Boy, you guys, this has the potential to be really interesting! A 39 Ford coupe would fit right in.
Boy, you guys, this has the potential to be really interesting! A 39 Ford coupe would fit right in.
OK Steve, your entry number is???
Remember the 4.00 by 16 crossply tyres?
I've been discussing this idea with a number of people since Oldfart rang me and told of his idea. Almost everyone has had the same response of "what a great idea, but now you've ruined the next few days while I think of cars". I reckon this will be a great step in increasing field numbers, and now HAVE to find a car. Please don't put the 100 year car+driver in, I don't think a pre 45 car would be too race ready without WAAAAAAAAAAAAYY too much work.
Might have a winner here I mentioned the idea to a couple of " older " people today ,they think its a great concept and next question they asked me is what do I use
I think the average 29 year old would throw all the toys out of the cot if you suggested that he drive/race a 71 year old car, he wouldnt be able to find the 'press enter to start' button...... No dont need them, keep it at 50 or over for the driver, when they see how much fun your having they might start to grow up quicker!!
Now I just happen to know who Peril is, and he is not too far away from the 29 years you mention. He is more often known for those funny engines they claim are 1200cc and make a "crap, crap, crap" noise! Now if he is enthusiastic, there is hope for the next generation! Then again my 21 year old son wanted to get a car too, but he might have to wait a wee while before he comes hom from a rather interesting job in thee UK designing Triumphs. Not all the young guys are only capable of driving PS3!Originally Posted by Jac Mac
Last edited by Oldfart; 09-19-2011 at 07:40 PM.
Oldfart, have you come up with a name for your class yet?
Surely...."Old Farts Racing' !!!!!!Not something boring like.... 'pre 61'. Have been raking my brains trying to think of a suitable machine and I keep coming back to BMC. As peril787b says, some of these potential 'race cars' are going to need massive amounts of work to get them competitive,or even safe, and at what cost. All those old 50's cars are very heavy, so I want to know how much lightening are we going to be able to do. Probably the most sensible would be an A40 Farina, but apparently we cant bore out to 1275cc, although I cant see why not, as the technology was there in the late 50's. Better still would be an A95 or A105 as these motors can be made to give serious HP, also have the option of over-drive, and a lot of other advantages compared to say Bobs choice of Borgward.....not the least a better spares availability. Other than that we are going to have to resort to super-charging with all it's attendant problems. I like Beowulfs idea of towing your 'real' race car to the circuit with the pre61, and racing both....marvellous. Tough luck if they both come to grief. Clearly this whole idea has got a lot of people thinking ,so I'm sure something will come of it....we just need some secure guidelines, no, more than guidelines, RULES.
I do want you all to remember that these will be primarily used at VINTAGE CLUB EVENTS, at least that is where the initial focus will be.
I guess there is a huge potential for the "mainstream" events to take them on board too.
In the UK they are known as "Oldies but Goldies" and run with the masters series.
Amco, in regard the Farina, it needs to be a Mark 1 with the shorter wheelbase as the Mk 2 was post 60. Lightening is within the same basic rule, what could and would have been done in the period. Personally I would be very disappointed to see bolted on perspex and portholes. If the windows appeared to be in the original tracks and the drivers' window opened as originally manufactured then that is OK.
Also remember in VCC there are NO PRIZES so running away in the front will have no benefit. If "all those old 50's cars are heavy" what is the problem? Every car has the same disadvantage? You don't HAVE to spend lots of money, sometimes that is just the personal ego making a person do it. If you are at the tail end battling with 4 others you probably have just as much fun (probably a lot more) than someone who is at the front running away with no-one else to play with?
I agree with the need for rules, I put the "guidelines" out for discussion, so where are the suggestions? Easy to pick holes, harder to offer thoughts??
Theres some!!
This Borgward thing worries me Bob. If they are as good as you say, and I dont doubt your word, cos you know what you are talking about, why did they just fizzle out so quickly in NZ. Funnily enough I have just managed to sell the MG TF1500 that I mentioned in another thread. It was left-hand drive and I had given up trying to sell it in NZ. I had been corresponding with a German guy about it, and this last weekend he came here on business, and after inspecting the car bought it on the spot. The interesting thing was that he owned....a Borgward Isabella Coupe, so remembering Bobs penchant for these things asked him a few leading questions as to the suitability or not of racing a Borgward. I think he was rather taken aback that someone would want to do such an appalling thing to such a fine classic car, so I'm no further ahead. He says there is a reasonable spares supply in Germany and some repro stuff and theoretically would be possible to get spares here, even though car production stopped in the early 60's, I think. Is a bit like Paul Radisich racing that dreadful Russian thing at Goodwood...a Zil was it......looked a bit like a 50's Studebaker. It went OK with Paul behind the wheel ,as you would expect, but the A105 still beat it into a cocked hat. Cant see any point in competing with something that hasn't got a chance of winning, even with a sympathetic handicapper. And dont tell me that race car drivers dont want to win....even us old fogeys enjoy a win or two, or we would stay at home and do our knitting.!!!!!!
