Going Even Older!!!

[Jac Mac]

There is an over riding rule that many series have , [[ If it does not say you can do it, then you cannot ]] , It is/was in the HQ series & as tech officers it was very easy to apply to anything we found that was not otherwise covered by the rules, if you dont have something along those lines you end up writing rules for rules. For example if you were state that the original shocks must remain in place, but could be supplemented by the fitting of extra shocks then you open the door to a set of Penske or similar being added, write it so that shocks from pre 1960 can be added its better, write it so that we have to use the originals only, but can modify them as per Bobs example would be quite sensible as that is what we would have done 'in period'.... or have we all forgotten how... or do you not want to get your hands dirty

[bob homewood]

Lever shock replacement ,this might provide a bit of thought regarding the lever shock replacement ,this one is for a Healey Sprite ,but is identical to what you would use on a A35 or A40 .The ones we used to make were more basic in the top arm design ,just a pair of shaped steel plates,with a tube for the bushes at each end and a reinforcement in the centre,it would still be more cost effective and better than trying to rebuild the levers in my opinion,ignore the brake set up in this photo I am not suggesting that

[bob homewood]

Another view of the concept ,this one appears to show a more basic top arm variation,more like what we used to make

[Oldfart]

Please guys, I am very flattered by the attention this is getting from such credible and notable names. As the last week has progressed I believe all of us are coming closer to be on the same page, and the very sensible suggestions are most gratefully received.
I do believe that by putting this out for contributions we will end up with a much more "robust" rule than not having done so.
I guess it's getting close to the time where I solicit a list of people who wish to be involved at some level. All that remains is to think of a good way without opening the floodgates to a whole lot os spam emails!
Over the next few days I will make amendments to the "guidelines and repost for further thoughts.
JacMac, I do like the "if it is not on the list" idea.

[Oldfart]

Thanks for the input. Here is version 2!

Thoughts for Vintage Racing Saloons.

Below is an amended set of guidelines based on submissions from a number of interested people. This is still a “work in progress”
The intention for this class is to operate within the Vintage Car Club of NZ rules, and is intended as an outlet for members of that club to participate in friendly rivalry with a like -minded group of people. It is NOT intended as an out and out racing class. If a potential entrant is unsure of what is allowed they are encouraged to contact the group who will then make a considered decision. Loophole hunting is heavily discouraged. Any entrant who does not like the rules is encouraged to find another outlet for their endeavours.
Cars.
If the rules do not specifically allow a modification, then it is not allowed
All major components must be made from the same material as originally fitted to the car portrayed. Ie Cast iron blocks, cylinder heads, gearbox case, differential housing, body panels, may not be changed for a lighter material..
The car to be a production saloon which was in production prior to December 31 1960. Onus of proof of this rests with the owner. Variants of saloon, ie staion wagon are acceptable, sports version (non saloon) are not.
Body modifications, ie chop tops, channeling, tail chops etc are specifically banned. The car shall have a full complement of seats as sold, although the drivers’ seat may be replaced with an alternate with better support. Current “wing” seats are discouraged. Should the car have originally have been fitted with a “bench” seat this can be replaced, a front passenger seat shall be fitted.
Bumpers shall be in place.
Hubcaps are not required.
All lights should be in place, headlights taped (as was done and required in period).These must be in working condition.
External trim strips, ie chrome etc. PLEASE DISCUSS, my personal feeling is they should not be compulsory, as in period they were often asked to be removed for safety, also an item that may be difficult and expensive to find.
Floor mats/carpets, if removed the floorpan should be a subtle colour so it is not too obvious.
Steering wheel should be of the period. This is taken to mean that a steering wheel of a diameter not smaller than 50mm smaller than that originally fitted shall be used. Wire spoke wheels are heavily discouraged, rims shall be in sound condition, woodrim wheels must be those constructed with a continuous metal re-inforcement .
Instruments must be period, ie no digital, shift lights etc. Additional instruments may be fitted but must comply with the preceding statement
Windows may be replaced with alternate material, however the fitting of these should appear to be of the original manner. Specifically, bolted on lightweight materials are not allowed, nor are “driver porthole” type windows. The windows shall be in original tracks and at least the drivers’ window shall open in the original manner.
Roll over protection. May be fitted if desired. The design should not be such that reinforcement of the structure is a design criteria.

