The cost of safety is a relative thing. When told that Vintage racers on a circuit had to wear fireproof underwear or double layer fire retardant overalls many vintage racers managed to find fireproof undergarments at a Army Surplus store much cheaper than Nomex so safety isnt always expensive.
While I am certainly not old enough to understand what the engineers might have been thinking on these pre 1945 cars, my guess would be that chassis flex was not something that was actually DESIGNED into these these cars, but rather just a by-product of the way they were built. Or perhaps I am wrong, and the engineers/constructors thought a bit of flex was good? Sure they will handle differently if made stiffer, but like all things, when a change is made (in this case torsional stiffness) to work properly they would need setting up again with different spring rates, geometry etc.Originally Posted by GeebeeNZ
Of course the word 'handling' when referring to old cars is relative. A better term is 'road-holding'. Adjustment of beam axles, front and back was very limited, and in fact as Bob Homewood will tell you, to get better road-holding, you plonked on a set of BIG tyres and hoped for the best. All this did in most cases was to increase the unsprung weight, and often made the situation worse. I dont think the designers of old chassis, built in flexibility, it just happened, because of the way chassis rails etc were put together, and coachbuilders had to mount their bodies in such a way as to minimise the flex being transmitted to the body, which in the early days had a wooden frame. Was only when the likes of Citroen's L15 came along, and perhaps others in the USA, that body ridgidity became possible. So I'm not sure that roll-frames on beam-axle cars does make a big difference to the road-holding, and in almost all cases the tyre grip will be the limiting factor as to how a car 'holds the road', so that if big tyres are fitted the car, instead of the car getting itself into nice controlable slides, or drifts, it just starts to act all cranky and completey destroys what little 'road-holding' it had. I tried a similar experiment on my 1935 Jaguar SS1 by fitting modern larger section tyres with much more grip, and it just destroyed the way the car 'handled' when pushed. When you watch the VCC boys racing their old Austins etc that are sliding all over the place you wonder why they dont fit bigger tyres. I suspect they have tried, and it doesn't work.
Conrad, you could also fit a sequential 'box to your lovely M3 and improve your lap times in the process but that isn't going to happen, right!
Gerald is absolutely right, with very old cars, change one thing, eg fit stickier tyres, and no only will the "improvement" be marginal at best but there can be an unplanned flow on effect such as wire spokes breaking.
Which brings us back to the topic, any safety or technology improvements to old cars not only have to be in keeping with the looks and spirit of the car but also actually increase the safety levels not detract from them..
Howard, I had forgotten the wire-wheel issue. Any vigorous cornering would almost certainly end up with buckled wheels, especially if you lightly brushed the curb, and this was made worse by the sticky-ish tyres. I think that with technology today we have an advantage over the old days......better wheel bearings, crack testing components, much better machining etc, and I would like to think that a present day restorer of a car being used in VCC events and others, would take advantages of all the improvements available. But as someone pointed out, the origin of some of these parts is dodgy to say the least, but if that is all that is available, your stuck. We had a CV joint, of unbranded manufacture, seize on the Mini during the Festival....down the front straight at 130+ MPH......a very unpleasant and dangerous happening. Fortunately there was no one else around me, as the car was heading for the wall, and there could have been a nasty pile-up. We now use good second hand CV's for 1100's made in Canada, and I feel much happier, and we also use a very special industrial grease, far better than the crap that comes with a new kit. As is being pointed out by others, we not only have to ensure our own safety, but also the safety of other competitors, and I hope we are all thinking the same thing, as things can go horribly wrong in a fraction of a second. Sometimes I think that the best safety precaution that we can employ is 'less lead in the right foot!!!!!
The wire wheel issue does cause problems. The 1959 Taraschi FJ still runs it's original Borrani wire wheels (4" wide on the rear and 3.5" wide on the front). The chassis and suspension is all original. However, the effect of running the designated historic crossply tyres (Dunlop L CR65) is enough to result in broken rear spokes - for some reason usually after running at Taupo. The CR65 is not a sticky tyre by a long stretch but it is evidently more grippy than the period tyres and the extra grip results in broken spokes.
