Going Even Older!!!

**Jac Mac** · 09-20-2011, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by Oldfart

Thoughts for Vintage Racing Saloons.

The following is some thoughts for debating so that a set of “Guidelines” could be put in place so that potential participants are aware of the “spirit” which others take part under.
It is NOT my intention to state what these must be, but I feel very strongly that a framework should be in place before problems arise.
In order to start discussion I have penned some thoughts, please feel free to discuss, add, delete or amend. In this way I think that a robust and fun class could be in place in a short time.

Cars.
The car to be a production saloon which was in production prior to December 31 1960. Onus of proof of this rests with the owner. Variants of saloon, ie staion wagon are acceptable, sports version (non saloon) are not. Cabriolet and coupe ??Being totally biased you should probably allow coupes..Sidevalve Fords & Chevs obviously feature in other parts of this website.
Body modifications, ie chop tops, channeling, tail chops etc are specifically banned. The car shall have a full complement of seats as sold, although the drivers’ seat may be replaced with an alternate with better support. Current “wing” seats are discouraged.All fine by me
Bumpers shall be in place.
Hubcaps are not required.
All lights should be in place, headlights taped (as was done and required in period).These must be in working condition.
External trim strips, ie chrome etc. PLEASE DISCUSS, my personal feeling is they should not be compulsory, as in period they were often asked to be removed for safety, also an item that may be difficult and expensive to find.
Floor mats/carpets, I do not think they should be required, but if removed the floorpan should be a subtle colour so it is not too obvious.All good
Steering wheel should be of the period.Same dia or within say a couple of inch's, dont like the thought of being skewered by some of those early pommie multi wire things
Instruments must be period, ie no digital, shift lights etc.Good, less is more
Roll over protection. A thorny one. I suspect there are varied views on this. Up to the individual?Id rather have a roll bar, but in saying that I wouldnt want to have to make it conform to current MSNZ rules, common sense should prevail on this one

Engine
To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion. Ie one off engine transplant is not acceptable, but where this was not uncommon would be allowed. Onus of proof as above.Agreed
Modifications to the engine.
Only modifications which could have and were been done in the period (pre Dec 60) are acceptable. This one is a can of worms, but should be, I believe the basis of the “rule”.Yes, no carbs for example that were not made prior to 1960,

Suspension
Shall remain in the same form as when sold new. If the car was fitted with lever arm shocks, they must remain as the only form of shock. Likewise lever arms which form suspension arms. Cars may be lowered by no more than 50mm. Springs may be modified in stiffness, number of leaves etc. Axle location should remain the same as original, but additional members may be added, ie panhard rods, Watts linkages, tramp bars, as long as the primary location remains. Test of this to be detach one end of any rod and the car remains suspended. Alternate on lowering, to be road legal.I would go with the road legal ride height, has to be able to clear a 100mm block with anything other than exhaust.

Brakes
Must remain in the same form as originally sold. Ie if sold with drum brakes, no conversion to discs is allowed. Brake scoops, ventilated back plates, Alfin type drums are allowed. Brake lining material is free. Conversion from rod or cable to hydraulic is acceptable. A secondary form of braking is recommended, even if it is only handbrake.Good

Wheels
Must be of a size which could have been fitted in the period. This automatically means that widened wheels are not acceptable as this process was not in place until later in the 60s. Alternate wheels, eg van versions, 13” rims on original centres, Vauxhall wheels on Ford 10, wheels from a later version (pre 60) are acceptable Not totally with this, there are many steel wheels that had a habit of breaking out centers etc & those wheels were upgraded in later versions of cars...take my T-Bird example, A ~1970 Falcon Ute rim will interchange-look the same- but center is made from steel damn near twice as thick
Tyres
Must be of no lower profile than 65 series, road tyres. Ie no race or semi race tyres are allowed. They should be available readily without specialist suppliers.I just wish we could still get crossplies

Presentation
The car should be presented to a reasonable standard. The spectator should be able to expect to see cars of reasonable standard, no primer, dents etc unless sustained at the same meeting, although contact between cars would result in questions being asked of both parties. If the damage is behind the driver of one car & in front of the driver on another in an incident & the car with frontal damage was at rear prior to prang then its his fault

EXTRA
It has been suggested that a car having been allowed at one meeting does not, as of right, qualify for any other. Additional restrictions may become needed as the use of these cars becomes more common. All modifications should be reversible without disagreement, discussion is fine, argument is not!Sounds good.

Now here you go for something to move forward. Please do not accept the UK rules, they allow way too much, ie 1275cc in 58 cars etc.

I am thrilled with the enthusiasm!

Thats one!

**bob homewood** · 09-20-2011, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by AMCO72

This Borgward thing worries me Bob. If they are as good as you say, and I dont doubt your word, cos you know what you are talking about, why did they just fizzle out so quickly in NZ. Funnily enough I have just managed to sell the MG TF1500 that I mentioned in another thread. It was left-hand drive and I had given up trying to sell it in NZ. I had been corresponding with a German guy about it, and this last weekend he came here on business, and after inspecting the car bought it on the spot. The interesting thing was that he owned....a Borgward Isabella Coupe, so remembering Bobs penchant for these things asked him a few leading questions as to the suitability or not of racing a Borgward. I think he was rather taken aback that someone would want to do such an appalling thing to such a fine classic car, so I'm no further ahead. He says there is a reasonable spares supply in Germany and some repro stuff and theoretically would be possible to get spares here, even though car production stopped in the early 60's, I think. Is a bit like Paul Radisich racing that dreadful Russian thing at Goodwood...a Zil was it......looked a bit like a 50's Studebaker. It went OK with Paul behind the wheel ,as you would expect, but the A105 still beat it into a cocked hat. Cant see any point in competing with something that hasn't got a chance of winning, even with a sympathetic handicapper. And dont tell me that race car drivers dont want to win....even us old fogeys enjoy a win or two, or we would stay at home and do our knitting.!!!!!!

Gerald I was only suggesting the Borgward as something I wanted to do one time ,but you have got to be sensible ,its only a fun thing and you don't want to go off on some spending spree for nothing other than your ego ,I think there are those amongst us that would perhaps want to do build up something different to satisy dreams or thoughts that never happened ,I think you have got to keep in mind you don't need to have something that you have to mortgage your house to own The Farina is sensible ,you will need to check on how big the engine would end up as from memory the 1098cc version didn't appear until late 1961 ,which might mean that with in the limit of the 1960 time frame around 1040 cc is as bid as you can go ,I guess one thing that is going to have to be stipulated is keeping it all period ,perhaps like retaining the original stroke for the model

**Oldfart** · 09-20-2011, 06:41 AM

Now that is positive, thanks. When I was thinking coupes, my mind was thing like Renault Florides rather than Dauphine, or Alpines. Yes the Mercury, Chev etc is some what different.
Agree on your wheel thoughts, but I guess we don't want white spoke 8" wheels on a 100E! That will take some wording, input needed.
Steering wheels is "sort of", don't want current Momo types. Certainly agree on the steering wheels which were dodgy in the time 50+ years later they would be a disaster. Perhaps have to be within x mm of the original diameter?

**AMCO72** · 09-20-2011, 07:48 PM

OK, all this is great, and we are all pumped up with excitement imagining fields of 20/30/40 glorious old 40's/50's cars humming round Hampton Downs thrilling the crowds that will be flocking to the circuit to watch, and relive the glory days of NZ motorsport. BUT....where are all these potential race-cars going to come from? The American sedans of the 40's/50's have been snapped up by the Hot-Rod boys and are ineligible; those that haven't ,and the other makes, mostly English and French have been lovingly restored by VCC members and are driven gently on rallies and trials by careful Mom and Pop teams with their picnic baskets in the back. I cant think of any owners in our branch of the VCC who would put their machines through a tough race programme and expect to survive without major problems. Bob's idea of a Borgward is a case in point....first find your Borgward. Of course Bob may have a stash of them in his back shed, but I doubt it. We have a 'collector', read horder, here in Cambridge on a 10 acre block who does have a few rustyish examples of 50's, mostly English, saloons, but all of them require extensive bodywork to even get them safe, let alone in race condition. And of course he thinks they are all worth big money because they are so rare....well he's right about the rare, but not the big money, so they will sit in his shed slowly dissolving into the floor. Talking of floors, we will need decent mounting points for seatbelts, which were not fitted in the fifties, and with no chassis to hook into is going to be a problem with bodies not designed for seat-belt mounting. You see, when these things raced in the 50's, they were all 'current' models and used everyday on the road, so there was a good stockpile to call on. Someone has said we dont need to spend large amounts to get the cars race worthy, well I'm not so sure, and I can see dead cars littered around the track enveloped in clouds of steam and smoke, and that wont speed up the meeting after they have all been recovered. I was thinking that a Humber 80 might be a good machine to use but I couldnt tell you where I could find one. So, If anyone has a stash of cars ripe for turning into Classic racers, give me a call, because at the moment the cupboard is bare!!!!

**Jac Mac** · 09-20-2011, 08:23 PM

Those thoughts have been nagging me overnight as well, I think we will find that 'competitors' would fall into three basic types,

1. Existing VCC members who already have a treasure trove of their favourite cars & have one or two examples that are never going to be concours winners, but would make worthwhile candidates for this type of race series & the drive to & from race meets plus having a spare road car makes it all feasible.

2. The guys/gals who have old cars with a view to selling in future as per your 10 acre example that might get their A into G with this and decide to compete or liquidate the assets..

3. Those older racers who are looking for a more fun & less expensive class to race in in the twilight years, these are the danger guys as coming from what are more $$ spending & must win series they dont take kindly to the re-education process, will probably pick what they consider to be a potential winner & just build it, regardless of $$ in order to compete, I dont see how we could or even if we should try to control that...to old to learn how to age gracefully

I had a scout around on ebay last night... 1959 studebaker Lark- 259 V8 US$ 900-00+ ( two cars ) in Illinois.. didnt one of those win one of the early Bathurst races?, 59 /60 Chev two doors, Fords Mercs, 1960 Falcon, yes I know all US stuff... I really think for euro & UK stuff the best bets are what is here now, there were a couple of 356 Porsches on T/Me not long ago, would they be eligible?

I can 'see' one of our Snr Citizens now, pulled over by one of NZ's finest patrol cars, explaining why he is driving home at night with numbers on the doors, race tape still on the headlights & period leather straps holding the bonnet shut

**Steve Holmes** · 09-20-2011, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Oldfart

Thoughts for Vintage Racing Saloons.

The following is some thoughts for debating so that a set of “Guidelines” could be put in place so that potential participants are aware of the “spirit” which others take part under.
It is NOT my intention to state what these must be, but I feel very strongly that a framework should be in place before problems arise.
In order to start discussion I have penned some thoughts, please feel free to discuss, add, delete or amend. In this way I think that a robust and fun class could be in place in a short time.

Cars.
The car to be a production saloon which was in production prior to December 31 1960. Onus of proof of this rests with the owner. Variants of saloon, ie staion wagon are acceptable, sports version (non saloon) are not. Cabriolet and coupe ??
Body modifications, ie chop tops, channeling, tail chops etc are specifically banned. The car shall have a full complement of seats as sold, although the drivers’ seat may be replaced with an alternate with better support. Current “wing” seats are discouraged.
Bumpers shall be in place.
Hubcaps are not required.
All lights should be in place, headlights taped (as was done and required in period).These must be in working condition.
External trim strips, ie chrome etc. PLEASE DISCUSS, my personal feeling is they should not be compulsory, as in period they were often asked to be removed for safety, also an item that may be difficult and expensive to find.
Floor mats/carpets, I do not think they should be required, but if removed the floorpan should be a subtle colour so it is not too obvious.
Steering wheel should be of the period.
Instruments must be period, ie no digital, shift lights etc.
Roll over protection. A thorny one. I suspect there are varied views on this. Up to the individual?

Engine
To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion. Ie one off engine transplant is not acceptable, but where this was not uncommon would be allowed. Onus of proof as above.
Modifications to the engine.
Only modifications which could have and were been done in the period (pre Dec 60) are acceptable. This one is a can of worms, but should be, I believe the basis of the “rule”.

Suspension
Shall remain in the same form as when sold new. If the car was fitted with lever arm shocks, they must remain as the only form of shock. Likewise lever arms which form suspension arms. Cars may be lowered by no more than 50mm. Springs may be modified in stiffness, number of leaves etc. Axle location should remain the same as original, but additional members may be added, ie panhard rods, Watts linkages, tramp bars, as long as the primary location remains. Test of this to be detach one end of any rod and the car remains suspended. Alternate on lowering, to be road legal.

Brakes
Must remain in the same form as originally sold. Ie if sold with drum brakes, no conversion to discs is allowed. Brake scoops, ventilated back plates, Alfin type drums are allowed. Brake lining material is free. Conversion from rod or cable to hydraulic is acceptable. A secondary form of braking is recommended, even if it is only handbrake.

