The State of NZ Motorsport.

[screwdriver]

Needless to say, any new structure as above will not be of any advantage to the Classic & Historic fraternity, arguably one of the strongest sections of the sport with the least support. TV yesterday - great Muscle car grid. Can't say the same about either Utes or NZ V8s. If they can't even manage 15 cars on such a high profile (international) event, they need to look elsewhere for support classes.

Heck, they (initially) had over 40 (interesting) entries for the Roycroft pre 1945 sports car grid. Whilst the average one eyed Holden/Ford supporter may think that they are rather pathetic, there are plenty of others who would have had their eyes opened.

[Trevor Sheffield]

Goodness me Mr Trevor Sheffield. Fancy you posting on a Forum under a pseudonym. After your outburst on the 'username' thread, post 15, I am beginning to think that you may be full of "bovine manure", and not necessarily "carefully contrived". And as post 96 on this thread is' so subtle that it has gone completely over my head', could you please explain the 'applicable phonetics' in the pseudonym 'Noble Kiwi'.

The recent Herald article exactly confirms what I carefully pointed out in my post #96. I am not concerned that obvious facts involving common business sense fly over the heads of those that assume they are bigtime.

I say again, "the individual sportsmen involved in NZ motor sport by default, are paying for and even worse are indemnifying the cost of promoting of a commercial product." What is more, without any hope of enjoying any profits which may accrue as a result the use of the capital they have risked. By contrast those involved in administering the free funds can have a ball.

No bull,

Trevor

[RogerH]

The recent media release by MSNZ is, I fear, part PR hype, part re-packaging of the same old product and part an addition of some new components.
The directors (and presumably the bulk of the management) of TMC move across to the new entity and the concerns of principle have not changed one bit.
Among the issues is the question of whether the concept of MSNZ being commercially involved in promoting "Tier 1" is in the interests of member clubs (and by association, competitors) - is the financial and resource input by MSNZ really in the interest of historic and classic motor sport competitors who make up a significant proportion of the NZ motor sport fraternity?

[grelley]

We are all currently paying for TMC. A number of years ago when TMC initially got into financial difficulties with the NZ V8s, all competition licences were levied around $50 per year. This extra levy has never been dropped.

[screwdriver]

The directors (and presumably the bulk of the management) of TMC move across to the new entity and the concerns of principle have not changed one bit.

Positions that don't seem to be voted on by those who pay the annual fees, so yes Roger, you are 100% correct and I hope that conference attendees jump up and down and make some strong noises.

Maybe we should all lobby the Vintage Car Club to accept all classics (even the marginal ones), and then we could organise and race under the VCC banner rather than MSNZ? It would be totally feasible and commercially a lot cheaper for all of us, as not only would the licences and logbooks be cheaper, but race entry fees could drop by at least $25 and we'd probably get even more drivers into the fold!

I suspect that many of the VCC members would like to come out and race more than once a year too, so we might have far more interesting race meetings.

Only people to miss out would be MSNZ hierarchy, but their work load and expenses must also drop. Users pay.

[PaulieG]

I like how they pipe on about having the support of the nzv8s, rather pointless really considering the effect the Supertourers are having on the class. SuperTourers have double the cars of nzv8s and I never saw the likes of Murph, Scott Dixon, Tony Kanaan and Alex Davison come over to race a nzv8. Drop the political BS and just do whats best for the sport! not what some douche behind the scenes wants to do just to get one up on someone else. I'm sure its the same in other countries, but this is NZ, we dont have access to 4 million people in one city, to get the crowds like overseas. I wonder if you took the spectator count at the supertourers and took it as a percentage of the population in..lets say a 100km radius of the track..., I reckon they would be up there with the rest of the world. No science behind that just pure speculation. I just want to enjoy motorsport!

[jim short]

I surgest you take your idears to the ten tenth forum and perhaps you should join manz and show how to do it rather than drag this foram down jim short

[RogerH]

I surgest you take your idears to the ten tenth forum and perhaps you should join manz and show how to do it rather than drag this foram down jim short

Jim, you are of course entitled to your views (as is everyone else) but I struggle to follow your rationale for wanting to close this thread as it purportedly drags this forum down. This forum deals with both historical motor sport and current historic and classic motor sport (for example, the Roycroft thread). There have been a number of posts questioning what the MSNZ/TMC structure does for the historic and classic competitor and accordingly I believe that at least those aspects of the thread are relevant to this forum.

