AMCO72, good news, that wasn't hard was it. Now get out there on the tread mill and rowing machine to get rid of all your worry lines.
I wonder what i face with my rebuild. It is Original (panels) and Genuine ? I will be intersted to find the ruling on roll cage as i would like to Add 2 bars for safety. Does this mean a whole new cage ? If so maybe she can wait awhile.
Thanks Rod. And no, it wasn't too bad. I'm such an impetuous bastard that I expect things to be done yesterday!! Stuff this treadmill thing....walking to the gate to get the mail is about as much as I can manage, and all the trips to the letterbox lately to see if my COD had come, amounted to several miles, so that should do! We had a similar debate about the original roll frame in the Mini, which was just a very simple affair. Angus decided that he would start again, and get it homologated, and as he is a certified roll-cage builder was no problem. So good luck with your build and hope to see the car out soon.
Interesting debate, and one that doesn't really have a right or wrong answer. I like Rogers post with the various Jenks explanations. For me personally, I don't have an issue with replicas being built, if the original car no longer exists. But if a replica is to be built, I think it needs to be as exacting to the original as possible, warts and all. To build a replica when the original vehicle is gone is to bring back to life, as much as possible, the essence of that car, all its quirks, good and bad. So to build an improved version of it doesn't make much sense to me. But you know what they say about opinions and arseholes! Thats just mine.
The one thing thing that can't be recreated when building a replica is the character, and the sense of history. I love race cars with history, you can almost see the ghosts rising up off them, of the people that have raced them, the people that have worked on them, the tracks they have raced at, and the crowds they have entertained. I once drove Robbie Francevics GTHO Phase III. It had been fully restored when I drove it, but for me it was buzz to be sat on the seat where Robbie sat his arse (OK, it had been reupholstered, but you get my drift), holding the same wheel Robbie held, when he slid that car around Bay Park or Pukekohe. When Gerald climbs in behind the wheel of his AMCO Mini and stares out the windscreen, he knows the battles his car has endured, and the history and lives his car has come in contact with over its 40 plus years as a race car. Thats the one thing you can't replicate or recreate.
But hey, accurate replicas, if built true to the original, can allow people to gain an appreciation for the original car.
It never used to worry me that much, but at the recent Muscle car masters at Eastern Creek, there were so many replica's of famous Touring cars that I thought it was getting a bit too much.
If a car no longer exists, then perhaps a replica could be built (but not allowed to race against cars which are the genuine article, and only able to run in regularity events, demonstrations etc), but it all got too much when TWO identical Peter Brock Marlboro VK Commodore touring cars turned up for demonstration laps.
Perhaps a register of replica cars is needed so we don't end up with multiple examples of a car which is no more.
Absolutely true Steve. What is especially nice in our case is that not only do we have the car, but also to two guys responsible for it's creation. Rod and Dave worked long hours in Daves' garage in 1969/70 getting this machine up and running, and on a pretty tight budget. The rest, as they say is history. We all got together for the first time in 39 years at the Bruce McLaren festival, and it was quite an emotional meeting. Dave Panckhurst had been in on the rebuild for some time, and has been invaluable insofar as he has given us tips as to how they did it originally, and has attended a number of race meetings as our Honorary mechanic, being with us at both Skope and Teretonga early this year. During some demonstration runs at the Bruce McLaren, Rod took me out in the car and talked me round a lap of Puke as he used to drive it in 1972......a bit slower I have to say!!!!! Was rather amusing, when we were about half way down the back straight he was looking for a 5th gear......he had forgotten what 8,000 in a Mini sounded like, and he used to regularly rev it to 10,000. It all made me feel part of a very special team.
Do I sense a consensus that a today built replica of a period unique car should be as close as possible to the configuration and look of the original car without modern "improvements" and that no such replica should be allowed when the original still exists or if it doesn't exist and there is already a proper replica in existence?
Certainly my feelings Roger. What happens then if at some stage in the future the orignal turns up? After all there are still lost cars turning up!
I suppose the replica would need to change it's identity if the original subsequently surfaced. For example, if a proper replica Custaxie was made and then the original car (or enough parts of it to reconstruct the real thing) turned up, then it would be the real Custaxie and the replica would then be described as something like the "Ford Customline Special".Originally Posted by Oldfart
What if someone wanted to build an earlier version of a car ...let's say the Doyle Anglia for example, without the chopped roof , reshaped guards and fastback..would that be kosher?
Last edited by bry3500; 11-10-2011 at 06:52 AM.
