Doyle/Dickie Fastback Anglia Corvette

[AMCO72]

But surely Roger, this is the whole point....the OLD Custaxie doesn't exist, presumably, so the new one can be called what it was called in period, and who better to do a retro version of the car than the guy who built it originally!!! Apparently there were people considering building a retro version of the Anglia, however that will now all stop as the real car, or parts thereof, have now come to light. Anyway I think it is all rather petty, and I still want to know exactly WHAT is different on the NEW Custaxie because it LOOKS like the old car. I take you back to my earlier comments on 'continuous development'. If the car HAD kept racing it would have undoubtably been IMPROVED and finished up something like it is now. I have to wonder whether some small-minded steerer [stirer] has protested at this CUSTAXIE-ish version. Also I can't see the point of building problems BACK into a car that would have been rectified anyway for the next season. Is Robbie considering UNimproving the Custaxie so it conforms to these rather odd rules, so he can race again, if not, it was a rather expensive exercise for one classic season......a bit like the original.

[AMCO72]

And more....... when the Custaxie first appeared at the Bruce McLaren festival, it received banner headlines in all sorts of publications and was greeted at the track with happiness and joy.....everyone wanted to see it.....EXCEPT for one team....apparently. The owner/driver of a very expensive and exotic Ferrari from the 'Goodwood brigade', had grave misgivings about close racing with the Custaxie and one or two others, fearing these drivers might T-bone their precious car in the enthusiasm of putting on a show for the public. In fact it was a Humber 80 that T-boned the Custaxie, which didn't please Robbie very much!!!!! The poor Humber 80 driver was mortified that he had done such a thing to the STAR of the show. The specification of the new Custaxie would have been known to the organisers and scrutineers, and if anything was amiss should have been dealt with there and then. Of course that would have created a big fuss, especially after all the publicity, and that would never do. We could perhaps call the car.... CUSTAXIE II...as they do in America, and that would get over all the problems.......maybe. The Anglia certainly changed shape and everything else in the course of it's career, even getting a longer wheelbase if I'm not mistaken, so it should now be Fastback Anglia III.

[Jac Mac]

Im with Gerald on this one, Take for example the ex Fahey Capri.. it is now restored back to its original V6 Cologne Capri configuration & quite rightly so, but why couldnt Inky Tulloch build a copy of his V8- Muncie & 9" as per the OSCA car...two totally different animals I know... BTW I have already tried to convince Inky..no luck.. Like in my own case I could if I wanted build a Ford powered IMP like the one I used to race, but not either of the Cortinas because they still exist.... apparently because 'I' built it ' I' can build a copy if the original is dead and gone... anyone else who tried would have to be classed as a replica. There must be many cars that evolved & transfered from class to class over the years, some of which have been converted back to the 'most valuable' configuration, perhaps more in the pursuit of $$$ than any particular class for racing purposes.

Before we get all wound up with this perhaps we should really have started a new thread on the Topic rather than drift away from the Doyle/Dickie car , Steve if you wish to shift it & title it as something like 'Replicas & Copies 'its fine by me.

[RogerH]

I'm not trying to defend the decision that has (apparently) been made regarding the "Custaxie" - I was just trying to explain what I think has happened based on my interpretation of the MSNZ rule book.

However, I don't agree with the "continuous development" matter. If a car is running in an historic grid for saloons up to, say 1970, then it should be in the configuration it was or could have been in 1970. If it is modified with performance parts that were only available from say 1990 on, then it is really a 1990 period saloon in an old body.

The same thing applies to some of the historic single seaters I race. For example, one runs in a 1959/1960 period format and the rules require that I can only use components that I can prove were legal and available in 1959/60. My sons run period saloon cars - one a 1969 Cortina GT and the other a 1975 BMW 2002 - when we applied for the COD for these cars so they could run under MSNZ T&C regulations I had to prove that all major components were period. The Cortina runs a dry sump and I had to show through a Car & Car Conversions magazine article in 1968 that dry sumps were available through Nerus for Mk2 Cortinas.

In my mind the same should apply to the "Custaxie". If it wants to replicate the real Custaxie and run in the historic meetings in the 1960 -1970 saloon grid then it should be in the appropriate configuration. Otherwise (to take an extreme example) it could look like the Custaxie but have a sequential gearbox, 6 pot callipers, traction control etc etc.

By the way, I don't know what the current "Custaxie" has had done to it to get the officials upset - all I had heard on the "grapevine" was that it had non-period "improvements" that were performance enhancing and I suppose other competitors in the same grid who's cars complied to period got a bit unhappy that it wasn't a level playing field??

[AMCO72]

Yep Jac Mac, and there are more out there. Let us just say, that the NEW Custaxie is the ONLY car in NZ that can CLAIM to be THE Custaxie.

[bob homewood]

Im with Gerald on this one, Take for example the ex Fahey Capri.. it is now restored back to its original V6 Cologne Capri configuration & quite rightly so, but why couldnt Inky Tulloch build a copy of his V8- Muncie & 9" as per the OSCA car...two totally different animals I know... BTW I have already tried to convince Inky..no luck.. Like in my own case I could if I wanted build a Ford powered IMP like the one I used to race, but not either of the Cortinas because they still exist.... apparently because 'I' built it ' I' can build a copy if the original is dead and gone... anyone else who tried would have to be classed as a replica. There must be many cars that evolved & transfered from class to class over the years, some of which have been converted back to the 'most valuable' configuration, perhaps more in the pursuit of $$$ than any particular class for racing purposes.

Before we get all wound up with this perhaps we should really have started a new thread on the Topic rather than drift away from the Doyle/Dickie car , Steve if you wish to shift it & title it as something like 'Replicas & Copies 'its fine by me.

Steve, I think a new thread would be a good idea,keep the Doyle,Dickie rebuild and its follow up pure ,put everything else about replicas etc on another dedicated thread where we can all rant ,it certainly makes it a lot easier in future for people who search for a topic

[RogerH]

Like in my own case I could if I wanted build a Ford powered IMP like the one I used to race,

I think we are probably saying the same thing. In the case you mention about the Imp Ford, it's fine in my mind if one is built "like the one I used to race" - and I assume it could run in an historic grid for the period that corresponds to the time you used to race it. However, if you built up a car that externally looked like your old Imp Ford but it had a fuel injected Zetec motor, sequential gearbox and six pot callipers it would not be "like the one I used to race" and accordingly, would not fit in a historic saloon car grid for the period that represents the original Imp Ford - I suppose it would be more like a modern Clubman car?

[AMCO72]

So Roger, what we really have to do is find out exactly what is on the car now that was not available in period. I saw the car in a million bits, as I said at Teretonga, and to my untrained eye couldn't see anything 'modern' lurking in there.....no twin turbo-chargers, anti-dive suspension, formula one slicks etc etc. and the car wasnt as fast as the Renault Dauphine driven by Brett Stevens, which in fact just ate it. Which brings me back to a snitch on the grid. The cars are the stars ,so performance enhancing bits to increase it's chances of winning are pointless, but could be sensible safety wise. Robbie is a racer and naturally he wants to be at the pointy end of the grid so a few tweaks here and there are ok.....aren't they. Right, straight from the horses mouth.......Angus drove the car in 4 races at Teretonga and I asked him, Father to Son, as you do, what was it like. He said ....it had no brakes, no handling, ok horse-power, and you would need to be a BRAVE man to drive it at race speeds. I reminded him that he could hardly compare it with his NZ V8 Falcon, but he has driven all sorts of junk over the years so I respected his opinion. In fact the Custaxie was only slightly quicker, lap-time wise, than his old pre65 Morris!!!!!!

[AMCO72]

Yep, ok by me guys. I typed the last post before reading Bobs.

[fastback55]

Phew, just been down to Taradale to see the Steely Dan, Steve Winwood concert, really good, and interesting to see all the comments on the thread when I get back. Great comments from people who know. Interesting what Angus said, I bet the cars were dogs compared with newer cars. Alec claimed around 400hp from the motor Neil probably thought less in the early days, still a lot of hp in a short wheelbase light car, somewhere I have read 15cwt in Dickies day, it's not till you hop in it that you realize how small they are. One autonews magazine that I read from the time said that Alec had the fastest speed on the wigram straight, 127mph which was a few mph over the mustangs and camaros, but with mk3 zephyr brakes the car drifted back in the race as one could well imagine. I would like the car to be close to original but safe and I like the idea of the cars being stars not the egos of the drivers. I know bugger all about the rules and regulations and it's very interesting to me to see the remarks of people I consider legends who have answered this thread, thanks a lot.

[fastback55]

Thanks for the pictures David, they're all a great help.

[AMCO72]

50 and 55........I'm going to have one last go on here then Steve can shift all this 'impure' stuff somewhere else if he and fastback55 want to. I think this comparison with the Custaxie and others is valid on here, as all this comment just adds to the richness of the thread in the end. We are talking about 2 iconic cars of the decade, one running, the other not.....yet. As there were no COD's in those days there is no photographic proof of how a body or suspension looked other than in period race photos. The builder probably didnt have any plans either, it was all in his head.....designed and built as he went along. 'Suck it and See' technology....LAR.....'Looks about Right'. So fastbacks recreation of some parts is going to be how he thinks they should be, based on modern thinking, and without photos, whos to say he is wrong? Gregs Morrari is going to be in the same boat, and I will bet that Morrari II will be better [should I say more professionally built] than the original, if only as far as the quality of the welding is concerned. Why would anyone use blobby old gas welding, not much better than soldering sometimes, if done by amateurs, when a modern MIG will do the job so much better, stronger, and neater. I'm sorry but I cant see this fixation about the finished product looking exactly like the original...WARTS and ALL!! I'm sure the scrutineers will have something to say, and I havent noticed too many WARTS in the restorations I have seen. Beowulf will confirm that the chassis on his historic car was falling to bits....old gas welding, and he has had to get it redone the modern way. For a start, fastback55 will have to put in a MSNZ approved drivers seat and harness, so there you go, you are already starting down that road of improving and non-originality. We had all the original eating and upholstery for the Amco Mini but had to put in new seat and harness. Sensible, yes, compulsory, yes, but not original. In our case the list went on.....brake materials [not old DS 11], brake lines, fuel lines, fuel pump, tires, extinguisher, working lights etc, all none original, but in every case better, and necessary if you want to compete rather than just do demo laps. These old buses like 50 and 55 rely on brute strength and ignorance....literally. In those days everyone thought they knew what they were doing, but very few actually did. There is no substitute for CC's. Chuck on some BIG tyres to hide any handling problems...they were fairly large on 55! With 400 hp available on such a short unsophisticated body/chassis, you would have say that handling would be dodgy at best.....point the bugger down the straight and stand on the throttle!!! As bry5000 said about 55.......listening to it winding up down the back straight at Wigram.......music to the ears.

[RogerH]

I don't want to hijack the Doyle/Dickie thread and I think it is a good idea if these replica postings are moved to a new thread.

However, there are some issues with replicas that potentially could cause issues. With these "one-off" cars like the Custaxie and Doyle/Dickie Anglia, I think there should be no replicas allowed if the original car exists (even unrestored). If you owned the real car you would be a bit miffed if a replica that claimed to be your real car turned up on the same grid. Likewise, there should be only one replica allowed - do we want three replica cars all claiming to be the "Custaxie" turning up on the same grid?

What happens if a replica is built of a period "one-off" car and the original subsequently surfaces? I had a related issue a few years ago when I was racing one of my cars (an original period car) overseas and I found another car in the pits with period photo of my car on it's "skite board" which the owner claimed was a period photo of his car and that it supported his car's supposed period race history.

I agree with Gerald that modern safety improvements should be discretely adopted but I'm not supportive of performance improvements or so-called "reliability" improvements. In a class I'm involved in there has been much anguish internationally on modern "reliability" improvements. The story goes something like this : in period these engines wouldn't run over 8000 rpm but with all these modern bits (steel cranks, exotic rocker gear etc) they can now run to 10000 rpm and the modern bits should be allowed because if they weren't allowed the engine would break at anything over 8000 rpm so the modern bits are required for "reliability". The opposing view is that the regulations say all mechanicals should be a they were in period and if that limits the engine to 8000 rpm then so be it.

[AMCO72]

Actually RogerH, I personally dont think you/me/others are hijaking this thread, because the issues we are talking about directly affect the fastback-anglia No55, and other potential restorations. If anyone wants to look up stuff on this car, they can, without too much hassle. They may have to wade through a bit of 'stuff', but you never know, you may find out something you didn't know by doing so. If fastback55 is going to rely on posts from other enthusiasts as well as himself that DIRECTLY relate to the rebuild of the Doyle/Dickie car, discussion might get a bit thin on the ground, and this thread will be in danger, as someone else put it, of 'slipping down the pecking order' and ending up on page 9, and it is too good to allow that to happen. Up to you fastback55......your decision.

[105angria]

ILL throw in my 5 bobs worth and im dealing with Cams not Manz, my Triumph 6 powered Anglia sports sedan is now classed as group U I must pick a time /meeting and base the car on that period,there are a couple of areas that i have a bit of flexability with ,the seat,harness, and can add a side bar to the rollcage {but it still needs to be original material} stainless brakelines and hoses,all good, however not really allowed electronic ignition {turn a blind eye} and got hassled about poly bushes, im also allowed time to get decals right,in the course of rebuild the camshaft grinder was surprised the car ran with the cam it had so that was amended, {but how would they check that}so other than there being a question re how noisy the car will be its ok this was never a front running car but a surprising number or people have fond memories of it other than a one off cost for COD $680 it was all straight forward,

[105angria]

Further comment to the conversation re Replicas ,bry3500 and I were discussing how we loved the pre breadvan Corvette Anglia with the pipes through the bonnet,so what would be the problem useing fastbacks resource, to make a car thats clearly labeled as a replica, like Gregs Morrari, I personaly would rather see a well researched and conceived example of these iconic cars running around than not, put thomos VW Gardners Corvair Lefoes Imp The Triang the list could go on for some time,Ive been doing a feasability on the Lefoe Imp and constructors of the car thought it would be easy enough to replicate,but insist that it would require a front suspension rethink to stop it lifting its wheels,now i would be happy to build this just for display runs and display ,and more just for the hell of it and demonstrate how interesting things were back then ,If people could get over there insecurities ,imagine a field or replicas and reals running around ,then organise a trans tasman challange who would go to v8 supercars

[bry3500]

Further comment to the conversation re Replicas ,bry3500 and I were discussing how we loved the pre breadvan Corvette Anglia with the pipes through the bonnet,so what would be the problem useing fastbacks resource, to make a car thats clearly labeled as a replica, like Gregs Morrari, I personaly would rather see a well researched and conceived example of these iconic cars running around than not, put thomos VW Gardners Corvair Lefoes Imp The Triang the list could go on for some time,Ive been doing a feasability on the Lefoe Imp and constructors of the car thought it would be easy enough to replicate,but insist that it would require a front suspension rethink to stop it lifting its wheels,now i would be happy to build this just for display runs and display ,and more just for the hell of it and demonstrate how interesting things were back then ,If people could get over there insecurities ,imagine a field or replicas and reals running around ,then organise a trans tasman challange who would go to v8 supercars

A Trans Tasman Osca- Allcomers- Sports Sedan demonstration/display - run in conjunction with the F5000's would be awesome. Custaxie, Morrarri, Miller Dauphine, Breadvans ,Algie Alfa, Miss Victorious etc mixed up with the Lefoe Imp, Thommo's VW and other Aussie iconic Sports Sedans running around together would be a huge crowd pleaser. I'm with you Angria..I would just like to see these things out on the track pedalling hard..I really have no interest in who comes 'first'

[RogerH]

With the "Custaxie" I understand from someone apparently in "the know" that it wasn't refused a COD. Evidently, a COD application was put in and the MSNZ people went back with a few questions of clarification regarding the claim that it was a replica of the original car. From what I understand they have been waiting a long time and still haven't had a response.

[Steve Holmes]

Sorry for the slow responce guys, I've just started a new thread on the Race Replica debate, not just on the Custaxie, but on race replicas in general: http://www.theroaringseason.com/show...=6771#post6771

[fastback55]

It's good to see the discussion continuing regarding replica's, I suppose my feelings are that if the original exists, there shouldn't be a replica, but it's a free world and I've always been a rebel, and whatever one wants to do they can do. Regarding performance upgrades, where do you draw the line, a safer brake set up would be a real performance upgrade. Safety has to be paramount though as it would be a disaster to wreck an original car and circuit safety is always important. How do people feel about wide steel wheels, I like the idea of seeing a car on original type wheels and not mags when they were never on the original and the original diameter too as cars with 17" rims when they were on 15" just doesn't look right by me?.