Point taken, Oldfart, but this was your 'baby' so I think is up to you to draft some rules, and I'm sure there will lively discussion. Dont know whether you should model this class on something already happening in the UK but would probably be a start. This will be motor-RACING, not Classic Trialing so everyone will be thinking performance.....wont they? When I raced the MG 1100 in Classic racing in 1987, I got sick and tired of coming last in every race with just about everyone lapping me, and in the end just gave it away. Yes I had some 'dicing' with back-markers but I would sooner have been nearer the pointy end of the field.
Gerald I was only suggesting the Borgward as something I wanted to do one time ,but you have got to be sensible ,its only a fun thing and you don't want to go off on some spending spree for nothing other than your ego ,I think there are those amongst us that would perhaps want to do build up something different to satisy dreams or thoughts that never happened ,I think you have got to keep in mind you don't need to have something that you have to mortgage your house to own The Farina is sensible ,you will need to check on how big the engine would end up as from memory the 1098cc version didn't appear until late 1961 ,which might mean that with in the limit of the 1960 time frame around 1040 cc is as bid as you can go ,I guess one thing that is going to have to be stipulated is keeping it all period ,perhaps like retaining the original stroke for the model
Old Fart, cripes he could be anyone with a moniker like that!!, better not be Dave Slater..that would ruin my day...
Rules, I hate that term, guidelines, why dont you start with a post on what you would like, then we can quote your post & add our individual thoughts within that post, preferably by using a different colour on the text we type in on each topic.
Actually, there are no 'prizes' in ANY NZ motorsport that I can think of, certainly not monetary ones. Have been 'connected' to NZ V8's for some years now and the boys sometimes get a bottle of 'Chardon' for their efforts, or a chocolate fish!! And Jac Mac, good idea....once a few things are down on paper then the discussions will start. We seem to be just tossing it around at the moment to gauge the interest, and there seems to be no lack of that, and we can move forward from the 'guidelines' page. Too much WRC to concentrate on anything else!! And Jac Mac....dont think it is DS....he is otherwise engaged, I think. So rest easy.
Jacmac and Amco, go back to post #18. There are the initial thoughts for discussion! I am happy for you to add thoughts, however it is not solely my baby. The Waitemata branch of VCC has already had input. They will be run under VCC at their meetings (given sufficient cars) need to have VIC (vehicle Identity Card) no cost, need to have VCC race licence $35 odd for 3 years, these are set in stone. It would need discussion with Motorsport to comply with some of their rules, although there are some combined meetings where MS accept VCC cars. Personally I can't be bothered with some of Motorport requirements and particularly costs.
Totally agree about gearbox, same number of ratios as original, later box is Ok (in my opinion). A period car should reflect the period, WITH ALL ITS' COMPONENTS, any later major component of the core 5 (engine, body, chassis, transmission, suspension) makes the whole unit of the later period. There are some grounds, I believe to discuss this, electronic ignition is a case in point, I believe that if it looks like points and coil that's OK who wants a fleet of cars with burnt out points littering the circuit? An event I have competed in for the last number of years now has "classic" cars which are a body shell with late model components. They ain't classics.
Jacmac, last time I looked a "vette was not a saloon car! Neither is a Tbird is it? Fine line there, how did Ford market the aircraft carrier?
I don't even know who Dave Slater is! It sure ain't me. Amco I know, Jacmac no idea.
Lets keep this fun, that's what it's designed for.
Last edited by Oldfart; 09-20-2011 at 06:20 AM.
Now that is positive, thanks. When I was thinking coupes, my mind was thing like Renault Florides rather than Dauphine, or Alpines. Yes the Mercury, Chev etc is some what different.
Agree on your wheel thoughts, but I guess we don't want white spoke 8" wheels on a 100E! That will take some wording, input needed.
Steering wheels is "sort of", don't want current Momo types. Certainly agree on the steering wheels which were dodgy in the time 50+ years later they would be a disaster. Perhaps have to be within x mm of the original diameter?
