The Race Replica Debate

[Steve Holmes]

Here you go, have at it boys! Kicking off with AMCO72s questions from the Doyle/Dickie Fastback Anglia thread on the debate over race replicas, and the NZ special, the Custaxie. This is a race replica thread, not just limited to the Custaxie, so go ahead and post your questions/arguments/answers on anything to do with people building and racing race replicas:

Does anyone out there actually KNOW that there is a problem with the Custaxie, or is it just 'pit talk'. The last time I saw it racing was at the 'Evolution Motorsport Classic Speed Fest' at Teretonga on the 20th of February this year. We were down there with the Amco Mini and Angus had the pre65 Morris. He had done a deal with Robbie at Ruapuna that they would swap cars at Teretonga. In the event Robbie did not drive the Morris but Angus drove the Custaxie. I think Robbie wanted Angus's imput as to how the handling might be 'improved', and to this end the car seemed to be in a thousand bits after each race getting 'improved'. I'm not aware of any events since that meeting that the Custaxie would run in, but there may have been. Also at that meeting there was a very nice Ford Escort RS that was 'reputed' to have 300hp under the bonnet, and that it was also having problems with COD compliance. But again this could have been pit talk. I raced around with this guy throughout the weekend, and if that car had 300hp then I'm 'a monkeys uncle', as my old bus has only 106hp at the wheels. So fastback55, I'm sure you will put the car back to 'as near as possible' to how it was, and as you say, ALL race cars change from one year to the next so who's to say what is correct.

The responce from RogerH:

My understanding with the "Custaxie" is that it is not a restoration of an existing period race car (like the Anglia in this thread) but an attempt to reconstruct a car that no longer exists.

If it wants to run at MSNZ events with a COD it does so under Schedule CR and it has two choices - either as a "Replica" or as a "Retrospective Special". If wants to be called the Custaxie then it should be under the "Replica" regulations which state " ... means a car built with the intention of replicating a vehicle that existed in any one of the period classifications. The car must comply with the applicable articles of Schedule K as if it was an original vehicle". Essentially this means that a car is constructed today to replicate an actual period vehicle in the configuration that it ran in period.

From what I understand the "Custaxie" has not been built to replicate what it was in period and changes and "improvements" have been made so it is a different animal from what the real Custaxie was in period.

The option that is left for it is for it to be a "Retrospective Special" which is defined as " .... means a car built for racing events which by its design, silhouette and manufacture has created a vehicle that could have been first manufactured in a previous era ...". However, this doesn't allow the introduction of non-period bits, for example, 6 pot callipers (I'm not saying the "Custaxie" has these). Additionally, it couldn't be called the Custaxie because it doesn't replicate what the Custaxie was.

There are people spending the time replicating period race cars, warts and all and if the car doesn't exit then it can be called what it was called in period. However, if the car does exist (even in bits) then someone can't come along and replicate it and give it the identity of the period car. I bet fastback55 would not be too impressed if someone built up an Anglia from scratch and put "55" on it and called it the Doyle/Dickie Anglia.

It probably all seems a bit bureaucratic but the Custaxie was a great car and it would have been just as easy to build it essentially as it was rather than try and "improve" it into something it never was.

[Jac Mac]

All comes down to who wants what...take the first single seater Begg V8, currently I believe in Daimler V8 powered guise, why shouldnt someone build it also in Chev V8 formatt, The Doyle car with original 'high' roof & sans fastback with stacks up thru the hood is another, There was the Fahey/Tulloch versions of the same car, where do we stand on replicas of say Cobra's, Daytonas, GT40's, Gran Sport Corvettes, D-Types etc..I mean real bolt for bolt stuff like Dave Brown builds down my way--not plastic fantastic sillouette stuff... not likely to see many if any of the original/genuine ones at these meetings anymore are we... the other thing we keep forgetting is anyone with these cars is going to pay plenty for the building/racing of them for absolutely no reward

[AMCO72]

105 Angria.......I love your comment that you made regarding getting your car OK'ed........was all straightforward except for the $680 one off cost for the COD. Flipping-heck. Glad I dont live in OZ, thought the $98 to MSNZ was bad enough. How do they justify such a figure for a bit of rubber stamping. And yes Jac Mac, we should be getting appearance money.....lucky to get a bottle of 'Chardon' for crossing the line.

[RogerH]

All comes down to who wants what...take the first single seater Begg V8, currently I believe in Daimler V8 powered guise, why shouldnt someone build it also in Chev V8 formatt, The Doyle car with original 'high' roof & sans fastback with stacks up thru the hood is another, There was the Fahey/Tulloch versions of the same car, where do we stand on replicas of say Cobra's, Daytonas, GT40's, Gran Sport Corvettes, D-Types etc..I mean real bolt for bolt stuff like Dave Brown builds down my way--not plastic fantastic sillouette stuff... not likely to see many if any of the original/genuine ones at these meetings anymore are we... the other thing we keep forgetting is anyone with these cars is going to pay plenty for the building/racing of them for absolutely no reward

Most of the historic racing clubs that I'm aware of don't accept newly created replicas - like the Cobras etc. I presume they are able to run at Clubmans type meetings.
The Begg V8 single seater raises and interesting issue. The original car still exits and up until recently was raced in both the Damiler V8 and Chev V8 configuration. Should it be allowed that someone can build a new one today and call it the Begg V8 when the original exits or if a facsimile of it is newly created is it termed a retrospective special and just called a replica period special. In my mind a car can only be called a Begg if it was built by George Begg. Its a bit like trying to call a painting a Picasso when it wasn't painted by him.

[Jac Mac]

Another bitch I have...there are a few... is the COD thing.. IIRC it took about three years for MSNZ to actually return the actual COD on one car that I had some involvement in, during that period the car was allowed to compete under a ''COD applied for'' basis, funny part was as soon as the COD had been issued they were asked to re-apply & list any changes that might have been made in those three years... more money for jam.. perhaps we/you should all wear open face helmets, throw away the Hans device & triple layer fire suits...if nothing else you will no longer have an excuse for running into the side of someones pride & joy & the lack of fireproof overalls might encourage some owners to take a more proactive interest in the preparation of the car, I for one am sick of finding stuff like fuel lines against header pipes, brake lines being pinched between suspension components...geometry that is tearing mount brackets out of chassis tubes.... all with multiple tech inspection stickers

[RogerH]

Another bitch I have...there are a few... is the COD thing.. ,

I agree that the MSNZ COD "story" is a sad inditement of bureaucracy. It probably started out with good intentions but the system failed along the way and it hasn't ended up achieving the intention of ensuring cars are "pure" to the regulations. There are cars that have CODs that shouldn't, there are cars that should have CODs that haven't got them and there are cars that have CODs but have changed in the interim to such an extent that they would no longer comply for a COD.
Most clubs don't require CODs as a mandatory requirement to race. The only benefit in having a COD (if you have a pre 1986 car) is that it allows you to use race gas. This is a crazy situation as it was never what the COD was intended for and the MSNZ race gas "ban" was a misguided crusade by some greenies within MSNZ staff - now departed.
I had to end up getting five CODs for my cars and the effort and cost was a joke - with my latest car I have avoided the whole system by getting a VCC identity form and a VCC log book which I understand are accepted by MSNZ and the whole process cost me $23 compared to MSNZ costs of $148.

