent drivers threatened with removal of licence for competing at Speedway events? Jim Richards for one.
    I could quote many instances where what MSNZ dictates differs from FIA and even more from what other similar bodies around the world suggest, but as Trevor has said in his last paragraph above....
    "and AA is still a member." Is this documented as a fact? If so where can I find the evidence? It could indicate the train of authority I had envisaged.

  20. #20
    World Champion ERC's Avatar
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    Thanks Alan. I had overlooked that it was an HRC Survey. (I seem to fill in so many surveys on line that I tend to forget who sent them!)

    The bias towards classics and age isn't therefore surprising, but let's not overlook that HRC, or more specifically Chris Watson, (an unsung, forward looking hero if ever there was one), initiated the U2K Cup series that attracted a lot of new blood into racing, and many of those will have been HRC members. I have no idea how many of those have been put off by rising costs, but they certainly gained good support and had good grids. They also had a higher standard of driving and despite the negatives from some quarters that it would be 'hoons driving p*s boxes like dodgem cars', it was/is a good stepping stone.

    Going back a few years Mike John, who initiated Targa NZ, had tremendous battles with MANZ and was on the verge of setting up an outlaw organisation. Pity that came to nothing, but the problem is that the tracks themselves seem to be tied into MSNZ. If say Pukekohe, Hampton Downs, Taupo and Manfield, banded together and pulled away from MSNZ and took the NI race members with them, then what?

    All they'd lose would be the MSNZ so called Tier 1 series - and judging by the support that hasn't had over recent years, no great loss, except for the NZ GP maybe - and I'd be more than happy if that went to the South Island. If the South Island tracks also banded together, MSNZ would be stuffed. The only losers overall might be those with International aspirations, but in the overall scheme of things, they are relatively few. I'm sure Australia would be happy to adopt them.

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