Jac Mac had some interesting things to say about race-car safety that he noticed in his capacity as scrutineer. Some very dodgy engineering practices way back then. Shouldn't happen nowadays, but you never know. Perhaps Jac Mac can refresh our memories and expand. The original comments were back in Yards & Yarns, page 8, about thread No 148, and concerns wheels, and the strength, or lack of it , in them.
http://devour.com/video/vintage-race-car-crashes/. Our now PC society seems to get its knickers in a knot when the boys go out and do something enjoyable, but having said that, how many drivers grow horns when they leave the dummy grid and all rational thoughts are left in the pits.Whether we like itt or not there have to be regulations regarding safety and to adapt 1 set of rules to cover all types of car that were built over a 80 year period is not going to find favour with every body, common sense should prevail but it won't.
The link to earlier accidents shows a need for some control.
funny you mention that!... I did have a nice Holinger sequential box from my last M3, and sold it and bought the correct Holinger H pattern box for this car, just for originalities sake........
Yes markec, we have to ADAPT one set of rules, rather than ADOPT one set of rules. To make any sense at all, rules for the older cars, and here lets say pre61 as that is a class of its own, are necessarily different, or parts of it, from rules for later cars. Most of the components will be similar or the same, but things we have been discussing, roll-frames etc will be different. Would be nice to think common sense will prevail, but common sense today is increasingly absent from discussion. Would be nice to think that we on this forum could put forward some sensible ideas, thrash it around, then have it adopted, instead of having some little clerk somewhere making a decision based on some knee-jerk reaction to an 'incident'.
Having said that, lots of things changed for the better after the LeMans crash in 1955, as they did in the Paris-Madrid half a century before. In the LeMans case, drivers reactions were as quick as humanely possible. In the matter of driver reaction there are other considerations than the actual time taken to move a foot off the throttle and apply the brake. One is the time it takes for the brain to appreciate the situation, the primary reaction, which starts the secondary. At LeMans in front of the pits that evening, Hawthorne, Fangio, and Levegh were covering the ground at around 200 ft per second, and even virtually instantaneous action can do very little about that, even if the instinctive reaction is correct. Reaction must not only be swift, it must be right. So if these guys couldn't get it right, what hope is there for a bunch of geriatric drivers like us....well a lot of us. So safety on the track not only involves the cars and their preparation, but also the drivers and their fitness, or otherwise ,to act and react in a proper and correct manner. Did I remember to take my heart pills this morning, or in the excitement of anticipating some thrilling competition, forget them? More on medical matters soon!!!!
Food for thought and debate. ---
I enjoyed motor racing when it was for real, e.g. First over the line was the winner and if you did not remain on a defined circuit it was accepted that you were very likely to hit something. When it became sanitised I went sailing. I had a second attempt at gaining satisfaction from what was once sport. I retired for good, laughing.
My great grand child recently gained fourth place racing a motorcycle and after a spill and getting back into the race. He is Four years old and I am sure he would be prevented from climbing anything while at kindergarten. LOL
Enjoy, Trevor.
[QUOTE=AMCO72;12006, When you watch the VCC boys racing their old Austins etc that are sliding all over the place you wonder why they dont fit bigger tyres. I suspect they have tried, and it doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps because that is part of the fun? If you are "sliding all over the place" you have passed the limit of adhesion, even if it is only at 50mph (note the mph, not km/hr) that's how fast you can go!
The moderns can slide and skid too, but they don't. Apart from drifters and SVG on a spectacular victory lap.
In the latest "Classic Driver" magazine there is a photo I had not seen before of Red Dawson's huge prang in the Monza, the car looks as though it is 6 meters off the ground and we all know what the result was.The beginning of the end for Red, so if safety measures are put into place that will limit the likely hood of that sort of incident happening again, it must be a good thing.
