Going Even Older!!!

[Oldfart]

Following on the success of the Roycroft Trophy which was held at Easter, hosted by the Waitemata Branch of the Vintage car Club of NZ, there is to be another meeting in 2012.
As a way of getting even more on track there is a plane to have Vintage Racing Saloons. To comply with Vintage rules these must be pre Dec 31st 1960, and only modifications which could have been done in the period are allowed. There are more "guidelines" anyone interested PM me and I will be happy to send out the current thoughts. Specifically Minis and 105e are not allowed. Yes we know they were first produced in 1959, but the aim is to have fun, there are no prizes (all right, possibly lemons for the total wallys) and the 2 cars mentioned before would likely kill the class before it started.
Think, 2.4 Jag, A35, A40, Zephyr, Morris Minor, DKW, Auto Union, Light 15, Peugeot 203 all on period tyres, slipping and sliding for the pure fun. Got the idea?

[AMCO72]

Great idea Oldfart. You say Minis and the 105E are out, BECAUSE they would clean up. Point taken. In the few models you list that are OK, one, the Zephyr is going to be the one to clean up here!!!!!! What about an MG 1100 ? The ado16 shape may JUST scrape in. Happy to hear your thoughts on all this. Should be a bit like Dale Mathers and his muscle cars...get TOUGH with regs. NO excuses!!! The hot shot boys can go 'jump in the lake'.

[AMCO72]

More.......Road registered and WOF ??? Rollbars ? Full harness seat belts ?? Glass in doors and rear screen ?? Alloy panels ?? etc etc etc. ie. what EXACTLY are we going to be allowed to do.

[bob homewood]

Now this is sounding ok ,could be a trip back down memory lane if the cars are kept period as we raced them ,before seam welding etc ,actually 1959 might have been a better cut off on paper ,but tell me more ,if I can help let me know

[AMCO72]

It would be lovely to think we could drag the old side-valve Morrie out from under the trees, stick some gas in the tank, and go racing. But this is not going to happen. The old days of production car racing with crappy old brake linings, poor cooling systems, and such was a great leveler...big ,heavy, relatively powerful cars paid a big price for lots of stopping....hence the little guys often did ok......like the Riley 1300 we were talking about in another thread. But everyone will be pushing the boundaries as hard as they can go....you can betcha boots on that. The reason I asked about the MG 1100 was that I still have the car that I raced after the Amco Mini in Classic racing way back in 1987. She was/is a heavy old thing, and was like driving a old LIP Vauxhall compared to the Mini BUT a load of laughs on the track.......used to do 55 second laps of old Taupo....but I was a lot younger then. So Oldfart.....get this off the ground.....I might be tempted. But Bob, what are you going to drive, being a dyed-in-the-wool Anglia man???????

[bob homewood]

Gerald,
Well I was a Chev coupe man,A30 ,A40 and Humber 80 man before the Anglias ,hows that for a mixture ,guess the A40 of the Farina type would make the most sense ,although in the past ,I had a bit of a interest in the Peugeot ,they had a interesting head design that lent itself to doing interesting things,you know me always looking for a challenge

[bob homewood]

Mind you I was a bit worried when I saw the title I was conjuring up Austin 7.Morris 8 and sit up and beg Fords etc

[AMCO72]

And dont tell me you wouldnt come out of retirement Bob. Holy-smoke, I can see you with a grin from ear to ear wheeling some inappropriate machine round HD. Actually that was the beauty of old Taupo, no LONG straights so the horse-power boys didnt get away from you. How I miss that little track, and the steak sandwiches at the after race function. Can still smell the onions cooking!!!!! Probably wouldnt be allowed to have a barbeque running now.....might pollute the atmosphere. Like the fun stories on yards and yarns....we didn't know we were alive. Whoa......lateral thinking again.....this idea of Oldfarts sounds better by the minute. Go for it!!!

[AMCO72]

See, told you Bob, you are already planning your strategy, and which machine is going to reward you with all the hard work you will be putting in.

[bob homewood]

Gerald this story probably belongs in the Y and Y ,but talking of inappropiate vehicles reminds me of when I built up my KE10 Corolla and turned up at Manfield with it,I overheard some one saying to his mate some w***** is going to race this ,wonder what he thought when not only did the W***** race it but he ended up second in his class next day ahead of a lot of more fancied and conventional cars,but then I guess I also did use what was basically a modified CF Bedford motor in my Sports car for a couple of season,no you can't beat something a bit different

[bry3500]

Nice idea guys..I'm imagining a field of cars something akin to the Goodwood revival St Marys Trophy race, Saloons between 1950 and 1959..must be a few of those old Brit cars still lurking around over there in kiwiland

[bob homewood]

Now the Borgward thats another one that has always intrigued me ,if you remember they used those engines albeit highly modified in F2 up against the Climax etc

[AMCO72]

Yes, and doesn't that A95 or 105 go like stink. Doesn't handle too badly either. A big lusty 6 cylinder engine....could tune it to Austin Healey 3000 spec. God here we go already. You might be busy finding a Borgward Bob. When I was at school, I used to baby-sit for a Doctor, and he used to take me home in his Borgward Isabella..... think it had column change.

[bry3500]

That Martin Brundle driven A35 goes like stink as well.....