[AMCO72]

I am just going through this COD thing right now with the Amco Mini. You wouldn't have thought it would be a problem. It's a well known car, has never 'disappeared', still has it's original body, and wheels, and upholstery, and most else, except of course the current engine. The new engine being assembled right now is even better......has the original Arden 8 port head, that had to be extensively and expensively repaired, and the original twin Dellorto carburetors. And I mean the original.... the head and carbs were the ones on the car in 1972. Of course with racing over many years things have worn out, been replaced, and some originality is lost ,inevitably. The alternative is the cars are showpieces. So the Mini is as good as you could get in originality terms..... it certainly hasn't been re-bodied for instance. My application is being 'processed' at the moment. Are you telling me RogerH that my VCC log book and COD allow me to race in,say, the festival of speed in January at HD. My understanding was that the VCC certification only applied to VCC events, other wise I wouldn't have gone to all this trouble in getting a MSNZ form. And if the VCC can issue a COD for $23, why does it cost 5 times that here for a MSNZ one, and 30 times that in OZ, for a rubber stamp. Doesn't add up to me.

[RogerH]

I am just going through this COD thing right now with the Amco Mini. You wouldn't have thought it would be a problem. It's a well known car, has never 'disappeared', still has it's original body, and wheels, and upholstery, and most else, except of course the current engine. The new engine being assembled right now is even better......has the original Arden 8 port head, that had to be extensively and expensively repaired, and the original twin Dellorto carburetors. And I mean the original.... the head and carbs were the ones on the car in 1972. Of course with racing over many years things have worn out, been replaced, and some originality is lost ,inevitably. The alternative is the cars are showpieces. So the Mini is as good as you could get in originality terms..... it certainly hasn't been re-bodied for instance. My application is being 'processed' at the moment. Are you telling me RogerH that my VCC log book and COD allow me to race in,say, the festival of speed in January at HD. My understanding was that the VCC certification only applied to VCC events, other wise I wouldn't have gone to all this trouble in getting a MSNZ form. And if the VCC can issue a COD for $23, why does it cost 5 times that here for a MSNZ one, and 30 times that in OZ, for a rubber stamp. Doesn't add up to me.

Gerald, the VCC option unfortunately only applies to pre 31.12.1960 cars so your Amco Mini will need to go through the much more expensive MSNZ COD system. With your Amco Mini COD I would have thought you would have no issues.
There is an agreement that goes back many years between MSNZ and VCC where each recognises each other's documentation. The matter with MSNZ fees is ongoing and there seems little correlation between the fee charged and the service provided. An example is the Trans Tasman Visa (TTV) which every Kiwi racing their cars in Australia is required to buy from MSNZ for $250 (and it only lasts for a year). The first time I fronted up at documentation in Australia with my TTV they asked what it was and said I didn't need it!! When I came back I asked MSNZ what I was getting for my $250 they said insurance cover (but CAMS provided that anyway!!) and I was then told by the MSNZ staff member that if I could afford to take a car to Australia to race then I could afford to pay MSNZ $250 for the privilege!!
I think both MSNZ and CAMS have evolved into bureaucracies and as such the fees you pay for anything is required to feed the system. On the other hand VCC is much more volunteer based and doesn't have all the "fat cats" and their fees are accordingly much, much more reasonable.

[GeebeeNZ]

This is a very interesting debate as I understand that the VCC will give a VIC to recently built period specials built out of period parts. Thus it has been possible for more than one C type Jaguar with Mk 7 running gear to be classified as a C type Replica and allowed to run in Vintage circuit events as a pre 1960 car. With enough time and money it is possible to virtually build a brand new model A Ford out of new parts. Many old cars are not really all that old.
The other thing that intrigues me is the reshelling of classic racing sedans. e.g. Is it really still the one that raced at Ardmore in 1957 Whatever the answer I still think that it is great that the Custaxie, V8 Dauphine, Coppins Zephyr Corvette Replicas are out there. As long as there is only one of them.

[bob homewood]

The replica issue is in some ways worrying ,most of the Saloon cars I have owned and raced have all disappeared ,most of them scrapped ,does this mean I am now free to go out and replicate all of them wholesale ? I mean I still have a pretty good idea in my head how I built them and what I used ,but consider how many people ever really took any notice of exactly of how and what I did ,who is going to challenge me on those issues ,please note I am only using this as a example of what I believe is wrong and leaves itself wide open to misuse ,also would this extend to at least a couple of cars I know off that were built but never really saw the light of day so as to speak

[AMCO72]

GeebeeNZ.......this business of re shelling classic racing saloons is a subject I bought up in another thread. We seriously considered making a replica of the Amco Mini and keeping the 'real' one safe. I shudder now to think that we even considered going down that road, but we did. Of course a Mini is one of the easiest of saloons to do this to, and we could have make a pretty convincing 'clone' of the car. BUT, then sanity prevailed.....whew, thank goodness for that. The biggest part of the enjoyment of driving that car is that you are thinking, when your roaring down the back straight at Pukekohe , with the rev counter hovering around 8,000, [ 129 mph by the way] and looking at all the dings and holes in the floor-pan, with the water pissing in if it is a wet day, that this old bus is THE very machine that was doing this in 1972 with Rod Collingwood behind the wheel, and I can tell you, it doesn't get much better than that. The replica probably would have done the job just as well, maybe even slightly better, but it would not be the same, and I would have felt like a bloody fraud!! You mention that you can build a Model A out of new parts, and that some 'Vintage' cars are not actually that old. I had a mate who built from scratch a 1924 Crossley 20/70....a very rare car in the world. He started with a chassis and front axle, and because the car was so rare the cost was justified. The finished article was as good as the original, he was a very clever engineer, but it wasn't a 1924 Crossley, was it.

[Jac Mac]

Bob, I dont see why not if you built & owned them, the problem as you state is how much 'creative licence' you use in building that replica, after all I assume you probably 'know' more now than you did at the time you built those cars & naturally would with the benefit of hindsight do some stuff different, I wouldnt think that would be a major problem, take for example if someone else fronted up with one of your old cars & asked you to help..would you leave it exactly as it was or make minor developements that might help it. In a perfect world that sort of thing would be self policing, problem is this avenue of motorsport is supposed to be 'country Gents' type racing, more about a brisk demonstration of the car rather than out n out racing.. many of the drivers still think they are 20 odd years old & bulletproof & once out the pit gate it is a free for all, what really worries me at times is how many look like they are about to have a stroke or heart attack at race end

[AMCO72]

Country Gents, my foot. The way some of these guys go past me is not very gentlemanly I can tell you. Talking about heart attacks, how many fat,sweaty old men do you see squeezing themselves into race overalls at the START of the race let alone when they are trying to disrobe at the end, usually having to get their girlfriends or wifes to help them extract their hairy bodies from the confines of the nomex!!!!Oh dear, too many hot dogs and chips I'm afraid. Thats why I got pissed off when I got a grilling going for my race licence. I think I am reasonably 'slim' and healthy LOOKING compared to some, but I will probably drop dead first......it's in the genes you know.

[bry3500]

i remember reading an article by the late and great Dennis Jenkinson regarding a fellow in the UK who was restoring a fairly poor example of a Bugatti type 35. It seems a lot of parts and panels were passed their use by date and he set about refabricating or buying replacement parts . The old parts were put in a dumpster behind his workshop. At some point he was a approached by a gentleman who asked if he could have the old parts if they were being disposed of, and our restorer agreed.
You can probably guess what happened...some time later , 2 Bugatti Type 35s turned up a meeting with the same serial numbers, history etc. Which was the replica?

[RogerH]

Talking about the late great Denis Jenkinson, he put out his interpretation on genuine, replica etc cars. Here it is :

In Denis Jenkinson’s book, “Directory of Historic Racing Cars – The Survivors-Genuine, Authentic & Facsimile, Jenkinson in his own words, “an attempt has been made to sort out the real from the unreal in order to try to retain a sense of proportion”. In doing so he complied a Glossary of terms to try and label historic and non historic cars.

Glossary of Terms

‘Original’ Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have had to have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes close to an original racing car as it is possible to get.
The ‘old-car industry’ frequently uses degrees of originality, such as ‘nearly original’, almost original’, even ‘completely original’ but all such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing car that has only had a few sets of tyres and a change of sparking plugs since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have remained ‘original’ such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles, and so on, and reproduction parts are made to ‘original drawings’ and ‘original material specification’, but this does not make them ‘original’ parts, nor does a complete car built from such components qualify as ‘original’, regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is nothing more than a ‘reproduction’ or ‘facsimile’.

‘Genuine’ This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous lives, with no occasions when they have ‘disappeared into limbo’ or changed there character in any way. Most E.R.A,s come into this category as they have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A as ‘Romulus’ is not ‘original’, as it has been repainted, re-upholstered, new tyres have been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine; but it is unquestionably ‘Genuine’.

‘Authentic’ This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered career through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from view. The ‘Entity’, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has always been around in some form or another, but has now been put back to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old Grand Prix car that was converted into a road going sports car when its useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine replaced by a touring engine, and eventually being allowed to deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank, new wheels made, new body-work, instrument panel, seat, upholstery and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the labours can justifiably be described a ‘Authentic”. There is no question of it being ‘Original’ and to describe it as ‘Genuine’ would be unfair to its sister cars that remained Grand prix cars all there lives, even though such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due to the ravages of time and use.

‘Resurrection’ Some racing cars when they reached the end of their useful racing life, were abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still scattered about. There have been numerous cases were such components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a new car; a new chassis frame and a new body were required and, from the bare bones or the ashes of the original, another one appears. It cannot claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an authentic car. At best it is a ‘Resurrection’ from the dead, or from the graveyard.

‘Re construction’ This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection to the original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left over when decomposition set in.

‘Facsimile’ Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model, for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at best it could be a “replica” of the four genuine cars, but such a situation is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real thing. Other facimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built. The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous owners, who first convince themselves they have brought a genuine car, and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the paying public are gullible.

‘Special’ This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he is racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one. The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car, by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean that the car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally accepted as ‘Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or a facsimile’.

‘Duplication’ This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an incomplete car as a ‘basket case’ and with the left hand sold an incomplete car as a ‘box of bits’ The two buyers eventually found suitable second hand components to replace the missing parts, or had new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand prix Bugattis were there had only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club- and the majority of it’s members-strongly disapprove of this practise. Unfortunately the disease has spread too many other makes, especially those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business borders on fraud.

‘Destroyed” A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in recognizable shape or form.

“Scrapped” This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to recreate a new car. In no way can the new car be describe as genuine. If the factory scrapped a car and removed the number from its records, then that car has gone forever, and a nebulous collection of old and new components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped numbers.

“Broken up” Similarly if a factory records that a car has been broken up, I should mean exactly that. It has gone for good.

“Converted” There have been examples of a type A model being converted by the factory into a type B and then into a type C. The particular car as an entity never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognise that the type C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car back to a type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in 1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well documented continuous history, and is as genuine as they come, but it can never revert back to R4B.

[Howard Wood]

Hard to argue with those definitions. Its also hard to argue against replicas, as long as they are described as such and continue to be described as such. From the replica pre war Auto Unions to the Custaxie, the historic race car scene is better off with these cars especially where the original no longer exists.

The FIA HTP or MNZ COD system is not there to judge if a car is genuine or not but whether the specification is period correct. That surely is what is important, if you build a car to the correct specs, say Sched K in NZ, which frankly is not a cheap exercise you want to be able to play with similar cars, not some hot rod with carbon fibre, sequential 'box or a later engine.

My experience with getting a Sched K logbook for my BMW Alpina 2002 Replica was actually quite simple and I would be very suprised if the Amco Mini for example would not be the same. Only difference is the Mini will always be THE Amco Mini.

[RogerH]

There are cars like your superb Alpina 2002 which is built up from a real car and is a replica of a documented car. Gerald's Amco Mini is another example.
However, the cars like the Custaxie are potentially another story in that they are presented as a replica but they aren't actually a replica of the car they are meant to replicate. They may look like the original car at 20 paces but internally they are "improved". This is where the problem lies. If they are "improved" then genuine cars in an historic grid are aggrieved because they have gone to the trouble of doing it properly and they want to, as Howard says, "play with similar cars, not some hot rod with carbon fibre, sequential 'box or a later engine".
On the other hand, the "punters" just want to see some action and aren't too concerned whether the cars are hot rodded or not. There is a place for these cars but it probably isn't amongst a grid a genuine cars or accurate replicas??

[Howard Wood]

Couldn't agree more Roger.

The nice thing from my perspective is that there seems to be a move towards "doing it properly", just look at what Dale Mathers and HRC are trying to do with their NZ Muscle Car regs and the matching thread on the Camaro transformation from hot rod to "proper" race car.

If enough people take the effort there is no reason why us pedants and "the punters" cannot both be happy, being period correct does not mean the car should not be used as intended.

[Kiwiboss]

Great topic guys!! we will all never agree on the "Replica" race car debate, just too many variables!!! but one thing i've learn in my overseas(mainly USA) travels is that us Kiwis are our own worst enemys!!! and it comes down to the nature of the beast and im just as bad!! first is "cost" so OK i have this!! want to build a Custaxie(use as example) replica dream because i remembered it as a kid, what is the most least expensive way i can achieve this, its usually a compromise of using modern avaliable parts, a 5 speed supra gearbox is cheaper than trying to find an old "say" Jaguar gearbox, etc and on and on it goes until one day when finished, shit i dont think it is a custaxie replica anymore, oh well not many will know and the "punters" will see the Silhoutte and think it is anyway, job well done!!! so to me its really several things, the state of our economy, our small market, and what you can do youself(with mates helping) but don't get me wrong we need these replicars, recreations, etc, where as in America(a market i kinda know) and American with a healthy cheque book will pay someone(usually a kiwi living over there) to build him a 100% replicar, and when i say 100% i mean 100%!! infact the attention to detail can be amazing, and has amazed me over the years!! now these guys are usually the first to hold there hand up and say hey its a replica, but the value in it is in the attention to exact detail, and the physical COST to build it in todays market, something that just can't be done economically for personal use in NZ. and thats usually why all the exact replicas built in NZ(D type Jags for example) are paid for by some overseas guy and shipped offshore when done!!! and offcourse the reason behind this replica building is usually the original is horrifically high priced at even a replica gets good money to a common man such as myself.

So, all im trying to do with our little "Historic Muscle car" class is to get similar thinking owners to build/rebuild reasonably acurate replicas of a certain era in saloon racing(usually from 66 to 78) as close as possible(with compromises) and go "Historic" racing for only one reson, FUN!! and yet have vehicles that you can identify with when in the pits!! without a doupt the most spectacular "Silhoutte" old saloon class in NZ is Central Muscle cars, they pull the "punters" and most watching couldn't care less, infact im sure some are watching just to see the crash and bash, but to me and others when viewed in the pits they are really just "Sports Sedans" my American mate sumed it up when he raced with them at Taupo, "NASCAR in old cars" but in NZ this group is SO very much Kiwi that its hard to break the cycle and would NEVER live in other Vintage/Historic motorsport country's. As for HMC, well, im just trying to do my little bit to push along my choosen hobby with the knowledge i've learnt overseas, time will tell, but i do have some very good backers.

RogerH, luv the Glossary of Terms!! just so correct.

Bedtime

Dale Mathers

[AMCO72]

Howard......we can all relax. Got my COD application approved and issued with a K classification, and because it is THE genuine vehicle can apply for a Historic Vehicle Passport through the FIA. Got 2 fancy little stickers to place near the competition numbers on the doors, so is all good.