OK, all this is great, and we are all pumped up with excitement imagining fields of 20/30/40 glorious old 40's/50's cars humming round Hampton Downs thrilling the crowds that will be flocking to the circuit to watch, and relive the glory days of NZ motorsport. BUT....where are all these potential race-cars going to come from? The American sedans of the 40's/50's have been snapped up by the Hot-Rod boys and are ineligible; those that haven't ,and the other makes, mostly English and French have been lovingly restored by VCC members and are driven gently on rallies and trials by careful Mom and Pop teams with their picnic baskets in the back. I cant think of any owners in our branch of the VCC who would put their machines through a tough race programme and expect to survive without major problems. Bob's idea of a Borgward is a case in point....first find your Borgward. Of course Bob may have a stash of them in his back shed, but I doubt it. We have a 'collector', read horder, here in Cambridge on a 10 acre block who does have a few rustyish examples of 50's, mostly English, saloons, but all of them require extensive bodywork to even get them safe, let alone in race condition. And of course he thinks they are all worth big money because they are so rare....well he's right about the rare, but not the big money, so they will sit in his shed slowly dissolving into the floor. Talking of floors, we will need decent mounting points for seatbelts, which were not fitted in the fifties, and with no chassis to hook into is going to be a problem with bodies not designed for seat-belt mounting. You see, when these things raced in the 50's, they were all 'current' models and used everyday on the road, so there was a good stockpile to call on. Someone has said we dont need to spend large amounts to get the cars race worthy, well I'm not so sure, and I can see dead cars littered around the track enveloped in clouds of steam and smoke, and that wont speed up the meeting after they have all been recovered. I was thinking that a Humber 80 might be a good machine to use but I couldnt tell you where I could find one. So, If anyone has a stash of cars ripe for turning into Classic racers, give me a call, because at the moment the cupboard is bare!!!!
Those thoughts have been nagging me overnight as well, I think we will find that 'competitors' would fall into three basic types,
1. Existing VCC members who already have a treasure trove of their favourite cars & have one or two examples that are never going to be concours winners, but would make worthwhile candidates for this type of race series & the drive to & from race meets plus having a spare road car makes it all feasible.
2. The guys/gals who have old cars with a view to selling in future as per your 10 acre example that might get their A into G with this and decide to compete or liquidate the assets..
3. Those older racers who are looking for a more fun & less expensive class to race in in the twilight years, these are the danger guys as coming from what are more $$ spending & must win series they dont take kindly to the re-education process, will probably pick what they consider to be a potential winner & just build it, regardless of $$ in order to compete, I dont see how we could or even if we should try to control that...to old to learn how to age gracefully
I had a scout around on ebay last night... 1959 studebaker Lark- 259 V8 US$ 900-00+ ( two cars ) in Illinois.. didnt one of those win one of the early Bathurst races?, 59 /60 Chev two doors, Fords Mercs, 1960 Falcon, yes I know all US stuff... I really think for euro & UK stuff the best bets are what is here now, there were a couple of 356 Porsches on T/Me not long ago, would they be eligible?
I can 'see' one of our Snr Citizens now, pulled over by one of NZ's finest patrol cars, explaining why he is driving home at night with numbers on the doors, race tape still on the headlights & period leather straps holding the bonnet shut
Last edited by Jac Mac; 09-20-2011 at 08:41 PM.
Just some opinions here Oldfart. You know what they say about opinions, they're like arseholes, everyone has one. So you can take or leave my opinions as you please.
Both Dale (Kiwiboss) and myself used to be involved in a muscle car racing class a few years ago. We have both long since left, but what we learned from our involvement has taught us a lot of lessons about what works and what doesn't when it comes to 'enthusiast' car racing. Despite best intentions, there will always be those who try to manoeuvre the direction of the class for personal gain, to the detriment of the class.
Here are some things we learned.
1. It should always be about the cars. The cars are the stars, not the people driving them. When you think this way, you'll remember why you're doing this.
2. Championships, points, race wins don't matter in historic/enthusiast car racing. Those who think they do should probably be racing in Formula Ford or something. To the punters paying to come watch, they don't care who wins races in classes like this. They are more interested in the cars themselves. In classes like this, the car that has the biggest crowd around it in the pits between races is more valuable than the car that wins the races.
3. This class has loads of potential. Just look at the number of comments its received already. That means, it'll be popular with punters, and that means it'll be popular with event promoters. And as soon as you begin appearing at high profile historic events, you'll start attracting the ego-maniacs, who want to demonstrate their driving talents in front of a big crowd, at the expense of your class. So, long before you ever have your first race, make sure your rules are bullet proof. As Gerald has said above in an earlier post, these are really important. When you have strict rules, YOU always stay in control of your class. It sounds over the top to have strict rules in historic racing, but I promise when you're racing at high profile events and the ego-maniacs have jumped onboard, you'll be glad you took the time to write the rules properly.
Anyway, judging by your comments throughout this thread, I reckon you already know most of this stuff anyway. Dale and I have formed a new historic muscle car class and these are the principles we have built the class around. Enthusiasts having fun with old cars. Thats what its all about. But you have to protect your creation as well.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote