Widebody S4 Lotus Seven

[Oldfart]

Hi all,


I am aware of that CAMS has nothing to do with NZ! so what you are saying is that Steel Bros Sevens were only allowed to be called Lotuses in NZ. Is that correct understood? You are also saying that Australian CAMS (our national body) know absolutely nothing about the Steel Bros Seven! Isn’t that what Trevor calls slander?

No this I by far my first contribution (if you must know!) but instead of changing my old profile which contains all my personal details such as e-mail address I have made a new one. I do not want persons like Trevor to have my e-mail address (for obvious reasons may I say).

Cheers,

John

John, it is not, nor was not, my intention to "slander CAMS". I was curious as to why CAMS would have any mention of the Steele cars in their rules at all. I don't even know if they were exported. (Nor do I care).
As for a "lynch mob"! We obviously have different slants to reading, I read it and still do that Mike had made comments re the rights which Steeles did, or did not have to call them Lotus. Trevor made a comment that I felt warned Mike about making such comments, no more. You interpret that differentlly.
I agree with all the parties who actually care, that someone needs to "put up or shut up". That can be either Mike with documents to show that Steeles were acting illegally, or someone in NZ showing that there was some agreement. Of course the chances of finding something at the UK end would be nigh on impossible, even if they did exist in the time. That means that the only option is at the NZ end, again if those records still exist, after all how many years ago was the operation closed down?
I re-iterate, AT THE TIME, NZ had numerous visits from Lotus staff, surely action would have been taken rather than the tacit support which was shown?

[zakspeed65]

Hi All,

I have been reading this thread with interest and a little disbelief!!

I am quite passionate about Lotus 7 cars, having restored a couple of Series 2 a Series 3 and a Series 4.

It is quite well known here in NZ that Steel Brothers did in fact build these cars, if the did or did not have the OK from Lotus (which I am quite sure they did) this many years on it will be very hard to get to the bottom of the real story.
Colin Chapman was great at doing deals, with many parties!! Talking to him to get the real answers is not going to happen.

The rest is as they say "IS HISTORY" Debate all you want, even say things you may regret, but the fact remains you will never know the true story. Well not 100%.


Cheers,

Gary.

[Rod Grimwood]

John, CAMS over the years have not recognized a number of vehicles from NZ, as is their right.
Cossie/Mike, The "Mother Land" (GB) is also not the only country to have produced or still have certain makes of cars. There is a bit more to NZ history than being discovered by a explorer as a "little island" in the Pacific (actually 2 little islands). Been there done that on another thread.
Being involved in a wee bit of documentation over the years, “They (Steel Bros.) used the Lotus name on their cars but that was never approved by Lotus.” is a statement.

A lot is answered by Neville Milne and Zakspeed65

[Trevor Sheffield]

As my input and the essence of my complaint is becoming somewhat buried, I again repeat:-

You (Mike --- ? ) made this direct statement --- “They (Steel Bros.) used the Lotus name on their cars but that was never approved by Lotus.” What is more you included significant associated asides, all of which damages the goodwill of Steele Bros.

I trust the intelligence of readers to carefully read your posts together with statements by Paul and myself and come to logical conclusions.

At this point I restrain from more aptly worded comment. However I do call for an apology, particularly towards Steels Bros. and without attendant qualification and or sarcasm.


Let it be clear that I have made no threats, but I certainly have made accusations which still stand and the name of Steele Bros remains maligned.

Sincerely, Trevor.

P.S. As I have stated, Steele Bros. would not publicise if they were not entitled to do so. Please go here and refer history, period 1970 - 1980 for the facts:-

http://www.steelbro.com/en/about-us/history.html

[markec]

Is the next thing to be discussed, that all the CKD's that were assembled in NZ, not genuine Fords, Humbers, Rovers or Vauxhalls.

[AMCO72]

I have been re-reading this thread from the start, as I was wondering why there was all this passion for such an ugly car. [your words Paul] Just to defuse things a bit here, could I ask someone what these things sold for when new? I remember when they appeared on the market, and wondering, who would willingly part with money to be seen in 'THAT'. Charlie Conway traded one on a Pantera....'a de-tomato-sauce' as we used to call them, and I'm not sure who got the better deal, but Charlie was a pretty shrewd character and knew his 'motors'. By all the comments I have been reading, the car was a complete dog, that required lots of mods from owners to get it right.....for track use anyway. Maybe Chapman and Co never intended it to be a race car, but should have guessed that it would be pressed into service. My knowledge of these things has taken a huge leap since Paul started this thread, so lets just move on, as we will NEVER know the true story, as dealing with the likes of Colin Chapman and Co, was as frustrating as duct-taping eels to a greasy pole.

[aussiemonza]

Hi Trevor,

Why do you keep attacking Mike and create a bad environment here with all your threats about legal actions??

This is a CAR forum for exchanging information and should not be used as your personal platform for vendetta or boredom.

Apparently I have to choose my words carefully here or you will probably also threaten to sue me too.

Here is a Section from CAMS:

”Note: Only Lotus built cars or Lotus kits assembled by Steel Bros (NZ) are elgible for classification in this group. Later cars built by Steel Bros commonly known as “New Zealand 7” with altered mechnical and body specifications, are not elgible. Please refer to notes in addendum to this sheet.”

Question: Why are these Steel Bros Sevens not eligible if they are Lotuses as you claim?

Let’s close this discussion and move on.

Cheers,

John

Hi John,

What is the context of the CAMS section? Is it to do with the eligibility of Steele Bros Lotus S4's for Group D Production Sports in the late 70's - early 80's?

CCC

[AMCO72]

Paul, your car doesn't look too bad. Maybe some seat covering and a bit of carpet, and she would be ready to shoot the breeze. What state is the engine in if it hasn't been run for a few years? I think I would be tempted to have some fun in it. Might be a long time before the house is paid off!!!!!!!

[Binzy1]

Hi John,

What is the context of the CAMS section? Is it to do with the eligibility of Steele Bros Lotus S4's for Group D Production Sports in the late 70's - early 80's?

CCC

It was probably because CAMS knew that the later Steele cars had the 907 engine, wasn't exactly the best design for a race engine, so made the rule to avoid oil spills and associated bits left lying on the track from them when went 'bang' from being thrashed.
I feel safe saying this as have read plenty about 907’s as have one in my Steeles/Bainbridge '7' (daren't try getting away with calling it a Lotus now given the discussion here - lol).
Lindsay

[Jan]

Hi All,

It looks to me that with the exception of Mike I am the only person in this forums thread who resides outside NZ. Therefore I am not wearing the same “rose tinted spectacles” as you are!

However click on the following link and you can see that not all your citizens agrees with your statements in this thread: http://www.lotus7.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1537

I also believe that your conduct and behavior is appalling to somebody who just tries to piece the authentic Lotus 7 history together. Nobody has actually assisted him in his inquiry regarding Steel Bros Seven production numbers, chassis numbers, widebody models and so on.

It seems it is paramount to most of you to protect local interest instead of getting the authentic Steel Bros Lotus Seven history out whatever that may be. One thing is for sure threatening somebody with legal actions instead of helping them are not going to change anything.

I am not saying that Mike could not have worded his sentences differently here but then again so could Trevor. Also I do not know Mikes English language skills (no offence Mike) but this should be a forum that accepts anybody who makes a contribution as long as the tone is reasonably sober. The only treats I have seen here are the ones Trevor made.