Engine
To be a version of the engine supplied with the car as sold new, or a common conversion. Ie one off engine transplant is not acceptable, but where this was not uncommon would be allowed. Onus of proof as above.
Modifications to the engine.
Only modifications which could have and were been done in the period (pre Dec 60) are acceptable. Ignition systems should appear to be of the type originally fitted.
Specifically electronic systems are allowed, but must be of the type installed primarily inside the distributor. Management systems are specifically disallowed.
Carburettors shall be of a type available in the period of the car.


Suspension
Suspension systems may be modified. Springs shall be of the type originally fitted. Ie torsion bars, coil springs or leaf springs must stay as the sole form of springing The rate, length, thickness, may be altered but the original attachment points must be used. Cars may be lowered to road legal limits.
Shock absorbers may be added, replaced with an alternate form, however onus of proof of the availability of the unit used being available in the pre- 1961 period rests with the entrant. Externally adjustable shock absorbers, and adjustable spring platforms are specifically disallowed.
Axle location should remain the same as original, but additional members may be added, ie panhard rods, Watts linkages, tramp bars, as long as the primary location remains. Test of this to be detach one end of any rod and the car remains suspended..

Brakes
Must remain in the same form as originally sold. Ie if sold with drum brakes, no conversion to discs is allowed. Brake scoops, ventilated back plates, Alfin type drums are allowed. Brake lining material is free. Conversion from rod or cable to hydraulic is acceptable. A secondary form of braking is recommended, even if it is only handbrake.

Wheels
Must be of a size which could have been fitted in the period. This automatically means that widened wheels are not acceptable as this process was not in place until later in the 60s. Alternate wheels, eg van versions, 13” rims on original centres, Vauxhall wheels on Ford 10, wheels from a later version (pre 60) are acceptable Any wheel which is known to be of a suspect standard may be replaced, as long as the diameter and width is respected. Appearance of the wheel must be of a period type.
Tyres
Must be of no lower profile than 65 series, road tyres. Ie no race or semi race tyres are allowed. They should be available readily without specialist suppliers.

Presentation
The car should be presented to a reasonable standard. The spectator should be able to expect to see cars of reasonable standard, no primer, dents etc unless sustained at the same meeting, although contact between cars would result in questions being asked of both parties.

EXTRA
It has been suggested that a car having been allowed at one meeting does not, as of right, qualify for any other. Additional restrictions may become needed as the use of these cars becomes more common. All modifications should be reversible without disagreement, discussion is fine, argument is not!

[Jac Mac]

Couple of other things have been raised in talking about this possible series.
1. At moment you have proposed a 1960 cutoff, is that 31/12/1960 or 1/1/1960.
2. Those Aussie regs used 1958 as a cut-off, might that be a better option if you ever got to the point of inter tasman challenge- just food for thought.
3. Where you have a car model whose time frame extends beyond your cutoff date could such later cars be eligible as long as they conform with cutoff specification..examples 1960 cutoff, both mini & 105e anglia were in production & continued in 1960 formatt til around 1965 in the anglias case anyway, with diminished stocks of suitable donors should later stamped body shells be allowed, Gerald has pointed out the later Farina A40 had a w/base increase so obviously thats out. Lots of other candidates that fit in the same problem area, simca. renault/ skoda etc.

[Oldfart]

Hi JacMac, the rule of Dec 31 1960 is a vintage car club date. Most countries have specifically disallowed the Mini and 105e.
The advice from the speed steward is that later versions (continuation models) are on a case by case basis. Perhaps an earlier date would be a wise thought. We will toss this around. Perhaps people should be thinking of the earlier cars rather than trying to get the latest possible car? My own one is likely to be a 1956,(if I can get the rust issues sorted) even though a 1960 would be much easier!

[bob homewood]

I have got a few photos ,articles etc I have collected over the years which apertain to this older era stuff we are talking about here ,I thought I might post it in this thread ,if you think it should be in a thread of its own let me know and I will do so before I post anymore ,they might be of interest and create a bit of conversation
This photo shows how it is possible to modify the Peugot Cylinder head,to give you four inlet ports ,inserting some tubes and epoxing them in place

[Oldfart]

That is wonderful, especially seeing as the car parked outside my garage is a 203! Only issue is that the panel beater/welder I had round earlier today reckons it would cost "many thousands" to become OK! The word of the day is "Oh F*&^"

[bob homewood]

The 203 is a bit like the Borgward ,something I would have liked to have done ,mainly I guess to satisfy my mechanical curiosity.thats the only down side of what we are trying to do ,to find something that is not eaten away by the ravishes of time,guess I am lucky in some ways because a lot of it I can do myself ,but I am being sensible about it as I have heap of other things happening in my life as well

[Oldfart]

A thought has been raised, what sort of "testing" needs to be done to establish that corrosion and braking systems are of a suitable standard?
In the "good old days" scrutineering would have picked this up, now there is not really scrutineering, just a check that the self check item audit takes place.
Run it through a WOF check even if it's not going on the road?