I like the idea of being able to do that..The PDL Mustang is built now as 'Electric Blue', but why not another as ex Fahey-non flared with 15" minilites.. Rod Coppins Camaro in Winfeild? non flared dress...but I do think it should be as close as possible to its overall configuration for 'that' point in time....however, that is also a double edged sword...some of these cars had 'engineering or basic design faults' built into them at the time of which the constructor concerned was possibly not aware of...where do you draw the line on that sort of thing... I know in my own case I just fix the problem... then the car if I have done it right ends up being a bit faster or better to drive...and yes then you get some crusty old bastard that remembers exactly how it was built originally poking his nose in & start telling you that is cheating...cant win with some people
Does it really matter, I reckon there are more replica 'Allan Moffat' GTHO's than most others, This HMC class that Dale & Co are trying to get up & running will likely end up having cars painted up like Smokeys Camaro, Bud Moores Mustang, Donohues Camaro etc, I hope they do anyway & the more they reflect the technology of that time the better & if someone comes along with a 'Williment' escort to keep them honest- great.
Last edited by Jac Mac; 11-10-2011 at 07:04 AM.
Yes its interesting ,one car I owned raced in its time with three different brands of engine , with and without a roof chop and in my time had a completely different front nose ,thats six variations of the one car you could recreate ?.my Toyota raced in two different body styles,and I guess I am free to recreate the mk2 Escort I had once as there is no way it is coming back ,strange if we are not careful ,we will end up with more cars than ever raced
A bit like the Mk1 Lotus Cortina - of the 3306 built, over 5900 still exit today.
What was the thing/things about the Custaxie, it obviously put some nose's out. So what were the differences. Lets get this out in the open, as it has obviously upset someone. Alot of work went into this vehicle, and involved alot of people who were there at the start, so lets air the difference's.
It seems to me only certain vehicles seem to get "Replicated" those from an era where they created a bit of there own history and mystique, and that live in the mines of ones dream to own(but never will) the real car!! probably just how i see it but thats why i race my dear ol Mustang, 14 years old hanging though the fence at Baypark watchin Jim Richards cain the sidchrome Mustang around the track, open exhaust, etc set me thinking "I gotta get me one of those" so years later the original can't be bought oh not a problem i'll build me own!! not that im trying to past my orange mustang of as a Sidchrome replicar, im just living the dream on what it must have been like to race back then!! my Mustang as with most these days has modern technology added, it just can't be helped, wilwood brakes are cheaper than finding and buying the original parts and they last longer, along with other items but to me atleast i went someway to making sure my racer still "has that Vintage look and feel" that the car should be, EG: a Mustang with certain major correct parts still fitted!! and as Jac Mac say's we at HMC are trying to replicate an era in over 3L Saloon racing with replica looking cars because lets face it, they aint no way here in NZ we will ever get all the original cars(Mustangs, Camaro's, Pontiac's, Falcon's, Monaro's) back on the track racing together. But then there are other Mustangs racing in the Central group that have big modern air dams, fibreglass doors, fenders, high scoops, aluminum engines, the list goes on, but i guess to there owners they are living the dream in there own mines as well, and they must be otherwise why would you even bother!!! so thats why at HMC we have decided on a set of rules and boundaries where they must "Replicate that era" to beable to race, especially anything visual like body work, hidden items like Wilwood brakes, Dog gearbox, etc we can live with.
And as we haven't had a race yet, i guess time will tell?
Dale Mathers
Last edited by Kiwiboss; 11-10-2011 at 09:03 AM.
I don't know all the specifics but I understand that what happened was that a COD application was put in for the "Custaxie" on the basis that it was a true replica of the original car - it needed to be this to be able to race in MSNZ historic events as a Schedule CR Three car (Replica Saloons up to 31.12.1977). The application form was evidently not comprehensive and some basic clarifications were asked of the applicant along the lines of its built format being consistent with the original car (I presume clarifying that it was in fact a true replica). From what I understand, no response to these questions was ever received back from the applicant so no COD was issued.
I suppose interpretations of the lack of response could be that the "Custaxie" was not in fact a replica but something that just looked like the Custaxie from 20 paces or that it was not in replica period format but was "improved" with modern performance enhancing components.
It would be interesting to find out what the differences actually were between "Custaxie" and the original car.
Have a good look if you get the chance and you may not find too much "modern" in it. At 2 paces it still looks very much like the original set up to me, and I am only going off what i remember and photos from past. I would have it at a guess, and it is only a guess that the people involved have had there fill of paper work over the years, and as they are not running the car to win a farm most probably can not be bothered with the paper work as each bit of paper has $'s attached. Another point is, Who knows how the original was built. Robbie and Tony were the original builders. Another factor is Robbie likes his golf.