I believe that this discussion is just going to continue in a non productive manner so I am retiring from this thread for good now. So “over and out”

Cheers,

John

[Oldfart]

John, thanks for that link.
I find it interesting that it mentions in a number of places the agreement with Lotus/Steeles as being legit. Certainly the later cars were a different kettle of fish, I don't think anyone has shown any issue with this, or perhaps I misread this. I guess we will never know.
As I previously said, proving this either way now, 35 years later would be nigh on impossible.
Without rancour, what was the CAMS issue?
Rose coloured specs, actually I have always abhorred the S4!

[Binzy1]

However click on the following link and you can see that not all your citizens agrees with your statements in this thread: http://www.lotus7.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1537

Ha - history repeats!
That's Paul & I, from this Forum, having a discussion (debate?) on that Forum about bits & pieces of information that we had gleaned around the Lotus/Steeles etc history within NZ. We are a small & proud country and this was an interesting time in NZ motoring history and I guess keen to protect the reputation whilst glean more information as to our cars.
Lindsay

[cossie]

Hi All,

John, you have nailed this subject right on. I am glad that someone can see through what really is going on here. I do understand why you have elected to stop writing here; it is not worth the aggravation of being threatened to be sued. However I believe that you (in your haste?) generalized a little bit. Paul Wilkinson has been very helpful.

It is apparent that for some New Zealanders like the Trevors, it is more important to protect national interest than getting the actual documented facts (whatever they may be) out. However following is taken from Lotus Club NZ:

“they (Lotus) weren't thrilled that Steele’s had been using good old Kiwi ingenuity to keep building as ‘Lotus’ badge way beyond”

"The cars that are not strictly legit as far as I know are the ones where Steel Bros started arsing about with the body shape/dimensions and engines etc. They happily slapped Lotus chassis plates on them”

I HAVE NOT written the above mentioned Trevor, so no reason to bring the “artillery” out this time. However sometimes there is no smoke without fire. This doesn’t actually mean anything, ooh for heaven sake no

An overprotective mother who always claims that her teenage son is an angel even though the Police just took him stealing. I am not comparing anything here OOOH no

To Trevor the "self-proclaimed judge and executor" in this forum. I have now edited my contribution so it now has absolutely no meaning to anybody. A certain manufacture is now called “Company X”. A certain human interfaced device on wheels is now called “Company X 7”. A certain country of the Trevors is now called “A country close to Australia”. I sincerely hope that this cannot offend anyone now.

All I initially wanted was “a good yarn” about the “Company X 7”, especially how many made, VIN numbers, Super 907 Etc. It has never been my intention to offend, insult or slander anybody. I don’t even know “Company X” so I have no opinion about them. Somebody wrote that they paid their bills on time. That has absolutely nothing to do with this issue and honestly I politely don’t care.

Finally it was Trevor who started the threats against me as John so correctly has observed. I am sorry if some people from “A country close to Australia” can’t see that. Trevor how much research have you done on the Lotus 7? You are good at making treats (and demands) but apparently nothing else. I have no respect for people like you.

So have a nice life because I am also signing off now. I am doing this Lotus 7 research in my spare time and I have now wasted enough time on – actually almost nothing useful! Researching history supposes to be fun and entertaining, meeting nice people Etc. Not the harassment and aggravation I predominately got here. John and Paul, I did not mean you. You two guys have been helpful and constructive.

Somebody once said: “Why sore with turkeys when you can fly with eagles” so I will do just that.

This is the first time I have been threatened in a forum on the Internet.

John, by the way, what the heck is cams? Please drop me a PM.

Best Whishes,

Mike

[Neville Milne]