And indeed oldfart, that IS part of the fun. As I said, the old SS Jag, which quite frankly had hopeless road holding at the best of times, turned itself into a nasty piece of goods when shod with 'good' tyres. I used to have a whole heap of fun at Baypark with the old girl, especially round the big sweeper, tyres howling in protest, in my efforts to keep up with people. It is reported in one of the early TACCOC magazines, that I was visibly gaining on a TR6!!!! All I can say in my defence is that the TR6 driver couldn't have been trying very hard. Here again speeds are relatively slow, certainly compared to how the Mini would have gone round there. It is actually possible, I think, to have MORE fun at slower speeds, like the Chassis Racers. Some time back I wrote about Rowan Atkinson driving a Fergie tractor at 20 mph across a paddock with sheep as mobile chicanes. Slow, yes, but what fun can be had at 20 mph. If you are on the track with fast cars, you want to be fast as well, whereas if there are slowish cars round you, you tend to fall into the prevailing pace, and the last thing you are thinking about is roll-over protection and race harnesses. Medical safety coming up.
OK, it's Good Friday......hot-cross buns and other 'healthy' things to eat, so perhaps a discussion on personal health as it affects motoracing might be in order. I'm not sure when a medical becomes compulsory, if in fact it ever does, but at the moment, answers to certain questions on the application form trigger a red alert at MSNZ HQ and the interogation starts. The medical itself is a very comprehensive document and covers just about every malady known to man, and it's aim is to satisfy the MSNZ doctor that you are fit and able to conduct a race car at racing speeds. Your personal GP also has a say, but so long as you have a regular driving licence, he is unlikely to give you a bad report. If you have been going to the same GP for number of years, 40 in my case, he will have a pretty good idea of you general state of health, and this is where I start to have issues with MSNZ. Their official Doctor has never seen you, and knows nothing about you apart from the answers you and your GP have provided on the form, and this is the only criteria he uses to give you a tick or not. Frankly I dont think MSNZ should have any say in a medical, but I guess there could be some Doctors who would give you a favourable report with a little bit of persuasion, though it is difficult to fake an ECG. I have seen enough fat, sweaty bodies emerging from the Nomex to make me a little concerned as to the fitness of the driver. Unlike when travelling on the open road, where no medical is necessary, we on the track are all travelling in the same direction, concentrating very hard, and are strapped in like fighter pilots, and in the event of a medical incident, will, we hope, just drift into the Armco like Denny at Bathurst. Unfortunately medical incidents can rear their ugly head without warning and this inspite of examinations. I dont think I will be going for another one, after the dramas which you read about on Y & Y, after my last one......I think my blood pressure hit 200/100 during the interminable wait for the document that said I was OK to drive. Probably, sensibly, no one over 70 should be driving a race car; we should all retire gracefully and become flag marshals instead, and maybe get a spot of knitting in between races!!!!
Just received the latest issue of Victory Lane (US vintage racing mag) and there is an article about vintage tyres by Phil Lamont, a race tire distributor. He reports that his company does not offer super soft compounds for vintage racing (unlike some other suppliers) preferring to stick (pardon the pun) to harder Dunlop 204 compounds. To quote Phil - "in most cases they are not slower, they are often more driftable and allow the car to corner in the manner it was designed to do". He also opines that the softer tires "can stress older suspension pieces and designs".
Amerikiwi
Take a look at a Sprint or a midget car. There are Knee Guards to protect your knees/pins from banging away at the steering box. Simple and works well. Good luck with your quest
And there Amerikiwi you have it in a nut-shell.......'in most cases they are not slower, they are often more driftable, and ALLOW THE CAR TO CORNER IN THE MANNER IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO. With the SS on the 'better' tyres, it was neither fish nor fowl. It wanted to grip but couldn't, or made a half-arsed attempt at doing so, and every time the rear stepped out, once it let go, it was all over, rather than being in a nice controlable speedway type drift. Will be watching the boys at the Roycroft festival next weekend with renewed interest.
Gerald, you tell Kenny he's past it and should retire, I agree that some of the bodies that are peeled out of their Nomex cover's are less than healthy looking, but are probably within the medical requirements. I like you take medication for a couple of disorders, including blood pressure and know I am now longer fit, but in my case my length precludes me from fitting into a race car so that issue has never arisen.Mental health is an issue that is not covered within the competition licensing medical, perhaps it should be.
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