[Oldfart]

Positions that don't seem to be voted on by those who pay the annual fees, so yes Roger, you are 100% correct and I hope that conference attendees jump up and down and make some strong noises.

Maybe we should all lobby the Vintage Car Club to accept all classics (even the marginal ones), and then we could organise and race under the VCC banner rather than MSNZ? It would be totally feasible and commercially a lot cheaper for all of us, as not only would the licences and logbooks be cheaper, but race entry fees could drop by at least $25 and we'd probably get even more drivers into the fold!

I suspect that many of the VCC members would like to come out and race more than once a year too, so we might have far more interesting race meetings.

Only people to miss out would be MSNZ hierarchy, but their work load and expenses must also drop. Users pay.

It is not that the Vintage Club would not like the classics, it is an agreement with Motorsport precludes that.
Your next statement about racing more than once a year is not accurate as there are quite a few events. At this stage only 2 circuit meetings in the North Island but more other events than is poss for most of us to attend, numbers of hillclimbs where the 1960 date is not enforced, as that date relates only to circuit meetings.
Remember most of these meetings are staffed totally by volunteers, and they have lives too!

[GeebeeNZ]

What a load of weasel words we have in Shane Harris's press release. We can all see throught the new company as being more of the same and it will be interesting to see if they bring their balance date into line with Motor Sport NZ and report their financial results to the M Sport AGM. As for employing Brian Lawrence to promote NZ V8s what a waste of members money. Unfortunately for MSNZ the V8 Supertourers is now the premium V8 category and whatever the legalities or whether you like Mark Petch or not it has happened and one day motorsport is going to realise that promoting NZ V8s as a tier one class is a dead duck. Its like CART and Indy Car all over again and the only way for it to gain strength is for one class to come out of it. As for Shane looking after the shareholding circuits well we all read that as meaning we wont support Hampton Downs. What a disgrace. It has been mentioned that the VCC should extend its date and include more classics. This is not up to VCC who have tried this but MSNZ will not allow this at any cost so VCC is currently going along with 1960 to keep some form of harmony. We dont want the stuation to get back to where it was a few years ago where MSNZ virtually banned the VCC from competing on any circuit in NZ. The VCC has come a long way from then as was demonstrated with the Roycroft Trophy. I know that Jim Short had his son and grandson competing in the NZ V8s today as was Geralds Son but Angus like most of the top drivers has seen the light and moved on. No disrespect Jim but MSNZ clearly has to get its act together and pooring money into a dead class is not in the interest of its membership.

[stirlingmac]

What troubles me the most about the NZV8 vs ST is that the concept was an NZV8 one and had the collective brains that were originally entrusted with it's development stuck with the the plan they would have been onto a winner,and there would have been no division. NZV8s had right idea unfortunately it appears some of the people entrusted with its development were'nt trustworthy....

[PaulieG]

What troubles me the most about the NZV8 vs ST is that the concept was an NZV8 one and had the collective brains that were originally entrusted with it's development stuck with the the plan they would have been onto a winner,and there would have been no division. NZV8s had right idea unfortunately it appears some of the people entrusted with its development were'nt trustworthy....

I did read about that, and while it may be so, supertourers are here regardless I think just get on with the racing and show the world we are a unified front, not torn into little pieces, while I thoroughly enjoyed the nzv8s in their time, someone had to do something.

And if people don't want to read others opinions, maybe stay off threads like these.

[GeebeeNZ]

Racer Rog suggested we go to the MSNZ AGM and with our clubs support have our say. The structure and funding of MSNZ is an interesting one. A few years ago I was a member of 3 clubs and each club paid a capitation levy for me. Yes 3 times for 1 person and yet I had no voting rights. The only contact MSNZ has with its wider membership is with those who have racing licences and yet the majority of members that MG, Alfa, etc pay for never race. Clubs get one vote no matter how many members they have and clubs whose main focus is Rallying can vote on historic matters and vice versa that is why it is so hard to get sometings changed. A dozen of us are thinking of forming a club becoming afiliated to MSNZ and having a vote. Strangely we would have the same status at a MSNZ AGM as Auckland Car Club and the Alfa and MG clubs who have large memberships. There has to be a message there. Not all democracies are truely democratic.