Wheels
Must be of a size which could have been fitted in the period. This automatically means that widened wheels are not acceptable as this process was not in place until later in the 60s. Alternate wheels, eg van versions, 13” rims on original centres, Vauxhall wheels on Ford 10, wheels from a later version (pre 60) are acceptable
Tyres
Must be of no lower profile than 65 series, road tyres. Ie no race or semi race tyres are allowed. They should be available readily without specialist suppliers.

Presentation
The car should be presented to a reasonable standard. The spectator should be able to expect to see cars of reasonable standard, no primer, dents etc unless sustained at the same meeting, although contact between cars would result in questions being asked of both parties.

EXTRA
It has been suggested that a car having been allowed at one meeting does not, as of right, qualify for any other. Additional restrictions may become needed as the use of these cars becomes more common. All modifications should be reversible without disagreement, discussion is fine, argument is not!

Now here you go for something to move forward. Please do not accept the UK rules, they allow way too much, ie 1275cc in 58 cars etc.

I am thrilled with the enthusiasm!

Just out of interest, you've got written: "Engine. To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion". Small block Chev V8s (called Corvette engines in the period) were popular transplants into pre-war American coupes. Is this considered "a common conversion"?

**Steve Holmes** · 09-20-2011, 09:39 PM

Just some opinions here Oldfart. You know what they say about opinions, they're like arseholes, everyone has one. So you can take or leave my opinions as you please.

Both Dale (Kiwiboss) and myself used to be involved in a muscle car racing class a few years ago. We have both long since left, but what we learned from our involvement has taught us a lot of lessons about what works and what doesn't when it comes to 'enthusiast' car racing. Despite best intentions, there will always be those who try to manoeuvre the direction of the class for personal gain, to the detriment of the class.

Here are some things we learned.

1. It should always be about the cars. The cars are the stars, not the people driving them. When you think this way, you'll remember why you're doing this.

2. Championships, points, race wins don't matter in historic/enthusiast car racing. Those who think they do should probably be racing in Formula Ford or something. To the punters paying to come watch, they don't care who wins races in classes like this. They are more interested in the cars themselves. In classes like this, the car that has the biggest crowd around it in the pits between races is more valuable than the car that wins the races.

3. This class has loads of potential. Just look at the number of comments its received already. That means, it'll be popular with punters, and that means it'll be popular with event promoters. And as soon as you begin appearing at high profile historic events, you'll start attracting the ego-maniacs, who want to demonstrate their driving talents in front of a big crowd, at the expense of your class. So, long before you ever have your first race, make sure your rules are bullet proof. As Gerald has said above in an earlier post, these are really important. When you have strict rules, YOU always stay in control of your class. It sounds over the top to have strict rules in historic racing, but I promise when you're racing at high profile events and the ego-maniacs have jumped onboard, you'll be glad you took the time to write the rules properly.

Anyway, judging by your comments throughout this thread, I reckon you already know most of this stuff anyway. Dale and I have formed a new historic muscle car class and these are the principles we have built the class around. Enthusiasts having fun with old cars. Thats what its all about. But you have to protect your creation as well.

**AMCO72** · 09-20-2011, 10:45 PM

Thank you Steve.....bang on!!!!!!

**Steve Holmes** · 09-20-2011, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by bry3500

Nice idea guys..I'm imagining a field of cars something akin to the Goodwood revival St Marys Trophy race, Saloons between 1950 and 1959..must be a few of those old Brit cars still lurking around over there in kiwiland

This is great! Is the large orange thing a Tatra?

**Steve Holmes** · 09-20-2011, 11:50 PM

**GeebeeNZ** · 09-21-2011, 06:45 AM

Thanks Steve. Yes the cars are out there at a reasonable price. This era gives a wide variation of makes. The PA Vaux is a proven performer on the track and the Zephyr would be good if it wasnt an auto. Shame the Jags are 2.4s. And how about a Vanguard you could tune to racing TR2 Specs. There have been some very quick A35s and A40 Farinas in the past and we musnt forget the late Harold Heasley in his Consul and Paul Fahey in his VW. Finding a pre 1960 Fiat 500 would be hard as the owner of the one advertised is a bit unsure of the age. They have raced before but may be a bit slow in this company. Roll on Hampton Downs 14th April

**bob homewood** · 09-21-2011, 08:13 AM

I'm going to risk getting shot here by Gerald but both the VW and the Fiat 500 could be made to go a lot faster than was ever intended .The Fiat 500 with a couple of o/size barrels ,a bit of head work,cam and a bigger carb ,would actually respond quite well ,Nardi used to do a 650 cc conversion for them ,perhaps Abarth might have done it as well ,don't know how long the rear drive couplings would last if you had to keep them as standard under the rules.The VW now that could be another can of worms depending on how you police the age etc of the allowed engine components ,all worth thinking about though

**GeebeeNZ** · 09-21-2011, 11:06 AM

Thats got me thinking Bob. I have a Nardi 650cc engine in the garage. It is on a 500D crankcase 1960 to 1965 Has the VW barrels etc and a Dellorto FZD on it. All I need is 1960 or older 500D. Also have the Abarth 695SS sitting there waiting for a new floor. Has all the bits and a factory top speed of 88mph but the car is 1967 and ineligible in this class.

**bob homewood** · 09-21-2011, 11:27 AM

I can remember driving one with the VW barrels etc ,sounds similar spec to what you are talking about it went pretty well ,would make a modified 1000 mini earn its keep ,lower her down with a bit wider tyre contact ,it might surprise a few people and with a good exhaust it will sound like a big twin !

**GeebeeNZ** · 09-21-2011, 11:52 AM

Thats it Bob I could run the 5 inch wide 10 inch Campagnolos off the Abarth and with the right exhaust sounds like a Ducatti on full song.

**Ellis** · 09-21-2011, 12:32 PM

I think Oz Cams Historic Group Na rules seem to cover most of the points being discussed.
It may be worth a read for some ideas from the online handbook.

http://www.camsmanual.com.au/08_historic.asp

**Oldfart** · 09-21-2011, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ellis

I think Oz Cams Historic Group Na rules seem to cover most of the points being discussed.
It may be worth a read for some ideas from the online handbook.

http://www.camsmanual.com.au/08_historic.asp

Quick looks close, I have some issues but close!

**AMCO72** · 09-21-2011, 08:14 PM

See, I told you.......performance, performance, performance!!!!!!!sounding like a Ducatti....would give a Mini run for its money...sounds like a big twin......could tune it to TR 2 race tune..... Yeh Right.........this is NOT going to be a lot of old fogeys driving around in their 'standard' Standards. Oldfart....you are going to have to rein-in these guys before it's too late. But thats the thing......all us fellas on here are RACERS....as Stirling Moss said...he likes to RACE. We want to push the boundaries. Clever guys like Bob aren't going to tootle around in some stupid little standard Fiat....and why would he. He might bring a smile to crowds watching, but the handicapper is going to have to give him 4 laps start ,or the sun will be setting when he finishes. The performance difference of some of these potential racers is huge.....Jag v's Fiat 500.....mmmmmm. This is why we are going to need RULES. I remember very well the meeting at Taupo in the late 80's when one competitor arrived with a very modified car. The bodywork looked standard, a few light panels, but my goodness underneath was something else. He of course blew us all into the weeds and there was nothing to say he couldn't do what he did, other than sticking to the 'spirit of the class'. Well that was about as useless as tits on a bull!!! Then wouldn't you know it, next meeting a couple more competitors had joined him, and that was it...all over. That car is still racing today, although now it is 'only' average, but back then it was what we all aspired to. This first year is going to be critical...the standard set now will set the tone for the future. Even if there are only 10 genuine cars on the track it will be worth it. Incidentally, I was hoping to get a car sitting on the grid for $10,000, but clearly that is not going to happen. And Bob, the only reason I rark you up is because I know you can take it, AND I know who you are, which is not the case with some of these other fellas.....dont know who I'm taking on, though I can usually hold my own in a war of words. Also Bob, please stick with your original choice...the Borgward....although you are a little guy, I cant see you behind the wheel of a little Fiat!!!!

**Jac Mac** · 09-21-2011, 10:06 PM

$10000.00 !!!, I assume your not counting your own hours in that, just the actual parts & outwork that you 'would' have to get done by someone else either because you did not have the equipment or the 'Rules' state you couldnt. On a similar basis I guessed around $15000.00+ for the cars I had in mind.. T-Bird, Customline, Studebaker Lark( Yes the T-Bird would add about $10.000/12000.00 to that figure for the donor car- I know I know, but there would be a spin-off benefit in that for me... mind you if we were building & getting paid for that part by someone else I dont think there would be much change out of $40/50k.

RULES, yes as per steves post above you got to set them in concrete from day one..

**kiwi285** · 09-21-2011, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Steve Holmes

What a fantastic collection of old cars. To see some of those out on track racing again would be special. I for one would be along there just to see them running in anger. I certainly wouldn't care who won the event - THE CARS ARE THE STARS.

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