[thunder427]

....OK,latest toy is a 1957 Morris Minor,2door,MGB (Worked!)5speed Celica box,Morris Marina rear end,Disc brake conversion front end,low as shark shit!!pretend 'Minilites 2007 Alfa seats...registered....Fast and Furious !!!!!!!.......have we thought of an 'open section' for people like myself and Paul Kirk........regards thunder427/MJ

[Oldfart]

Simple answer, yes we have thought of such cars, took about 2 seconds, find another place to play!
Cars like this would kill it all before they got as far as the grid.
Neat car, but NOT what is wanted.

[Jac Mac]

If your going to allow mods like the peugeot with epoxied inlet runners above you might as well forget it, how long before someone drills new inlet ports in a siamese inlet head to make it flow better with downdraft carbs etc & they start getting real improvements in power, what next, a Skoda with all the sleeves bored offset & an 8 port head, would go like a cracker.

[AMCO72]

Thunder427.......you and I have done a bit of sparing on this forum so we KNOW where we are coming from, but your latest outburst can't go unchallenged. I am amazed that you should suggest such a stupid and frivolous thing as to try to get a MODIFIED Morris Minor as you indicated, into this new class of racing. If Oldfart IS an old fart, then you are in danger of sending him over the edge....he could well have had a heart-attack already for all I know. Of course we dont know whether Oldfart, is in fact old, because most of us dont know WHO he is. I didnt even challenge you when you accused me of calling my Mother 'an old bitch'!!!!! But this is going too far. I demand that you extend an immediate apology to Oldfart, and refrain from such hurtful and damaging remarks in the future. Failure to do so will result in my canceling my subscription to 'roaringseason'. If you weren't so far away I would I would send my whanau brothers around to give you a hiding!!!!!!!!! lol.

[pallmall]

This thread is extremely interesting, and I for one cannot wait for the next Roycroft meet to see what eventuates.

On the other hand, I think some of the posts on here really belong in Yards and Yarns!

[bob homewood]

Yep the Pug head info was definately pre 60 ,it was offered more out of interest than anything else ,SU carbs yep still got a bit of a soft spot for them ,and you can do some interesting things with them ,I wouldnt write them out of my future if I decide to do something ,Now heres something to rock the boat ,and the car came out in 1959,sorry the photo is so old and crinkled ,but I have been drooling over it for around fifty years ,Thunder will know what it is,its probably on his Lotto wish list as well

[GeebeeNZ]

I enjoyed Geralds comments "this how we used to do it in the 50's. Find some old 'pile-of-pus' and jamb a big motor in and go racing?". In the 1960s when they used to scrutineer cars at the Auckland testing station the night before an event I remember a certain Austin A35. Top Lynndale Athletic club runner and Auckland Car Club member Eddie Rompleberg and his mates had shoehorned a Zephyr motor into an A35 and were negotiating with the Scrutineers to try and get it passed. I think the paint was still wet on it. Whether it was allowed to run or not I never found out. For some reason I have never forgotten the horrid looking thing but thats what blokes did to go racing.

[bob homewood]

I enjoyed Geralds comments "this how we used to do it in the 50's. Find some old 'pile-of-pus' and jamb a big motor in and go racing?". In the 1960s when they used to scrutineer cars at the Auckland testing station the night before an event I remember a certain Austin A35. Top Lynndale Athletic club runner and Auckland Car Club member Eddie Rompleberg and his mates had shoehorned a Zephyr motor into an A35 and were negotiating with the Scrutineers to try and get it passed. I think the paint was still wet on it. Whether it was allowed to run or not I never found out. For some reason I have never forgotten the horrid looking thing but thats what blokes did to go racing.

Yes I remember that one , I have told a couple of people about it and they didn't believe me I am not sure ,But I have a funny idea I might have seen it at a Sprint after that and it rings a bell that it tore the rear spring hanger out of the rusty chassis rail,I am not sure if it was the same car for certain as I was too busy to pay a lot of attention to it

[GeebeeNZ]

I may be odd but in a Regularity field at Eastern Creek last October that included an Alfa Tipo C 8C, 250F Maserati, Old Yella, a Mallock and a number of English Sports Cars it was the Simca Aronde that fascinated me. According to the sign on the side it is running under Category Na but note the negative camber and modern sticky road tyres.