[bob homewood]

When I sold the Lotus Cortina I had about fifteen years ago I must confess I searched the clasifieds loking for a Borgward ,yes the itch was there to do something different ,but in the end I spent the money on a dyno instead

[Kiwiboss]

A class like this wouldn't be out of the question!! the age generation that would probably race these cars would/should at least be more sensable and educated as not to over modify or over drive such vehicles!! but race them purely for the entertainment value, infact one may have to start a series championship to make these guys drive harder and faster!! LOL, LOL and lets face it, the younger kids might like it as well because hell!! where do you see a Borgward these days!! they wouldn't even know what one was, at 51 i only just do, LOL.

PS: You may have to have a "Grandson" clause to stop younger drivers taking the wheel, LOL(now im been a smartass, sorry)

Dale Mathers
HMC Director(and hatchet man)

[bob homewood]

I expect Ellis will be on here soon ,reminding us about the FJ Holden ,now that would be another great choice and a even bigger reason to catch up with Ellis at Baskerville and see some in the flesh first hand ,thats some thing else on my to do list at the mement
The no Grandson thing sounds good as well Dale

[Oldfart]

Thoughts for Vintage Racing Saloons.

The following is some thoughts for debating so that a set of “Guidelines” could be put in place so that potential participants are aware of the “spirit” which others take part under.
It is NOT my intention to state what these must be, but I feel very strongly that a framework should be in place before problems arise.
In order to start discussion I have penned some thoughts, please feel free to discuss, add, delete or amend. In this way I think that a robust and fun class could be in place in a short time.

Cars.
The car to be a production saloon which was in production prior to December 31 1960. Onus of proof of this rests with the owner. Variants of saloon, ie staion wagon are acceptable, sports version (non saloon) are not. Cabriolet and coupe ??
Body modifications, ie chop tops, channeling, tail chops etc are specifically banned. The car shall have a full complement of seats as sold, although the drivers’ seat may be replaced with an alternate with better support. Current “wing” seats are discouraged.
Bumpers shall be in place.
Hubcaps are not required.
All lights should be in place, headlights taped (as was done and required in period).These must be in working condition.
External trim strips, ie chrome etc. PLEASE DISCUSS, my personal feeling is they should not be compulsory, as in period they were often asked to be removed for safety, also an item that may be difficult and expensive to find.
Floor mats/carpets, I do not think they should be required, but if removed the floorpan should be a subtle colour so it is not too obvious.
Steering wheel should be of the period.
Instruments must be period, ie no digital, shift lights etc.
Roll over protection. A thorny one. I suspect there are varied views on this. Up to the individual?

Engine
To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion. Ie one off engine transplant is not acceptable, but where this was not uncommon would be allowed. Onus of proof as above.
Modifications to the engine.
Only modifications which could have and were been done in the period (pre Dec 60) are acceptable. This one is a can of worms, but should be, I believe the basis of the “rule”.

Suspension
Shall remain in the same form as when sold new. If the car was fitted with lever arm shocks, they must remain as the only form of shock. Likewise lever arms which form suspension arms. Cars may be lowered by no more than 50mm. Springs may be modified in stiffness, number of leaves etc. Axle location should remain the same as original, but additional members may be added, ie panhard rods, Watts linkages, tramp bars, as long as the primary location remains. Test of this to be detach one end of any rod and the car remains suspended. Alternate on lowering, to be road legal.

Brakes
Must remain in the same form as originally sold. Ie if sold with drum brakes, no conversion to discs is allowed. Brake scoops, ventilated back plates, Alfin type drums are allowed. Brake lining material is free. Conversion from rod or cable to hydraulic is acceptable. A secondary form of braking is recommended, even if it is only handbrake.

Wheels
Must be of a size which could have been fitted in the period. This automatically means that widened wheels are not acceptable as this process was not in place until later in the 60s. Alternate wheels, eg van versions, 13” rims on original centres, Vauxhall wheels on Ford 10, wheels from a later version (pre 60) are acceptable
Tyres
Must be of no lower profile than 65 series, road tyres. Ie no race or semi race tyres are allowed. They should be available readily without specialist suppliers.

Presentation
The car should be presented to a reasonable standard. The spectator should be able to expect to see cars of reasonable standard, no primer, dents etc unless sustained at the same meeting, although contact between cars would result in questions being asked of both parties.

EXTRA
It has been suggested that a car having been allowed at one meeting does not, as of right, qualify for any other. Additional restrictions may become needed as the use of these cars becomes more common. All modifications should be reversible without disagreement, discussion is fine, argument is not!

Now here you go for something to move forward. Please do not accept the UK rules, they allow way too much, ie 1275cc in 58 cars etc.

I am thrilled with the enthusiasm!

[bry3500]

I'm thinking the only concessions should be for safety.. (Roll cage, race seats, harness, fire extinguisher system, cut out switch etc)

[bob homewood]

Quick glance that looks like a good basis,might sound like a stupid comment fron one who makes his living modifying cars ,but don't open the flood gates on modification ,period stuff or properly documented proof is a good starter ,no one offs or pipe dream allowances I have seen every form of saloon car racing destroyed by that,might have to just think on the wheels a bit from the safety angle ,I think the type of tyres needs a good think as well ,but its interesting you have got me looking