Actually thats a good point, as it raises another question about what I call 'tribute cars', ie, cars which race and have copied the colour scheme of a historic race car, but nothing else. There are quite a few of these racing in the various muscle car racing classes; eg, Coppins Camaro in its Cambridge livery, Chickadee Commodore, Penske Javelin, HDT Marlboro Commodores and Toranas, Moffat/Geoghegan 1973 Bathurst winning XA Falcon hardtop etc etc. I quite like these cars. The owners aren't trying to pass them off as the originals, they're just paying a sort of tribute to them. There are also several red and gold MkI Escorts that race at historic events that have copied the Alan Mann paint scheme.
Roger, thanks for posting the Jenks guide to historic categories. Amazing that it reads so well today with the recent proliferation of cars across the little guy's classes! Thanks to Jenks of course for everything!
The NZ saloon class has dominated this thread as one would expect, from those early monsters of ingenuity which way predated the Custaxie, to the HMCs being fettled for next January and beyond. May I just introduce another example of interest to some of us kids of the 60s/70s - the 1968 McLaren M8A "restoration?" project, near completed in the hands of Duncan Fox on behalf of the Bruce McLaren Trust.
I have traced much of it's history (with Duncan and others) and documented on video major stages of it's rebuild, with comments recorded from Duncan and others who were there in '68. That's as close to building racecars as I have ever been - just a dyed-in-the-wool enthusiast! I am passionate that what we, as enthusiasts, see at historic/vintage race meetings is categorised and classified accurately. I feel a need to know whether this is a faithful reproduction, a rebuild, or that rare "original".
Back to M8A/1. A small piece of original fibreglass was put into the bodywork (or moulds) of the new incarnation as I understand it. One of the bulkheads (rear?) is repaired but most of the chassis and all the alloy skins are new. A number of mechanical components have been saved or found from the original. The chassis number tag defines it's pedigree. It's history after it's glorious winning of the CanAm series of 1968 with Denny at the wheel is - errr.... chequered. Excuse the pun! Motschenbacher raced it, crashed it, modified it, and eventually via GoodYear it came back to NZ via Denny, Motat, Northern Sports Car Club, to the BMT.
My point is that the Jenks rule seems to place considerable worth on this type of reincarnation (or what ever term you care for). I do too, for no other reasons than;
It represents a glorious piece of NZ's international motor racing heritage
It's one of only 3 McLaren M8A's built and will always be the only one in existence from this point on
Many of us 60s/70s kids only ever saw these amazing cars in photos.
I am interested to hear other people's reflections and opinions on how something like this car sits in the world of historic racing, especially in terms of validity. Does it's historical importance and rarity make any difference to it's modern day existence? What are informed fans of international historics likely to say for example if/when M8A/1 turns up at the Goodwood Festival of Speed and Revival meetings?
We all come from different sectors of the historics wheel. Constructor types may consider anything that has required much "interpretation" to build back to it's present state, as less than totally valid. Or is that more arbitrary in line with how well researched and executed the rebuild was? I certainly was blown away by this research aspect to the 21st century M8A with the huge photo archive, old plans and conversations from Bruce McLaren Motor Racing personnel.
A grid full of genuine CanAm cars of the era is not just a possibility but a reality, I must get to Elkhart Lake one day! Without good discernment of "values", grids like this would either not exist or would have no value to the "true" enthusiast.
(Steve, I don't know whether this belongs with the context of this thread so feel free if you think it could form a new thread to do so.)
These comments just represent my own opinions and concerns and a precis of what I have gleaned from Duncan Fox about his project. I am prepared to be corrected on matters of detail wrongly reported. I'm really interested to hear what others think on some of these issues. Good health to you all and keep the wheels turning!
Muz
Last edited by Murray Maunder; 11-10-2011 at 10:57 PM.
My guess is the M8A is 'authentic' in terms of Jenk's descriptions. I doubt that its provenance could ever be challenged, there is probably more research gone into this project than any other.
On the subject of tribute cars described above by Steve, I am a little uneasy about these. While the owners intentions are probably well placed, some of these cars are just so different, yes it may be a Camaro of the same year, but nothing really at all like the original apart from the livery, which in some cases isn't correct either. I wonder a little in some cases it is a chance to run in tobacco livery under the pretext of replicating an original car or having a tribute car. And, it is going to get even more silly when an original car is restored and you also have tribute cars looking the same from 100 metres away. I guess it is still a free country and I just have to accept it, but I don't have to agree.
Pallmall, I tend to agree. Tribute cars are well meaning attempts to honour a favourite of the past but can give a false impression on track as their racing characteristics tend to be nothing like the original. Sound, performance, handling should ideally be only slightly an improvement on the glory days, for example 585HP F5000 cars (or whatever they make these days) reflecting ongoing inprovements in metallurgy etc.
It's an interesting argument if kept friendly but I can imagine could become very heated in the paddock between car owners.
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