[PaulieG]

Racer Rog suggested we go to the MSNZ AGM and with our clubs support have our say. The structure and funding of MSNZ is an interesting one. A few years ago I was a member of 3 clubs and each club paid a capitation levy for me. Yes 3 times for 1 person and yet I had no voting rights. The only contact MSNZ has with its wider membership is with those who have racing licences and yet the majority of members that MG, Alfa, etc pay for never race. Clubs get one vote no matter how many members they have and clubs whose main focus is Rallying can vote on historic matters and vice versa that is why it is so hard to get sometings changed. A dozen of us are thinking of forming a club becoming afiliated to MSNZ and having a vote. Strangely we would have the same status at a MSNZ AGM as Auckland Car Club and the Alfa and MG clubs who have large memberships. There has to be a message there. Not all democracies are truely democratic.

How many people needed to form a club? You could quite quickly have enough clubs to swing a vote either way! It is a rather strange system really.

[GeebeeNZ]

I guess you need 15 to form an Incorporated Society under the Incorporated Societies Act 1908. That would give it some credibility.

[PaulieG]

Just thinking, would a ballot system work, where each club collected votes etc so every payed up member has a voice? or is it as simple as an online poll?

[GeebeeNZ]

I dont think you will ever change it, MSNZ likes it as it is. Getting money from someone often more than once and not letting them have a vote probably suits their ideals.

[Trevor Sheffield]

How many people needed to form a club? You could quite quickly have enough clubs to swing a vote either way! It is a rather strange system really.

N.B. The Constitution of Motorsport includes Rule 5.1:- Motorsports membership shall comprise of clubs who are interested in automobile sport and who are accepted by Motorsport as its members.

[richard lester]

Racer Rog suggested we go to the MSNZ AGM and with our clubs support have our say. The structure and funding of MSNZ is an interesting one. A few years ago I was a member of 3 clubs and each club paid a capitation levy for me. Yes 3 times for 1 person and yet I had no voting rights. The only contact MSNZ has with its wider membership is with those who have racing licences and yet the majority of members that MG, Alfa, etc pay for never race. Clubs get one vote no matter how many members they have and clubs whose main focus is Rallying can vote on historic matters and vice versa that is why it is so hard to get sometings changed. A dozen of us are thinking of forming a club becoming afiliated to MSNZ and having a vote. Strangely we would have the same status at a MSNZ AGM as Auckland Car Club and the Alfa and MG clubs who have large memberships. There has to be a message there. Not all democracies are truely democratic.

this has been the issue down through the years-who gets to vote for what.
in my lifetime in the sport i still remember well when Morrie Chandler and my father were President and Vice President of manz(for 20 years).--as it was then.
they took the reigns and we didnt have date clashes for major events and we had rally people deciding what was best for rallies and circuit people governing the tarmac series in conjunction with the tracks and classic/historic enthuasists entrusted with their disciplines as well as trials/hillclimbs etc etc being tended by the people involved.
give the job to the correct person sort of deal..
what happened???.
now its a shambles and dis jointed and with so so little trust.
everyone is bagging everyone else and honestly nothing will be resolved this way -emotion has well over ridden common sense.
a structure or re structure is required for sure..
the MG(example) car club should not be voting on what happens with the summer motorracing series as much as the capri car club(example) should be voting on things to do with the rally championship and the NZIGP be voting on classic historic issues.
maybe dont bag MNZ as a whole and work to put some structure back into the various classifications and let the right people work with their areas of expertise and passion..
MNZ hierarchy are not all criminals who need to be hung -drawn and quartered as made out on various forums.some are out of their depth for sure but specific structure needs to be addressed far more than sacking the lot and re introducing the death penalty..........
between this forum and ten tenths things are getting pretty ugly and personal and as per usual being blown out of all proportion.
the various gripes and vitriol on the forums at present are not new and i have spent many a dinner time listening to what the current complaints are(or were) ,but nowadays these are way more personal.
if some of you actually re read some of the threads and stopped to take it all in you may see things a little clearer.....or diferently.
i mean how long has Shane Harris been at the helm--1 term?????? and he's worthy of walking the plank.....seriously...!!!!!
personally i have been a racer/team manager/team owner/driver trainer and coach,parent to a current racer and spent many years chasing the sponsorship dollar and grown up with parents running a circuit as well as being heavily involved in MNZ and the summer series etc etc..i have never seen the sport so muddled with so many people thinking they know whats best and pushing their barrow really hard.
in reality most of you actually dont have the big picture in sight--tho you think you do-----just your particular interest which has become very all consuming.
now i guess i am open for a tongue lashing....

[GeebeeNZ]

Richard, I think its great that people like you who have some credibility in the Motorsport scene can see the same problems that a novice like myself can see. We need more people at your level to raise these issues and hopefully MSNZ will take a good look at itself and see that there are currently problems at mill.