What an odd series of exchanges this has been.
In those days, many NZ based manufacturers had agreements with over-seas suppliers of technology or materials; the company I represented had such agreements with the Associated Engineering group, in the UK and the Cleveland Graphite Bronze Co, in the US., to name just two.
In neither case were 'letters' or correspondence retained after the period required by the Companies Office...7 years, as I recall.
At that time those letters had no special significance, certainly none that was historical and the space required to store company records, ad-infinitum, would have been considerable. I am sure there was a similar requirement in other countries, including the UK.
For those very practical and legitimate reasons, I would be VERY surprised if any commercial correspondence still existed between Chapman and Steel Brothers, or Chapman and anyone else for that matter........such correspondence would be a very odd exception to what was then, the way in which business was conducted.
Therefore one is left to consider each company and each company's commercial reputation, in it's entirety. Having had direct knowledge of Steel Bros, I CAN assert that they were solvent; adhered to whatever agreements were made with the company I was employed by; and had a reputation of producing well engineered and well made products. I have never had direct commercial dealings with Lotus, apart from having the misfortune to own an early Mk1 Lotus Cortina.
Neville Milne

[AMCO72]

Do you know that every time I sat down at my computer to check on the latest casualty from 'The Gun-fight at the Steelbros Corral', I fully expected our friend in the UK, New Zealand's foremost motoring historian no less, to wade in with the AK47, and blow everyone away. When the dust had settled, he would give his usual well measured, well researched reply, and the survivors of the shootout would emerge from behind water troughs and bars to fight another day. But sadly, no. I think I shall just retire to the bar myself and see if I can join a game of cards, with my back to the wall of course!!!!!

[Carlo]

Do you know that every time I sat down at my computer to check on the latest casualty from 'The Gun-fight at the Steelbros Corral', I fully expected our friend in the UK, New Zealand's foremost motoring historian no less, to wade in with the AK47, and blow everyone away. When the dust had settled, he would give his usual well measured, well researched reply, and the survivors of the shootout would emerge from behind water troughs and bars to fight another day. But sadly, no. I think I shall just retire to the bar myself and see if I can join a game of cards, with my back to the wall of course!!!!!

Care if I join you for a quiet Speights and a hand or two ?

[AMCO72]

Carlo....be my guest.

[Oldfart]

I just wish I had the sanity to not have posted what I thought was a reasoned, and intending to moderate reply! Don't like Speights, can I have a Beam?

[AMCO72]

Yep, drinks are on the house....Pauls new house. I think we all deserve one [or two] after that hammering. I was checking the site at 2am in the morning, to see the latest casualty, after I had pointed Percy at the Porcelain!!!!!!

[Trevor Sheffield]

Hi All,

John, you have nailed this subject right on. I am glad that someone can see through what really is going on here. I do understand why you have elected to stop writing here; it is not worth the aggravation of being threatened to be sued. However I believe that you (in your haste?) generalized a little bit. Paul Wilkinson has been very helpful.

It is apparent that for some New Zealanders like the Trevors, it is more important to protect national interest than getting the actual documented facts (whatever they may be) out. However following is taken from Lotus Club NZ:

“they (Lotus) weren't thrilled that Steele’s had been using good old Kiwi ingenuity to keep building as ‘Lotus’ badge way beyond”

"The cars that are not strictly legit as far as I know are the ones where Steel Bros started arsing about with the body shape/dimensions and engines etc. They happily slapped Lotus chassis plates on them”

I HAVE NOT written the above mentioned Trevor, so no reason to bring the “artillery” out this time. However sometimes there is no smoke without fire. This doesn’t actually mean anything, ooh for heaven sake no

An overprotective mother who always claims that her teenage son is an angel even though the Police just took him stealing. I am not comparing anything here OOOH no

To Trevor the "self-proclaimed judge and executor" in this forum. I have now edited my contribution so it now has absolutely no meaning to anybody. A certain manufacture is now called “Company X”. A certain human interfaced device on wheels is now called “Company X 7”. A certain country of the Trevors is now called “A country close to Australia”. I sincerely hope that this cannot offend anyone now.

All I initially wanted was “a good yarn” about the “Company X 7”, especially how many made, VIN numbers, Super 907 Etc. It has never been my intention to offend, insult or slander anybody. I don’t even know “Company X” so I have no opinion about them. Somebody wrote that they paid their bills on time. That has absolutely nothing to do with this issue and honestly I politely don’t care.

Finally it was Trevor who started the threats against me as John so correctly has observed. I am sorry if some people from “A country close to Australia” can’t see that. Trevor how much research have you done on the Lotus 7? You are good at making treats (and demands) but apparently nothing else. I have no respect for people like you.

So have a nice life because I am also signing off now. I am doing this Lotus 7 research in my spare time and I have now wasted enough time on – actually almost nothing useful! Researching history supposes to be fun and entertaining, meeting nice people Etc. Not the harassment and aggravation I predominately got here. John and Paul, I did not mean you. You two guys have been helpful and constructive.

Somebody once said: “Why sore with turkeys when you can fly with eagles” so I will do just that.

This is the first time I have been threatened in a forum on the Internet.

John, by the way, what the heck is cams? Please drop me a PM.

Best Whishes,

Mike

I apologise to those who by now must regard the points now being made as trivial, but as my name is being continually and repeatedly publicly denigrated by a hidden non identity, I must execute a right of reply.

(1) Yes, regardless of their nationality, I find it important to protect others and organisations against incorrect derogatory allegations.

(2) It was stated by way of an insult in post #74 ---”They (Steels Bros.) used the Lotus name on their cars but that was never approved by Lotus”, i.e. an absolute, unmitigated statement of fact without qualification and based on hearsay.

(3) I call on readers to please carefully examine my initial post #81 in full, whereby I was carefully courteous and did not in any way attack the tender footed “ ‘cossie’ Mike”, or threaten litigation as has been continually claimed. I posted as follows:-

“You are stating that Steel Bros. were operating illegally. Provide proof or desist from distributing slander, you could be judged liable.” i.e. I recorded no more than a robust clear statement and request, together with clear advice suggesting caution. N.B. I did not state “otherwise I will have you judged liable", or make any threatening inference as is here being continually, stupidly alleged.

(4) I also ask readers to note the incessant sarcasm and the tone of the replies directed towards me and in particular this gem. “Put your word where your mouth is my friend, and if you are right and I am wrong – I will eat my words and write here that I was wrong.” Please refer post #85, i.e. my tempered reply to this nastiness,

(5) Mike ---? has not desisted and continues to brow beat with concerted efforts, to prove that his statements which damage the good will of Steele Bros. remain accepted as correct. He obstinately continues with this diatribe, now quoting, presumably as absolute evidence, off the cuff comments by Lotus Club N.Z. stating. “They (Steele Bros.) happily slapped Lotus plates on them.”

(6) A direct and personal attack, again including ego driven ongoing sarcasm, has now been made against me as follows:-

”I HAVE NOT written the above mentioned Trevor, so no reason to bring the “artillery” out this time. However sometimes there is no smoke without fire. This doesn’t actually mean anything, ooh for heaven sake no

An overprotective mother who always claims that her teenage son is an angel even though the Police just took him stealing. I am not comparing anything here OOOH no

To Trevor the "self-proclaimed judge and executor" in this forum. I have now edited my contribution so it now has absolutely no meaning to anybody. A certain manufacture is now called “Company X”. A certain human interfaced device on wheels is now called “Company X 7”. A certain country of the Trevors is now called “A country close to Australia”. I sincerely hope that this cannot offend anyone now.”

(7) It is proclaimed that evidence has now cunningly been removed, notably without honestly completing the reasons why detail by way of disclosure. In spite of this, evidence remains clearly reproduced throughout the thread, whereby the name of Steele Bros. has been placed in jeopardy.

Obviously no apology is forthcoming. The required testicles and intestinal fortitude being sadly lacking. However let it be clear that, in spite of of a great deal of bovine manure excreted from a confirmed steer in hiding, Steele Bros. are reputable and remain innocent.

Sincerely, Trevor.

Sorely proclaimed, "Threatening, demanding, self-proclaimed judge and executor" but even so, is happy to soar with kiwi turkeys.